Forgive

Tellyontellyon · Oct 28, 2021

Thatgirloncfforums said:
Ah. Yes. I see. Hi! to the OP. Welcome! @Tellyontellyon

Thank you!

I'm not here to put Christianity against Buddhism, but I'm interested in this idea of forgiveness in Christianity... Some seem to be saying that a debt must be paid by someone, either us, or by Jesus' blood...
.... But in the lord's prayer it says we can be forgiven if we ourselves are forgiving....
It's just not quite clear to me as there seems to be different ways to forgiveness?

...

The Fat Buddha is usually Bodai, a chubby monk who is very kind to children, a sort of Buddhist Santa! People often confuse them.

Rice pudding sounds lovely... I'm hungry now!

The Buddha realised that suffering (and being reborn is suffering as it leads to further sickness, aging and death)... is caused by attachment/craving... here is a story to illustrate...

Thatgirloncfforums · Oct 28, 2021

Ah. I understand now. Thanks for the video

Pavel Mosko · Oct 28, 2021

Tellyontellyon said:
Thank you!

I'm not here to put Christianity against Buddhism, but I'm interested in this idea of forgiveness in Christianity... Some seem to be saying that a debt must be paid by someone, either us, or by Jesus' blood...
.... But in the lord's prayer it says we can be forgiven if we ourselves are forgiving....
It's just not quite clear to me as there seems to be different ways to forgiveness?

There is only one way to forgiveness Jesus Christ, but as a Christian you must share in his work by doing likewise.

Matthew 18:21-35
New International Version

The Parable of the Unmerciful Servant
21 Then Peter came to Jesus and asked, “Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother or sister who sins against me? Up to seven times?”

22 Jesus answered, “I tell you, not seven times, but seventy-seven times.

23 “Therefore, the kingdom of heaven is like a king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants. 24 As he began the settlement, a man who owed him ten thousand bags of gold was brought to him. 25 Since he was not able to pay, the master ordered that he and his wife and his children and all that he had be sold to repay the debt.

26 “At this the servant fell on his knees before him. ‘Be patient with me,’ he begged, ‘and I will pay back everything.’ 27 The servant’s master took pity on him, canceled the debt and let him go.

28 “But when that servant went out, he found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred silver coins. He grabbed him and began to choke him. ‘Pay back what you owe me!’ he demanded.

29 “His fellow servant fell to his knees and begged him, ‘Be patient with me, and I will pay it back.’

30 “But he refused. Instead, he went off and had the man thrown into prison until he could pay the debt. 31 When the other servants saw what had happened, they were outraged and went and told their master everything that had happened.

32 “Then the master called the servant in. ‘You wicked servant,’ he said, ‘I canceled all that debt of yours because you begged me to. 33 Shouldn’t you have had mercy on your fellow servant just as I had on you?’ 34 In anger his master handed him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should pay back all he owed.

35 “This is how my heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother or sister from your heart.”

Aussie Pete · Oct 28, 2021

Tellyontellyon said:
Jesus said:
“This, then, is how you should pray:
Our Father in heaven,
hallowed be your name,
your kingdom come,
your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven. Give us today our daily bread. And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one."

He tells us simply to forgive.. no price has to be paid... we just let go.

But, for salvation, this view that in order to forgive, someone's blood must be spilt...
Why can't God simply let go and forgive... simply let go of the 'debt' as Jesus instructed.

A debt has to be paid. If it is not, then the conscience of the debtor can never be clear. It will hang over his life like a black cloud. Sin is the debt that we owe God. The payment for sin is death. Now either we die or another has to die the death that is the price of our sin. Lord Jesus paid that price. No one else could, because they are also sinners. It would be like a bankrupt offering the pay the debt of another bankrupt. A noble idea, but not possible.

Unbelievers go through life building up a load of debt that cannot be paid except by death. When they face almighty God on Judgement Day, they will appear as morally bankrupt. They have nothing with which to pay what they owe. So they are sent away from God's presence into the "debtor's prison" commonly known as hell.

