Christian Universalism. What's not to like?

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Hmm

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@Hmm -- Brad Jursak is able to teach UR in his EO church because it is allowed, not because it is a primary doctrine of EO. So, Brad is able to fly under the radar and do what he does so well with a supportive denomination. Home - Brad Jersak

Interesting. I've watched a few Brad Jursak YouTube vids following your recommendation and I've become a fan but I didn't realise he was EO, probably because he comes across as a man who fights grizzly bears in the Rocky Mountains on his days off.
 
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Andrewn

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The simple fact is Universalism give people false hope that God will not judge them and send them to hell. Matthew 25:46 clearly contradicts that false hope.
Since this has been discussed in the previous 1436 posts, I will only repeat that whether a Christian believes in ECT or UR, they will follow the Lord Jesus and will be saved by his grace. Their belief will only have 4 results:

1) Their view of the character of God, how much love He is.
2) Their view of the power of God, whether able to save all or not.
3) Their view of the character of non-Christians as people loved by God or destined to endless torment.
4) Their view of whether or not there is hope that non-Christian friends and family may join them one day in heaven.

Otherwise, the Christian walk with God is the same and we all rely on his mercy. There is no need for strife. At the present time we see indistinctly, as in a mirror;
then we shall see face to face.
 
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Andrewn

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Augustine seems to have been the main person responsible for codifying and promulgating ECT as well as other wondrous Protestant ideas such as predestination and original sin.
"Some modern scholars have suggested that Manichaean ways of thinking influenced the development of some of Augustine's ideas, such as the nature of good and evil, the idea of hell, the separation of groups into elect, hearers, and sinners, and the hostility to the flesh and sexual activity, and his dualistic theology." A. Adam, Das Fortwirken des Manichäismus bei Augustin. In: ZKG (69) 1958, S. 1–25.
 
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Saint Steven

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Mat 25:46 "TheseG3778 will goG565 awayG565 into eternalG166 punishmentG2851, but the righteousG1342 into eternalG166 lifeG2222."

Same word is used. Both heaven and hell last exactly the same amount of time. Pick a meaning you like, but use the exact same meaning for both. Jesus did.
That's a great point.
Here's what I know about that. Both will be for an age. However the correction will only be for one age. Life will go on for endless ages. One age follows another. Since the age of correction can be completed, it will end.
 
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Der Alte

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Is there such a thing as a "UR scholar"? A scholar is a scholar, not a tiger of a fixed stripe, and should be led by the evidence, not by preconceptions. Talbot simply believes that the evidence overwhelmingly supports UR.
How many times have I read some UR-ites on this forum deriding "biased trinitarian scholars?" If the shoe fits.... But scholars are often not led by the evidence. For example a couple of years ago one UR-ite on CF quoted the UR high priestess to me as saying "Origen spoke many times about "after eternal life." Supposedly from Origen's Commentary on John book 13. That writing is not in public domain so I bought it. Origen used the phrase "after eternal life" one time and it had nothing to do with believers having anything "after eternal life." See comment above re: biased UR scholars.
It's good that you are able to read the NT in more than one language but what about the OT? Can you read Hebrew or do you depend on scholars who can, or do you simply ignore it? In general, don't you find that the interplay of ideas from others whether they are scholars or not helps you formulate and continually develop your own? Why else would you come on a forum such as this?
In grad school I was required to study both Biblical languages. I'm better with Greek because I started learning to speak Greek 2 decades before grad school. And whatever my skill level it far exceeds any I have encountered here. I have in my own library the most highly accredited Greek and Hebrew grammars and lexicons. Some of which I have purchased since I graduated in the early '80s. I was able to meet Billy Graham when he preached at my alma mater also in the early'80s.
upload_2021-10-26_10-48-20.jpeg
 
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Hmm

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How many times have I read some UR-ites on this forum deriding "biased trinitarian scholars?" If the shoe fits.... But scholars are often not led by the evidence. For example a couple of years ago one UR-ite on CF quoted the UR high priestess to me as saying "Origen spoke many times about "after eternal life." Supposedly from Origen's Commentary on John book 13. That writing is not in public domain so I bought it. Origen used the phrase "after eternal life" one time and it had nothing to do with believers having anything "after eternal life." See comment above re: biased UR scholars.

In grad school I was required to study both Biblical languages. I'm better with Greek because I started learning to speak Greek 2 decades before grad school. And whatever my skill level it far exceeds any I have encountered here. I have in my own library the most highly accredited Greek and Hebrew grammars and lexicons. Some of which I have purchased since I graduated in the early '80s. I was able to meet Billy Graham when he preached at my alma mater also in the early'80s.
View attachment 307711

At the end of the day, biblical scholars and theologians look at the same evidence and come to very different conclusions. This doesn't only happen in theology of course but in every other walk of life too, such as in a job interview where the interview panel sees the same applicants but often form very different views about them, and as in modern Physics where there are often competing theories to explain the same data.

