WHY SALVATION CAN BE LOST

LoveGodsWord · Oct 26, 2021

Doug Brents said:
The New Covenant is not a list of “Do this”s, and “Don’t do that”s. It is written on the hearts of those who belong Christ; as opposed to the Old covenant that was spoken directly by God to individuals until it was written on stone.

No one said it was. Which comes back to the question I was asking you. According to the scriptures, Jesus came to magnify the law from the inside out quoting Matthew 5:17-32 (thoughts and feelings) in fulfillment of *Isaiah 42:21. this is to show that unless our righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the Scribes and Pharisees we can in no way enter into the kingdom of heaven. Jesus is saying the problem runs deeper then outward observance to the 10 commandments. Evil begins in the heart. According to the scriptures, breaking God's 10 commandments from the heart is what defiles a man *Matthew 15:18-19. Jesus is saying we can be outwardly perfect and blameless like the Scribes and Pharisees but inwardly like dead mans bones *Matthew 23:27-28. Jesus magnified the law to the inside out to show us that we are all sinners in need of a Saviour and that sin originates in the heart (thoughts and feelings). That is why we have the new covenant promise and need to be born again by faith in God's word for salvation to be free from sin (breaking any one of god's 10 commandments) *Hebrews 8:10-12; 1 John 3:3-10.

If we are not born again into the new covenant promise and continue in it we will not enter the kingdom of Heaven *1 John 2:3-4; 1 John 2:3-4. As shown earlier from the scriptures, all those who knowingly break any one of God's 10 commandments stand guilty before God of sin *James 2:10-11. All those who knowingly continue in unrepentant sin will not enter into God's Kingdom *Hebrews 10:26-27 because they reject the gift of God's dear son *Romans 6:23. God's 4th Commandment is one of the 10 Commandments that give us the knowledge of what sin is. There is no such thing as the 9 commandments in God's Word. The same as there is no scripture that says God's 4th commandment is Abolished and we are now commanded to keep Sunday as a Holy day.

According to the scriptures true righteousness comes from obedience to God's Word through love and it is through a new heart in God's new covenant promise to love that we are made free from sin to believe and follow what Gods' Word says and love is expressed through obedience to Gods' law, not by breaking Gods law as shown in Romans 13:8-10. According to the scriptures he that does not love does not know God for god is love * 1 John 4:8. All those who are born again have a new heart to love and follow God *1 John 4:7. This is the meaning of God's new covenant promise *Hebrews 8:10-12.

Those who are born again to love according to the scriptures do not practice sin (breaking God's Commandments) *1 John 3:4-9. This is why John finishes on this subject by saying; For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous *1 John 5:3 and is why Jesus says “if you love me keep my commandments *John14:15. Unless we are born again under the new covenant to love we will not enter the kingdom of heaven *John 3:3-7. we need to be changed from the inside out.

Matthew 5:20 is interesting because on the outside the Scribes and Pharisees as JESUS taught appeared righteous to men. Outwardly blameless in regards to following God's 10 commandments but inwardly they were like dead man bones *Matthew 23:27 full of sin (breaking God's LAW) *Matthew 23:27-28. JESUS says; For I say unto you, that except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no wise enter into the kingdom of heaven *Matthew 5:20.

The scripture in Isaiah 42:21 was posted earlier to show that Jesus came to teach the true meaning of obedience to God's Law and that is, true obedience is from the heart, from the inside out, not for outward, appearance to appear righteous to men while being inwardly full of sin and dead mans bones. God reads the heart and knows we are all sick with sin *Matthew 15:19-20; Matthew 12:34-35; Jeremiah 13:23; Jeremiah 17:9-10; Matthew 15:19-20; John 5:42 and in need of a Saviour from SIN. Many do not know the meaning here according to Jesus in Matthew 9:12-13. Do you know what Matthew 9:12-13 means dear friend?

more to come...

LoveGodsWord · Oct 26, 2021

Doug Brents said:
You were stressing the 10 commandments in your comments. I am stressing all of God’s commandments that are in force at any particular time. Under the OT, the 10 commandments, along with the other 603, were valid and enforced by God.