People who have a guilty conscience won't want to be in God's presence. The first thing that Adam did after he disobeyed was to hide from God. Unless a person accepts the forgiveness that only comes through Christ, they will be no different from Adam in attitude to God. I know what it means to have a guilty conscience cleansed. I had no idea that I felt guilty as I'd never known anything different. I sure knew when my sins were washed away! It was like a great weight had lifted off me. I did not know it then, but "Pilgrim's Progress" refers to this when Pilgrim finds Christ and his burden is lifted. And this is the experience of all who know that their sins are forgiven.

Aussie Pete · Oct 28, 2021

d taylor said:
-

In Genesis 2,3 God chose blood as the payment for sin.

This is because "the life is in the blood".

Thatgirloncfforums · Oct 28, 2021

Can our debt be looked at as 'bad karma' that we accrue over our lifetime?

Aussie Pete said:
A debt has to be paid. If it is not, then the conscience of the debtor can never be clear. It will hang over his life like a black cloud. Sin is the debt that we owe God. The payment for sin is death. Now either we die or another has to die the death that is the price of our sin. Lord Jesus paid that price. No one else could, because they are also sinners. It would be like a bankrupt offering the pay the debt of another bankrupt. A noble idea, but not possible.

Unbelievers go through life building up a load of debt that cannot be paid except by death. When they face almighty God on Judgement Day, they will appear as morally bankrupt. They have nothing with which to pay what they owe. So they are sent away from God's presence into the "debtor's prison" commonly known as hell.

People who have a guilty conscience won't want to be in God's presence. The first thing that Adam did after he disobeyed was to hide from God. Unless a person accepts the forgiveness that only comes through Christ, they will be no different from Adam in attitude to God. I know what it means to have a guilty conscience cleansed. I had no idea that I felt guilty as I'd never known anything different. I sure knew when my sins were washed away! It was like a great weight had lifted off me. I did not know it then, but "Pilgrim's Progress" refers to this when Pilgrim finds Christ and his burden is lifted. And this is the experience of all who know that their sins are forgiven.

eleos1954 · Oct 28, 2021

Tellyontellyon said:
Jesus said:
“This, then, is how you should pray:
Our Father in heaven,
hallowed be your name,
your kingdom come,
your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven. Give us today our daily bread. And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one."

He tells us simply to forgive.. no price has to be paid... we just let go.

But, for salvation, this view that in order to forgive, someone's blood must be spilt...
Why can't God simply let go and forgive... simply let go of the 'debt' as Jesus instructed.

We can forgive but that alone does not rid us of sin (of which causes death) ... we need to be delivered from the evil one ... and that will happen.

Jesus never sinned and defeated death and offers eternal life to those who will believe.

It was His life (how He lived it), His death and resurrection.

Salvation is: Justification + Sanctification = Glorification

God’s plan for our salvation has three parts in this order: Justification, Sanctification, and Glorification.

Justification:

Each one of us have broken God’s Law. This is sin. The wages of sin is (eternal) death (cease to exist forever). This price is more than we can ever repay–it is impossible. Because of God the father’s unconditional love for the us, he gave his only begotten Son Jesus to pay for our debt of eternal death on the cross. This one time event was done by Jesus. Only Jesus is worthy to pay the price for each one of us because he never sinned. He has not broken God’s Law. Jesus (in the form of a man) died a physical death, giving His life willingly and was raised back to life; thus conquering eternal death.

sanctification.

It’s the reciprocation of our love toward God. We are sanctified with the help of the Holy Spirit (Comforter) that Jesus gives us. Sanctification means to set a part or to make holy. His Holy Spirit helps us in this process to become more like Christ. This is not a one time event; it’s a life long process (we stumble here and there). The process of sanctifying and purifying us (the works that Jesus does in the believer, and is not of ourselves) ... it is HIM working in us and through us. We are separated from the world. We are in the physical world but not of the world spiritually. Our mind (thinking) changes over time and therefore our actions also change. Our faith increases more and more as He faithfully works in us. Hebrews 12:2

The third stage in the plan of salvation is our glorification.

