Can Salvation be lost?

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You asked for scriptures about preserverence of the saints, which was my position, that true saints will be preserved by God. I gave you some. You refuse to interact with them. Here are some more:

Psalms 37:28

This is in reference to the faithful saints in their final state in the end.
It is not proof that a once saved believer cannot fall away.
Also, verse 9 says evil doers will be cut off. So these saints who are preserved forever, and not forsaken by God are those who are faithful saints until the end.

For God commands a church:

“be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.” (Revelation 2:10).

“Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him” (James 1:12).

So we have to endure temptation to receive the crown of life. These are the ones who truly love the Lord. They are the ones who obey Jesus, and do not justify sin in some way.

But Eternal Security or Non-OSAS Free Will Baptist belief sets up a mindset that a person can commit grievous sin and still be saved. That’s what these beliefs are really about.

You said:
John 10:27-28

The type of sheep that cannot be snatched out of His hand are the kind of sheep that follow Jesus (See again: John 10:27). In other words, as long as we are following Jesus we will not be snatched out of His hand. Will God force you against your will to follow Him because you made a one time decision for Christ?

We are told:

“...We are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end.” (Hebrews 3:13-14).

"Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life." (Jude 1:21).

"...be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life." (Revelation 2:10).​


We are told to:

  1. Continue in the grace of God (Acts of the Apostles 13:43).

  2. Continue in the faith (Acts of the Apostles 14:22) (Colossians 1:23).

  3. Continue in his goodness, otherwise we can be cut off (just like the Jews were cut off) (Romans 11:21-22).

You said:
John 6:37

John 6:37-40 says,

37 "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day."​

First, what does Jesus mean by,

“All that the Father giveth me come to me?”

Well, we have to understand that the Father elects those based on His future foreknowledge of our free will choice concerning Him (1 Peter 1:2) (Deuteronomy 30:19). Also, we also have to understand that not everyone is going to be saved; However, it is God's will that all people should be saved, though (1 Timothy 2:4) (2 Peter 3:9) (Revelation 22:17). This is why we read in Scripture about how many are called, but few are chosen (Matthew 20:16).

Same meanings since all are given the chance to have life through Jesus. But those who are His have come so willingly in faith, repenting and turning with a sincere heart; forever to the submission of God’s commandments and desires.

Verse 39 implies that it is possible for Jesus to lose some of the flock. If it were not so, He would have said so. But if what you say is true, then Jesus would have said,

"I WILL lose nothing."

However, that is not what Jesus said. Jesus says,

"I SHOULD lose nothing."

John 6:39 (KJV) says,

"And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day."

Second, eternal life here is not a guarantee. Jesus says in verse 40

"MAY have everlasting life".

John 6:40
"And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day."

In other words, Jesus should lose none and all who are His should be raised, because they should all continue in the righteousness God gave them through the sacrifice of Jesus. It’s not that Jesus isn’t capable of keeping up with His sheep; it’s that He never keeps His sheep against their wills. How so?

Well, we see in Scripture that the Father gave all of the disciples to Jesus; However, Jesus kept them all except Judas, though.

John 17:12 says:

"While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled."​

Now, allow me to rephrase this in modern-terminology:

While I was with the marbles in the world, I kept them. Those marbles that you gave me I kept, and none are lost, but the green marble.​

And OSAS terminology:

While I was with the marbles in the world, I kept them. Those marbles that you gave me I kept, and none are lost, except for the green marble that you never gave me.​

Do you see now how OSAS doesn't make any sense?


Old Source Link Used:
http://conditionalsalvation.com/
(Note: Website no longer active)
 
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Yes, "Once Saved, Always Saved".

As for the questions your pose, many can be answered by the basic principle that the saved endure to the end.

John writes, "They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us." 1John 2:19

John says that he is warning the brethren about those who are seducing them (1 John 2:26).

John was warning the brethren of their false belief of thinking sin is non-existent (1 John 1:8). What does the apostle John mean when he says the follow?

“They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.” (1 John 2:19).​

Well, I believe this means the gnostics heard the same message of salvation from the apostles, and they were even sent out by them, but they did not receive it whereby they later had shown by their false belief of Gnosticism that they did not regard sin as something that needed to be confessed because they thought sin was an illusion or non-existent (1 John 1:8, 1 John 1:10). So this is not referring to all believers throughout time.

