3 Questions about the coming(s) of Jesus

Acts29 · Oct 26, 2021

I would like to your take on the following three questions concerning the return of Jesus. Thank you for your time.

1) Do you believe that the rapture/ingathering of the church will be the end of the church on the earth? In other words, do you believe the church will be gone and a new church consisting of people that just witnessed the rapture will or will not arise?

2) How many appointed times of Christ are to come, in your understanding? Do all of the scriptures concerning the return of Jesus occur at one time? Spread over two times? Three times? More?

3) Do you believe that those who follow Jesus will be surprised at His coming? As in, they did not expect Him that day.

Abaxvahl · Oct 26, 2021

Acts29 said:
I would like to your take on the following three questions concerning the return of Jesus. Thank you for your time.

1) Do you believe that the rapture/ingathering of the church will be the end of the church on the earth? In other words, do you believe the church will be gone and a new church consisting of people that just witnessed the rapture will or will not arise?

2) How many appointed times of Christ are to come, in your understanding? Do all of the scriptures concerning the return of Jesus occur at one time? Spread over two times? Three times? More?

3) Do you believe that those who follow Jesus will be surprised at His coming? As in, they did not expect Him that day.

1) No, because I do not believe in the rapture.

2) The Incarnation, the comings in judgment throughout the ages, the Final Coming in full presence which is the entrance into eternity (with the general resurrection and final judgment).

3) Yes, but it will be a welcome surprise.

TheWhat? · Oct 26, 2021

Eschatology is such a mess in the christian world, it's a subject that I often try to avoid. But as of late I have been piecing together an understanding of the various, scattered prophecies, at least in an attempt to discern the beliefs of the early church.

Much of this has been fulfilled, I believe, in the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD. That is what I think the admonition to watch out for His coming as a thief in the night was really about.

As for the rapture (and I admit I'm not too savvy about modern interpretations) and being "caught up" to meet the Lord in the air, etc, I think it's largely misinterpreted too literally, and is missing the spiritual significance of what was meant, which may be interpreted as being part of what some scholars consider Paul's Merkabah mystic tendencies -- "merkabah" here refers to chariots of fire, alluding to Elijah's rapture. Paul is basically going into "Ezekiel" mode here and using strange language to speak of things which are not intended to be immediately distinguishable to a novice reader.

As for the calling of the elect, I do think that is yet to happen. There is a bit about the restoration of the tent of David given at the council in Jerusalem, before the destruction of Jerusalem. Since it's obvious they were expecting Jerusalem to be destroyed, and it hadn't yet, they must have expected the fulfillment of this to occur at a much later date.

I do agree with the standard orthodox eschatology of the second coming of Christ and the life of the world to come. I think the church expected this to coincide with OT prophecy left unfulfilled.

Brian Mcnamee · Oct 26, 2021

Hi # 1 is a bit tricky as the millennium will have the risen saints ruling with Jesus and those who are still alive at the return of Jesus will be under a time when Jesus is both king and priest and will the gospel indeed still be proclaimed in that era with Christ sitting on the throne or will it be more like the time the angels had before Satan aka Lucifer rebelled and got 1/3 of the angels to follow him. Ill pass on that and see what happens.

#2 The coming savior was long prophesied and Daniels 70 weeks give the timeline from the order to rebuild Jerusalem and its walls is 69 weeks until messiah the prince. Now this is checked off. The rapture is coming like a thief where no one knows the day or hour but Jesus is more like Captain Kirk coming to beam the away team to safety which I do not count as him coming the same way it would be if Kirk beamed down to save the day. So the rapture is Christ coming and we meet Him in the air and the 2nd coming is where most of the prophecy is pointing to the day of vengeance that defeats evil and establishes the kingdom that covers the earth and has no end.

final thought: many of those who disagree with the literal approach which is where my background is will emphasize the spiritual kingdom and spiritual Israel which I agree is valid and we all need to be born again to inherit the kingdom in the eternal life sense. But the complexity and specific nature of the prophecies do not make these ideas mutually exclusive but both are solid teachings and should be understood in that way. The 1st prophecy in the Bible is the seed fo the woman will crush the head of the serpent and in Rev we see the angels proclaim the kingdoms of this earth have become the kingdoms of our LORD and His Christ and He shall resign forever and ever. This is coming and I can stack hundreds of prophecies that all tell this same future narrative and they do not contradict each other and they are setting up in exact specification like dominos ready to fall.

keras · Oct 26, 2021

Acts29 said:
I would like to your take on the following three questions concerning the return of Jesus. Thank you for your time.