We won’t be glorified until after Jesus returns. John writes of this in his first letter when he states that “when he shall appear we shall be like him (1 John 3:2). Paul refers to this stage frequently. For example: “For this corruptible must put on incorruption and this mortal must put on immortality (1 Corinthians 15:53). He also refers to a time when “we shall all be changed in a moment in in a twinkling of an eye at the last trump” (1 Corinthians 15:51-52). Paul speaks further of the doctrine of glorification when he says in Romans 8:18, “For the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.” We receive glorified spiritual bodies. Receiving eternal life and being with Him forevermore. Those saved (justification + sanctification) will be glorified when Christ returns at the first resurrection.

And because of His grace (favor) if we remain in Him He will accomplish His work

Philippians 1:6

And I am certain that God, who began the good work within you, will continue his work until it is finally finished on the day when Christ Jesus returns.

Sketcher · Oct 28, 2021

Thatgirloncfforums said:
Can our debt be looked at as 'bad karma' that we accrue over our lifetime?

As I understand it, there's no "bad karma" or "good karma" in traditional Eastern faiths, just karma. I really wouldn't compare karma to our sin debt, or really any theological concepts between Christianity and Eastern faiths. They're entirely different beasts, and if someone with one of the two backgrounds wants to understand the other, I see no other way than explaining from the ground up, no shortcuts.

James_Lai · Oct 29, 2021

Tellyontellyon said:
Jesus said:
“This, then, is how you should pray:
Our Father in heaven,
hallowed be your name,
your kingdom come,
your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven. Give us today our daily bread. And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one."

He tells us simply to forgive.. no price has to be paid... we just let go.

But, for salvation, this view that in order to forgive, someone's blood must be spilt...
Why can't God simply let go and forgive... simply let go of the 'debt' as Jesus instructed.

In ancient times - sacrifice a sheep, an ox, a pigeon and God is happy with you… Pretty weird.

Same logic for Jesus…

Thatgirloncfforums · Oct 29, 2021

James_Lai said:
In ancient times - sacrifice a sheep, an ox, a pigeon and God is happy with you… Pretty weird.

Same logic for Jesus…

Bible Gateway passage: Hosea 6:6, Psalm 51:16-17, Proverbs 15:8, Matthew 9:13 - English Standard Version

James_Lai · Nov 3, 2021

Thatgirloncfforums said:
Bible Gateway passage: Hosea 6:6, Psalm 51:16-17, Proverbs 15:8, Matthew 9:13 - English Standard Version

The overwhelmingly dominant idea is this though:

Genesis 8:20-21, Genesis 22:2, Exodus 20:24, 1 Kings 13:2, Leviticus 17:11, Leviticus 19:20-22, John 1:29, Ephesians 5:1-2, Hebrews 9:14, Hebrews 9:28, Hebrews 10:10, Romans 3:25, 1 Corinthians 11:23-26

When it says that God doesn’t want animal sacrifices anymore, it explains that it was temporary until the final sacrifice of Jesus: Hebrews 10:1-18

Sacrifice is absolutely the central and necessary idea in the Bible. Without the shedding of blood, there is no forgiveness. Leviticus 17:11, Hebrews 9:14, Hebrews 9:22, Romans 3:25, 1 John 1:7

Sacrifice is everywhere in the Bible, from the first book to the last. It’s many times referred to in the NT directly or alluded to. It’s used figuratively to refer to service, prayer, ministry, helping etc.

