Justification: Faith (and works?)

Maniel said:

I'm having a conversation with a catholic friend. I'm trying to understand justification from his view and the protestant view that I was raised in.

Ephesians 2:8 says: For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

But then it also says: 10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

So there is at least some sort of work that is mentioned. As I understand justification from the catholic teaching, we are saved by faith, and then by the grace of God we are able to produce the good works that is needed for our salvation.

James 2:14-26 go on to say: if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him?

Catholics are emphasising James quite a bit as I understand, while Luther considered if it should even be a part of the canon. What exactly does James mean? There seem to be some contradictions at the surface which is why there's different opinions I'm sure.

Romans 5 says: 1Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, wea have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. 2Through him we have also obtained access by faithb into this grace in which we stand, and wec rejoiced in hope of the glory of God.

Another example that by faith we are justified. Paul goes on to say that faith is a gift.

Romans 6 goes on to say: 1 What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? 2By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it? 3Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?

So Paul is talking about how we shouldn't continue in sin, that our baptism leads us to be Born Again, following Christ, being obedient, being in a relationship with Him. So this is some kind of works that is needed, but at the same time it's: For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9not a result of works?

My friend is pointing out this verse to me in Philippians 2:12: Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

That we are to work out our salvation continually. I'm having a hard time understanding these "contradictions" or nuances of what faith really means. Is the catholic teahcing Luther was protesting the same in the 1500s as today? Is the catholic teaching and protestant much closer today?

I feel that by faith we are saved is very reassuring. I need the grace of God, otherwise I'm simply lost if I'm saved by works. But I naturally want to try, I want to follow Jesus, because I see how damaging sin is to my life and our society at large. I look up unto the divinity of God, His holiness, I'm longing for that to happen. I believe in love.

Does the dispute happen when Catholics is saying, that it's by faith we are saved and the works we are given by God's grace - Where the protestant want to say; it's by faith alone, and from that relationship good works should occur to some degree naturally if it's genuine, but isolated, works are dead and won't save you?

If you are able to help me out, thank you.

Sincerely, Mathias

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It's not about what we do .... it's about what Jesus has done and is doing.

Hebrews 12:2

“Looking away unto Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith, who for the joy set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down on the right hand of the throne of God.”

Jesus is the Author of our faith.

In the teachings of the ancient churches as they received it, salvation is an event-and a journey. At justification we're made spotless and filled with true righteouness on the basis of faith, and heaven-bound at that point. All a gift; we're truly blest, made new creations. But the will of man is never removed from the equation, and, in fact, is integrally involved in it, by Gods discretion, according to His wisdom-because He wants our wills involved for our own highest good. While we can never move ourselves towards God to begin with we can still say "no" when He calls, or say "not anymore" if we've once said "yes" in the past after tasting of the heavenly gift, having come to the knoweldge of Christ.

We all have different opportunities in terms of time, experience, revelation/knowledge, grace, maturity, intelligence, whatever. And we'll be judged on what we did with what we've been given, with more expected of those given more. The Parable of the Talents sheds light on this. Man still has an obligation to be personally righteous under the new covenant, apart from the law, but he must first of all learn a basic lesson that human history (life in this relatively godless world) provides when combined with God's revelation of Himself and His will. As Pope Emeritus Benedict once put it,
"Let us put it very simply: man needs God, otherwise he remains without hope."
Echoing:
"Apart from Me you can do nothing." John 15:5

The New Covenant is not at all about suddenly freeing man from the obligation to be righteous for some reason, but about forgiving him, cleansing him, and giving him the righteousness, the love, through the Spirit, to now overcome sin, to be who he was created to be, finally-only in communion with God. Both a gift and a daily human choice, to remain in Him, to pick up our cross and follow.
"...not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ—the righteousness that comes from God on the basis of faith." Phil 3:9

“But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it.” Rom 3:21

fhansen said:

As I understand it Luther, himself, named justication as being the core difference between Protestantism and Catholicism. And I've come to understand this as well, and to understand why the Catholic position is far more sound and in line with the whole of Scripture and with human experience as well. And most Protestants, IMO, actually live more as if the Catholic position is true.

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People do often end up arguing or discussing without realizing they are not using all the same words precisely the same ways. (sometimes those differences are not obvious at all, and take time to detect)

But, now, with a lot of patience and work to understand precisely what is meant by each other, this agreement:

JOINT DECLARATION ON THE DOCTRINE OF JUSTIFICATION | EWTN

Which seems to me to be much more about finally beginning to understand what the other side actually was meaning, getting past the confusion of how the same words were used in different ways, subtly at times. Here's part of why I think so, in addition to a lot of experience over time in discussions, and talking with a very educated Catholic friend for hours in person, and finally trying hard to understand precisely what Catholics were really trying to say -- translating.

