3 Questions about the coming(s) of Jesus

ewq1938

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I believe that Revelation 19:15b is a reference to the Sixth Seal event. Rev 6:12-17 Several years before the Return.


That's backwards. The 6th seal describes the second coming from the perspective of the unsaved so that is a reference to the timeframe of the Revelation 19 event. Both speak of the second coming but one is prophecy (the sixth seal) and one is the event happening, Revelation 19.
 
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Spiritual Jew

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You have such a hard time understanding what anyone else is saying. You're missing the point. I'm saying we would be protected on the earth up until the day that Jesus was talking about in that passage which is the day He returns. But, that passage talks about being taken off the earth on the day He returns in order to avoid the wrath that will come down on the entire earth on that day. The only thing He's talking about escaping there in this passage is what will happen on "that day" that He said should not catch us off guard.

Look at verse 34 carefully. Jesus was talking about a particular day, which was "that day" that was coming that would affect every single person on the face of the whole earth. He was saying that people needed to be ready for that day so that that day would not catch them off guard. That day is the day He returns. There will be a lot of wrath and destruction coming down on that day and we should naturally pray that we will be accounted worthy to escape that to stand before the Son of man unashamed.

On that day He returns, all believers will be caught up to Him "in the air" while unbelievers will all be destroyed (1 Thess 4:13-5:6, Matt 24:37-39, Luke 17:26-30, 2 Thess 1:7-10, 2 Peter 3:10-13, Rev 19:11-21). This idea that He was talking about escaping the earth and being caught up to Him (raptured) years before His actual return, as you believe, is not at all what He was saying. He was clearly talking about escaping the wrath coming down on "the whole earth" on "that day" He returns. Believers will all escape that while unbelievers, as Paul said in 1 Thess 5:2-3, "will not escape" that "sudden destruction".
 
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DavidPT

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There is something I just thought that might help you see my point about this.

As I said before, Jesus was speaking in terms of the status of the temple at that time when it was still the holy place while indicating the location where the abomination of desolation would occur.

So, let me give you an analogy that might help you understand my point. Imagine that there's a building that we knew was going to be condemned and demolished relatively soon, but we didn't know exactly when. Let's call the building "The Holy Place". But we also know that the building will be renamed "The Holy Roller Place" in a few days. Never mind why. This is just a made up analogy to make a point.

So, if I said "when you see in The Holy Place the demolition crew with their explosives then let those standing nearby flee to their cars or nearby buildings to avoid being killed by the explosives and any debris that flies out from the crumbling building", would I be wrong in calling it "The Holy Place" since it would be called "The Holy Roller Place" instead at the time it was destroyed? Or would my calling it "The Holy Place" not make people confused of what place I was talking about regardless of what it was called at the time it was actually destroyed?

While I do grasp your analogy, and that per that example it does not seem unreasonable to call it the holy place at the time of saying that, let me ask the following then.

Matthew 24:15 When ye therefore shall see(eido) the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand: )

Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see(optanomai) the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

In these two passages Jesus uses different Greek words for 'see'. If in Matthew 24:15 He was meaning in the same sense as 'see' in Matthew 24:30 is meaning, why didn't He use the same Greek word for 'see' He used in Matthew 24:30 for 'see' in Matthew 24:15?

Jesus uses eido yet again in Matthew 24, this time in verse 33, verse 36, verse 42, and verse 43.


Matthew 24:33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see(eido) all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

Matthew 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth(eido) no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

Matthew 24:42 Watch therefore: for ye know(eido) not what hour your Lord doth come.
43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known(eido) in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.

Since it is obvious, that in verse 30 it is literally meaning to see something with one's own eyes, but that in verse 36, 42 and 43, it is obvious it is not meaning that in these verses, shouldn't it be safe to assume that in verse 15 and 33 the sense is the same as it is for verse 36, 42 and 43? But, if instead, if in those two verses the sense is the same as meant in verse 30, why didn't Jesus use the same Greek word in those two verses that He used in verse 30? Of course though, I already asked that, but that is where we are back to in regards to verse 15 if it is meaning in the same sense verse 30 is meaning, that same question.
 
