"Why should I let you into my heaven?"

Bible Highlighter replied in post #216 - "I believe that the Christian needs to be focused on two aspects of salvation over the course of their life. They need to be concerned with trusting in God’s grace (believing the gospel in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4, seeking forgiveness with the Lord Jesus), and Sanctification (living holy by the power of God working through us). Both of these factor into account of Christ’s sacrifice being imputed to them."

If you are implying that any true believer, once justified, will fail in the sanctifying aspect of their salvation, then you have failed to understand the very nature of justification, sanctification, and glorification (i.e. - salvation as a whole). Now, forgive me if I have misunderstood you, and you actually believe that once a person has been justified, they are eternally justified.... it's just simply not what I am perceiving the case to be.

Yes, both justification and sanctification come as the result of Christ's sacrifice being imputed to them (since a person's sanctification cannot begin until they have been justified). However, it's critical to understand that a believer's sanctification is the inevitable (guaranteed) by-product of being placed 'in Christ' (which also occurs only at the point of that person's justification). All who have experienced justification will strive to put off their sinful deeds (not in order to be justified, but because they have been justified).

So why is it that a person's faith, the only means or channel available to receive the benefits of Christ's imputed righteousness, when rightly directed and placed in this gospel truth, will inevitably continue and never be fully extinguished? Simply because the scriptures assure us that all who have experienced justification will also experience sanctification, and all who experience sanctification will ultimately be glorified. Therefore, all who have been justified will be glorified.

Many fail to properly connect and assimilate these three stages of redemption :

Justification refers to the act which declares a person righteous in the sight of God. In Justification we are saved from the penalty of sin. It is past, finished, and as the Greek tenses often show - done once and non repeatable. This is done by grace through the vehicle of faith alone.

This justification comes through imputation. In Romans 4 the word ‘logizomai’ is mentioned 11 times in a classic Pauline and Reformation passage on Justification. ‘Logizomai’ is translated as: imputed, credited, reckoned, accounted.

Romans 4:3,"For what does the say Scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted [‘logizomai’] to him as righteousness." This Scripture is a direct quote from Genesis 15:6 where the Hebrew equivalent ‘chashav’ is used. The idea is that God registered, counted, credited Abrahams faith as righteousness.

Sanctification refers to a separation from sin and the world; and a separation to God and His word. In sanctification we are saved and being saved from the power of sin. Sanctification is past (‘positional’ at salvation) and present continuous (‘progressive’) by the indwelling Holy Spirit from within:

1 Corinthians 6:11,"And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God."

2 Timothy 4:18,"The Lord will rescue me from every evil deed and bring me safely into his heavenly kingdom. To him be the glory forever and ever. Amen." --- The word here, ‘bring me safely’, is the Greek ‘sozo’ - the same word for ‘save’. This work will continue until Glorification:

Philippians 1:6,"And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ."

1 John 3:3,"And everyone who thus hopes in him purifies himself as he is pure"

Glorification is the final step in the application of redemption, that final change and redemption of the body. In glorification we are saved from the presence of sin in us and in the world. 1 Peter 1:9,"receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls.. "these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified."- Romans 8:30.

"1 John 3:2,"Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is.

Ephesians 1:11,12," In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory."

God has predestined or predetermined that all who would place their trust in Christ's atoning work alone as their only hope as being accepted as righteous before God will in fact experience a future glorification. All those who have experienced this justification before God have already been glorified in the eyes of God; they are now simply playing out in real time the intermediate stage of their promised salvation (i.e., sanctification).

If we have trusted in the true Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, the substitute for our sins, and His righteousness alone - in his death burial, resurrection...then justification, sanctification and glorification are a foregone conclusion (Rom.8:28-30; Eph.1:3-14).

Romans 8:29-30,"For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified."


Galatians 2:21,"I do not set aside the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died in vain.”

Hebrews 10:14," For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified."

The sobering question now becomes, "Have you ever truly placed your trust in these paramount gospel truths? All those who have been justified are now in the process of sanctification; and all those who are presently in that process are said to be perfected (positionally) in Christ forever - that is eternally! 1 Corinthians 6:11,"And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God."

Summary :

(1) We must persevere in faith to enter heaven (2 Tim.2:12; Heb.3:14;10:26). Not to persevere is to perish.

(2) God will preserve us in our faith even though at times we may doubt and wander from the path of righteousness. But He will always remain true to his promise by ensuring that none of His children will fall so far as to finally and forever fail. God will preserve us, we will in fact persevere, we will endure in faith.

Jude 1:1-2,"Jude, a bondservant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, To those who are called, sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ:"

1 Thessalonians 5:23-24," Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. He who calls you is faithful, who also will do it."

God doesn't simply require holiness; He promises it to all of His sons and daughters. If you know that you are in fact a child of God, then you can rest knowing that you will persevere. As Dr. Kenneth Keathley said, "perseverance should be viewed more as a promise than a requirement." The necessary conditions/requirements/fruits/works mentioned throughout scripture will be manifested and produced in all true believers by the Holy Spirit. They will exist as the inevitable by-product of the regenerating power of the Holy Spirit and the new nature/heart miraculously delivered at the new birth (John 3:3-8; Titus 3:5).

Guojing said:

So can I conclude your answer is a yes? Your belief is that

Adam's disobedience, that gives death, in the garden was so powerful that, there is only ONE way to get out of it. You have to accept Christ's free gift. Renouncing Satan alone will not result in you forfeiting Adam's gift.

Christ's obedience at the cross, that gives salvation, was less powerful, there are MANY ways to forfeit that salvation. You don't even need to renounce Christ to forfeit that salvation.