1) Do you believe that the rapture/ingathering of the church will be the end of the church on the earth? In other words, do you believe the church will be gone and a new church consisting of people that just witnessed the rapture will or will not arise?

2) How many appointed times of Christ are to come, in your understanding? Do all of the scriptures concerning the return of Jesus occur at one time? Spread over two times? Three times? More?

3) Do you believe that those who follow Jesus will be surprised at His coming? As in, they did not expect Him that day.

Firstly; your forum name of Acts 29, is interesting. In the Bible Acts has only 28 chapters. But another chapter was found in Istanbul about 200 years ago. Have you read it?

1/ There is no 'rapture to heaven' for anyone other that the 2 Witnesses.
We must stand firm in our faith during all the testing times ahead.

2/ Jesus will Return physically just once; Revelation 19:11
The Prophesies which say He will come in fire, etc, do not mean He will be seen then. Psalms 11:4-6, Habakkuk 3:4, +

3/ The Christian people who see or know about the time when the new Temple is desecrated; Daniel 9:27, 2 Thess 2:4, will know there will be 1260 days and then Jesus will Return.
The unexpected Day will be the sudden destruction of the Sixth Seal.

Acts29 · Oct 27, 2021

keras said:
Firstly; your forum name of Acts 29, is interesting. In the Bible Acts has only 28 chapters. But another chapter was found in Istanbul about 200 years ago. Have you read it?

I have not read it. The name is prophetic.
I hope you don't mind. I'd like to ask some follow up questions.

keras said:
1/ There is no 'rapture to heaven' for anyone other that the 2 Witnesses. We must stand firm in our faith during all the testing times ahead.

How do you explain the mystery of Psalm 14? In it God says He looks down on the earth and there are no righteous, not even one. All have gone astray. Then God says the righteous are in His hand. If the righteous are in God's hand but not on the earth, where are they?

keras said:
2/ Jesus will Return physically just once; Revelation 19:11 The Prophesies which say He will come in fire, etc, do not mean He will be seen then. Psalms 11:4-6, Habakkuk 3:4, +

I agree that Jesus will return as written in Rev 19. Prior to that in Revelation we have the 7th Trumpet when the Son is given and the mystery of God would be finished Rev 11-12. Prior to that we have the 6th seal which points to Joel and the Day of the Lord. Followed by an innumerable multitude standing before God's throne. I see no reason to take Revelation out of sequence. Why do you not see these as Jesus coming several times?

keras said:
3/ The Christian people who see or know about the time when the new Temple is desecrated; Daniel 9:27, 2 Thess 2:4, will know there will be 1260 days and then Jesus will Return. The unexpected Day will be the sudden destruction of the Sixth Seal.

I see that Daniel 9 is about three appointed times of Jesus. Jesus made a covenant with many. Jesus is God's sacrifice and drink offering that was taken away in the midst of the seven. After which, the abomination of desolation was built on the Temple Mount, which still remains today. The time of unrighteousness is a whole lot longer than 7 years. Also, the 1260 days of Satan come after the 7th Trumpet as written.
However, I mainly want to know why you believe the coming of Jesus will be unexpected? In the 6th seal, even the wicked know it is the day of the wrath of the Lamb. If the wicked expected it and know what is happening, why would the righteous not know even more what was happening? Thanks.

ewq1938 · Oct 27, 2021

Acts29 said:
I would like to your take on the following three questions concerning the return of Jesus. Thank you for your time.

1) Do you believe that the rapture/ingathering of the church will be the end of the church on the earth? In other words, do you believe the church will be gone and a new church consisting of people that just witnessed the rapture will or will not arise?

No. The rapture of the Church is after the GT has ended, and Christ and that Church will be on the Earth reigning over the unsaved nations with a rod of iron.