In fact, see my post #559 that shows a couple of list of verses proving that believers can fall away from the faith and or die spiritually.

But if that is not convincing to you, think about what it means to fall away in the first place.
What exactly are they falling away from?
You cannot fall away from the faith or God’s kingdom without being in His Kingdom.
In your view, they are only superficially falling away and they are not technically falling away. In your view, Judas was always a devil. But this would mean Jesus chose a devil to preach the good news? What fellowship does light have with darkness? Also, Judas betrayed the Lord. You cannot betray someone unless you were once loyal to them.

Also, Jude says that there are those who are plucked up by the roots, and twice dead.
They are twice dead because they were dead spiritually before they came to the faith, and they died spiritually a second time by falling away from the faith.

Also, in the Parable of the Prodigal Son: When the prodigal son came home and sought forgiveness with his father, his father said that he was “dead” and he is “alive AGAIN.” The prodigal son did not physically die, so this is speaking in spiritual terms. The son died spiritually while living it up with prostitutes and he became alive AGAIN spiritually when he came back to his father seeking forgiveness with him. This same truth is expressed in James 5:19-20.

You said:
Furthermore John writes, "No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God." 1John 3:9

Thus those who point out verses which correlate salvation with behavior fail to take into account that principle. The nature of regeneration is such that those born of God do not continue in sin.

And that pretty much covers all the anti-Eternal security objections.

But what if you forget to mention the necessity of holiness or another teacher friend of yours forgets?
Imagine if a child hears the message that we are saved by a belief alone in Jesus and it’s in nothing that you do (and or not of works of any kind). What if you never see that child again? They could easily misunderstand such a message and grow up to be the next George Sodini who killed a bunch of people and took his own life (thinking he was saved by a belief alone in Jesus).

Also, do you believe King David was saved while he committed his sins of adultery and murder? What if a Christian who generally lived a holy life looks upon a woman in lust and then gets hit by a bus before they got a chance to confess of their sins? Is he saved?

How many sins does it take before one qualifies the characteristic of, “he cannot go on sinning” as mentioned in 1 John 3:19? Remember, it only took one sin for Adam and Eve to fall into spiritual death.
 
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I would rather believe in a propitiation that is efficacious for all whom it was intended for than to believe the blood of Christ failed at some point with regard to the salvation of a man's soul.

BH, the problem with your viewpoint is that it leads men and women to put the faith of their salvation onto themselves and their repentance instead of leaning it exclusively on Christ.

I don't have the energy to respond to everything you've written. Do forgive me.
 
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I would rather believe in a propitiation that is efficacious for all whom it was intended for than to believe the blood of Christ failed at some point with regard to the salvation of a man's soul.

BH, the problem with your viewpoint is that it leads men and women to put the faith of their salvation onto themselves and their repentance instead of leaning it exclusively on Christ.

I don't have the energy to respond to everything you've written. Do forgive me.

But what if I am right? What if the warning passages are truly what they mean?
To me: Your belief is too dangerous a game to play. My very soul and the souls of others is on the line. It overconfidence in one’s assurance when God tells us to work out our salvation with fear and trembling. Why all the trembling if it is not talking about fear?
 
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But what if I am right? What if the warning passages are truly what they mean?

I can still believe in those passages without adopting your position in its entirety.

Why all the trembling if it is not talking about fear?

I believe it has to do with spiritual growth. Growing is good and it should be done in reverence and awe of God.
 
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What if a Christian who generally lived a holy life looks upon a woman in lust and then gets hit by a bus before they got a chance to confess of their sins? Is he saved?

What if you were a father and your child did something you felt was sinful against you. Would you crack his head open for it?
 
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BH, the problem with your viewpoint is that it leads men and women to put the faith of their salvation onto themselves and their repentance instead of leaning it exclusively on Christ.

Everything I have put forth is from God’s Word. I did not write God’s Word. I am just relaying what His Word says. Jesus Himself basically says, “repent or perish” (See: Luke 13:3). So yeah. You have to repent because it is in His Word and it has nothing to do with me. I did not write Luke 13:3. That’s God inspired Scripture.

Repentance is seeking forgiveness with the Lord Jesus with the intention of forsaking those sins.