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Jesus is the gift. For God so loved the world that He GAVE His only begotten Son (John 3:16).
You have to abide in the Son in order to have eternal life (1 John 5:12), and the Lord does not abide in darkness or sin. For what fellowship does light have with darkness? (See: 2 Corinthians 6:14). A diamond ring can be forfeited by the owner in many ways but it does not make it any less valuable or special. You are creating your own rules and statements to undermine the truth of what the Bible says. Christ’s gift (obedience at the cross) is not any less powerful because there are more ways to lose that gift (With the loss of that gift being blamed upon the free will choice of the individual and not as an accident). Just as a diamond ring can be forfeited by an individual due to their own lack of care in many ways does not reduce the value of it’s worth (power among men). Usually things in life that are difficult to acquire and to keep are considered the most valuable. God does require us to seek after Him. His Word says,

“And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart.” (Jeremiah 29:13).
“…If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.” (John 14:23).
“If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.” (John 15:10).
“He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings…” (John 14:24).
“If anyone does not love the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be accursed.” (1 Corinthians 16:22).
“He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.” (1 John 2:4).

The problem like before is you are not dealing with the verses I put forth here, and you keep repeating a statement not exactly found in Scripture. There is no verse that says exactly what you are saying. So it is your invention of the mind that you want to be true (When it’s not really in the Bible).

Rapture Bound said:

Bible Highlighter replied in post #216 - "I believe that the Christian needs to be focused on two aspects of salvation over the course of their life. They need to be concerned with trusting in God’s grace (believing the gospel in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4, seeking forgiveness with the Lord Jesus), and Sanctification (living holy by the power of God working through us). Both of these factor into account of Christ’s sacrifice being imputed to them."

If you are implying that any true believer, once justified, will fail in the sanctifying aspect of their salvation, then you have failed to understand the very nature of justification, sanctification, and glorification (i.e. - salvation as a whole). Now, forgive me if I have misunderstood you, and you actually believe that once a person has been justified, they are eternally justified.... it's just simply not what I am perceiving the case to be.

Yes, both justification and sanctification come as the result of Christ's sacrifice being imputed to them (since a person's sanctification cannot begin until they have been justified). However, it's critical to understand that a believer's sanctification is the inevitable (guaranteed) by-product of being placed 'in Christ' (which also occurs only at the point of that person's justification). All who have experienced justification will strive to put off their sinful deeds (not in order to be justified, but because they have been justified).

So why is it that a person's faith, the only means or channel available to receive the benefits of Christ's imputed righteousness, when rightly directed and placed in this gospel truth, will inevitably continue and never be fully extinguished? Simply because the scriptures assure us that all who have experienced justification will also experience sanctification, and all who experience sanctification will ultimately be glorified. Therefore, all who have been justified will be glorified.

Many fail to properly connect and assimilate these three stages of redemption :

Justification refers to the act which declares a person righteous in the sight of God. In Justification we are saved from the penalty of sin. It is past, finished, and as the Greek tenses often show - done once and non repeatable. This is done by grace through the vehicle of faith alone.

This justification comes through imputation. In Romans 4 the word ‘logizomai’ is mentioned 11 times in a classic Pauline and Reformation passage on Justification. ‘Logizomai’ is translated as: imputed, credited, reckoned, accounted.

Romans 4:3,"For what does the say Scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted [‘logizomai’] to him as righteousness." This Scripture is a direct quote from Genesis 15:6 where the Hebrew equivalent ‘chashav’ is used. The idea is that God registered, counted, credited Abrahams faith as righteousness.

Sanctification refers to a separation from sin and the world; and a separation to God and His word. In sanctification we are saved and being saved from the power of sin. Sanctification is past (‘positional’ at salvation) and present continuous (‘progressive’) by the indwelling Holy Spirit from within:

1 Corinthians 6:11,"And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God."

2 Timothy 4:18,"The Lord will rescue me from every evil deed and bring me safely into his heavenly kingdom. To him be the glory forever and ever. Amen." --- The word here, ‘bring me safely’, is the Greek ‘sozo’ - the same word for ‘save’. This work will continue until Glorification:

Philippians 1:6,"And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ."

1 John 3:3,"And everyone who thus hopes in him purifies himself as he is pure"

Glorification is the final step in the application of redemption, that final change and redemption of the body. In glorification we are saved from the presence of sin in us and in the world. 1 Peter 1:9,"receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls.. "these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified."- Romans 8:30.

"1 John 3:2,"Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is.

Ephesians 1:11,12," In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory."

God has predestined or predetermined that all who would place their trust in Christ's atoning work alone as their only hope as being accepted as righteous before God will in fact experience a future glorification. All those who have experienced this justification before God have already been glorified in the eyes of God; they are now simply playing out in real time the intermediate stage of their promised salvation (i.e., sanctification).

If we have trusted in the true Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, the substitute for our sins, and His righteousness alone - in his death burial, resurrection...then justification, sanctification and glorification are a foregone conclusion (Rom.8:28-30; Eph.1:3-14).

Romans 8:29-30,"For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified."


Galatians 2:21,"I do not set aside the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died in vain.”

Hebrews 10:14," For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified."

The sobering question now becomes, "Have you ever truly placed your trust in these paramount gospel truths? All those who have been justified are now in the process of sanctification; and all those who are presently in that process are said to be perfected (positionally) in Christ forever - that is eternally! 1 Corinthians 6:11,"And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God."

Summary :

(1) We must persevere in faith to enter heaven (2 Tim.2:12; Heb.3:14;10:26). Not to persevere is to perish.

(2) God will preserve us in our faith even though at times we may doubt and wander from the path of righteousness. But He will always remain true to his promise by ensuring that none of His children will fall so far as to finally and forever fail. God will preserve us, we will in fact persevere, we will endure in faith.

Jude 1:1-2,"Jude, a bondservant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, To those who are called, sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ:"

1 Thessalonians 5:23-24," Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. He who calls you is faithful, who also will do it."

God doesn't simply require holiness; He promises it to all of His sons and daughters. If you know that you are in fact a child of God, then you can rest knowing that you will persevere. As Dr. Kenneth Keathley said, "perseverance should be viewed more as a promise than a requirement." The necessary conditions/requirements/fruits/works mentioned throughout scripture will be manifested and produced in all true believers by the Holy Spirit. They will exist as the inevitable by-product of the regenerating power of the Holy Spirit and the new nature/heart miraculously delivered at the new birth (John 3:3-8; Titus 3:5).

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There is no promise by God whereby He overrides our free will once we have been justified or saved by His grace. The promise for the believer being sanctified by God working in them to live a holy life only applies if the recipient of God’s grace (Justification) is still willing to cooperate with the Lord.