Earlier you were posted scripture from Gods Word showing that sin is breaking anyone of God's commandments or not believing or following what God's Word says from Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4 and James 2:10-11. Your response is "Ummm no. Sin is breaking anyone of the commandments not just the 10". Let me ask you again, where did I ever posts to you that sin is not breaking anyone of Gods' commandments? If I have never said such things why say that I have? If Gods' 10 commandments are a part of God's commandments and God's Word says that if we break anyone of them it is sin then why are you saying "Ummm no"? Then continue agreeing with what I have just said by saying "Sin is breaking anyone of God's commandments not just the 10 commandments? If God's 10 commandments are included in Gods' commandments and we break them if is sin according to the scriptures. Are you really going to try and argue now that if you lie, steal, murder or commit adultery it is not sin?

Doug Brents said:
Today, NONE of the OT commands are active since ALL of them were whipped out with the complete fulfillment of the Old Covenant by Christ. The only commands active today are those set forth by God in the NT, and those do not include keeping the Sabbath. The only thing you stat here that is untrue is that the 10 Commandments are still part of God’s law today. The moral equivalent of all of them except the 4th is restated in the NT, but the keeping of the Sabbath was not included in the NT.

These of course are your words that are not God's Word. Then we have God's Word showing that everyone of Gods' 10 commandments are repeated in the new covenant as a requirement for Christian living *(scripture support here and scriptures support here) and as shown earlier...

[1]. Jesus teaches us how to correctly keep the Sabbath showing that it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath *see Matthew 12:1-8; 10-12; 24:20; Mark 3:1-5; Luke 6:1-10; 13:14-16; 14:1-5; John 7:22-23; 9:14; Mark 1:21; Mark 6:2; Luke 4:16; 31

[2]. Jesus teaches us that he is the creator and Lord of the Sabbath that he made for all mankind *see Mark 2:27-28

[3]. Jesus looking into the future expected all his disciples to be still keeping the Sabbath well after His death and resurrection at the destruction of Jerusalem and onward *Matthew 24:20; Matthew 13:18

[4]. Jesus as our example kept the Sabbath as did all the disciples and Apostles even after the death and resurrection of Jesus *see Luke 4:16; Luke 23:55-56; Acts of the Apostles 13:14; 13:27; 13:44; 15:21; 16:13; 17:2; 18:4; Revelation 1:10

[5]. We are told in Hebrews 4 that the Sabbath remains for the people of God to enter into by faith where it is written in Aramaic "therefore it remains for the people of God to keep the Sabbath" or in the Greek "there remains (left behind) a Sabbath rest for the people of God. *see Hebrews 4:1-11.

It seems like there is a lot of scripture here from the new covenant dear friend from God's Word that disagrees with your words here. Perhaps you can show me where the scripture is that shows Gods' 10 commandments have all been abolished of that Gods' 4th commandment has been abolished and we are now commanded to keep Sunday as a holy day?

more to come...

LoveGodsWord · Oct 26, 2021

Doug Brents said:
“One person [you] esteems one day above another; another [me] esteems every day alike. Let each be fully convinced in his own mind. 6 He who observes the day, observes it to the Lord; and he who does not observe the day, to the Lord he does not observe it. He who eats, eats to the Lord, for he gives God thanks; and he who does not eat, to the Lord he does not eat, and gives God thanks.”

Non-responsive to the post you are quoting from. There is no mention of Gods' 4th commandment anywhere in Romans 14. A detailed scripture response proving this was posted in post # 96 linked. Can you show me in Romans 14 where it is talking about God's 4th commandment Sabbath of the 10 commandments? As shown through the scriptures in the linked post Romans 14 in context is talking about eating and not eating on days that men esteem over other days and judging others in this regard.

Doug Brents said:
If you don’t believe that the verses above relate to the Sabbath, then you don’t understand God’s law in the NT at all. Note the highlighted phrases above. You place one day (Sabbath) above the others. I hold every day equal. You do so to the Lord. I, to the Lord, do not. We each stand before God on our own belief, and He will judge us on our conviction and adherence to it, not on the letter of the Old Covenant Law.

Why would I believe Romans 14 is talking about Gods' 4th commandment when there is no mention of God's 4th commandment anywhere in Romans 14?

Doug Brents said:
Now, you believe that the eating is the focus and the days (in which to eat or not) are just a side note. But there is no such stipulation in this passage (or any other). As an individual holds eating or holds a day, so it will be judged of him. Notice verse 4; God is our judge. He is the one to whom we must give account. And He is able to make you stand based on the fact that you esteem one day over another, and He is able to make me stand based on the fact that I esteem all days equal. Who are you to judge me, or I to judge you? Neither of us is God.