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DavidPT

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Exactly. So, in my opinion, you should spend more time studying and praying about this before making any kind of comments indicating that you're certain about any of it, including being certain of what Matthew 24:15 supposedly can't mean.


Yet, it seems obvious to me from some of the things I already mentioned, that the 2nd temple can't be meant. Why would there be an AOD involving an obsolete temple some 40 years after Jesus spoke those words? Why would an AOD involving an obsolete temple be relevant some 40 years later? What point is that trying to make? Is the point this? If there is no AOD involving it, it doesn't need to be destroyed, then? That couldn't possibly be why the temple had to be destroyed, because an AOD occurred in it some 40 years later.


If I said something like, I don't know who the next President is going to be, but I know who it's not going to be, it's not going to be me, does that then indicate, that since I don't know who the next President is going to be, I can't then possibly know who it won't be either? So, just because I'm uncertain what is meant by the holy place in Matthew 24:15, yet, certain it isn't the 2nd temple, I can't then be certain about the latter if I'm uncertain about the former?
 
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Acts29

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No. The rapture of the Church is after the GT has ended, and Christ and that Church will be on the Earth reigning over the unsaved nations with a rod of iron.

Rev 2:25 But that which ye have already hold fast till I come.

That is the second coming. Everything we read of next comes after the second coming:

Rev 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

After "the end" comes, there is given power over the nations to those that are overcomers which naturally includes those who "are alive and remain" at the second coming. They will be given power over the nations after Christ has returned not before it.

Rev 2:27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

After the second coming and after "the end" will the overcomers be given power over the nations, ruling them with a rod of iron. That proves the rod of iron rule over the nations for a thousand years does not even start until Christ has returned and has given overcomers this power to rule over the nations.

The seven churches in Revelation do not yet exist. Would Jesus really tell a particular church to "hold fast til I come" knowing full well that church would be long gone before He came? The letters to these churches apply at the time the covenant is broken with Israel and given to another nation as Jesus stated, and in Psalms.

On another note, I do agree Jesus will return after the "tribulation of those days." Does make it impossible that Jesus will come also before the tribulation of those days? We are not appointed to wrath and Jesus spoke of escaping these things to those counted worthy to stand before the Son of Man. Is it possible in your opinion that Jesus coming both before and after the tribulation are true?

One more coming known as the second coming, at the 7th and last trumpet.

Heb_9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Does Paul forbid Jesus from coming a third or fourth time? Paul's purpose was to launch the church among the gentiles. Why should we assume he had complete understanding of the end times when that wasn't his assignment? I don't think any of the prophets understood the whole picture in their day. It wasn't their assignment, but it is our assignment, in my opinion.

No surprise. They will be expecting it especially when the two prophets are killed and moreso when they resurrect which means the second coming quickly after that.

Rev 11:12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.
Rev 11:13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.
Rev 11:14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.
Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Have you noticed that in the 7th Trumpet, which includes Rev 12, that Jesus is very quickly caught back up into heaven to cast out Satan and THEN the Beasts arise and have their 1260 days? Further, have you noticed that in the 7th Trumpet the "elect" are carried away from the reach of Satan, but then Satan goes after the rest of the saints? In other words, some are delivered and some are not. Anyway, thanks for your post.
 
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Acts29

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I will post the missing chapter of Acts 29 if you want, or view it free at; logostelos.info

Thanks for the link. I read it but in my spirit I sense it was not written by Luke. Likely by someone that did not have first hand knowledge.

Only by the grace of God are we saved.
The faithful Christians are in the Hand of God. He will protect them during great tribulation. Isaiah 41:13 For I the Lord will hold you by the hand..... Isaiah 43:2, +

The question was about Psalm 14 when there are no righteous on the earth, not even one. If God is simply protecting them, they would still be on the earth. I don't think God was misleading here.

Jesus Return will not be unexpected.
The event referred to as coming like a thief, is the Sixth Seal disaster. The terrible Day of the Lord's fiery wrath.