First, you quoted 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24 but you failed to recognize the word “may” is in there two times suggesting a possibility and not a guarantee. For example: If Rick told Bob he may be over his house tomorrow to fix his bike, he would not take that as a guarantee or promise but merely as a possibility. The word “may” suggests a possibility and not a guarantee.

Second, we are told in Scripture:



We are told to:

1. Continue in the grace of God (Acts of the Apostles 13:43).
   
   
2. Continue in the faith (Acts of the Apostles 14:22) (Colossians 1:23).
   
   
3. Continue in his goodness, otherwise we can be cut off (just like the Jews were cut off) (Romans 11:21-22).

These sayings in God’s Word would not exist if things are as you say.

Three, saying that all believers who have been saved by God’s grace will live a holy life at some point implies that a believer never fall away. However, here are several lists of verses that makes it absolutely clear that believers can fall away from the faith:

Here is a General List of Verses on How Believers Can Fall Away:

Now, do not misunderstand me, believers cannot lose their salvation (like they would a pair of car keys), but they can forfeit their salvation (i.e. they can willingly throw it away by rebelling against God). In fact,

Here is a list of believers who have forfeited their salvation:


And here is a list of potential fallen believers:


In fact, Paul is against Eternal Security or a sin and still be saved type belief. For Paul says,

1. We can fall from grace (Galatians 5:4).
   
   
2. We can be moved away from the hope (Colossians 1:23).
   
   
3. We can be a castaway (1 Corinthians 9:27).
   
   
4. We can be cut off just like the Jews if we do not continue in God’s goodness (Romans 11:20-22).
   
   
5. We can sow to the flesh and reap corruption instead of sowing to the Spirit which reaps everlasting life. (Galatians 6:8).
   
   
6. We can deny God by a lack of good works (Titus 1:16).
   
   
7. We can shipwreck our faith (1 Timothy 1:19).
   
   
8. We can deny the faith and be worse than an infidel if we do not provide for our own household (1 Timothy 5:8).
   
   
9. We can err from the faith and pierce ourselves thru with many sorrows if we love and covet after money (1 Timothy 6:10).
   
   
10. Hymnenaeus and Philetus have overthrown the faith of some (2 Timothy 2:18).

Again, these things would not exist in Scripture if things are as you say.

Rapture Bound said:

Many fail to properly connect and assimilate these three stages of redemption :

Justification refers to the act which declares a person righteous in the sight of God. In Justification we are saved from the penalty of sin. It is past, finished, and as the Greek tenses often show - done once and non repeatable. This is done by grace through the vehicle of faith alone.

This justification comes through imputation. In Romans 4 the word ‘logizomai’ is mentioned 11 times in a classic Pauline and Reformation passage on Justification. ‘Logizomai’ is translated as: imputed, credited, reckoned, accounted.

Romans 4:3,"For what does the say Scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted [‘logizomai’] to him as righteousness." This Scripture is a direct quote from Genesis 15:6 where the Hebrew equivalent ‘chashav’ is used. The idea is that God registered, counted, credited Abrahams faith as righteousness.

Click to expand...

So would this include future sin?
Meaning, do you believe that if a believer were to lie, or look upon another in lust, they are still saved?

You said:

Sanctification refers to a separation from sin and the world; and a separation to God and His word. In sanctification we are saved and being saved from the power of sin. Sanctification is past (‘positional’ at salvation) and present continuous (‘progressive’) by the indwelling Holy Spirit from within:

1 Corinthians 6:11,"And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God."

Click to expand...

The word “sanctified” in 1 Corinthians 6:11 is not referring to Progressive Sanctification Process (Which deals with our salvation). It simply means to be made holy as a part of when we first came to God when we were saved by His grace (i.e. Believing the gospel in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4, seeking forgiveness with Jesus, and inviting Christ to come into our life and be our Savior). It does not mean we cannot fall away later and die spiritually due to unconfessed grievous sin in our lives and or in not desiring to follow Jesus anymore.

You said:

2 Timothy 4:18,"The Lord will rescue me from every evil deed and bring me safely into his heavenly kingdom. To him be the glory forever and ever. Amen." --- The word here, ‘bring me safely’, is the Greek ‘sozo’ - the same word for ‘save’. This work will continue until Glorification:

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This promise only applies if you apply the conditions in being faithful yourself. God is not going to force us to be faithful. Sure, God gives us a new heart with new desires. God may nudge us in the right direction sometimes, but He does not force us to be a certain way against our own free will. If you were to look at the context of 2 Timothy 4:18, we also read:

“Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.” (2 Timothy 2:2-4).

So as we can see that by our preaching other believers may not endure sound doctrine and they can turn away their ears away from the truth (i.e. the truth of the Word). So these believers did not endure sound doctrine. They did not finish the race. They did not fight the good fight of faith.

For Paul says in context, “I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith: Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness,…” (2 Timothy 4:7-8).

We see that Paul says that “I have fought a good fight.” Repeat those words out loud to yourself. Paul says…. I. I have fought the good fight. So it’s not just God forcing us to be a certain way. We have to do our part, too. We have to FIGHT the good fight of faith just as Paul had done.

“Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses.” (1 Timothy 6:12).

We are commanded to fight the good fight of faith in order to lay on eternal life. So it’s not a walk in the park. You have to fight.

You said:

Philippians 1:6,"And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ."

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Again, this verse is isolated from the rest of Scripture and the requirements God expects of us. God can do a good work in us, but we have to do our part, too (In order for that to happen). For while God can work in us to do of His good will and pleasure (Philippians 2:13), we also have to work out our salvation with fear, and trembling, too (Philippians 2:12).
We are to draw near to God and He will draw near to us (James 4:8).
The double minded our to purify their hearts (James 4:8).

You said:

1 John 3:3,"And everyone who thus hopes in him purifies himself as he is pure"

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This is referring to a believer’s present tense moment in abiding in Christ. It does not negate the possibility that they may not later fall away due to sin or fall away by not wanting to follow Jesus passionately anymore.

Romans 8:29-30,"For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified."