No. I believe the scriptures teach and have shown that Romans 14 is about eating and not eating on days that men esteem over other days and judging others in this regard (see post # 96 linked).

Romans 14:2-6 For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs. Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him. Who art thou that judgest another man’s servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand. One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind. He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.

Comment: Now to deconstruct this debatable “dispute”. Paul Speaks of 2 categories of people. One eats all things, while the other only eats vegetables. One regards a certain day, while the other does not. One eats, while the other doesn’t. The dispute is hence, regarding eating or not on specific days. “Fasting” in other words! As we know, eating vegetables or a basic diet that did not include any meat, wine or anything pleasant was constituted by Daniel when he fasted (Dan 10:2,3 & Dan 1:12,16). It is a known fact that fasting was practiced heavily in the 1st century (Mat 6:16; 9:14,15, Mar 2:18-20, Luk 5:33-35). And historical documents reveal that Monday and Thursday were considered fast days in the second temple period (Ta’an. 2:4) The pharisee who prayed in Luke 18:12 about fasting twice a week, would have been keeping these fast days.

It is important to note that these fast days were traditions, and did not have root in Scripture. The “dispute” of Romans 14 is surely whether or not to fast on these days. Some believers were fasting on these days, and some were not. Paul’s advise was, not to judge one another and be thankful whether you eat or fast – or keep the traditional fast days or not – as these were doubtful disputes as they did not have Scriptural backing. It was not wrong to fast. It was not wrong to eat either. It was not wrong to fast on specific days. It was not wrong to fast on other days either. Be fully persuaded in your own mind, of what you do – was Paul’s advise to the congregation.

Now dear friend you show me where Romans 14 is talking about God's 4th commandment. Romans 14 does not mention it anywhere and Gods' 4th commandment "seventh day" Sabbath has nothing to do with Romans 14. It is about eating and not eating on days that men esteem over other day and judging others in this regard. Let me ask you again, can you show me where in Romans 14 that it is talking about Gods' 4th commandment "seventh day" Sabbath? To come up with that interpretation you need to read it into the scripture because it is not there.

more to come...

LoveGodsWord · Oct 26, 2021

LoveGodsWord said: ↑ According to the scriptures only God's Word is true and we should believe and follow them over the teachings and traditions of men that lead us away from God and his Word to break the commandments of God *Romans 3:4: Acts of the Apostles 5:29; Matthew 15:2-9. There is not one scripture in all of God's Word that says Gods' 4th commandment has now been abolished

Your response here...

Doug Brents said:
Matt 5:18 John 19:30 Heb 8:13

Now which scripture that you have provided here tells us that God's 4th commandment has been abolished and we are now commanded to keep Sunday as a holy day of rest? - None of them.

Doug Brents said:
The above verses show that the OT was completed, and in completion was abolished. The 10 Commandments are a part of the OT, and since the entirety of the OT was abolished, the 10 Commandments were abolished with them. Now, we are not commanded to worship on the Lord’s Day, but we are free to do so if we choose to.

Actually no, that is not true at all dear friend. Yes the old covenant is no more but the old covenant included both Gods' 10 commandments and the laws for remission of sins (Levitical Priesthood, Sanctuary laws, the laws for animal sacrifices and sin offerings, the annual Feast days etc) that all pointed to Christ and are now fulfilled and continued in him under Gods' new covenant promise *see Hebrews 7:1-25; Hebrews 8:1-13; Hebrews 9:1-27 and Hebrews 10:1-22.

So what is no more under the new covenant promise? It is the Mosaic laws for remission of sins not God's 10 commandments that give us the knowledge of what sin is when broken *Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7. Your mixing up the Mosaic shadow laws for remission of sins under the old covenant which were all shadow laws of things to come pointing to Jesus as the coming Messiah and savior of the world (John 1:29) with God's eternal law in the new covenant that is to be written on the heart by faith that works by love. God's 10 commandments are eternal laws that give us the knowledge of good (moral right doing) and evil (moral wrong doing); sin (moral wrong doing) and righteousness (moral right doing) *Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4; Psalms 119:172. According to James in James 2:10-11 if we break anyone of God's 10 commandments we stand guilty before God of sin.