Then I got it: it's much the same.

Hardly any difference on so much (most things even I found with my Catholic friend we just already had total agreement), so not hard at all to eventually begin listing all the many, many points of perfect agreement, including crucially Justification.

chevyontheriver said:

You do know, don't you, that the Lutherans and Catholics came to an agreement on all of this already? Well, not all Lutherans.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joint_Declaration_on_the_Doctrine_of_Justification

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Yes. Also, you might like what I wrote just above to fhansen, about this.

Maniel said:

Thank you I will make sure to read it.



I see. Then there seem to be no dispute at all. Thank you! I wonder if the same happens with the pope and the authority the Catholic church claims. I still have trouble understanding this, but will try. This should be my next focus I think.

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Well there still is controversy among those who want it to still be controversial. But for the rest of us we are closer than those other guys would want us to believe.

Maniel said:

I'm having a conversation with a catholic friend. I'm trying to understand justification from his view and the protestant view that I was raised in.

Ephesians 2:8 says: For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

But then it also says: 10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

So there is at least some sort of work that is mentioned. As I understand justification from the catholic teaching, we are saved by faith, and then by the grace of God we are able to produce the good works that is needed for our salvation.

James 2:14-26 go on to say: if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him?

Catholics are emphasising James quite a bit as I understand, while Luther considered if it should even be a part of the canon. What exactly does James mean? There seem to be some contradictions at the surface which is why there's different opinions I'm sure.

Romans 5 says: 1Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, wea have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. 2Through him we have also obtained access by faithb into this grace in which we stand, and wec rejoiced in hope of the glory of God.

Another example that by faith we are justified. Paul goes on to say that faith is a gift.

Romans 6 goes on to say: 1 What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? 2By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it? 3Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?

So Paul is talking about how we shouldn't continue in sin, that our baptism leads us to be Born Again, following Christ, being obedient, being in a relationship with Him. So this is some kind of works that is needed, but at the same time it's: For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9not a result of works?

My friend is pointing out this verse to me in Philippians 2:12: Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

That we are to work out our salvation continually. I'm having a hard time understanding these "contradictions" or nuances of what faith really means. Is the catholic teahcing Luther was protesting the same in the 1500s as today? Is the catholic teaching and protestant much closer today?

I feel that by faith we are saved is very reassuring. I need the grace of God, otherwise I'm simply lost if I'm saved by works. But I naturally want to try, I want to follow Jesus, because I see how damaging sin is to my life and our society at large. I look up unto the divinity of God, His holiness, I'm longing for that to happen. I believe in love.

Does the dispute happen when Catholics is saying, that it's by faith we are saved and the works we are given by God's grace - Where the protestant want to say; it's by faith alone, and from that relationship good works should occur to some degree naturally if it's genuine, but isolated, works are dead and won't save you?

If you are able to help me out, thank you.

Sincerely, Mathias

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Grace is the root, works are the fruits.
James wasn't trying to say that works save.
James was saying that works are evidence of saving faith.

Romans 11 makes an important distinction on the "grace + works" salvation that Catholics should pay attention to.

5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

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at the point you introduce works as being required for salvation, it is no longer grace. You can't work for a free gift, it's no longer a free gift at that point.

Maniel said:

Thank you for this. Would you still say that works are the fruits of faith? Or could one potentially be saved as a drug addict? One who never get the motivation to step out of his chains, but still firmly has faith in God, at least to the extent he is able. A faith like a mustard seed down in the abyss. Might be a bad example, just pure speculation from my side, as God only knows. Abraham, David and so on are all mentioned as people who did wrongdoings, even Samson who married a Philistine woman and lived a pretty carnal life it seemed. But God still choose him and worked through him to his death. So faith / works just seem like such a hard issue to me. My own father keeps pointing to the cross, to the other thief who was saved not by his life of works apparently, but at his movement of repentance. And so with the woman who touched the clothes of Jesus. All these small acts. So I'm left wondering.

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Yes, it's possible, but, Jesus says they will be least in the Kingdom of Heaven.

Matthew 5

19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

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Let's look at that through another lens, and another witness

1 Corinthians 3

8 Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour.
9 For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building.
10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

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So here Paul talks about being rewarded for works done for the Kingdom, and this is on top of eternal life, which is a free gift not by our works, but by the finished work of Jesus. Paul is talking about 1 pastor (himself) planting a Church, but another pastor (Apollos) continuing to nurture it and preach to it. Both get credit in doing these works, but you need to take into account why you are doing the work (for the Kingdom of God, for Christ's sake, not for your own glory), because those works will be scrutinized. Work for Christ's sake, endures this scrutiny and as a result, the man is rewarded for what he did. But if a man does nothing for the kingdom, or he did work but it was more for himself not for Jesus, then that work is shown to be in vain, and no reward for it. Paul is showing in verse 15, that it is possible to have done no work that earns any reward.... but you still get eternal life, by grace because of what Christ did for you.