Click to expand...

This passage is talking about those who are glorified in the end. It does not preclude those who may have once been justified, and predestined but did not make it. Also, the word “justified” in Romans 8:30 is in reference to the same truth established in James 2:24. James says we are justified by works and not by faith alone. This is because works is a part of the faith. For faith without works is dead (James 2:17). A person’s faith is made perfect by their works (James 2:22). So you cannot have a perfect faith without works. That is because there is a symbiotic relationship between the two. That’s where get the word “faithful” from. In fact, James says he will show you his faith by his works (James 2:18).

You said:

Hebrews 10:14," For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified."

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The King James does not say being sanctified. It simply says sanctified and the word “being” is not in the verse. So God has forever perfected those who have been sanctified past tense from God’s perspective on looking back in time at those who have successfully went through the Sanctification Process. But only God can know who those people are. We have to work out our salvation with fear and trembling (Philippians 2:12). We have to follow after holiness without which no man shall see the Lord (Hebrews 12:14). God is not going to do the following for us. That is our part we have to do.

A_Thinker said:

Everyone does not believe. Unbelief is pragmatically unforgivable ...

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Yes, I agree, and not believing the words of Jesus in Him telling us to obey Him falls under not being forgiven or saved, as well. All of our New Testament is a part of the faith. Jesus says if we do not receive His words, those words will judge us on the last day (John 12:48).

“And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.” (Acts of the Apostles 3:23). That prophet is Jesus (see verse 20).

Jesus says everyone who does not do what He says is like a fool who built His house upon the sand and when a storm came, great was the fall of that house (Matthew 7:26-27).

A_Thinker said:

Sin paid is atonement.

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Well, I believe the sin paid at the cross was provisional. The whole world’s sins were paid for provisionally (except for those in Revelation 13:8, and, or Revelation 17:8). But that does not mean the whole world is saved. Certain conditions need to met in order for the atonement to be applied personally to a person’s life whereby they would be saved.

Side Note:

I see the Provisional Atonement like someone paying the price to cancel out your debts, and then they write you a check. However, it is up to you to cash the check, and pay off those you are in debt to in order to be truly debt free.

You said:

Sin forgiven restores fellowship.

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There is no such verse or passage in Scripture that teaches that sin merely causes a break in fellowship only and it does not cause a loss of salvation. Fellowship with the Lord is the source of our salvation. Just read 1 John 5:12 for starters. If you need more verses, I can provide that for you.

A_Thinker said:

All believers build onto the building of God.

1 Peter 2

4 As you come to him, the living Stone—rejected by men but chosen by God and precious to him— 5 you also, like living stones, are being built into a spiritual house to be a holy priesthood, offering spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.

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All believers are a part of the building materials of God’s building. But only those faithful builders (God’s building) who do not justify sin will withstand the fire of judgment in the end. Believers who justify sins like strife and envy will not inherit the Kingdom of God (not be saved) (Galatians 5:19-20). The gospel planter or souls winner will be saved through the fire themselves if they are faithful. But their work are the people they brought to Christ may not make it into the Kingdom if they later turn out to justify sin in their life.

Don’t believe me?

Just read again Matthew 13:41-42 and tremble.

At the Judgment: Matthew 13:41-42 says that the Son of man (JESUS) will send forth his angels and they will gather out of HIS KINGDOM all things that offend and those who do iniquity (sin) and they will be cast into the furnace of fire (the Lake of Fire).


In other words, a believer can be in HIS KINGDOM now, and later be cast out into the lake of fire at the judgment on account of their doing iniquity (i.e. justifying sin). How you skate around this plain reading of Scripture is beyond me. I just read it, and believe it. But I don’t believe you can do that because it would contradict what you want to be true.

Rapture Bound said:

Bible Highlighter replied in post #216 - "I believe that the Christian needs to be focused on two aspects of salvation over the course of their life. They need to be concerned with trusting in God’s grace (believing the gospel in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4, seeking forgiveness with the Lord Jesus), and Sanctification (living holy by the power of God working through us). Both of these factor into account of Christ’s sacrifice being imputed to them."

If you are implying that any true believer, once justified, will fail in the sanctifying aspect of their salvation, then you have failed to understand the very nature of justification, sanctification, and glorification (i.e. - salvation as a whole). Now, forgive me if I have misunderstood you, and you actually believe that once a person has been justified, they are eternally justified.... it's just simply not what I am perceiving the case to be.

Yes, both justification and sanctification come as the result of Christ's sacrifice being imputed to them (since a person's sanctification cannot begin until they have been justified). However, it's critical to understand that a believer's sanctification is the inevitable (guaranteed) by-product of being placed 'in Christ' (which also occurs only at the point of that person's justification). All who have experienced justification will strive to put off their sinful deeds (not in order to be justified, but because they have been justified).

So why is it that a person's faith, the only means or channel available to receive the benefits of Christ's imputed righteousness, when rightly directed and placed in this gospel truth, will inevitably continue and never be fully extinguished? Simply because the scriptures assure us that all who have experienced justification will also experience sanctification, and all who experience sanctification will ultimately be glorified. Therefore, all who have been justified will be glorified.

Many fail to properly connect and assimilate these three stages of redemption :

Justification refers to the act which declares a person righteous in the sight of God. In Justification we are saved from the penalty of sin. It is past, finished, and as the Greek tenses often show - done once and non repeatable. This is done by grace through the vehicle of faith alone.

This justification comes through imputation. In Romans 4 the word ‘logizomai’ is mentioned 11 times in a classic Pauline and Reformation passage on Justification. ‘Logizomai’ is translated as: imputed, credited, reckoned, accounted.

Romans 4:3,"For what does the say Scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted [‘logizomai’] to him as righteousness." This Scripture is a direct quote from Genesis 15:6 where the Hebrew equivalent ‘chashav’ is used. The idea is that God registered, counted, credited Abrahams faith as righteousness.