Rev 2:25 But that which ye have already hold fast till I come.

That is the second coming. Everything we read of next comes after the second coming:

Rev 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

After "the end" comes, there is given power over the nations to those that are overcomers which naturally includes those who "are alive and remain" at the second coming. They will be given power over the nations after Christ has returned not before it.

Rev 2:27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

After the second coming and after "the end" will the overcomers be given power over the nations, ruling them with a rod of iron. That proves the rod of iron rule over the nations for a thousand years does not even start until Christ has returned and has given overcomers this power to rule over the nations.

2) How many appointed times of Christ are to come, in your understanding? Do all of the scriptures concerning the return of Jesus occur at one time? Spread over two times? Three times? More?

One more coming known as the second coming, at the 7th and last trumpet.

Heb_9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

3) Do you believe that those who follow Jesus will be surprised at His coming? As in, they did not expect Him that day.

No surprise. They will be expecting it especially when the two prophets are killed and moreso when they resurrect which means the second coming quickly after that.

Rev 11:12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.
Rev 11:13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.
Rev 11:14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.
Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

keras · Oct 27, 2021

Acts29 said:
I have not read it. The name is prophetic.

I will post the missing chapter of Acts 29 if you want, or view it free at; logostelos.info

Acts29 said:
How do you explain the mystery of Psalm 14? In it God says He looks down on the earth and there are no righteous, not even one. All have gone astray. Then God says the righteous are in His hand. If the righteous are in God's hand but not on the earth, where are they?

Only by the grace of God are we saved.
The faithful Christians are in the Hand of God. He will protect them during great tribulation. Isaiah 41:13 For I the Lord will hold you by the hand..... Isaiah 43:2, +

Acts29 said:
Followed by an innumerable multitude standing before God's throne. I see no reason to take Revelation out of sequence. Why do you not see these as Jesus coming several times?

The thing is that Jesus IS with us now; Spiritually. Matthew 28:20
So; He will be revealed to His people; those who kept firm in their faith during the time of testing. 2 Thess 1:10, Revelation 14:1
But the glorious Return of Jesus after the 7th Bowl, seen by all, is the main event.

Acts29 said:
Jesus made a covenant with many. Jesus is God's sacrifice and drink offering that was taken away in the midst of the seven.

It is the Anti-Christ leader of the One World Govt, who make a peace treaty with the Christian peoples.
The offerings and sacrifices are of grain and animals. Isaiah 56:7, Ezekiel 40 to 46

Acts29 said:
However, I mainly want to know why you believe the coming of Jesus will be unexpected?

Jesus Return will not be unexpected.
The event referred to as coming like a thief, is the Sixth Seal disaster. The terrible Day of the Lord's fiery wrath.

keras · Oct 27, 2021

ewq1938 said:
No. The rapture of the Church is after the GT has ended, and Christ and that Church will be on the Earth reigning over the unsaved nations with a rod of iron.

Rev 2:25 But that which ye have already hold fast till I come.

That is the second coming. Everything we read of next comes after the second coming:

Rev 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

After "the end" comes, there is given power over the nations to those that are overcomers which naturally includes those who "are alive and remain" at the second coming. They will be given power over the nations after Christ has returned not before it.

Rev 2:27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

After the second coming and after "the end" will the overcomers be given power over the nations, ruling them with a rod of iron. That proves the rod of iron rule over the nations for a thousand years does not even start until Christ has returned and has given overcomers this power to rule over the nations.

One more coming known as the second coming, at the 7th and last trumpet.

Heb_9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

No surprise. They will be expecting it especially when the two prophets are killed and moreso when they resurrect which means the second coming quickly after that.

Rev 11:12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.
Rev 11:13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.
Rev 11:14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.
Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

This is the best and most Biblically accurate post that I have seen on this Forum,
Thanks ewq1938

However; I have to disagree that Jesus Returns at the 7th Trumpet. He receives the authority at that time, but not until after the 7th Bowl, does He Return.

ewq1938 · Oct 27, 2021

keras said:
This is the best and most Biblically accurate post that I have seen on this Forum,
Thanks ewq1938

That's far more than I deserve but thank you.