Think about the story of Lot. Lot was righteous, in that he had faith in God, he recognized the angels for what they were.. but he still lived in Sodom, he still fellowshipped with sinners, and when the men tried to break down his door to rape the angels, he offered his own daughters to be gang raped

Genesis 19

5 And they called unto Lot, and said unto him, Where are the men which came in to thee this night? bring them out unto us, that we may know them.
6 And Lot went out at the door unto them, and shut the door after him,
7 And said, I pray you, brethren, do not so wickedly.
8 Behold now, I have two daughters which have not known man; let me, I pray you, bring them out unto you, and do ye to them as is good in your eyes: only unto these men do nothing; for therefore came they under the shadow of my roof.

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I mean this is one of the times where it's hard not to cringe at what a person does in the bible, isn't it?

and yet Lot was pulled out of Sodom by the angels even though he kept stalling and not wanting to leave his life in the city behind, they pulled Lot out, with his daughters, before Sodom was destroyed.

Jesus gives this testimony as a picture of the rapture in Luke 17. That Lot was pulled out just before the wrath of God destroyed the city. It also shows salvation by grace, because .. Lot was a backslider. His end in the bible is being made drunk and then seduced by his daughters... not exactly a proud moment.

But, saved by grace, and I know we'll see Lot in heaven (Peter refers to him as just Lot and refers to him as righteous). He might not have a lot of reward or authority, but he'll still be there, so be kind to him, he suffered enough for his backsliding.

But in general, yes, works are the fruit of a saving faith.

Maniel said:

Well this is interesting and bring all sorts of new questions to the table for me. I always imagined that all men are equal in heaven, that we are this new creation that doesn't have those hierarchies as here on earth. But with these verses it sure seems so. I wonder what it will really be like in Heaven, but we'll have to see. One of my deepest hopes and desire is to get there, and just be with God.

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Well the way that Paul talked about it, there was different rewards, usually referred to symbolically as crowns. Jesus used that image too in Revelation, and James and Peter used it in their epistles as well. Crowns symbolize authority, and also wealth, but what they are specifically I do not know.
Although Jesus does use a parable which does illuminate a possibility in the parable of the talents in Luke 19. Varying degrees of profit (work for the kingdom) are rewarded with Jesus giving authority to one servant ruling over 10 cities, another over 5 cities.
So there seems to be varying degrees of social status but, I think those that don't get these particular rewards wouldn't want them if offered anyway. Not everyone wants to rule cities and have authority.
So I don't think it's going to cause any problems.
But that is a possibility we can't really say for sure that's the rewards because it is afterall, a parable. But there are rewards on top of just "getting there"
He doesn't owe us anything, but.. He's decided there's more He wants to give us anyway.

Maniel said:

Yeah, I guess I don't think about that too much. I had a friend who did, it became almost an obsession, and he talked about it frequently. He was a part of a movement called "The Last Reformation" which is very charismatic, doing public healings etc. I can't judge if it's done in a genuine way, but it felt as being a kind of pressure for him.

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Everyone wants to hear "well done, good and faithful servant"

For Lutherans justification is solely the work of God. We do not cooperate in our justification. That is what is meant by "not of yourselves" and "not of works, so that no one may boast" (see Ephesians 2:8-9) from the Lutheran POV.

Works are part of our salvation, but they are not how we are justified. Rather, the role of good works is what it means to live as Jesus' disciples in the world, for our neighbor.

Anything that is called a "good work" that does not benefit my neighbor isn't a good work at all. God isn't the One who needs our works. We cannot improve our righteousness before God by even the tiniest measure by our works; nor do any of our works benefit God--God is in need of nothing, He's God. God is pleased with our good works because by them we feed the hungry, we clothe the naked, we give drink to the thirsty: we love our neighbor. God loves our neighbor, and so God calls us to be the agents of His love toward our fellow human beings.

Thus no one is justified by his works, but only by God's grace operating through faith. What does this mean? It means that God comes to us, changes us, converts us, gives us faith and new birth--and through this faith God appropriates to us all of His gifts. If we have faith, we have salvation--we are justified freely by God's grace. For this is God's free gift to us: The perfect righteousness of His only-begotten Son, so that the one who is baptized has "put on Christ" (Galatians 3:27).

We do not achieve salvation by believing certain things; it is not salvation by a work of faith; but salvation by grace through faith. Faith is passive, not active. Faith is what receives. We receive our salvation through faith, we receive Christ's righteousness, and thus our justification, through faith.