Sanctification refers to a separation from sin and the world; and a separation to God and His word. In sanctification we are saved and being saved from the power of sin. Sanctification is past (‘positional’ at salvation) and present continuous (‘progressive’) by the indwelling Holy Spirit from within:

1 Corinthians 6:11,"And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God."

2 Timothy 4:18,"The Lord will rescue me from every evil deed and bring me safely into his heavenly kingdom. To him be the glory forever and ever. Amen." --- The word here, ‘bring me safely’, is the Greek ‘sozo’ - the same word for ‘save’. This work will continue until Glorification:

Philippians 1:6,"And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ."

1 John 3:3,"And everyone who thus hopes in him purifies himself as he is pure"

Glorification is the final step in the application of redemption, that final change and redemption of the body. In glorification we are saved from the presence of sin in us and in the world. 1 Peter 1:9,"receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls.. "these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified."- Romans 8:30.

"1 John 3:2,"Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is.

Ephesians 1:11,12," In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory."

God has predestined or predetermined that all who would place their trust in Christ's atoning work alone as their only hope as being accepted as righteous before God will in fact experience a future glorification. All those who have experienced this justification before God have already been glorified in the eyes of God; they are now simply playing out in real time the intermediate stage of their promised salvation (i.e., sanctification).

If we have trusted in the true Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, the substitute for our sins, and His righteousness alone - in his death burial, resurrection...then justification, sanctification and glorification are a foregone conclusion (Rom.8:28-30; Eph.1:3-14).

Romans 8:29-30,"For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified."


Galatians 2:21,"I do not set aside the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died in vain.”

Hebrews 10:14," For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified."

The sobering question now becomes, "Have you ever truly placed your trust in these paramount gospel truths? All those who have been justified are now in the process of sanctification; and all those who are presently in that process are said to be perfected (positionally) in Christ forever - that is eternally! 1 Corinthians 6:11,"And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God."

Summary :

(1) We must persevere in faith to enter heaven (2 Tim.2:12; Heb.3:14;10:26). Not to persevere is to perish.

(2) God will preserve us in our faith even though at times we may doubt and wander from the path of righteousness. But He will always remain true to his promise by ensuring that none of His children will fall so far as to finally and forever fail. God will preserve us, we will in fact persevere, we will endure in faith.

Jude 1:1-2,"Jude, a bondservant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, To those who are called, sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ:"

1 Thessalonians 5:23-24," Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. He who calls you is faithful, who also will do it."

God doesn't simply require holiness; He promises it to all of His sons and daughters. If you know that you are in fact a child of God, then you can rest knowing that you will persevere. As Dr. Kenneth Keathley said, "perseverance should be viewed more as a promise than a requirement." The necessary conditions/requirements/fruits/works mentioned throughout scripture will be manifested and produced in all true believers by the Holy Spirit. They will exist as the inevitable by-product of the regenerating power of the Holy Spirit and the new nature/heart miraculously delivered at the new birth (John 3:3-8; Titus 3:5).

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In addition, if God promises holiness beyond our free will, and He does not require it, then why does the majority of my New Testament command me to be holy in many places?

See: Hebrews 12:14, 1 Peter 1:16, 2 Corinthians 7:1, 1 Timothy 6:11, Galatians 5:16, Ephesians 4:17-32, 2 Timothy 2:22, Ephesians 4:1-3, etc.

Reply to Bible Highlighter - posts #242 thru #248 :

I'm sure you're aware that we could quite easily go "round and round" endlessly in circles here, since we approach the issue from very different perspectives. It appears to me that we really need to go straight to the root or origin of the dilemma.

It's apparent that much of the mindset of the perpetual eternal insecurity of the believer can be traced back to a person's denial or misunderstanding of the forensic justification (i.e. - the righteousness of Christ being imputed or credited to those who place their faith in Christ's atoning work).

Do you believe in the forensic justification of the believer (as held to by the Reformers in the Protestant Reformation) - 'imputed righteousness'? , or, do you deny it and believe the Reformers were in error and the Roman Catholic Church really had it right?

Perhaps you are one of those who hold to the forensic justification of the believer, but also assert that although a believer initially is justified by grace through faith alone, from that point on there are added conditions that are essential in order to maintain or retain their salvation....
or another way of stating it....'get saved one way.... stay saved another.'

Do we originally place all our faith in Christ's righteousness being credited to us, and then from that point on, believe we must compliment that imputed righteousness with some of our own? Although the denial of forensic justification was charged against the Roman Catholic hierarchy at the time of the Reformation, at least the Roman Catholic Church stayed consistent in it's heresy by denying this imputation through and through; but this new 'hybrid theology', propagated by non-Roman Catholic sources has virtually erased the doctrine of the believer's assurance of salvation that is promised in Scripture, as well as preventing many from entering into that salvation. In other words, Roman Catholic theology frontloads and backloads their false teaching, while the non-Catholics 'hybrid theology' simply backloads it.

Rapture Bound said:

Reply to Bible Highlighter - posts #242 thru #248 :

I'm sure you're aware that we could quite easily go "round and round" endlessly in circles here, since we approach the issue from very different perspectives. It appears to me that we really need to go straight to the root or origin of the dilemma.

It's apparent that much of the mindset of the perpetual eternal insecurity of the believer can be traced back to a person's denial or misunderstanding of the forensic justification (i.e. - the righteousness of Christ being imputed or credited to those who place their faith in Christ's atoning work).

Do you believe in the forensic justification of the believer (as held to by the Reformers in the Protestant Reformation) - 'imputed righteousness'? , or, do you deny it and believe the Reformers were in error and the Roman Catholic Church really had it right?

Perhaps you are one of those who hold to the forensic justification of the believer, but also assert that although a believer initially is justified by grace through faith alone, from that point on there are added conditions that are essential in order to maintain or retain their salvation....
or another way of stating it....'get saved one way.... stay saved another.'

Do we originally place all our faith in Christ's righteousness being credited to us, and then from that point on, believe we must compliment that imputed righteousness with some of our own? Although the denial of forensic justification was charged against the Roman Catholic hierarchy at the time of the Reformation, at least the Roman Catholic Church stayed consistent in it's heresy by denying this imputation through and through; but this new 'hybrid theology', propagated by non-Roman Catholic sources has virtually erased the doctrine of the believer's assurance of salvation that is promised in Scripture, as well as preventing many from entering into that salvation. In other words, Roman Catholic theology frontloads and backloads their false teaching, while the non-Catholics 'hybrid theology' simply backloads it.