You have your favourite scholars and I have mine and never the twain shall meet it seems. There's really no right or wrong though, it's about what makes the best sense to the person. Faith is about living in a trusting and loving relationship with God more than subscribing to the "correct" intellectual views. I personally couldn't trust or love a God that created and allowed ECT but I still regard myself as a Christian because I don't think it's supported biblically and so my feelings on the matter cohere with my thoughts. So no amount of scholarly evidence is going to change that. And I imagine it's similar for you. It's interesting to discuss things though because you learn from others, even when you're learning something that you think is wrong. It's particularly helpful to discuss universalism because as you must know, it's not discussed much IRL because of it's (misguided) heretical associations.

It's quite something to have met Billy Graham. He came over to England quite a few times and probably most other countries around the world!
 
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Der Alte

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* * * It's quite something to have met Billy Graham. He came over to England quite a few times and probably most other countries around the world!
When Billy Graham came to town of course everyone wanted to go see him. The school chapel wasn't that big so each student, faculty and staff got one ticket to the event. My wife wanted to go so guess who would get to use my ticket. One day I was walking down a hallway 2 students I did not know were walking toward me. One said to the other "I'm in the choir I don't need my ticket." I said "Wait a minute I need a ticket for my wife." So he gave me his ticket. The previous picture was first, then my wife moved through the crowd and was standing in front of Billy just then the man on the right moved and blocked me.
IMG_0402.JPG
ttle you can still see Billy behind him.
 
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Hmm

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When Billy Graham came to town of course everyone wanted to go see him. The school chapel wasn't that big so each student, faculty and staff got one ticket to the event. My wife wanted to go so guess who would get to use my ticket. One day I was walking down a hallway 2 students I did not know were walking toward me. One said to the other "I'm in the choir I don't need my ticket." I said "Wait a minute I need a ticket for my wife." So he gave me his ticket. The previous picture was first, then my wife moved through the crowd and was standing in front of Billy just then the man on the right moved and blocked me.View attachment 307712 ttle you can still see Billy behind him.

They're both great photos. He must have some charisma to make everyone around him smile like that, your wife especially! Thanks for posting them, they're very interesting.
 
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Cormack

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Do you think that because something is comforting it must thereby be false?

Atheists often insist upon that. Sky daddy is great therefore false, slug monkey into man on a road to nowhere is depressing therefore true. Or at the least they think the bleakness of their view earns them intellectual clout.
 
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Cormack

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The verses plural that I have and can post trump the imagined controlling parallelism.

Whether or not the verses “trump” my point really depends on how well you know your parallelism and whether or not you’ve accurately interpreted the whole bundle of verses. I don’t believe you have. Also I can’t think much of someone’s Greek when they don’t respect well known literary devices that Paul used often.

Along with the other points I have made and which you have ignored.

I guess your "high standard of doing things," does not extend to addressing the verses I quoted.

My high standard of doing things is simply about how I judge the supposed Greek credentials of people online, many insist they have them after all. So I’m not meaning to be rude or to disqualify you in an offhand way, since my standard excludes me from saying I’m a Greek this or that. Sounds as though I can do everything you can and I wouldn’t describe myself as you do.

Sending people a link to an online interlinear and believing that’s enough to “inform” them is just the kind of thing I’d expect from an online “expert” who didn’t seem to know what a parallelism was.

You don’t get the same kind of on topic in depth reply simply because I suspect it’s wasted on you, it’s a pearls before swine situation. Carl (for example) received an in depth response around the verses they shared simply because I’m confident the first words in their reply won’t be “Wrong!” :tearsofjoy:

If you would like thoroughly on topic responses like the kind I’d send to a poster like Carl, then I’d suggest acting less. . . you know.
 
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Hmm

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Atheists often insist upon that. Sky daddy is great therefore false, slug monkey into man on a road to nowhere is depressing therefore true. Or at the least they think the bleakness of their view earns them intellectual clout.

That's true. There's a kind of feeling that the more Kafkaesque you are, you the more authentic you're being. It is inherently bleak not to believe in a God who will make everything all right in the end even though you can celebrate human values and accomplishments, but angst is often used as a mark to show how deep and cool you are especially among the young.
 