Jesus is the One who can help us to obey, as well (See: John 15:5, Philippians 2:13).
So if we do any good, Jesus gets all the glory and praise.
 
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I can still believe in those passages without adopting your position in its entirety.

I don’t see how. When I ask for these kinds of verses to be explained, they generally go unanswered or they are explained away in what they plainly say because they point to a dead language or they rip the meaning of the verse out of it’s context.

You said:
I believe it has to do with spiritual growth. Growing is good and it should be done in reverence and awe of God.

Again, this goes against the plain and obvious meaning and it runs against common logic and sense of how to read things. This is like running away from what God is trying to say to us in countless places. Over and over and over and over again, God hits us over the head with how sin can destroy our souls and how we need to be faithful or we are not going to make it. Almost every page in your New Testament yells out these truths, but one has to continually bury their head in the sand and re-write Scripture at every turn because they don’t like the plain meaning. Sorry, this is just how I see it.

Trembling is clearly referring to fear. Not some reverent awe.
A person trembles because they are afraid.
To stretch the meaning to refer to the OSAS interpretation is like running away from the most obvious meaning because you want OSAS to be true (Not because the Bible teaches it).
 
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What if you were a father and your child did something you felt was sinful against you. Would you crack his head open for it?

God gives a believer continued physical life in most cases to confess and forsake their sin. That’s why we are here. To accept Christ, by faith, and to live out our faith, and to be faithful to Him. I also believe that a believer can go prodigal and come back, but I would not want to tell a believer that they should test the waters of going prodigal to find out on whether they will come back or not and or be saved in the end. For when the prodigal son came home and sought forgiveness with his father, he was said to be “dead” and “alive AGAIN” by his own father. Seeing the prodigal son did not physically die, we must conclude that he died spiritually while he was living it up with prostitutes and that he became alive AGAIN spiritually when he came back home and sought forgiveness with his father. The prodigal son did not bring his prostitutes back with him to his father’s house. If such was the case, he would not really be sorry. Those who are truly sorry about their sin will stop sinning and not justify sin.

I mean, what do you do with verses like Matthew 5:28-30, Matthew 6:15, Matthew 12:37, Matthew 25:31-46, Luke 9:62, and Luke 10:25-28? Do you just sweep these verses under the rug and forget about them? To me, your belief has to re-write these verses in some way.
 
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I have never seen verses that demolish OSAS explained in a way that was satisfactory to a plain and normal simple reading. The plain and normal reading always has to go ignored or changed in some way. That is what I don’t like it. It’s not being honest with the text - IMO. Also, it violates basic morality, as well. God would have to agree with a believer’s thinking that they can sin and still be saved? Can God agree with our sinning? Really? Now, some will say you have to live holy, but many really do not get into specifics about it.

Granted, I am not denying there are a small few OSAS folk who truly believe in living holy in order for OSAS to be true, but I usually do not run into too many of these kinds of individuals. I also have to be skeptical, too. For John MacArthur teaches a form of OSAS, and Lorship Salvation. Yet he believes a saint can commit suicide and be saved. He believes a believer can take the mark and be saved. He believes that sin does not separate the believer. So his teaching on the necessity of holy living is a Trojan horse.
 
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Also, there are many OSAS proponents out there who believe they can sin like the devil and be saved. How do you distinguish yourself from them when discussing this topic?
Do you not try to argue against what they believe?
Does not what they believe upset you?
I know it does for me.
 
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What if you were a father and your child did something you felt was sinful against you. Would you crack his head open for it?

So what of Ananias and Sapphira?
They did not even have a chance to repent.
And what happened next?
A great fear came upon the church.
Why were they in fear?
If they were unbelievers (fake believers), the church would not be afraid.
If they were saved and in the arms of Jesus, the church would not be afraid.
But… if the church knew a similar sin could happen to them and bring them into judgment (condemnation), then fear makes a lot of sense.
 
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Remain in me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.

Obviously we can choose not to remain in Christ.

Your view is also my understanding of the doctrine of salvation. Christ is ever faithful, but man is fickle hence the reason the scriptures warned believers in different places to abide, persevere in Christ to the end. Being saved is only the beginning of the journey; one MUST remain saved until the end of their mortal life to enjoy the reward of salvation ie, immortality, eternal life in the resurrection.