If we remove sacrifice from the Bible, we might as well lose its essence.

hedrick · Nov 3, 2021

James_Lai said:
The overwhelmingly dominant idea is this though:

Genesis 8:20-21, Genesis 22:2, Exodus 20:24, 1 Kings 13:2, Leviticus 17:11, Leviticus 19:20-22, John 1:29, Ephesians 5:1-2, Hebrews 9:14, Hebrews 9:28, Hebrews 10:10, Romans 3:25, 1 Corinthians 11:23-26

When it says that God doesn’t want animal sacrifices anymore, it explains that it was a temporary until the final sacrifice of Jesus: Hebrews 10:1-18

Sacrifice is absolutely the central and necessary idea in the Bible. Without the shedding of blood, there is no forgiveness. Leviticus 17:11, Hebrews 9:14, Hebrews 9:22, Romans 3:25, 1 John 1:7

Sacrifice is everywhere in the Bible, from the first book to the last. It’s many times referred to in the NT directly or alluded to. It’s used figuratively to refer to service, prayer, ministry, helping etc.

If we remove sacrifice from the Bible, we might as well lose it’s essence.

Heb 10 appears to say that the OT sacrifices don’t take away sin, but are just a reminder of sins.

Unfortunately the OT discussions of sacrifice don’t really say how they work I think it’s reasonable to say that animal sacrifice is really a sacrament, a visible sign of the severity of sin and the seriousness of the worshippers’ repentance.

James_Lai · Nov 3, 2021

hedrick said:
Heb 10 appears to say that the OT sacrifices don’t take away sin, but are just a reminder of sins.

Unfortunately the OT discussions of sacrifice don’t really say how they work I think it’s reasonable to say that animal sacrifice is really a sacrament, a visible sign of the severity of sin and the seriousness of the worshippers’ repentance.

Leviticus 17:11, Leviticus 19:20-22, Hebrews 9:22

Even animal sacrifices did atone sins, not the entirety of sins. That’s why Jesus sacrifice was required that took care of all sin once and for all

hedrick · Nov 3, 2021

James_Lai said:
Leviticus 17:11, Leviticus 19:20-22, Hebrews 9:22

Even animal sacrifices did atone sins, not the entirety of sins. That’s why Jesus sacrifice was required that took care of all sin once and for all

These verses don’t say why the sacrifice atones. Commentators have quite a range of ideas. Indeed there are a number who think the context of Lev 17:11 implies that reserving the blood for God atones for what would otherwise be the murder of the animal. I’m not proposing this specifically, just using it as an illustration.

Ligurian · Feb 19, 2022

Tellyontellyon said:
Jesus said:
“This, then, is how you should pray:
Our Father in heaven,
hallowed be your name,
your kingdom come,
your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven. Give us today our daily bread. And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one."

He tells us simply to forgive.. no price has to be paid... we just let go.

But, for salvation, this view that in order to forgive, someone's blood must be spilt...
Why can't God simply let go and forgive... simply let go of the 'debt' as Jesus instructed.

Isaiah 53:5 But He was wounded for our transgressions, He was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon Him; and with His stripes we are healed.

Psalms 89:31-32
20 I have found David My servant; I have anointed Him by holy mercy...
30 If His children should forsake My law, and walk not in My judgments;
31 if they should profane My ordinances, and not keep My commandments;
32 I will visit their transgressions with a rod, and their sins with scourges.
33 But My mercy I will not utterly remove from Him, nor wrong My truth.LXX

Revelation 22:16 I Jesus have sent Mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, the bright and morning star.

Ligurian · Feb 19, 2022

BeyondET said:
A good part of the phrase is this. if you can't do the bold below there is no point in repeating it. i'm not talking about some of the debtors but all the debtors. i know that can be challenging indeed but you got to try with all your heart even if you fail least your trying with your heart to do so.

And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors.

Matthew 5:23-24, Repent before Forgiveness.