He is indeed coming like a thief in the night to the wicked, but the righteous will be eagerly expecting Him. I agree.
 
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DavidPT

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Is it possible in your opinion that Jesus coming both before and after the tribulation are true?

That all depends on who you ask. If you ask a Pretribber that, the answer would be yes. If you ask a Post Tribber that, the answer would be no. EWQ can answer for himself, so I'm not tyrying to answer for him. It's just that I know he is Post Trib. And that I'm also Post trib. Can't imagine any Post tribber thinking that is possible since that contradicts Post Trib and means PreTrib instead. I can imagine Pretribbers thinking that is possible, though.
 
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Acts29

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The bible disagrees:

Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
Rev 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
Rev 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
Rev 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
Rev 11:16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
Rev 11:17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.


Rev 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
Rev 19:12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
Rev 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
Rev 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
Rev 19:16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
Rev 19:17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
Rev 19:18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
Rev 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
Rev 19:21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.



All these are the same timeframe of the second coming from various perspectives and we can see that wrath follows his coming.

These are not the same timeframe nor the same context. But, I delighted to see that at least one person sees that God's wrath comes in three distinct waves. Bravo!
 
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Acts29

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That all depends on who you ask. If you ask a Pretribber that, the answer would be yes. If you ask a Post Tribber that, the answer would be no. EWQ can answer for himself, so I'm not tyrying to answer for him. It's just that I know he is Post Trib. And that I'm also Post trib. Can't imagine any Post tribber thinking that is possible since that contradicts Post Trib and means PreTrib instead. I can imagine Pretribbers thinking that is possible, though.

From your perspective, why would Jesus coming both before and after tribulation be impossible? Please, if possible, forget pre-trib or post-trib camps as the camps tend to just argue fruitlessly. Thanks.
 
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keras

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In other words, some are delivered and some are not.
This division of the Christians is explained in Daniel 11:32
They are seen in Zechariah 14:2 and in Revelation 12:14 and 17
 
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ewq1938

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These are not the same timeframe nor the same context. But, I delighted to see that at least one person sees that God's wrath comes in three distinct waves. Bravo!


Sorry but there is no "three waves of wrath". I only cited three passages that place the wrath after the second coming.
 
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DavidPT

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From your perspective, why would Jesus coming both before and after tribulation be impossible? Please, if possible, forget pre-trib or post-trib camps as the camps tend to just argue fruitlessly. Thanks.


Though it might be nice to ignore camps, realistically one can't ignore camps. To agree with what you are proposing means to agree with something one does not agree with to begin with, that being Pretrib in this case.

Let's take 1 Thessalonians 4, for instance.

1 Thessalonians 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


What's recorded here only gets fulfilled once not multiple times. If there are two comings involved, one before the trib and one after the trib, which of these two comings do we apply these verses to?

Verse 14 says this---For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. If there are two comings, and that there are those involved with both comings who believe Jesus died and rose again, these ppl are assured that them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. If these verses involve a first coming rather than a 2nd coming, that means Paul lied when he said what he said in verse 14, where he is obviously meaning anyone remaining who is still alive at the time, if they believe Jesus died and rose again, he assures them, them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. That part seems to explain the ones being seen leaving heaven in Revelation 19 when heaven is opened. It is meaning those that sleep in Jesus, not the ones meant in 1 Thessalonians 4:17 instead.

The ones that sleep in Jesus, most of us conclude these are in heaven once they die. How does it make sense that if they are already in heaven when the coming in these verses take place, that God brings with Him if they then do a u-turn back to where they already were moments earlier? Some might argue in a like manner. If those in verse 17 are already on earth, why are they then caught up into the air then do a u-turn moments later as well? At least this u-turn makes logical sense since they still have the beast and it's armies to confront, and once the saints are changed as Jesus is descending, they are then prepared to take on the beast and it's armies.
 
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Acts29

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Though it might be nice to ignore camps, realistically one can't ignore camps. To agree with what you are proposing means to agree with something one does not agree with to begin with, that being Pretrib in this case.