According to the scriptures "the Lords day" is the Sabbath day *Matthew 12:8 not Sunday or the first day of the week and everyone of Gods' 10 commandments are repeated in the new covenant as the standard for Christian living. Their purpose is to give us a knowledge good and evil and the knowledge of what sin is when broken and to lead us to Christ that we might be forgiven through faith. If you seek to abolish God's law we have no knowledge of what sin is for through the law we have a knowledge of what sin is *Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7. If we do not know what sin is we have no way to know that we are sinners in need of a Savior from sin *Galatians 3:22-25. If we have no Savior from sin we are then we remain lost in sin and will perish in sin and the scripture is fulfilled "For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law" - Romans 2:12. This is the meaning of Matthew 9:12-13. Do you know the meaning of Matthew 9:12-13? If so what do you think it means and how does law lead us to Grace?

Take Care dear friend

Doug Brents · Oct 26, 2021

LoveGodsWord said:
If you did not want to answer the question asked of you just say so. You do not have to if you do not want to.

What is finished? Then it come back to the question I asked you that your not willing to discuss now doesn't it. I did not ask you where the covenants began. I asked you how the Mosaic covenant relates to Gods' new covenant promise (from Hebrews 8:10-12 from Jeremiah 31:31-34 and Ezekiel 36:24-27).

more to come...

And I have now answered that question three times. The fact you can’t see it isn’t my failing.

Doug Brents · Oct 26, 2021

LoveGodsWord said:
and we are now commanded to keep Sunday as a holy day?

more to come...

I have never said anything about Sunday.

Doug Brents · Oct 26, 2021

LoveGodsWord said:
Now which scripture that you have provided here tells us that God's 4th commandment has been abolished and we are now commanded to keep Sunday as a holy day of rest? - None of them.

Sorry, but combined they do say that the 10 Commandments (yes, all 10 of them) along with the other 603 have been fulfilled and abolished. Now, all of the Mosaic covenant was one entity. It was not pieces (moral, sacrificial, etc.). It was one covenant. And the whole covenant was fulfilled and abolished.

LoveGodsWord said:
"Actually no, that is not true at all dear friend. Yes the old covenant is no more but the old covenant included both Gods' 10 commandments and the laws for remission of sins (Levitical Priesthood, Sanctuary laws, the laws for animal sacrifices and sin offerings, the annual Feast days etc) that all pointed to Christ and are now fulfilled and continued in him under Gods' new covenant promise *see Hebrews 7:1-25; Hebrews 8:1-13; Hebrews 9:1-27 and Hebrews 10:1-22.

Sorry, but all of those divisions are parts of the whole, and the whole was fulfilled and abolished.

LoveGodsWord said:
So what is no more under the new covenant promise?

The whole. Nothing was left un-abolished that is a art of the Old Covenant.

LoveGodsWord said:
According to the scriptures "the Lords day" is the Sabbath day *Matthew 12:8 not Sunday or the first day of the week

Not true. The Lord’s day is a different monicker from the Sabbath. And as seen in Acts 20:7 and 1 Cor 16:2, it is the 1st day of the week that the early Church set aside to worship.

Ligurian · Oct 26, 2021

Ligurian said:
Matthew 12:3 But he said unto them, Have ye not read what David did, when he was an hungred, and they that were with him; 4 How he entered into the house of God, and did eat the shewbread, which was not lawful for him to eat, neither for them which were with him, but only for the priests? 5 Or have ye not read in the law, how that on the sabbath days the priests in the temple profane the sabbath, and are blameless? 6 But I say unto you, That in this place is [one] greater than the temple. 7 But if ye had known what [this] meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless. 8 For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day.

Since Jesus was baptized at 30 years of age ...the age of a priest... Jesus is both Priest and Lord of the Sabbath.
That letter to the Hebrews cannot have disanulled what Jesus said while preaching the Gospel of the Kingdom to the found-sheep of the House of Israel.
Because of this: John 12:49-50
and this: Matthew 24:35 Heaven and Earth shall pass away, but My words shall not pass away.
and this: Matthew 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till Heaven and Earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the Law, till all be generated.

1 Corinthians 8:4-11 As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol [is] nothing in the world, and that [there is] none other God but one. 8:7 Howbeit [there is] not in every man that knowledge: for some with conscience of the idol unto this hour eat [it] as a thing offered unto an idol; and their conscience being weak is defiled. 8:10 For if any man see thee which hast knowledge sit at meat in the idol's temple, shall not the conscience of him which is weak be emboldened to eat those things which are offered to idols;

___________________________
And your paraphrase needs work.
Acts 15:29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.

eidolothuton = an image-sacrifice, i.e. part of an idolatrous offering:--(meat, thing that is) offered (in sacrifice, sacrificed) to (unto) idols.
inappropriate contenteia = harlotry (including adultery and incest); figuratively, idolatry:--fornication.

