The Great Chapter of Isaiah 29

keras said:

Yes; there are two future Days when the Lord will take action.
The first will be the Sixth Seal worldwide disaster by fire from the sun. Instigated by Jesus as the Son of Man and He will be revealed only to His own people. 2 Thessalonians 1:6-10, Revelation 7:1-14
Unexpectedly.

The second will be the glorious Return, as the King of Kings and Lord of Lords, seen by all.
No surprise to those who know their Bibles.

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FAIL because you haven't answered the primary question the disciples asked the Lord.
When will the temple be destroyed?
THAT TEMPLE?
THESE THINGS?
When you can answer that question - then you might have a clue.

keras said:

Why is it necessary for you to come back with such nasty and bitter replies?

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Really - from yourself - the guy that quotes terribly condemning scriptures against people I respect at Moore College?

We all know when the Temple was destroyed. That is an historical fact.

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Ah - dodging the question.
I expected as much.

So Jesus just didn't answer their question about the end of the temple and instead rambled about a bunch of stuff they couldn't possibly understand?

And if they listened wrong, they could easily think it was going to happen in their generation - because he did kind of say that.

Hmmm, not convinced.

Hammster said:

And you find that where in scripture?

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Jesus said there would be wars and rumors of wars before the days of Noah. Nation rising up against Nation.

keras said:

Isaiah 30:1-14 The Lord says; woe to Israel, a race of rebels who refuse His Laws. They ask for preachers to ‘give us smooth words and illusions’.
ALL of God’s people, Judah, plus the ten tribes still in exile, plus those grafted in.

Isaiah 30:15-18 These are the words of the Lord; In calm detachment lies your safety, your strength in quiet trust.
But you would have none of it, therefore you will be put to flight.

Yet the Lord is waiting to show you His favor and compassion, for He is a God of justice. Happy are all who wait for Him! Luke 12:37

Isaiah 30:19-24 People of Zion, weep no more. The Lord will answer you when you call for help. He gives you adversity and affliction now, but your teachers will no longer be hidden from you, you will see them with your own eyes. If you stray from the right path, you will hear a voice behind you saying- ‘this is the Way, follow it’. You will loath your images and will treat your idols [sorcery, false religions, materialism, etc] like filth. Hosea 14:8 & Ezekiel 11:18

The Lord will give rain and the Land will produce rich crops. Your livestock will prosper. Isaiah 41:17-19 & Ezekiel 34:14-16


Isaiah 30:25-28 On the Day of slaughter, when fortresses fall, streams of water will flow from every hill. The moon will shine like the sun and sunlight will be seven times brighter on the Day the Lord heals the wounds of His people. Isaiah 63:4

See the Lord Himself comes from afar, with anger and wrath, in dense clouds of smoke. His breath is a rushing torrent, He shakes the nations in a sieve of destruction. Ezekiel 30:2-5, Habakkuk 3:12, Isaiah 66:15-17

Isaiah 30:29-33Then the Lord will make His voice heard in majesty and reveal His arm descending in fierce anger, with devouring flames, thunder and hail. [Isaiah 66:15-17, Hebrews 10:27]

For at His voice, Assyria’s strength fails, His punishing Rod strikes them down. A fire pit is prepared by Jerusalem, ready for the Lord to set it ablaze with His breath, like a stream of burning sulphur. Ezekiel 20:47-48

But for you there will be songs and gladness of heart as you march to music, on the way to the Mountain of the Lord.
Zechariah 10:10-12, Psalms 68:7-12, Isaiah 66:18b-21, Romans 9:24-26
Ref, REB some verses abridged


Verse 10 is appropriate for our days, as false religions, prosperity theology, etc. are preached everywhere. Hosea 4:7-11

Verses 25-28 & 30-33 the Lords Day of vengeance, a fire judgement on His enemies, as we are told in verse 26, will be a massive explosion of the sun that will literally fulfil all the prophesies about that Day. Revelation 6:12-17, Isaiah 24, Joel 2:1-2, 2 Peter 3:7, +

Verse 29 Then; ‘you’, every faithful believer, Christians from every race nation and language; will gather into all of the Promised Land. Jeremiah 33:6-14, Psalms 107, Isaiah 35:1-10, Zechariah 8:1-8

Verses 19-24 are for the period after His people, all faithful Christians, are resettled in the Land. They will have God given leaders and teachers to guide them until Jesus Returns. Jeremiah 30:21, Hosea 1:11

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Yeah, nah.

Matt 24 at the moment - everything you quoted was irrelevant and out of context.

Try and focus on one thing.