Let's take 1 Thessalonians 4, for instance.

1 Thessalonians 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


What's recorded here only gets fulfilled once not multiple times. If there are two comings involved, one before the trib and one after the trib, which of these two comings do we apply these verses to?

Verse 14 says this---For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. If there are two comings, and that there are those involved with both comings who believe Jesus died and rose again, these ppl are assured that them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. If these verses involve a first coming rather than a 2nd coming, that means Paul lied when he said what he said in verse 14, where he is obviously meaning anyone remaining who is still alive at the time, if they believe Jesus died and rose again, he assures them, them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. That part seems to explain the ones being seen leaving heaven in Revelation 19 when heaven is opened. It is meaning those that sleep in Jesus, not the ones meant in 1 Thessalonians 4:17 instead.

The ones that sleep in Jesus, most of us conclude these are in heaven once they die. How does it make sense that if they are already in heaven when the coming in these verses take place, that God brings with Him if they then do a u-turn back to where they already were moments earlier? Some might argue in a like manner. If those in verse 17 are already on earth, why are they then caught up into the air then do a u-turn moments later as well? At least this u-turn makes logical sense since they still have the beast and it's armies to confront, and once the saints are changed as Jesus is descending, they are then prepared to take on the beast and it's armies.

The 1 Thess 4 prophecy of Paul could occur just once, sure. I don't see how that would mean that Jesus could not come again for a different purpose. Perhaps I missed your point?

Upon rereading, I think I follow your points here somewhat. This is how I see, not to argue or persuade, but simply offer my view.

First, "those who sleep in Jesus" and the "dead in Christ" are not the same people as they are referred separately. Jesus is the resurrection and the life and He raises all the dead. Jesus is the judge of all, including the OT saints. As I understand it, it is the OT saints that God will bring with Him to this event. The OT saints were raised with Jesus and caught up with Him 2000 years ago. Matt 27:52-53, Jude. That is why they are already in heaven for God the "bring" them. The dead in Christ are those who know Jesus is the Christ, the church. The dead in Christ are currently in Abraham's bosom awaiting this event to arise. Paul's prophecy about being absent from the body and present with the Lord applies to all the saints who die after this event. Hence the 5th seal martyrs being accumulated as they die until the full number comes in.

Second, I don't see any connection to this event and fighting any beast. The ONLY saints coming to fight the beast are those who had victory over the beast and were beheaded by him, not the whole of church history. Rev 15, 20. The raising of all the dead in Christ would have nothing to do with Rev 19 and any fighting. The fact the God is bringing the OT saints to rejoice with us together further divides this event from Rev 19. I do agree that the U-turn concept is pretty silly and pointless. There would be no reason to meet Jesus "in the air" only to return right back to the ground. What a let down that would be.

John 14:1 “Let not your heart be troubled; you believe in God, believe also in Me. 2 In My Father’s house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also. 4 And where I go you know, and the way you know.”

The way I see it, the 1 Thess 4 prophecy is "how" the John 14 prophecy comes to pass. No U-turn. We are going to the place He has been preparing for us which is where He is.

Having said all that, I still don't see how the 1 Thess 4 prophecy would eliminate the possibility of Jesus coming more than once. It actually strengthens the case for multiple appointed times to me. What am I missing?
 
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Timtofly

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One thing I just thought of though.

Revelation 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

This says days not day. You of course already pointed that out. I of course already knew it says days rather than day. That should at least tell us this involves more than just one single day. The one thing I just thought of then, per Amil, when the 7th trumpet sounds, this is meaning the last day of this age, thus no more days after that. Why then does this verse indicate the voice of the 7th trumpet, it involves days rather than only a final singular 24 hour day? Granted, eventually it does result in the final day of this age, but not initially if it instead involves days.


This doesn't mean that I am then agreeing with you that there are 42 more months after the 7th trumpet begins to sound. There are vials of wrath to consider. That alone can involve days. I just can't figure out how Amils make this verse fit with Amil when there are no more days remaining once the 7th trumpet sounds, per Amil, yet, the 7th trumpet involves days and not just a single day instead.
The week long March around Jericho brought to a end the Nations and allowed Israel a voice.