Kinda can see why all this would be warned against if you've read Jesus' Revelation. Spiritual adultery is what allowed Jezebel a foothold in the church. She will be cast onto a bed of harlotry and her children to the Great Tribulation.

Doug Brents said:
I find it amazing how many people quote that verse and ignore the last phrase. Christ was the fulfillment of ALL of the old Covenant. In Him all of the requirements of the Old Covenant were completed. This fulfills the last phrase of Matt 5:18.
“For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or onetittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.”

The translators missed the mark... many times.

Mattew 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the Law, till all be fulfilled.

The word fulfilled = done in Revelation 21:6... when Heaven and Earth have passed, and a new Heaven and earth have been generated.

ginomai = a prolongation and middle voice form of a primary verb; to cause to be ("gen"-erate), i.e. (reflexively) to become (come into being), used with great latitude (literal, figurative, intensive, etc.):--arise, be assembled, be(-come, -fall, -have self), be brought (to pass), (be) come (to pass), continue, be divided, draw, be ended, fall, be finished, follow, be found, be fulfilled, + God forbid, grow, happen, have, be kept, be made, be married, be ordained to be, partake, pass, be performed, be published, require, seem, be showed, X soon as it was, sound, be taken, be turned, use, wax, will, would, be wrought.

Matthew 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the Law, or the Prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

pleroo = to make replete, i.e. (literally) to cram (a net), level up (a hollow), or (figuratively) to furnish (or imbue, diffuse, influence), satisfy, execute (an office), finish (a period or task), verify (or coincide with a prediction), etc.:--accomplish, X after, (be) complete, end, expire, fill (up), fulfil, (be, make) full (come), fully preach, perfect, supply.

Matthew 19:28-30 After this, Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the scripture might be fulfilled, saith, I thirst. Now there was set a vessel full of vinegar: and they filled a spunge with vinegar, and put [it] upon hyssop, and put [it] to His mouth. When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, He said, It is finished: and He bowed His head, and gave up the ghost.

teleo = to end, i.e. complete, execute, conclude, discharge (a debt):--accomplish, make an end, expire, fill up, finish, go over, pay, perform.

That The Scripture might be fulfilled... This Scripture:

Exodus 12:21 And Moses called all the elders of the children of Israel, and said to them, Go away and take to yourselves a lamb according to your kindreds, and slay the passover. 22 And ye shall take a bunch of hyssop, and having dipped it into some of the blood that is by the door, ye shall touch the lintel, and shall put it upon both door-posts, even of the blood which is by the door; but ye shall not go out every one from the door of his house till the morning. ... 26 And it shall come to pass, if your sons say to you, What is this service? 27 that ye shall say to them, "This passover is a sacrifice to the Lord, as He defended the houses of the children of Israel in Egypt, when He smote the Egyptians, but delivered our houses."

It wasn't all Scripture being fulfilled/finished... it was the one remaining Scripture, of all the scriptures which His coming fulfilled: the Scripture making Jesus the Passover Lamb of God (who was slain from the foundation of the world, according to Genesis 3:15, in order to replace Death with Resurrection). So then, people end up just knowing that Jesus is the advocate... without ever wondering how that came to pass. But the advocate is the defender against the accuser, Revelation 12:10, and against the destroyer and his angels.

Most people don't recognize the fact that the devil hasn't yet been cast out, because they don't see Heavenly Sion as the woman in labor, in Revelation and here:

Isaiah 65:6-8 A voice of a cry from the city, a voice from the temple, a voice of the Lord rendering recompence to his adversaries. 7 Before she that travailed brought forth, before the travail-pain came on, she escaped it and brought forth a male. 8 Who has heard such a thing? and who has seen after this manner? Has the earth travailed in one day? or has even a nation been born at once, that Sion has travailed, and brought forth her children?

They think Satan is already cast out, because they don't see the three woes in Revelation 8, and recognize the last woe as the devil being cast out. They think the woman in labor must be Mary/Israel, because they don't see the verse above or Revelation 2:27 as matching Revelation 12:5. Even those who can quote Daniel to you, don't see that Michael's war in Heaven matches the one in Revelation 12:7.