You have the following order: CME then Christians in 'Israel' then AOD then GWT.

CME is unknowable, unpredictable, sudden.

Except here's your problem.

Matt 24 is the other way around.

Something happens first that is predictable, local, and avoidable. Run to the hills.

THEN something else happens that is unpredictable, universal, and unavoidable. There's just no running to the hills or mountains, and even if you ask them to fall on you they won't help you hide! (Rev 6).

So why doesn't your CME => GWT match Matthew 24?
And why doesn't Jesus tell the disciples when the temple would be destroyed - he brought it up!

Hammster said:

That doesn’t change the fact that 1 Peter wasn’t written to us.

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In what sense? It was written possibly to both Jews and Greeks around the Mediterranean - but whatever their background was - it was written to God's elect -

I completely grant that it wasn't directly written to us here in the 21st century. But it was written to gospel-believing Christians at least. Their context was different to ours - but we can still learn from it.

Keras has the following eschatological order: CME then Christians in 'Israel' then AOD then GWT.

Keras says his CME (Coronal Mass Ejection) is the "Day of the Lord" and claims it is unknowable, unpredictable, sudden. (Except that every OT prophecy that mentions the fires of warfare in it gets turned into a CME. ;-) )

Except here's the problem for Keras. Matt 24 is the other way around.
The first thing that happens is predictable, local, and avoidable - and involves nation rising against nation and the AOD. What does Jesus say to do? Run to the hills! Whatever it is, it's escapable. Luke 21 spells out “When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near." Jesus is telling the disciples when THAT temple is going to be destroyed, and he says watch for signs in the heavens (darkness when Jesus was crucified), for a time of persecution (which happened before AD70), for famines and earthquakes (both happened - it's history - look it up) and for armies coming to surround and DESOLATE Jerusalem.
Compare:
Matt 24: “So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’ spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand— then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.
Luke 21: “When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near. Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country not enter the city.
Conclusion: The AOD is the desolation of Jerusalem, and after the Romans burned the temple they sacrificed to the Eagle standard - a standard which represented the Roman Caesar. If that isn't the AOD destroying THAT temple that the disciples were actually asking about - I don't know what is.
But then the next thing happens in the Olivet discourse.
UNLIKE the AOD, it is unpredictable, universal, and unavoidable. There's just no running to the hills or mountains, and even if you ask them to fall on you they won't help you hide! (Rev 6).

Keras's timeline is undone.
The Olivet discourse goes predictable, local, and avoidable thing, THEN unpredictable, universal, and unavoidable thing.
Keras's CME is the unpredictable, universal, and unavoidable thing, followed by the AOD predictable, local, and avoidable thing.
Keras is wrong - QED

keras said:

The Olivet Discourse is a generally correct sequence of events, as is Revelation. They both match.

We know that the 2nd Temple was destroyed 40 years after Jesus departed and the Jews were scattered in their second dispersion.
Then we have had the Christian era of nearly 2000 years.
From Revelation and the OD, the next prophesied event will be a Day which will come unexpectedly and will be a test of our faith Matthew 24:36-44, Revelation 6:12-17, 1 Peter 4:12

To deny and reject the plainly stated Prophesies that warn us about God's plans to once again correct His Creation, is simply foolish.

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It's not my fault you can't justify your position. In the Olivet discourse it's obvious the AOD happens first, THEN the return. Not the other way around the way you have it. I should have seen this 18 months ago when we started this!

It's also not my fault you can't stick to the chapter of Matt 24 and explain yourself because you either can't comprehend how profoundly your timetable has messed up - or can't be bothered to fess up. But either way, you're timetable isn't look so hot right now is it?

eclipsenow said:

It's not my fault you can't justify your position. In the Olivet discourse it's obvious the AOD happens first, THEN the return.

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Actually it is not. Jesus gets to the very end. Then starting with desolation, works backwards from the end. John does not give us the OD in the gospel of John. John gives us the order of the OD in Revelation, except it is reverse. Most claim Revelation is not chronological, but the OD is. It is just the opposite. Revelation is chronological, and the OD is in reverse order.

Timtofly said:

Actually it is not. Jesus gets to the very end. Then starting with desolation, works backwards from the end. John does not give us the OD in the gospel of John. John gives us the order of the OD in Revelation, except it is reverse. Most claim Revelation is not chronological, but the OD is. It is just the opposite. Revelation is chronological, and the OD is in reverse order.

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Hmmm, it's not even funny anymore how futurists just ignore context. But this is the context, whether you or Keras like it or not:-


Yet you and Keras insist Jesus doesn't even answer about that temple? Yeah, right, pull the other one it plays jingle bells.