The week of the Cross brought to an end the voice of Israel, and gave that voice to the Gentile believers.


The week of the 7th Trumpet brings an end to all things, but yet many claim Satan is given a voice. According to Revelation 13, this time of desolation will only last for 42 months.

The vials are poured out during the 3.5 days the 2 witnesses lay dead. By Sunday morning they have been brought back to life and ascended into heaven. Between 5pm and 6pm the same Sunday, Armageddon is the one hour joint effort where the 10 kings join with Satan and the FP, but are destroyed. These people are all who are left on this earth after 42 months of utter desolation. The majority of humanity have been killed during the Seals, the Trumpets, and the Thunders. Revelation reveals a systematic removal of souls from the earth one way or the other, this being the final harvest.
 
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Timtofly

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Revelation 12:17 Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to wage war against the rest of her offspring—those who keep God’s commands and hold fast their testimony about Jesus.

Who else but those in the church are "those who keep God’s commands and hold fast their testimony about Jesus"? You claiming that verses like this don't refer to the church is utterly ridiculous.
The 144k. They are the only ones left on earth at this point. They are a literal 144k humans, ie the rest, besides the church already in Paradise.

They are defeated in chapter 13, but not necessarily killed. They retreat to Mt Zion the GWT where God is sitting until the 42 months are over, and then return to defeat Satan at Armageddon.

This is not a physical overcoming in chapter 13. This is the result of the confirmation per Daniel 9:27. They retreat so Satan can have 42 months of utter desolation. Yet souls are still beheaded who reject Satan during this 42 months. The only reason Satan is allowed 42 months. This is the opportunity to have one's head chopped off in defiance of Satan, and to remain in the Lamb's book of life. Being physically killed is not overcoming. Being willing to die, is overcoming.
 
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Timtofly

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This is a reference to the souls of those who are in the church in heaven.

The idea that the church is not referenced between Revelation 6 and 19 is clearly not true and can't be taken seriously.
Clearly the church is in heaven and not on earth since the 6th Seal. Thus all events after the 6th Seal are future, and pre-judgment of the Trumpets and Thunders. This also shows chapter 7 through 22 are not intra Advent, but only happen after the Second Coming, when the church is clearly shown to be in Paradise from the 6th Seal on.

The 144k are sealed on the earth, to be protected during the judgments of the Trumpets and Thunders. They are on the earth as disciples of Christ with Christ. Christ is on the earth with them.

The 144k may be a segment of the church, but clearly they are on the earth tasked with a particular duty to assist Jesus Christ the Prince at the Second Coming just like the 12 disciples were tasked as OT persons in setting up the NT church. The 144k are the firstfruits of the Millennial Kingdom who are humans in incorruptible physical bodies who live on earth for the 1000 year Lord's Day, known as the Sabbath after the 6 days of Adam's punishment of sin and death.
 
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tranquil

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I would like to your take on the following three questions concerning the return of Jesus. Thank you for your time.

1) Do you believe that the rapture/ingathering of the church will be the end of the church on the earth? In other words, do you believe the church will be gone and a new church consisting of people that just witnessed the rapture will or will not arise?

2) How many appointed times of Christ are to come, in your understanding? Do all of the scriptures concerning the return of Jesus occur at one time? Spread over two times? Three times? More?

3) Do you believe that those who follow Jesus will be surprised at His coming? As in, they did not expect Him that day.

1) There is no 'whisked away' rapture - this is just conflating 2 separate issues: being protected & being gathered. Since Christians will still be present on the earth, the church is still here on earth. (Although there probably will be a pharmacologically based delusion which people will insist is this 'rapture' and subsequent being 'left behind' thereby stripping any Pope or Christian religious leader of any moral authority.)

2) Revelation indicates 3 different gatherings: at Revelation 7 before the Trumpets, at the 6th Trumpet's '200 million' army referring to Psalm 68:17, and at the end of the 2 witnesses/ 7th Trumpet.