Hosea 4:6 My people are like as if they had no knowledge.LXX

If people seriously thought about the power of the devil, they wouldn't think he'd been cast to Earth already... they're in for a rude awakening when the Great Tribulation he brings to the Earth actually begins to happen. Instead, it's like the 'prophets who prophesied smooth things' never even left the building.

LoveGodsWord · Oct 26, 2021

Doug Brents said:
And I have now answered that question three times. The fact you can’t see it isn’t my failing.

Actually no you didn't but it is ok. As posted earlier I did not ask you where the covenants began. I asked you how the Mosaic covenant relates to Gods' new covenant promise (from Hebrews 8:10-12 from Jeremiah 31:31-34 and Ezekiel 36:24-27). Don't worry though the question was pretty much answered in post # 141 linked with the scriptures provided there so all good. Thanks for sharing your view though.

LoveGodsWord · Oct 26, 2021

Doug Brents said:
Sorry, but combined they do say that the 10 Commandments (yes, all 10 of them) along with the other 603 have been fulfilled and abolished. Now, all of the Mosaic covenant was one entity. It was not pieces (moral, sacrificial, etc.). It was one covenant. And the whole covenant was fulfilled and abolished.
Sorry, but all of those divisions are parts of the whole, and the whole was fulfilled and abolished. The whole. Nothing was left un-abolished that is a art of the Old Covenant.

I see so surely it is not your understanding of the new covenant that we are all now free to lie, steal, commit adultery, murder, take God's name in vain, take other Gods', break God's sabbath, dishonor our parents and covet our neighbor belongings? I am not sure where you got that view from as it certainly is not written in the scriptures. Please forgive me but I do not believe you but let me explain why from. As posted earlier your mixing up God's 10 commandments that give us the knowledge of good (moral right doing) and evil (moral wrong doing); sin (moral wrong doing) and righteousness (moral right doing) *see Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4; Psalms 119:172 that leads us to Christ *Galatians 3:22-25 with the Mosiac "shadow laws" for remission of sins fulfilled in Christ (see Hebrews 7:1-25; Hebrews 8:1-13; Hebrews 9:1-27 and Hebrews 10:1-22). Everyone of God's 10 commandments including God's 4th commandment "seventh day" Sabbath commandment is restated under the new covenant as the standard and knowledge of good and evil; sin and righteousness (scriptures support here and scripture support here linked) and according to James if we break any one of them we stand guilty before God of sin *James 2:10-11. According to the scriptures we do not want to be with those who depart the faith in order to practice known unrepentant sin *Hebrews 10:26-31. Gods' Word does not teach the lawlessness (without law) and according to John those who practice known unrepentant sin which is defined in the scriptures as breaking anyone of Gods' 10 commandments and not believing Gods' Word *James 2:10-11; 1 John 3:4; Romans 7:7; Romans 14:23 and those who do not practice unrepentant sin is the difference between the children of God and the children of the devil *see 1 John 2:3-4; 1 John 3:6-10; 1 John 5:2-3; Revelation 12:17; Revelation 14:12; Revelation 22:14. As posted earlier your free to believe as you wish but everyone of Gods' 10 commandments are repeated in the new covenant as the standard of Christian living and there is no scripture anywhere in the new testament that says God's 10 commandments are abolished. Gods' Word does not teach lawlessness (without law) for through the law we have a knowledge of what sin is (Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7).

Doug Brents said:
Not true. The Lord’s day is a different monicker from the Sabbath. And as seen in Acts 20:7 and 1 Cor 16:2, it is the 1st day of the week that the early Church set aside to worship.

Sorry dear friend but it is true. According to the scriptures "the Lords day" of Revelation 1:10 is the Sabbath day as shown in Matthew 12:8. If you disagree your welcome to show me the scriptures where it says "the Lords day" is Sunday of the first day of the week? - There is none. This like Sunday worship according to the scriptures is a man-made teaching and tradition that has led many away from God and His Word to break the commandments of God that Jesus warns us about in Matthew 15:2-9. I believe that the test that is coming to everyone of us is who do we believe and follow God's Word or the teachings and traditions of men that lead us to break the commandments of God. According to Jesus the hour is coming and now is that the true worshipers will hear His voice (the Word) and follow him. God is a Spirit and those who worship Him must worship Him in Spirit and in truth *John 4:23-24; God is calling us out from following man-made teachings and traditions to return to the pure Word of God. *Revelation 18:1-5

Take Care dear friend.

