Defining terms shortens debate: Free Will

renniks said:

Lol, if he's in bondage then it can not be a free choice.
And if it's not a Free choice then God never gave him a chance.

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Free will is the power to choose to do without external force or constraint.

Bondage to sin is not external, it is internal, in the disposition, and is not a violation of free will. In bondage to sin, man is still free to choose what he prefers/likes, which is the meaning of limited free will, or free agency.

TedT said:

All FREE means is our decisions are uncoerced:

IF GOD set it up so HIS new creation had no coercion or constraints upon their choices, forcing them to choose anything, they had free will.

The Elements of a True Free Will Choice:

1. Free will can't be coerced:
Nothing in their created nature could FORCE them to choose love or hate, good or evil, including all genetics...

Nothing in their experience could FORCE them to choose love or hate, good or evil, including all, cultural or familial experience...

Nothing in their understanding or knowledge of reality could FORCE them to choose good or evil, love or hate.

In other words, they had to be completely and truly ingenuously innocent.

[Ref: definition of ingenuous: ingenuousness as: 1. Lacking in cunning, guile, worldliness; artless. 2. Openly straightforward or frank; candid.

2. Consequences must be known but not proved:
The person must understand the full consequences of their choice or it is a guess, not a true choice. “What will happen if I choose left or right, the red pill or the blue pill?” must be answered in full detail.

But "PROOF" of the nature of the consequence would compel or coerce the person to choose what was proven to be the best for them. If the answer “death here,” “life there,” was proven, which would you choose? The weight of knowledge would destroy the effect of a true uncoerced ‘free will’ choice.

If it were proven you would die if you went left, are you truly free to choose to go right? No, you are forced by your knowledge to go right. Therefore they must know, but without proof, the nature of the consequences of their choice.

Only then are they following their desires, their deepest hope in the nature of reality, defining the reality they most hope to enjoy.

Peace, Ted

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Does Man Have Free Will?

Free will is defined in a few different ways. Here is one of it's definitions.

Free will (Noun) - The ability to act at one's own discretion.

http://oxforddictionaries.com/defini...sh/free%2Bwill

In fact, the origin of the word "will" is especially important to look at, too. It says this..

Will (Verb) - To wish, desire, want, to will, or to choose.

Online Etymology Dictionary

Now, how can you have the desire for anything or to choose differently if you did not have the free choice (i.e. free will) to choose or to not to choose in the first place?

Anyways, here is a list of the different types of Free Will that I hope you shall consider.

The Three different types of Free Will:


And the hypothetical Free Will that does not exist for any being within our universe.
Which is...


A. Man's Limited Slave to Sin Free Will:
All non-believers or people who have not genuinely accepted Christ as their Savior are slaves to sin in some way. Now, this does not mean that unbelievers are not capable of making limited free will choices that are correct or good for their own well being (like choosing not to murder, steal, fornicate, or do drugs). However, on the other hand they are limited in their free will in the sense that they are slaves to sin and will have some type of sin within their life that separates them from God.

B. Man's Limited Redemptive Type Free Will:
All true believers in Christ or those who genuinely accept Jesus as their Savior are set free from being a slave to grievous sin. This gives the believer a higher level of free will than that of a non-believer who is incapable of not sinning habitually. Now, does this mean that the believer does not have the free will to no longer sin anymore? No, most certainly not. It just means that they are no longer bound to sin anymore and are given a higher status of limited free will (or limited choices). They are also not forced against their free will to have a continued salvation or to still be a believer in Christ if they decide to change their minds, too. They still must choose each day to serve the Lord or to not serve the Lord. For a believer can forfeit his or her salvation if they do not live for Christ and become a new creature; Thus, showing that they were born again.

C. God's Limited to Doing Only Good Type Free Will:
God is limited to doing only that which is good and right. For God is light and in Him is no darkness at all. God is love and in Him is no evil. He is the very embodiment of all that is Holy, just, perfect, and good in this life. For there is none good but God. In other words, God is incapable of doing any type of evil or sin. He is perfect and good in every way. His limitation is that He can only do that which is good and right. Which of course is a good limitation to have. So praise be to our God for being all that is loving and good.

D. Ultimate or Absolute Free Will:
No being in the universe has absolute or ultimate free will. For if absolute free will existed, then there would have to be a being who could do whatever they wanted whether good or evil with no restrictions or consequences attached whatsoever. In other words, this concept of Free Will is purely imaginary because no being possesses this type of Free Will type characteristics.

In other words, It is not God's will or desire that you sin and reject Him. Yes, you are under His creation, sovereign rule, and divine plan (because the Lord can work both good and evil for His purposes), but God does not approve of someone doing evil as if it was His approved of will or desire for your life. God is good. Not evil.