Click to expand...

As for the Reformers:

Well, John Wesley was a Reformer and he believed that a once saved saved believer can fall away from the faith and die spiritually in the end.

eternal security - Perseverance - John Wesley

As for Justification:

I believe in the Bible’s version of Justification. In fact, I prefer the term, being saved by “God’s Grace Through Faith in Jesus Christ as the Savior.” I prefer this term because the Bible says we are “justified” by works and faith (James 2:24).

God's Grace Through Faith in Jesus Christ as the Savior
(Initial Salvation, and or Foundational Salvation).
(The 1st synergistic work of GOD done in a believer).
Being saved by God's grace through faith in Jesus as ones Savior is the entrance gate to salvation, and it is the foundation of our salvation (by faith) upon which we stand. Being saved by God's grace is believing the gospel (Which is the power of God unto salvation to everyone who believes it - Romans 1:16). According to 1 Corinthians 15:1-4: The gospel is you believing that Jesus Christ died for your sins, He was buried, and He had risen again three days later for your salvation (Note: Do not let anyone sell you on another gospel besides this one). Depending on a person’s access or exposure to the Word: Being saved by God's grace will also generally include receiving Jesus as your Savior (John 1:12), and calling upon the name of the Lord (i.e. confessing with your mouth the words: “Lord Jesus” or similar equivalent - Romans 10:9) as a part of seeking forgiveness of your sins with Him by way of prayer (Romans 10:13) (Luke 15:18-21) (Luke 18:9-14). This process of salvation is without the deeds of the Law or works because it is based upon God’s mercy and grace and His redemptive work. As a result: One is born again spiritually (Note: Born again by the Spirit, and born again by water (i.e. the Scriptures - Romans 10:17, 1 Peter 1:23)). A person is foundationally or ultimately saved by God’s grace because if they happen to sin on rare occasion in their Christian walk, they do not do a good work to absolve that sin, but they confess of their sins to Jesus in order to be forgiven of that sin (1 John 1:9) (1 John 2:1) (Hebrews 4:16) (For verses on being saved by God's grace, see: Ephesians 2:8-9, Romans 4:1-6, Titus 3:4-7, 1 Corinthians 15:1-4, Luke 18:9-14, Romans 5:1-2).

What being saved by God’s grace is not is a license to sin. Meaning, we cannot say future sin is forgiven us because not only does the Bible not teach that, but because it sets up a possible scenario for the believer to think they can sin and still be saved (Which is pure darkness and evil to say the least). To not understand this is to not understand basic morality - IMO. To say that we can commit grievous sin and be saved while doing so is a monstrous doctrine at best. It has led men like John MacArthur to declare that believers can commit suicide and still be saved. It has led a man named George Sodini to murder a bunch of people and to turn the gun on himself all with him thinking that he was saved by having a belief alone in Jesus. For the sin and still be saved belief makes one’s actions like that of the devil and yet they have rights to the Kingdom of God? Surely not. For God is good and fair and just in everything He does. This is why God’s Word teaches…

Sanctification of the Spirit to Live a Holy Life
(The Next Step or Phase in the Salvation Process).
(The 2nd synergistic work of God done in a believer).
Sanctification of the Spirit to Live a Holy Life is the next step or phase in Salvation for a believer who lives out their faith; This is the work of God moving in a believer's life so as to help them to live holy, and to do good works and to put away the lusts of the flesh. These good works are the works of God done through the believer, and so all boasting or praise is given to the Lord. Therefore, there is no boasting in one's own work because they are ultimately the works of God done through the believer. A believer today who obeys the Lord looks to the commands of Jesus and His followers within the New Testament primarily. For believers today are not under the 613 Laws of Moses as a whole package deal (even though certain laws have carried over into the New Testament). Basically all ceremonial laws and judicial laws in the Old Testament no longer apply. For example: Believers do not have to keep the Saturday Sabbath, circumcision, dietary laws, animal sacrifices, holy days, etc.; However, believers must keep God's Moral Laws like: Do not murder, do not steal, do not covet, do not lie, do commit adultery, etc.; Two of the greatest commands that we should focus on daily is to love God and love our neighbor which is more fully described in Mark 12:29-31. We need to worship or adore the Lord our God, preach the gospel, help the poor, love the brethren, love our enemies, and live holy lives, etc. (For Sanctification verses, see: James 2:24, James 2:17-18, Titus 1:16, Hebrews 5:9, 2 Thessalonians 2:13, Hebrews 12:14, Romans 8:1 (KJV), 1 Corinthians 16:22, Romans 8:13, etc.).

As for Roman Catholicism:

I am for the “Bible Alone + The Anointing to Understand It.” So that rules me out as being Catholic, Orthodox, etc.; In fact, I am not a fan of any added teachings, doctrines, books, church confessions, etc. to the Holy Bible. I believe in the circa. 1900 Cambridge Edition King James Bible is the pure Word of God and it should not be added to. I believe Catholicism is seriously unbiblical because they pray to Mary, and the dead saints, they bow down to statues, uplift men in being more religious because of a position and the holy costumes they wear, and for the insane amount of wealth it possesses, etc. No traditions should be added to the Bible. Period. But guilt by association is not always true. If the Bible teaches works and or holy living as a part of the Sanctification Process by the Spirit is necessary aspect of the salvation equation (after one is saved by God’s grace), then we have to accept that truth whether we like it or not (even if it goes against everything we learned and even if it means we alienate Christian friends we know).

Rapture Bound said:

Reply to Bible Highlighter - posts #242 thru #248 :

I'm sure you're aware that we could quite easily go "round and round" endlessly in circles here, since we approach the issue from very different perspectives. It appears to me that we really need to go straight to the root or origin of the dilemma.

It's apparent that much of the mindset of the perpetual eternal insecurity of the believer can be traced back to a person's denial or misunderstanding of the forensic justification (i.e. - the righteousness of Christ being imputed or credited to those who place their faith in Christ's atoning work).