Micah 5
3Therefore Israel will be abandoned until the time when she who is in labor bears a son,
and the rest of his brothers return to join the Israelites.

Hosea 1
10Yet the number of the Israelites will be like the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured or counted. And it will happen that in the very place where it was said to them, ‘You are not My people,’ they will be called ‘sons of the living God.’f 11Then the people of Judah and of Israel will be gathered together, and they will appoint for themselves one leader, and will go up out of the land. For great will be the day of Jezreel.

Ezek 37
16“Son of man, take a stick of wood and write on it, ‘Belonging to Judah and the Israelites associated with him.’ Then take another stick of wood, and write on it, ‘Belonging to Joseph (that is, to Ephraim) and all the Israelites associated with him.’ 17Join them together into one stick so that they will become one in your hand.

18“When your people ask you, ‘Won’t you tell us what you mean by this?’ 19say to them, ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says: I am going to take the stick of Joseph—which is in Ephraim’s hand—and of the Israelite tribes associated with him, and join it to Judah’s stick. I will make them into a single stick of wood, and they will become one in my hand.’ 20Hold before their eyes the sticks you have written on 21and say to them, ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says: I will take the Israelites out of the nations where they have gone. I will gather them from all around and bring them back into their own land. 22I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel. There will be one king over all of them and they will never again be two nations or be divided into two kingdoms. 23They will no longer defile themselves with their idols and vile images or with any of their offenses, for I will save them from all their sinful backsliding, and I will cleanse them. They will be my people, and I will be their God.​

Isaiah 11
10On that day the Root of Jesse will stand as a banner for the peoples. The nations will seek Him, and His place of rest will be glorious. 11On that day the Lord will extend His hand a second time to recover the remnant of His people from Assyria, from Egypt, from Pathros, from Cush, from Elam, from Shinar, from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea. 12He will raise a banner for the nations and gather the exiles of Israel;He will collect the scattered of Judah from the four corners of the earth. 13Then the jealousy of Ephraim will depart, and the adversaries of Judah will be cut off. Ephraim will no longer envy Judah, nor will Judah harass Ephraim.
In some manner, Israel is gathered (post abomination of desolation), Judah and Israel are gathered, then there is a 2nd gathering of Christians from Assyria, Egypt, etc.
 
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Timtofly

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The days are referencing the days leading up to the sounding of the seventh trumpet. How can you think that multiple days can happen (involving all 7 of the vials) after the 7th trumpet sounds in light of what it says here:

Revelation 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. 16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God, 17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned. 18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

How long after the seventh trumpet sounds do you think the kingdoms of the world "become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ"? Days later? Is that the impression this gives? Not at all, right?

How long after the seventh trumpet sounds will God's wrath come? It says when the seventh trumpet sounds "thy wrath is come". Does that give the impression that it will still be some days before His wrath comes?

How long after the seventh trumpet sounds will the dead be judged? It says when the seventh trumpet sounds it will be "the time of the dead, that they should be judged". Does that come across as if it's saying the dead will be judged days after the seventh trumpet sounds?

I can ask similar questions regarding the rewards for the saints and for the destruction of those who destroy the earth. There is no indication here at all that there would still be multiple days of events after the seventh trumpet sounds.

Don't you believe that the seventh trumpet is the same as the last trumpet of 1 Cor 15:51-52? I believe you do. So, how long after the last trumpet sounds will we all be changed? Days later or a moment later?
The days and years leading up to the 7th Trumpet are all the events of the Seals, 6 other Trumpets, and 7 Thunders. The days leading up to are already covered. We are talking about the days of the actual 7th sounding or voice. This sheds light on Daniel 9:27, a set of days, one week. This week is split by utter desolation. The 42 months of desolation stated in Revelation 13, after the 7th Trumpet has already been blasting for 3 days. The split week is not the intra Advent between the Cross and the Second Coming. It is the sounding of the 7th Trumpet. Daniel 9:27

"And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate."