However; I have to disagree that Jesus Returns at the 7th Trumpet. He receives the authority at that time, but not until after the 7th Bowl, does He Return.

I recall that you believe that way and we have discussed that before. Obviously I disagree and I think the 6th seal will show he returns before the wrath of God begins which means he returns before any of the vials of wrath are poured.

Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

That doesn't make any sense if 6 vials/bowls of wrath had already taken place before Christ had returned.

keras · Oct 27, 2021

ewq1938 said:
I recall that you believe that way and we have discussed that before. Obviously I disagree and I think the 6th seal will show he returns before the wrath of God begins which means he returns before any of the vials of wrath are poured.

Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

That doesn't make any sense if 6 vials/bowls of wrath had already taken place before Christ had returned.

Any ideas of wrath of the Lord after Jesus Returns, is not scriptural and quite impossible.
The Millennium will be a time of great peace and prosperity.

The Revelation sequence of events of the Seals, Trumpets and Bowls; THEN the Return; is true and what will happen.
Not sensible to shuffle them.

Douggg · Oct 27, 2021

Acts29 said:
1) Do you believe that the rapture/ingathering of the church will be the end of the church on the earth? In other words, do you believe the church will be gone and a new church consisting of people that just witnessed the rapture will or will not arise?

The church is not mentioned in any of the verses from Revelation 6 to 19. So the answer is the church age is over when the rapture/resurrection takes place.

The messages to the 7 church's is on how to behave and live until Jesus comes for the rapture/resurrection.

Satan and his angels were kicked out of the third heaven. And they don't want any Christian to go to heaven. So as we live out this life, that's what we should keep our focus on, going to heaven, and not letting anything get us distracted, stick with Jesus.

Acts29 said:
2) How many appointed times of Christ are to come, in your understanding? Do all of the scriptures concerning the return of Jesus occur at one time? Spread over two times? Three times? More?

One Second Coming back to stand on the Mt. of Olives, which every eye will see Him.

Prior to that, Jesus coming from the third heaven into the first heaven to call the church, the dead and the living in Christ, up with Him, to go to the third heaven while the great tribulation takes place here on earth. And to return with Him, as the 10,000's of his saints in Jude 1.

Acts29 said:
3) Do you believe that those who follow Jesus will be surprised at His coming? As in, they did not expect Him that day.

In regards to the rapture/resurrection, surprised is probably a inappropriate term. We don't know the day nor hour Jesus will come.

Jesus coming for the rapture/resurrection is our hope for those of us who are looking for Him. Given the times and season, our time here on this earth is about over.

Maria Billingsley · Oct 27, 2021

Acts29 said:
I would like to your take on the following three questions concerning the return of Jesus. Thank you for your time.

1) Do you believe that the rapture/ingathering of the church will be the end of the church on the earth? In other words, do you believe the church will be gone and a new church consisting of people that just witnessed the rapture will or will not arise?

2) How many appointed times of Christ are to come, in your understanding? Do all of the scriptures concerning the return of Jesus occur at one time? Spread over two times? Three times? More?

3) Do you believe that those who follow Jesus will be surprised at His coming? As in, they did not expect Him that day.

1) Scripture tells us that all will be raised from the dead, some to everlasting life and others to everlasting condemnation, the second death. The rapture, whether physical or Spiritual, will occur at the same time. At a twinkle of an eye. Then a new heaven and earth will take the place of the old. This is the Kingdom of God in which Jesus Christ of Nazareth is King and we are His subjects, aka, the Church.
2)One time.
3)He tells us to be ready so that it would not become a surprise.

IntriKate · Oct 27, 2021

Abaxvahl said:
1) No, because I do not believe in the rapture.

2) The Incarnation, the comings in judgment throughout the ages, the Final Coming in full presence which is the entrance into eternity (with the general resurrection and final judgment).

3) Yes, but it will be a welcome surprise.

All of this .

DavidPT · Oct 27, 2021

Acts29 said:
Jesus is God's sacrifice and drink offering that was taken away in the midst of the seven.