Works of faith and love do not justify us; but rather through works of faith and love we take up our cross as those who have faith in Christ. And with that cross we follow our Master and Teacher, our King and God, Jesus Christ our Lord. We follow Him as He calls us to lives of sacrifice, that through love we might offer up our bodies as living sacrifices (Romans 12:1), working out our salvation with fear and trembling (Philippians 2:12), and in this way walk in the way of righteousness before the world, that they might see our good works and praise God (Matthew 5:16). It is in this that we are justified before the world (but not before God). Note, justified before the world, not justified by the world. It is this righteousness--a righteousness Coram Mundus (before the world) rather than a righteousness Coram Deo (before God)--that we walk in through good works for our neighbor.

For this reason the Apostle says that the whole Law of God is fulfilled in a single word: "Love your neighbor as yourself" (Galatians 5:14). We fulfill God's Law before our neighbor by loving our neighbor--thus good works matter. They matter because that is what it means to follow Jesus in the world. But such good works do not render us just before God. Only God renders us just before God, by His grace alone, through faith alone, on Christ's account alone.

"We conclude, therefore, that a Christian does not live in himself, but in Christ and in his neighbor, or else is no Christian; in Christ by faith, in his neighbor by love." - Martin Luther, On the Freedom of a Christian

-CryptoLutheran

Maniel said:

I wonder what my Catholics friends think about these issues; if one could potentially be saved as a drug addict? One who never gets the motivation to step out of his chains, but still firmly has faith in God, at least to the extent he is able. A faith like a mustard seed, down in the abyss. It might be a bad example, just pure speculation from my side, as God only knows.

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First, I suspect that a drug addict could be saved if still addicted. Part of being an addict is being powerless over the addiction. So remaining an addict is not something willed. And thus the level of sin in staying addicted is small. Or maybe even no sin at all because to sin you need to in some sense will to sin. An addict who came to Christ but was still physically addicted can be saved.

Second, the whole issue of faith vs works is a Protestant problem of figuring out whether to follow a simplistic understanding of Paul or James. As if there is only room for one in the Bible. But both are in the Bible. Luther wanted to discard James. We need to deal with James and Paul. Catholics would of course say faith is vital, even as condemned for 'works righteousness'.

Man is 'justified' (accounted as righteous) based on faith and not works.
(Genesis 15:6; Romans 4:2-6; 5:1)

1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

Man is 'justified' (shown to be righteous) by works.
(James 2:14-24)

1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considere
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

G1344 - dikaioō - Strong's Greek Lexicon (kjv)

Maniel said:

I'm having a conversation with a catholic friend. I'm trying to understand justification from his view and the protestant view that I was raised in.

Ephesians 2:8 says: For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

But then it also says: 10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

So there is at least some sort of work that is mentioned. As I understand justification from the catholic teaching, we are saved by faith, and then by the grace of God we are able to produce the good works that is needed for our salvation.

James 2:14-26 go on to say: if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him?

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There are TWO contexts for justification.

One is past justification as we see in Romans 5:

That happens when we accept the Gospel, it is individual and it changes the salvation status of the person - it conveys the new nature to the one who is saved.


================== second kind of justification
There is also FUTURE justification that we find in James 2 and in Romans 2:13.
It is corporate and is based on a review of the persons actions (the fruit of Matt 7). It does not change the salvation status of the person rather it reveals what it already is.

Rom 2:13 13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the Law who will be justified.... on the day when according to my gospel God will judge (Vs 16)

James 2 - "you see then that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone"

Dan 7 depicts a judgment scene in vs 9-10 and says "judgment is passed in favor of the saints" at the conclusion of opening the books of heaven and judging each person by what is written in those books - vs 9-10

Maniel said:

I wonder what my Catholics friends think about these issues; if one could potentially be saved as a drug addict? One who never gets the motivation to step out of his chains, but still firmly has faith in God, at least to the extent he is able. A faith like a mustard seed, down in the abyss. It might be a bad example, just pure speculation from my side, as God only knows.

Abraham, David and so on are all mentioned as people who did wrongdoings, even Samson who married a Philistine woman and lived a pretty carnal life it seemed. But God still choose him and worked through him to his death. So faith/works just seem like such a hard issue to me. My own father keeps pointing to the cross, to the other thief who was saved not by his life of works apparently, but at his movement of faith and repentance. And so with the woman who touched the clothes of Jesus. All these small acts, that all showed faith in God and Jesus. So I'm left wondering what these works actually mean? Could it also be said that works is the expression of faith, that we are still sinners, the flesh sometimes fall into temptation, but we are like children or the woman, who come for His salvation? Is that what we mean by works? There are nuances of course, that our relationship with Jesus should naturally make the fruits of love towards humanity.

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There’s one Saint who came close to this;

Mark Ji Tianxiang - Wikipedia