Ligurian · Oct 26, 2021

Doug Brents said:
Yes, there is a communication breakdown. The relationship between the Mosaic covenant is the same as that between the Abrahamic covenant and the covenant in Christ: replaced!

The Mosaic covenant is a renewal of the Abrahamic covenant, it is not a stand-alone entity. As noted in my previous posts, the Abrahamic covenant (along with the renewal of that covenant with Moses (to include the 10 Commandments)) was completed and done away with when Jesus said “It is finished.”

Apart from context, you might be tempted to think ...some of that... to be true.
But Everlasting means Forever.
What sort of person refuses to stop killing, stealing, coveting, bearing false witness,
dishonoring their parents, committing adultery? For whom is that a hard yoke to bear... other than Sociopaths?
Second Law governs the Promised Land, Deuteronomy 5:31.

Genesis 17:7-10 And I will establish My Covenant between thee and thy seed after thee, to their generations, for an Everlasting Covenant, to be thy God, and the God of thy seed after thee. 8 And I will give to thee and to thy seed after thee the land wherein thou sojournest, even all the land of Chanaan for an everlasting possession, and I will be to them a God. 9 And God said to Abraam, Thou also shalt fully keep My Covenant, thou and thy seed after thee for their generations. 10 And this is the Covenant which thou shalt fully keep between Me and you, and between thy seed after thee for their generations; every male of you shall be circumcised.LXX

Jeremiah 11:1-5 The word that came to Jeremias from the Lord, saying, Hear ye the words of this Covenant, and thou shalt speak to the men of Juda, and to the dwellers in Jerusalem; and thou shalt say to them, "Thus saith the Lord God of Israel, Cursed is the man, who shall not hearken to the words of this Covenant, which I commanded your fathers, in the day wherein I brought them up out of the land of Egypt, out of the iron furnace, saying, Hearken to My voice, and do all things that I shall command you; so shall ye be to Me a people, and I will be to you a God; that I may confirm Mine oath, which I sware to your fathers, to give them a land flowing with milk and honey, as it is this day."LXX

Isaiah 24:3 The earth shall be completely laid waste, and the earth shall be utterly spoiled: for the mouth of the Lord has spoken these things. 4 The earth mourns, and the world is ruined, the lofty ones of the earth are mourning. 5 And she has sinned by reason of her inhabitants; because they have transgressed the Law, and changed the Ordinances, even the Everlasting Covenant.LXX

Jesus came to save the world itself, which is ruined because...

Doug Brents said:
The New Covenant is not a list of “Do this”s, and “Don’t do that”s.

Galatians 2:7-9 is thus proven by their separate adherants, time after time.

Did you never think that the Sermon on the Mount, which judges the hearts, means the Kingdom Law which is written on the heart? If not, you're not alone... sadly

Matthew 5:2--Matthew 7:28-29 Therefore whosoever heareth these words of Mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon the rock: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon the rock. And every one that heareth these words of Mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

Revelation 3:8-10 I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept My word, and hast not denied My name. Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee. Because thou hast kept the word of My patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

The dragon makes war on those who keep Commandments, Revelation 12:17.

Ligurian · Oct 26, 2021

LoveGodsWord said:
Jesus is saying we can be outwardly perfect and blameless like the Scribes and Pharisees but inwardly like dead mans bones *Matthew 23:27-28.

Matthew 23:25 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess.

harpage = from harpazo; pillage (properly abstract):--extortion, ravening, spoiling.
harpax = from harpazo; rapacious:--extortion, ravening.

Matthew 7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

Doug Brents · Oct 27, 2021

LoveGodsWord said:
I see so in your understanding of the new covenant we are all now free to lie, steal, commit adultery, murder, take God's name in vain, take other Gods', dishonor our parents and covet our neighbor belongings?

Not at all. As I have said multiple times already, all of these are restated in even stricter language (not just don’t murder, but don’t even hate, not just don’t commit adultery but done even lust, etc.) as part of the New Covenant. And those who do those things will not inherit the Kingdom of God. But even in all the passages you repeatedly post, there is no commandment given in the New Covenant to keep the Sabbath. None.

LoveGodsWord said:
God is calling us out from following man-made teachings and traditions to return to the pure Word of God. *Revelation 18:1-5

Take Care dear friend.