If there is zero possibility that the saved can willfully depart from a relationship with the Lord, obviously these warnings would have been unnecessary. The fact that both Jesus Christ and the Apostles exhorted believers over and over against this present danger means it is possible and real. But as you can see from some of the posts here, many posit that "once saved, is forever saved". To these believers, the scriptures warning believers about the dire consequences of falling away from Christ doesn't mean what it says!
 
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Remain in me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.

Obviously we can choose not to remain in Christ.

Your view is also my understanding of the doctrine of salvation. Christ is ever faithful, but man is fickle hence the reason the scriptures warned believers in different places to abide, persevere in Christ to the end. Being saved is only the beginning of the journey; one MUST remain saved until the end of their mortal life to enjoy the reward of salvation ie, immortality, eternal life in the resurrection.

If there is zero possibility that the saved can willfully depart from a relationship with the Lord, obviously these warnings would have been unnecessary. The fact that both Jesus Christ and the Apostles exhorted believers over and over against this present danger means it is possible and real. But as you can see from some of the posts here, many posit that "once saved, is forever saved". To these believers, the scriptures warning believers about the dire consequences of falling away from Christ doesn't mean what it says!
 
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@Bible Highlighter

I don't feel like debate right now. I will leave you with this:

"Adam in perfection could not keep himself in paradise. How then can his imperfect children be so proud as to rely on their own steadfastness?"
 
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@Bible Highlighter

I don't feel like debate right now. I will leave you with this:

I understand how you feel in not wanting to debate. I took a break from CF for a while because sometimes it can be frustrating to communicate the truth and yet nobody is listening and all they want to do is express beliefs that deeply grieves the soul. Anyways, whenever you get around to it in your own time, I would appreciate it if you gave me some satisfactory replies at some point in the future (When you do feel like debating again). In fact, don’t do it for me, but do it to help others. But again, I understand how you feel. I have been there. But like I said before, on this topic it is pretty common for me to get the “no reply” or a reply that goes beyond what Scripture plainly says. It’s either one or the other.

You said:
"Adam in perfection could not keep himself in paradise. How then can his imperfect children be so proud as to rely on their own steadfastness?"

I believe in Synergism. We draw near to God and He will draw near to us (See: James 4:8). We have to actively seek to want to pray, study His Word, and follow Jesus. God is not going to force us to do these things. We have to ultimately want them bad enough to make the commitment. For why else would Paul tell us to work out our salvation with fear and trembling? (See: Philippians 2:12). This involves God (or the Lord Jesus) doing the good work through us (Philippians 2:13).

We are told:

“...We are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end.” (Hebrews 3:13-14).

"Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life." (Jude 1:21).

"...be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life." (Revelation 2:10).​


We are told to:

  1. Continue in the grace of God (Acts of the Apostles 13:43).

  2. Continue in the faith (Acts of the Apostles 14:22) (Colossians 1:23).

  3. Continue in his goodness, otherwise we can be cut off (just like the Jews were cut off) (Romans 11:21-22).

How do these truths plainly written God’s Word line up with your belief?
Do you have to re-write these truths in God’s Word because you don’t like what they say?
 
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I would appreciate it if you gave me some satisfactory replies at some point in the future (When you do feel like debating again).

Okay @Bible Highlighter I will try to get around to answering what you've posted ITT.

For why else would Paul tell us to work out our salvation with fear and trembling?

Okay, but we are also told that those who fear have not been made perfect (complete) in Love. I don't see this verse as suggesting that we retain a state of constant anxiety about our salvation. I believe God desires us to grow into an assurance of our salvation (maturity), and that is what this verse is telling us to do. To come to the realization of our new lives as born-again believers. To see our position in Christ more clearly. To affirm God's good will usward. To encourage a contrite spirit. To get rid of anything that holds us back from the realization that God has saved us in Christ. And to serve as a guideline or roadmap as we undergo sanctification.
 
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How do these truths plainly written God’s Word line up with your belief?
Do you have to re-write these truths in God’s Word because you don’t like what they say?

Simply put, the true Christian will continue in all these.
 
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I believe in Synergism

I believe in Synergism too. Only I believe it leads to sanctification, not salvation. Salvation is of the Lord.

Psalms 3:8
Psalms 37:39
Psalms 62:1
Jonah 2:9
 
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