Matthew 6:14-15 For if ye forgive men their trespasses,
your heavenly Father will also forgive you:
But if ye forgive not men their trespasses,
neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

Matthew 18:33-35 Shouldest not thou also have had compassion
on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee?
And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors,
till he should pay all that was due unto him.
So likewise shall My heavenly Father do also unto you,
if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

"Forgiveness does not mean the instant restoration of trust. Forgiveness is instant. Trust must be rebuilt over time. Forgiveness is based on grace. Trust is built on works."
You Can Forgive Before You Trust - Pastor Rick's Daily Hope (I don't agree with all of this page.)

"... These times are so uncertain,
There's a yearning undefined
And people filled with rage,
We all need a little tenderness
How can love survive in such a graceless age
The trust and self-assurance that lead to happiness
They're the very things we kill, I guess
Pride and competition cannot fill these empty arms
And the work I put between us,
You know it doesn't keep me warm

I'm learning to live without you now,
But I miss you, baby
The more I know, the less I understand
All the things I thought I figured out, I have to learn again
I've been trying to get down to the heart of the matter
But everything changes,
And my friends seem to scatter
But I think it's about forgiveness,
Forgiveness
Even if, even if you don't love me anymore..."
--Don Henley, The Heart Of The Matter

Pride and Competition /\ ... leading to selfishness and revenge \/:

"others can’t bring themselves to forgive as they don’t feel that it brings them any relief."
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/disturbed/201208/why-you-dont-always-have-forgive

Forgiveness is an act of love, done for those who repent. If they repent, and keep repenting, their minds will change their actions.
What happens when someone repents, and the other only pretends to forgive... because they keep bringing up the forgiven action which was never repeated?

eleos1954 · Feb 20, 2022

Ligurian said:
Matthew 5:23-24, Repent before Forgiveness.

Matthew 6:14-15 For if ye forgive men their trespasses,
your heavenly Father will also forgive you:
But if ye forgive not men their trespasses,
neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

Matthew 18:33-35 Shouldest not thou also have had compassion
on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee?
And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors,
till he should pay all that was due unto him.
So likewise shall My heavenly Father do also unto you,
if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

"Forgiveness does not mean the instant restoration of trust. Forgiveness is instant. Trust must be rebuilt over time. Forgiveness is based on grace. Trust is built on works."
You Can Forgive Before You Trust - Pastor Rick's Daily Hope (I don't agree with all of this page.)

"... These times are so uncertain,
There's a yearning undefined
And people filled with rage,
We all need a little tenderness
How can love survive in such a graceless age
The trust and self-assurance that lead to happiness
They're the very things we kill, I guess
Pride and competition cannot fill these empty arms
And the work I put between us,
You know it doesn't keep me warm

I'm learning to live without you now,
But I miss you, baby
The more I know, the less I understand
All the things I thought I figured out, I have to learn again
I've been trying to get down to the heart of the matter
But everything changes,
And my friends seem to scatter
But I think it's about forgiveness,
Forgiveness
Even if, even if you don't love me anymore..."
--Don Henley, The Heart Of The Matter

Pride and Competition /\ ... leading to selfishness and revenge \/:

"others can’t bring themselves to forgive as they don’t feel that it brings them any relief."
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/disturbed/201208/why-you-dont-always-have-forgive

Forgiveness is an act of love, done for those who repent. If they repent, and keep repenting, their minds will change their actions.
What happens when someone repents, and the other only pretends to forgive... because they keep bringing up the forgiven action which was never repeated?

Forgiveness means you don't hold any anger or ill will toward them over the situation.

You can forgive someone and not want to see them. Just because you've forgiven them doesn't mean you owe them anything or that you are required to put yourself in a situation where they can hurt you again.

Forgiveness is a choice to release the offender from our punishment and entrust it to God. It happens in a single moment. Healing is a journey that takes time and intention. Keep in mind though, forgiveness is the first step that kicks off the journey to healing.

A trust has been violated and it takes time for both to heal .... the person who offended needs to understand this.

Both need to give it to God .... and leave it there. Sometimes easier said than done.

Time and prayer.