For the moment you take away free will (not ultimate free will) is the moment you make God responsible for directly creating evil and sin. However, there is no darkness in God at all. God created free willed beings that made the decision to be evil and to sin. God did not force Adam and Eve to rebel. They had a choice to either choose life or to choose death. They chose death. Not because God wanted them to. It was because they wanted to choose death.

TedT said:

All FREE means is our decisions are uncoerced:

IF GOD set it up so HIS new creation had no coercion or constraints upon their choices, forcing them to choose anything, they had free will.

The Elements of a True Free Will Choice:

1. Free will can't be coerced:
Nothing in their created nature could FORCE them to choose love or hate, good or evil, including all genetics...

Nothing in their experience could FORCE them to choose love or hate, good or evil, including all, cultural or familial experience...

Nothing in their understanding or knowledge of reality could FORCE them to choose good or evil, love or hate.

In other words, they had to be completely and truly ingenuously innocent.

[Ref: definition of ingenuous: ingenuousness as: 1. Lacking in cunning, guile, worldliness; artless. 2. Openly straightforward or frank; candid.

2. Consequences must be known but not proved:
The person must understand the full consequences of their choice or it is a guess, not a true choice. “What will happen if I choose left or right, the red pill or the blue pill?” must be answered in full detail.

But "PROOF" of the nature of the consequence would compel or coerce the person to choose what was proven to be the best for them. If the answer “death here,” “life there,” was proven, which would you choose? The weight of knowledge would destroy the effect of a true uncoerced ‘free will’ choice.

If it were proven you would die if you went left, are you truly free to choose to go right? No, you are forced by your knowledge to go right. Therefore they must know, but without proof, the nature of the consequences of their choice.

Only then are they following their desires, their deepest hope in the nature of reality, defining the reality they most hope to enjoy.

Peace, Ted

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Free will is a choice that leads you down a path that determines which road you want to take.

Free Will in the Bible:

#1. Joshua 24:15 KJV -
"Choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve"

#2. Matthew 11:28 KJV -
"Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest."

#3. John 7:17 KJV -
"If anyone wills to do His will, he shall know concerning the doctrine, whether it is from God."

#4. John 7:37 KJV -
"If anyone thirsts, let him come to Me and drink."

#5. Acts 2:38 KJV -
"Repent, and let everyone of you be baptized"

#6. Acts 3:19 KJV -
"Repent therefore and be converted"

#7. Acts 16:31 KJV -
"Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved"

#8. Acts 17:30 KJV -
"but now commands all men everywhere to repent"

#9. Revelation 22:17 KJV -
"Whoever wills, let him take the water of life freely."

#10. Genesis 4:7 KJV -
"If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him."

#11. Revelation 22:17 KJ2
"And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that hears say, Come. And let him that is thirsty come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely."

#12. Luke 13:34 NLT -
"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones God's messengers! How often I have wanted to gather your children together as a hen protects her chicks beneath her wings, but you wouldn't let me.

renniks said:

As it's used here it just means God created him for hell and gave him no other options.

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If you believe in omniscience of God, then you have that problem no matter what your theology is.
Because being omniscient, God knows before he created us what we will choose, and if knowing that we will choose not to believe, he creates us anyway, he is just as surely creating us for hell as you accuse other theologies of proposing.

Clare73 said:

If you believe in omniscience of God, then you have that problem no matter what your theology is.
Because being omniscient, God knows before he created us what we will choose, and if knowing that we will choose not to believe, he creates us anyway, he is just as surely creating us for hell as you accuse other theologies of proposing.

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It’s not monstrous to create a free willed being knowing they will choose a wrong fate (When they could have equally chosen the right path instead). The blame still falls on the creation, and not the Creator. It’s monstrous to suggest God creates life for the express purpose of being punished for sin when they had no other choice to choose otherwise because that would be an injustice. It also maligns the good character of our God in the Bible, as well.

genez said:

They have created a master Robot God.

God in His omniscience takes into account man's freedoms, and decrees what shall be according to that knowledge.

God is not controlling the decision. God is controlling that their decisions will be

God prevents Satan from having too much control. Satan is only a tool.

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Someone has failed to apprehend Romans 9:14-21.

Bible Highlighter said:

Free will is a choice that leads you down a path that determines which road you want to take.
Free Will in the Bible:
#1. Joshua 24:15 KJV -
"Choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve"

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Spoken to the people of God whom God enabled to be his people. Only those who are empowered by God can choose life; i.e., Jesus (John 6:65).

#2. Matthew 11:28 KJV -
"Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest."

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"No one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him." (John 6:65)

#3. John 7:17 KJV -
"If anyone wills to do His will, he shall know concerning the doctrine, whether it is from God."

#4. John 7:37 KJV -
"If anyone thirsts, let him come to Me and drink."

#5. Acts 2:38 KJV -
"Repent, and let everyone of you be baptized"

Click to expand...

#6. Acts 3:19 KJV -
"Repent therefore and be converted"

Click to expand...