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Der Alte

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Whether or not the verses “trump” my point really depends on how well you know your parallelism and whether or not you’ve accurately interpreted the whole bundle of verses. I don’t believe you have. Also I can’t think much of someone’s Greek when they don’t respect well known literary devices that Paul used often.
Since you indicated some shortcomings in Greek grammar please show me where any credible scholar states that an apparent parallelism takes precedence over any/all other rules of grammar? Especially a subjunctive in the same sentence as the apparent parallelism. You blew off my comment with this.
"Well since I don’t know ancient forms of Greek I can’t converse on subjunctives with you, if that’s enough to convince you and you’re proficient in Greek then that’s wonderful."​
Here you indicate lack of familiarity with the subjunctive mood although I gave a brief description of it in my previous post and when I provide evidence from an interlinear you blow it off.
My high standard of doing things is simply about how I judge the supposed Greek credentials of people online, many insist they have them after all. So I’m not meaning to be rude or to disqualify you in an offhand way, since my standard excludes me from saying I’m a Greek this or that. Sounds as though I can do everything you can and I wouldn’t describe myself as you do.
I have never claimed to have any credentials in Greek or Hebrew but I have studied both at the graduate level.
Sending people a link to an online interlinear and believing that’s enough to
“inform” them is just the kind of thing I’d expect from an online “expert” who didn’t seem to know what a parallelism was.
How about this link?
Course II, Lesson 9

You don’t get the same kind of on topic in depth reply simply because I suspect it’s wasted on you, it’s a pearls before swine situation. Carl (for example) received an in depth response around the verses they shared simply because I’m confident the first words in their reply won’t be “Wrong!”
You have just indicated to me that you can't give me an "in depth reply."
If you would like thoroughly on topic responses like the kind I’d send to a poster like Carl, then I’d suggest acting less. . . you know.
Did you say that looking in a mirror, you should have?
 
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Fervent

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The "opportunity for mercy" is not in itself a mercy. A mercy's only a mercy if it is exercised.

If I had been tried for a crime I had committed and was awaiting sentencing, while the judge is considering the sentence I have the opportunity of mercy. But what use is that if the judgement was that I go to prison to be tortured for the rest of my life? That would be a complete absence of mercy. Mercy would only be shown if my crime was forgiven or if the punishment was proportionate and remedial.
Certainly an "opportunity for mercy" wouldn't be a mercy, but the opportunity for salvation is. If someone is guilty of a crime that entails an automatic penalty and are offered conditions for a reprieve, the offer itself is a mercy whether it is taken or not.
 
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Hmm

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Certainly an "opportunity for mercy" wouldn't be a mercy, but the opportunity for salvation is. If someone is guilty of a crime that entails an automatic penalty and are offered conditions for a reprieve, the offer itself is a mercy whether it is taken or not.

I'm a lost in this analogy now. What theological point are you trying to make?
 
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That's true. There's a kind of feeling that the more Kafkaesque you are, you the more authentic you're being. It is inherently bleak not to believe in a God who will make everything all right in the end even though you can celebrate human values and accomplishments, but angst is often used as a mark to show how deep and cool you are especially among the young.
And the angst is confirmed every month as you pay off your school loan. - lol
 
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Hmm

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And the angst is confirmed every month as you pay off your school loan. - lol

"Hell anxiety" is a form of angst. There's actually a name for it: stygiophobia, aka stigyophobia or hadephobia, which is the fear of hell.

The modern treatment is a crash course in the real meaning of "kolasis aionios" i.e "correction pertaining to an age" (correction lasting as long as necessary) rather than "everlasting punishment" (ECT) as it's usually translated, given by any certified Koine Greek linguist.
 
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EmethAlethia

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That's a great point.
Here's what I know about that. Both will be for an age. However the correction will only be for one age. Life will go on for endless ages. One age follows another. Since the age of correction can be completed, it will end.

Then heaven is also going to end the exact same way and time.
 
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EmethAlethia

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That's a great point.
Here's what I know about that. Both will be for an age. However the correction will only be for one age. Life will go on for endless ages. One age follows another. Since the age of correction can be completed, it will end.

Yet the scripture uses the exact same word with the exact same meaning. There is no completion of one, i.e. hell and punishment not being eternal without heaven also ending and not being eternal. You can't willy nilly change the definitions in the middle of the same sentence. Unless your goal is to ignore the facts to hold fast to your beliefs the meaning is the same every time it is used throughout the Old and New Testament. I get it. You don't like that meaning. Many don't like the wording "Wives fear your husbands." And prefer to change the meaning to mean respect or honor in two out of 650 places the root word phobos is used to make it more palpable to them.

My goal is to alter my beliefs to fit the fullness of the truth when everything that pertains is rightly divided. Jesus says heaven and hell both last the exact same period of time. Pick a meaning you like as long as the two are the same as He chose the exact same word for both. Eternal #1 = Eternal #2
 
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"Hell anxiety" is a form of angst. There's actually a name for it: stygiophobia, aka stigyophobia or hadephobia, which is the fear of hell.
Wow, that's an amazing find.
No surprise that psychologists would recognize this mental illness and name it.
 
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