Ligurian · Feb 20, 2022

eleos1954 said:
Forgiveness means you don't hold any anger or ill will toward them over the situation.

You can forgive someone and not want to see them. Just because you've forgiven them doesn't mean you owe them anything or that you are required to put yourself in a situation where they can hurt you again.

If God acted that way towards you, "forgiving you"... but refusing to have anything to do with you, because He knows you will fail again... what good would His forgiveness do you?

Forgiveness is an act of love, done towards the repentant... he's the one in trouble, not you. As with everything else, you do it without counting the cost... you leave your heart open and vulnerable. If you can't do that, then you don't know how to forgive.

Matthew 18:35 21 Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times? 22 Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.
aphiemi = from apo and hiemi (to send; an intensive form of eimi, to go); to send forth, in various applications (as follow):--cry, forgive, forsake, lay aside, leave, let (alone, be, go, have), omit, put (send) away, remit, suffer, yield up.

Repentance from the heart is also a necessary part of this process. Say you're married to someone who gets drunk and abusive. And when they sober up, they say sorry because they feel bad about what they did... for whatever reason... but they always refuse to stay drug-free. Have they repented from the heart?

eleos1954 · Feb 21, 2022

Ligurian said:
If God acted that way towards you, "forgiving you"... but refusing to have anything to do with you, because He knows you will fail again... what good would His forgiveness do you?

Forgiveness is an act of love, done towards the repentant... he's the one in trouble, not you. As with everything else, you do it without counting the cost... you leave your heart open and vulnerable. If you can't do that, then you don't know how to forgive.

Matthew 18:35 21 Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times? 22 Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.
aphiemi = from apo and hiemi (to send; an intensive form of eimi, to go); to send forth, in various applications (as follow):--cry, forgive, forsake, lay aside, leave, let (alone, be, go, have), omit, put (send) away, remit, suffer, yield up.

Repentance from the heart is also a necessary part of this process. Say you're married to someone who gets drunk and abusive. And when they sober up, they say sorry because they feel bad about what they did... for whatever reason... but they always refuse to stay drug-free. Have they repented from the heart?

well .... that's the point .... can you still forgive them if they don't repent? Yes ....
forgiveness don't mean you have to stay in a relationship and continue to be abused and live with an ungodly person who is being harmful.

No, they have a heart issue and only God can change that .... so we don't harbor ill feelings toward them (forgive) and prayerfully give them over to God, praying they WILL come to repentance.

1 Corinthians 5

Expel the Immoral Brother

9I wrote you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people. 10I was not including the sexually immoral of this world, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world.

11But now I am writing you not to associate with anyone who claims to be a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a verbal abuser, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat.

God is against abuse/violence of any kind and people do not have to subject themselves to it!

2 Timothy 3-4

Godlessness in the Last Days

3 But understand this, that in the last days there will come times of difficulty. 2 For people will be lovers of self, lovers of money, proud, arrogant, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, 3 heartless, unappeasable, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not loving good, 4 treacherous, reckless, swollen with conceit, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God,

5 having the appearance of godliness, but denying its power. Avoid such people. 6 For among them are those who creep into households and capture weak women, burdened with sins and led astray by various passions, 7 always learning and never able to arrive at a knowledge of the truth.

If a persons chooses to distance themselves from someone that is being harmful to them (verbally or physically) does not mean they have not forgiven them.

Ligurian · Feb 21, 2022

eleos1954 said:
well .... that's the point .... can you still forgive them if they don't repent? Yes ....
forgiveness don't mean you have to stay in a relationship and continue to be abused and live with an ungodly person who is being harmful.

Does he even WANT forgiveness from you, when he doesn't believe God?

Say a person with a very bad idea of religion says he will pray for you... and you immediately wonder what god he's actually praying to... and the superstitious part of you jumps up and paints a picture of your name being mentioned to all the fiends of hell as a potential initiate... when you'd much rather go unnoticed by the person, his god, and the fiends.

No, you can't forgive someone who doesn't repent.

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