IMO, this is what Matthew 24:15 is likely pertaining to, except it is not involving a literal brick and mortar temple in Jerusalem. That verse indicates it involves the holy place. No brick and mortar temple post Christ's death and resurrection would still be a holy place. Not the 2nd temple nor an alleged rebuilt 3rd one.

Acts29 said:
Also, the 1260 days of Satan come after the 7th Trumpet as written.

There is no 1260 days after the 7th trumpet. The book of Revelation is not chronological from start to finish. The 1260 days are meaning the 42 months recorded in Revelation 13. When the 7th trumpet sounds, we are told the following then happens---The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever(Revelation 11:15).

How can that be true in light of the following---And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world(Revelation 13:8).

Why would they be worshiping the beast instead, if the kingdoms of this world have already become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ?

DavidPT · Oct 27, 2021

keras said:
Any ideas of wrath of the Lord after Jesus Returns, is not scriptural and quite impossible.

Revelation 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

You do not think this is the 2nd coming?

Revelation 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

Isn't this verse connected with verse 11? Doesn't this verse mention the wrath of God?

DavidPT · Oct 27, 2021

Douggg said:
Prior to that, Jesus coming from the third heaven into the first heaven to call the church, the dead and the living in Christ, up with Him, to go to the third heaven while the great tribulation takes place here on earth.

Yet, you adamantly insist you are not Pretrib. I was Pretrib for years, years ago. I know Pretrib when I see it.

eleos1954 · Oct 27, 2021

ewq1938 said:
That's far more than I deserve but thank you.

I recall that you believe that way and we have discussed that before. Obviously I disagree and I think the 6th seal will show he returns before the wrath of God begins which means he returns before any of the vials of wrath are poured.

Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

That doesn't make any sense if 6 vials/bowls of wrath had already taken place before Christ had returned.

ewq1938 said:
That doesn't make any sense if 6 vials/bowls of wrath had already taken place before Christ had returned.

Matthew 24

14And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

21For at that time (time of the end) there will be great tribulation, unmatched from the beginning of the world until now, and never to be seen again. 22 If those days had not been cut short, nobody would be saved. But for the sake of the elect, those days will be cut short.

All will go through the great tribulation .... but it will be cut short.

Douggg · Oct 27, 2021

DavidPT said:
Yet, you adamantly insist you are not Pretrib. I was Pretrib for years, years ago. I know Pretrib when I see it.

Then you would know that pretrib to pretribbers means pre-70th week because they believe the entire 70th week is what they are calling "the tribulation". Pre-trib is pre-70th week. Pre-trib is also pre-confirming of the covenant for 7 years.

Anytime rapture view is that the rapture could take place pre-70th week or maybe after the confirming of the covenant for 7 years. But the rapture must be before the 2Thessalonians2:4 act.

Here are two charts. One for pre-trib view. And the other for anytime rapture view.

Timtofly · Oct 27, 2021

DavidPT said:
Revelation 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

You do not think this is the 2nd coming?

Revelation 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

Isn't this verse connected with verse 11? Doesn't this verse mention the wrath of God?

"And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate."

This week is the days of the sounding of the 7th Trumpet. Do you think if the week is split the 7th Trumpet would stop or never resume?

How long will this week be split? How long can the 7th Trumpet be interrupted?

"But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets."

The 7th Trumpet is the completion, yet Gabriel tells Daniel this week will be split.

Yes, when the 7th Trumpet starts, the kingdoms are to be turned over. This is a week long event like the week of Palm Sunday to Resurrection Sunday. That week was when Messiah was cut off, yet that was not the sounding of the 7th Trumpet. The 7th Trumpet is when Jesus Christ as Prince is announced to be in control of all earth, and that is part of the Covenant being confirmed.

Yet somehow this week is also split. This is why we see in Revelation 13, the FP and Satan are given 42 months of desolation. This is after the 7th Trumpet started. Because Gabriel stated this week will be cut in half. But the 7th Trumpet will not stop until Armageddon resolves this desolation, 42 months after the week is split.

3 Questions about the coming(s) of Jesus

Active Member

Well-Known Member

Ate all the treats

Well-Known Member

Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

Active Member

I love you three.

Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

I love you three.

Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

Well-Known Member

Active Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

God is Love

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

Well-Known Member

Similar threads