Do you believe in the forensic justification of the believer (as held to by the Reformers in the Protestant Reformation) - 'imputed righteousness'? , or, do you deny it and believe the Reformers were in error and the Roman Catholic Church really had it right?

Perhaps you are one of those who hold to the forensic justification of the believer, but also assert that although a believer initially is justified by grace through faith alone, from that point on there are added conditions that are essential in order to maintain or retain their salvation....
or another way of stating it....'get saved one way.... stay saved another.'

Do we originally place all our faith in Christ's righteousness being credited to us, and then from that point on, believe we must compliment that imputed righteousness with some of our own? Although the denial of forensic justification was charged against the Roman Catholic hierarchy at the time of the Reformation, at least the Roman Catholic Church stayed consistent in it's heresy by denying this imputation through and through; but this new 'hybrid theology', propagated by non-Roman Catholic sources has virtually erased the doctrine of the believer's assurance of salvation that is promised in Scripture, as well as preventing many from entering into that salvation. In other words, Roman Catholic theology frontloads and backloads their false teaching, while the non-Catholics 'hybrid theology' simply backloads it.

Click to expand...

The Bible plainly teaches that…

After we are saved by God's grace,
God’s works (done through us) are also required as a part of the Salvation Process:


(Here are a List of Verses):


#1. “Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." (James 2:24).

#2. "Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.” (James 2:17-18).

#3. "They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." (Titus 1:16).

#4. "If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; He is proud, knowing nothing," (1 Timothy 6:3-4).


#5. "And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him." (Hebrews 5:9).

#6. "Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord" (Hebrews 12:14).

#7. “...God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth” (2 Thessalonians 2:13).


#8. “There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.” (Romans 8:1).


#9. "If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema [accursed] Maranatha."(1 Corinthians 16:22).

#10. ”And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou? And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself. And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.” (Luke 10:25-28).

#11. “...if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.” (Matthew 19:17-19).

#12. "And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me." (Matthew 10:38). ”If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? (Matthew 16:24-26).

#13. "...No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God." (Luke 9:62) (cf. Luke 8:11-15, 1 Corinthians 4:15).

#14. "But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no respect of persons with God." (Romans 2:8-11).


#15. “And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.” (John 5:29).

#16. ”And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.” (Revelation 22:12-15).

#17. “For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.” (Romans 11:21-22).

#18. “Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.” (Philippians 2:12-13).

#19. ”Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.” (Matthew 25:34-40).
“Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.” (Matthew 25:41-46).

#20. ”His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.” (Matthew 25:21).
”And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” (Matthew 25:30).

#21. “In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.” (1 John 3:10).

#22. “He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God” (John 8:47).

#23. “But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.” (1 John 1:7) (cf. 1 John 2:9-11).

#24. “For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.” (Matthew 5:20).

#25. “Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.” (Matthew 7:24-27).

#26. “Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.” (Matthew 7:21).

#27. “And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet [Jesus], shall be destroyed from among the people.” (Acts of the Apostles 3:23).

#28. “I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.’ (John 15:5-6).


#29. “And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear? Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.” (1 Peter 4:18-19).

#30. “For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.” (Galatians 6:8-9).

Rapture Bound said:

Reply to Bible Highlighter - posts #242 thru #248 :

I'm sure you're aware that we could quite easily go "round and round" endlessly in circles here, since we approach the issue from very different perspectives. It appears to me that we really need to go straight to the root or origin of the dilemma.

It's apparent that much of the mindset of the perpetual eternal insecurity of the believer can be traced back to a person's denial or misunderstanding of the forensic justification (i.e. - the righteousness of Christ being imputed or credited to those who place their faith in Christ's atoning work).

Do you believe in the forensic justification of the believer (as held to by the Reformers in the Protestant Reformation) - 'imputed righteousness'? , or, do you deny it and believe the Reformers were in error and the Roman Catholic Church really had it right?

Perhaps you are one of those who hold to the forensic justification of the believer, but also assert that although a believer initially is justified by grace through faith alone, from that point on there are added conditions that are essential in order to maintain or retain their salvation....
or another way of stating it....'get saved one way.... stay saved another.'

Do we originally place all our faith in Christ's righteousness being credited to us, and then from that point on, believe we must compliment that imputed righteousness with some of our own? Although the denial of forensic justification was charged against the Roman Catholic hierarchy at the time of the Reformation, at least the Roman Catholic Church stayed consistent in it's heresy by denying this imputation through and through; but this new 'hybrid theology', propagated by non-Roman Catholic sources has virtually erased the doctrine of the believer's assurance of salvation that is promised in Scripture, as well as preventing many from entering into that salvation. In other words, Roman Catholic theology frontloads and backloads their false teaching, while the non-Catholics 'hybrid theology' simply backloads it.

Click to expand...

You also said you were addressing post #248, but your reply is not actually dealing with the problem you presented. The verses I shown proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that God’s Word does require us to persevere or endure in the faith and it is not God making a promise that He will force Himself upon us so that we will endure to the end. We have to choose of our own free will to endure or be with God. Otherwise such admonishments in Scripture would not make any sense.

Granted, I am not expecting you to address all the verses I presented from posts #242 through #248, but I least expect you to deal with some of them. Please explain a few to prove that what you say is the truth.

Thank you, and may the Lord bless you and your family (even if we disagree strongly on Scripture).

Bible Highlighter said:

At the Judgment: Matthew 13:41-42 says that the Son of man (JESUS) will send forth his angels and they will gather out of HIS KINGDOM all things that offend and those who do iniquity (sin) and they will be cast into the furnace of fire (the Lake of Fire).

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Once again, this is part of Christ's explanation of His parable of the wheat and the tares ...

Matthew 13

36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.

37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;

38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;

39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.

40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.

41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;

42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Bible Highlighter said:

Just read again Matthew 13:41-42 and tremble.

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1 John 4:18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear: because fear hath torment. He that fears is not made perfect in love.

Bible Highlighter said:

A diamond ring can be forfeited by the owner in many ways but it does not make it any less valuable or special.

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I am not making a comment on whether which is more valuable or special, but merely which is more powerful.