This 7th Trumpet was the victory Trumpet as mentioned in Revelation 11. Yet Jesus Christ brings to a halt this celebration. The only halt listed after chapter 11 is in chapter 13 where there is 42 months given to Satan and the FP. This 42 months ends and the rest of the week of the 7th Trumpet is waiting. The 3.5 days the 2 witnesses lay dead in Jerusalem. The whole 11th chapter is about the days of the sounding of the 7th Trumpet.

Revelation 12 is an historical side note introducing Satan into the 7th Trumpet narrative. Satan is the master of such desolation for 42 months. That many souls still have a chance at redemption by having their heads chopped off during this 42 months is the reason why the week was split in two.

Of course this won't make sense to one whose eschatology is just a vague ongoing phenomenon called the 1991 years between the Cross and the Second Coming.

It won't make sense to those who think the 70th week was fully in the first century or fully at the Second Coming. Jesus Christ the Prince is the 70th week. His first 3.5 years happened in the first century. The last half is after the Second Coming. Daniel 9:27 is the sounding of the 7th Trumpet per Revelation 10:7. All the events during the 7th Trumpet will finalize the OT prophet's messages.
 
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Spiritual Jew

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While I do grasp your analogy, and that per that example it does not seem unreasonable to call it the holy place at the time of saying that, let me ask the following then.

Matthew 24:15 When ye therefore shall see(eido) the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand: )

Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see(optanomai) the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

In these two passages Jesus uses different Greek words for 'see'. If in Matthew 24:15 He was meaning in the same sense as 'see' in Matthew 24:30 is meaning, why didn't He use the same Greek word for 'see' He used in Matthew 24:30 for 'see' in Matthew 24:15?

Jesus uses eido yet again in Matthew 24, this time in verse 33, verse 36, verse 42, and verse 43.


Matthew 24:33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see(eido) all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

Matthew 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth(eido) no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

Matthew 24:42 Watch therefore: for ye know(eido) not what hour your Lord doth come.
43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known(eido) in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.

Since it is obvious, that in verse 30 it is literally meaning to see something with one's own eyes, but that in verse 36, 42 and 43, it is obvious it is not meaning that in these verses, shouldn't it be safe to assume that in verse 15 and 33 the sense is the same as it is for verse 36, 42 and 43? But, if instead, if in those two verses the sense is the same as meant in verse 30, why didn't Jesus use the same Greek word in those two verses that He used in verse 30? Of course though, I already asked that, but that is where we are back to in regards to verse 15 if it is meaning in the same sense verse 30 is meaning, that same question.
Where are you getting that the word "see" in Matthew 24:15 is translated from the Greek word "eido"?

I use Strong's Greek Lexicon on blueletterbible.org and that indicates that the word "see" in Matthew 24:15 is translated from the Greek word horaō (Strong's G3708). That is the case for Matthew 24:33 as well. That word can mean to literally see something with one's own eyes. So, if you're trying to say that Matthew 24:15 doesn't involve actually literally seeing something with one's own eyes then I disagree.

The same Greek word horaō is used in the parallel verse Luke 21:20 (when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies..."). Of course, you don't acknowledge that Luke 21:20 is parallel to Matthew 24:15, which is part of the reason why you don't understand what Matthew 24:15 is about.
 
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Timtofly

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That's backwards. The 6th seal describes the second coming from the perspective of the unsaved so that is a reference to the timeframe of the Revelation 19 event. Both speak of the second coming but one is prophecy (the sixth seal) and one is the event happening, Revelation 19.
The 6th Seal is the only event that Jesus Christ gave in the OD as the Second Coming. The 6th Seal is the baptism of fire that starts Jesus' earthly ministry just like the baptism of water in the first century. The white horse event is the end like the Cross was God's judgment against sin. Revelation 19 is the direct judgment of those not covered by the Cross left alive on the earth.

Jesus' baptism was not the same event as the death on the Cross. Neither is the Second Coming at the 6th Seal the same event as Armageddon at the end of the final harvest.
 
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