(Note: the temple trashed by pagans = Rome AD70. THAT temple! The one they were looking at.
Also note: it's not even called Judea now, in case you're trying to project it into the future.)


(Note: again with the desolation - not even specifying it has to be in the holy place - but that the whole of Jerusalem will be laid waste by the war. Note: again with the reference to Judea, which doesn't even exist today.)

Conclusion: The AOD is the desolation of Jerusalem, and after the Romans burned the temple they sacrificed to the Eagle standard - a standard which represented the Roman Caesar. If that isn't the AOD destroying THAT temple that the disciples were actually asking about - I don't know what is.

keras said:

To the contrary; Does Josephus actually say the Romans made sacrifice after the Temple was burned and destroyed?

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So? What's your point - that because YOU have hyper-literalistic and exacting demands (not to mention a whole futurist agenda to push onto the text), the Romans trashing Jerusalem, burning down the temple and sacrificing to their god's somehow doesn't conjure up Antiochus? Honestly - talk about straining at gnats but swallowing camels!

That pagans got into the temple in the first place is an AOD!

That they raided it's gold, burned it down, realised they'd left some gold behind that melted and went down through the drains and between the cracks and large blocks, resulting in the Roman soldiers pulling literally every block of the temple stone from stone, and then at that they at some point also sacrificed to their eagle standard is all vastly worse than Antiochus.

It was the end of the temple age, pure and simple - and has been for 2000 years. That it doesn't satisfy YOUR particular requirements is irrelevant!

Then the Prophecies in Daniel 9:27

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Daniel 9 is a highly disputed passage that could be talking about Antiochus, Jesus, and Rome all rolled into one. The last thing it has in mind is satisfying a bunch of 21st century crystal-ball gazers questions about the next few years of their own little lives. You have no compelling evidence it is about now. It's just a bunch of your assumptions and your desire for it to satisfy a futurist itch to be in an especially 'important' generation. The Lord could return in 5 seconds or 50,000 years - we just don't know.

and 2 Thess 2:4, tell a quite different story of what will happen.

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Probably not. There are passages in the Bible which talk about a particular being who is Christ’s foe (e.g., “the man of lawlessness” in 2 Thessalonians 2 or the dragon of Revelation 12-13 who is identified as the Devil). But this kind of symbolic language is used to describe an attitude or spirit of evil rather than a single evil person. The fact that some parts of Scripture bring ultimate evil to a head by using an individual character to identify it probably says more about how dramatic literature operates than it does about predicting history.
The worst thing about antichrists is that they have come from within the church! The apostle John wrote that they “went out from us, but they did not really belong to us”. This is what antichrists do. They get among believers and try to deceive them, persuading them to believe lies and getting people to follow them and their deceptions rather than Jesus and his truth. They teach that Christ did not come in the flesh (1 Jn 4:1-3); they say it doesn’t matter whether you sin or not (1 Jn 1:5-10); and they neglect their Christian brothers and sisters (1 Jn 4:19-21).

According to God’s word, the antichrist might have sat next to you in the church pew. This isn’t a scene from a horror movie; quite the opposite-it is an everyday event. In this final age before Jesus returns, plenty of opponents of Jesus will arise. And they may even be in church, trying to deceive us and lead us into error. But Christians can be confident and at peace, because there will be a day when all ‘antichristness’ will be done away with.

It’s a bit of a waste of time trying to work out whether the antichrist is Boris Yeltsin, the Dalai Lama, Bill Gates or the Pope. It’s just as likely to be your granny or your next door neighbour, if they are promoting lies about our Lord.

Just make sure it isn’t you …

See that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. If it does, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father. And this is what he promised us—even eternal life. (1 John 2:24-25)
The devil you know

How about the fire that came down from Heaven verses? That's localized fire. Not a CME. So it sounds like this will be something miraculous and not a natural event.

Hammster said:

Once again, the point was that they weren’t ready.

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Why are you acting as if that was His only point? He clearly made a point about the scope of destruction at His coming being just like it was with the flood and He said in Luke 17:29-30 that the day He is revealed would be just like the day "that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all".

Why are you only willing to acknowledge His point about the days preceding His coming being like the days preceding the flood, but not willing to acknowledge His point about the scope of destruction on the day of His second coming being just like it was with the flood and just like what happened on the day Lot left Sodom?

Peter compared the scope of destruction at His coming to the flood as well. Do you think that 2 Peter 3:3-13 is already fulfilled as well? If so, explain how that can be the case.