Quoting your words above, you are implying that, if Jesus's gift is the diamond ring, you can forfeit in many ways, but for Adam's gift, there is only ONE way to forfeit it.

You still don't realize that, with regards to Romans 5:12-17, with that thinking, you are implying that Adam's disobedience in the garden was more powerful than Jesus's obedience at the cross?

Guojing said:

I am not making a comment on whether which is more valuable or special, but merely which is more powerful.

Quoting your words above, you are implying that, if Jesus's gift is the diamond ring, you can forfeit in many ways, but for Adam's gift, there is only ONE way to forfeit it.

You still don't realize that, with regards to Romans 5:12-17, with that thinking, you are implying that Adam's disobedience in the garden was more powerful than Jesus's obedience at the cross?

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But do you have a passage saying it exactly the way you are saying it? No. Sure, you can make implications by Romans 5:12-17 but that is not the same thing as the Bible saying the same words you are saying. Besides, your point here is moot because you are not dealing with the truth of the verses I presented that demolishes that idea to begin with. Somebody can dislike certain truths in the Bible but it does not matter because they still hold to be true (regardless of a person’s acceptance of them or not). I believe that is what you are doing. You have to cut out all the verses on falling away, Sanctification for salvation, and how sin can separate a believer from God to make your belief work. You keep repeating a point in your own words (not the Bible’s words) to divert away from the points I made with verses that speak all on their own against the kind of belief that your trying to sell here. But I am not buying it because there are too many verses as a witness against it, and it also is a violation of basic morality, as well.

A_Thinker said:

41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of
his kingdom
all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;

42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

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Yes, they are tares. I never said otherwise. But it still does not change what is said in verse 41. I am going to bold the words in red again and underline them to help you to see what the passage is saying again.

So okay. Verse 41 basically says that the Son of man’s angels will gather out of HIS KINGDOM.

His Kingdom.
His Kingdom.
His Kingdom.

Who’s kingdom?

This would be Christ’s kingdom.
The Son of Man’s Kingdom.
The tares are gathered out of Christ’s kingdom.
These would be believers who justified sin.
We see it in the Bible.
2 Timothy 3:1-9.
They are those who have a form of godliness but they deny the power thereof.
They are lovers of pleasure more than lovers of God.
These are those who turn God’s grace into a license to sin or immorality (Jude 1:4).
Just Google the key words George Sodini OSAS. I know you are Free Will Baptist, and you don’t believe in OSAS, but the point here is that Sodini thought he could sin and still be saved. He learned from his pastor that he could murder and still be in God’s Kingdom. These are the types who are in Christ’s Kingdom because they think believe they are for Christ’s Kingdom, but they are not going to make it because they justified sin. They will be gathered out of HIS Kingdom and thrown into the furnace of fire (i.e. the lake of fire). These are they who believe in another Jesus.

MMXX said:

If you were to stand before God and he were to ask you, "Why should I let you into my heaven?", what would you say?

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This is one of those questions I've heard use a lot of times as a teaching tool--the point of the exercise is to recognize that we don't deserve our salvation--God saves us purely by His grace.

To understand grace is to understand that God is not, in fact, the One who stands before us asking, "Why should I let you into My heaven?"; but rather He's the One who brings heaven to us. This is the God whose love and kindness is poured out for the world, through Jesus Christ who gave His life for us.

Jesus tells us what God's grace looks like when He tells us about the father of the prodigal son who rushes out, runs toward his son. The son who had been there living among the pigs and who had set in his heart that he would return to his father's house not as a son, but as a slave. But when he shows up, his father will not have any of that. He celebrates the return of his son, he throws a party, he will only have the best for his beloved son.

That's grace. In our works we stand before God naked and ashamed, full of sin and death. Beggars with empty hands. We can only, weakly, say "Lord, I am an unworthy servant."

But look to God in faith, look to Christ the only-begotten Son of the Father, who shows us the friendly face and heart of the Father so abundantly poured out for us.

And so we enter the Threshold by the blood of the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world. And by nothing else can we stand within the Holy of Holies.

So my answer to the question is two-fold:

1) We have communion with God, both in this life and the life that is to come, solely by His grace; by the peace which Christ has established through His shed blood.

2) We must recognize that God isn't the kind of God who would ask this kind of question: our Lord tells us what His Father is like. A God who rushes out to meet sinful, shameful beggars and wrap them tightly with the pure white robes of righteousness--the righteousness of His Son, in whom we are ourselves adopted as sons and daughters.

The only thing deeper than the cruel and miserable depths of our sin is the depth of God's loving kindness toward us sinners in Jesus Christ our Lord.

-CryptoLutheran

Bible Highlighter said:

But do you have a passage saying it exactly the way you are saying it? No. Sure, you can make implications by Romans 5:12-17 but that is not the same thing as the Bible saying the same words you are saying. Besides, your point here is moot because you are not dealing with the truth of the verses I presented that demolishes that idea to begin with. Somebody can dislike certain truths in the Bible but it does not matter because they still hold to be true (regardless of a person’s acceptance of them or not). I believe that is what you are doing. You have to cut out all the verses on falling away, Sanctification for salvation, and how sin can separate a believer from God to make your belief work. You keep repeating a point in your own words (not the Bible’s words) to divert away from the points I made with verses that speak all on their own against the kind of belief that your trying to sell here. But I am not buying it because there are too many verses as a witness against it, and it also is a violation of basic morality, as well.

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Read my post carefully, I am not claiming there is scripture that is saying that.

I am saying, what you believe in, you are implying that.

If you truly believe what you are claiming to believe, then have the confidence to say, "Yes, I believe Adam's disobedience in the garden was more powerful than Christ's obedience at the cross".

I will respect your position more if you were to state it clearly, even though I might disagree with it.

A_Thinker said:

1 John 4:18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear: because fear hath torment. He that fears is not made perfect in love.

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And how do you perfect love according to the Bible so as to cast out fear?


In fact, the person who says they know the Lord and they do not keep His commandments, they are a liar, and the truth is not in them.


Jesus says:


So we love the Lord by obeying Him;
And Paul says if any man loves not the Lord, let him be accursed.


Are accursed people saved?

Surely not.