Repentance is a gift (2 Timothy 2:25; Acts 11:18, Acts 5:31)

#7. Acts 16:31 KJV -
"Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved"

Click to expand...

Faith is a gift (Philippians 1:29; 2 Peter 1:1; Romans 12:3; Acts 13:48, Acts 18:27).

#8. Acts 17:30 KJV -
"but now commands all men everywhere to repent"

#9. Revelation 22:17 KJV -
"Whoever wills, let him take the water of life freely."

#10. Genesis 4:7 KJV -
"If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him."

#11. Revelation 22:17 KJ2
"And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that hears say, Come. And let him that is thirsty come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely."

#12. Luke 13:34 NLT -
"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones God's messengers! How often I have wanted to gather your children together as a hen protects her chicks beneath her wings, but you wouldn't let me.

Click to expand...

Bible Highlighter said:

It’s not monstrous to create a free willed being knowing they will choose a wrong fate (When they could have equally chosen the right path instead). The blame still falls on the creation, and not the Creator. It’s monstrous to suggest God creates life for the express purpose of being punished for sin when they had no other choice to choose otherwise because that would be an injustice. It also maligns the good character of our God in the Bible, as well.

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That's creating them for hell, which some view as monstrous.
He could have saved them from hell by not creating them, and he chose not to spare them.
You can't have it both ways.

renniks said:

Again, that's not what we mean by free will.
Freedom always has limits. I can not choose to fly to London by flapping my arms. Well I can, but I can not actually do it.
Free will just means no one else is controlling the decision. Even if there's only two choices.
Even if someone has a gun pointed at you, and tells you to do something you still have limited free will. You can choose death instead.
But in Calvinism, God has already controlled every one's decision about him, so there's no free will there.

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Ignorance of Truth can not have a free will. It can only be free to do any wrong it so desires....

Its when one has been shown truth that one is free to accept it. Once accepted (while God's grace is present) that Truth will set you free in the area that Truth covers. Freed from the prison of ignorance.

genez said:

Ignorance of Truth can not have a free will. It can only be free to do any wrong it so desires....

Its when one has been shown truth that one is free to accept it. Once accepted (while God's grace is present) that Truth will set you free in the area that Truth covers. Freed from the prison of ignorance.

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So the real question is the extent of God's grace.

Clare73 said:

If you believe in omniscience of God, then you have that problem no matter what your theology is.
Because being omniscient, God knows before he created us what we will choose, and if knowing that we will choose not to believe, he creates us anyway, he is just as surely creating us for hell as you accuse other theologies of proposing.

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Knowledge and causing is two different things. I can know what someone will do without causing it in any way.

renniks said:

Knowledge and causing is two different things. I can know what someone will do without causing it in any way.

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I didn't say "caused."
If he had the power to keep them from hell, and he chose not to do so, that would be considered as being responsible for their being in hell.

renniks said:

So the real question is the extent of God's grace.

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Making ourselves to the avail of God's grace.....



1 Jn 1:9 is the key to keep the grace pipeline flowing in our lives... It is God's spirit reset switch to use when sin short circuits our fellowship with God, who wants to lead us to full and joyous maturity in Christ.


Arrogance and pride are horrible sins. It causes chain carnality when one insists upon promoting false doctrine. Ironically, they see themselves as pleasing God, confusing their stubbornness for steadfastness and conviction to what they see as the truth. They refuse correction that God will bring their way throughout their lifetime... Unless, a few repent.

renniks said:

Knowledge and causing is two different things. I can know what someone will do without causing it in any way.

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You must have fragmented what I said? I said:

Its when one has been shown truth that one is free to accept it. Once accepted (while God's grace is present) that Truth will set you free in the area that Truth covers. Freed from the prison of ignorance.

When we accept Truth? Its God's grace that will do the work in us. If in fact, we are being controlled by the Spirit.

grace and peace .......

Clare73 said:

I didn't say "caused."
If he had the power to keep them from hell, and he chose not to do so, that would be considered as being responsible for their being in hell.

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So God doesn't have the power to keep them from hell?

genez said:

You must have fragmented what I said? I said:

Its when one has been shown truth that one is free to accept it. Once accepted (while God's grace is present) that Truth will set you free in the area that Truth covers. Freed from the prison of ignorance.

When we accept Truth? Its God's grace that will do the work in us. If in fact, we are being controlled by the Spirit.

"For it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure." Phlpns 2:13
​

grace and peace .......

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I think we agree overall. We just phrase it differently.

Mark Quayle said:

Once again, YOU are not GOD.

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I don't remember saying I was God, so I don't know what that has to do with the subject?

renniks said:

Doesn't the unregenerate have to make a freewill choice to respond to the gospel? It's the same thing.

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The unrepentant cannot make a free will choice - their will is enslaved to sin, not free. They must be the recipient of GOD's grace, the gift of faith, before they can be free of the enslaving addiction to sin.