Indeed He is. And as I said, your faith may call you to follow the Old Covenant Law of the Sabbath (remember the warning from Scripture about failing to keep the whole of you choose to follow a part of the OT). My faith calls me to honor God equally on all days. Your worship is between you and God, and I will not prevent or dissuade you from doing so. My worship is between me and God, and I ask you to give those of us with a stronger faith than you the same courtesy.

LoveGodsWord · Oct 27, 2021

Doug Brents said:
Not at all. As I have said multiple times already, all of these are restated in even stricter language (not just don’t murder, but don’t even hate, not just don’t commit adultery but done even lust, etc.) as part of the New Covenant. And those who do those things will not inherit the Kingdom of God. But even in all the passages you repeatedly post, there is no commandment given in the New Covenant to keep the Sabbath. None.

Sorry dear friend but I respectfully disagree but allow me to show why from the scriptures. Firstly in the scriptures you posted earlier only four of God's 10 commandments were stated. You were missing 6 commandments. God's 4th commandment is one of God's 10 commandments that gives us the knowledge of what sin is when broken in the new covenant *Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4 and if we break anyone of them we stand guilty before God of sin according to James 2:10-11.

As shown to you through the scriptures already Gods 4th commandment is all through the new covenant scriptures as part of God's 10 commandments as a requirement for Christian living. Please stop saying that there is no scripture given in the new covenant to keep God's 4th commandment as this claim is not being truthful as many scriptures have already been provided disagreeing with your claims here. Here let me ask you a few questions if it might help the conversation.

Q1. Why would Jesus be teaching us how to correctly keep the Sabbath showing us that it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath (Matthew 12:1-8; 10-12; 24:20; Mark 3:1-5; Luke 6:1-10; 13:14-16; 14:1-5; John 7:22-23; 9:14; Mark 1:21; Mark 6:2; Luke 4:16; 31) if we were no longer required to keep the Sabbath?

Q2. Why is Jesus teaching us that he is the Lord and creator of the Sabbath that he made for all mankind if the Sabbath was no longer important as one of God's 10 commandments in the new covenant? *see Mark 2:27-28.

Q3. If the Sabbath was no longer a requirement in the new covenant why did not Jesus tell any of His Apostles or disciples about this fact while he was alive or after His resurrection? Yet we see the scriptures telling is that Jesus as our example kept the Sabbath as did all the disciples and Apostles even after the death and resurrection of Jesus *see Luke 4:16; Luke 23:55-56; Acts of the Apostles 13:14; 13:27; 13:44; 15:21; 16:13; 17:2; 18:4; Revelation 1:10?

Q4. If the Sabbath was no longer a requirement or a part of God's 10 commandments in the new covenant why did Jesus looking into the future seeing that all his disciples would be still keeping the Sabbath well after His death and resurrection at the destruction of Jerusalem and onward *Matthew 24:20; Matthew 13:18?

Then of course we are told in Hebrews 4 that the Sabbath remains for the people of God to enter into by faith where it is written in Aramaic "therefore it remains for the people of God to keep the Sabbath" or in the Greek "there remains (left behind) a Sabbath rest for the people of God. *see Hebrews 4:1-11. THEREFORE IT REMAINS (left behind) FOR THE PEOPLE OF GOD TO KEEP THE SABBATH - Hebrews 4:9.

As to the rest of your post may I ask you what do you think post # 141 linked is talking about?

Doug Brents said:
Indeed He is. And as I said, your faith may call you to follow the Old Covenant Law of the Sabbath (remember the warning from Scripture about failing to keep the whole of you choose to follow a part of the OT). My faith calls me to honor God equally on all days. Your worship is between you and God, and I will not prevent or dissuade you from doing so. My worship is between me and God, and I ask you to give those of us with a stronger faith than you the same courtesy.

According to Jesus, no one honors God or worships God by knowingly following man-made teachings and traditions that break the commandments of God according in Matthew 15:3-9. I believe this scripture has direct application to our discussion and Gods' 4th commandment of the 10 commandments because there is not a single scripture in all of God's Word that says Gods' 4th commandment is now abolished and we are now commanded to keep Sunday as a holy day of rest now is there. Then we have the very words of Jesus saying...

Matthew 15:3-9
[3], But he (JESUS) answered and said to them, WHY DO YOU ALSO TRANSGRESS THE COMMANDMENT OF GOD BY YOUR TRADITION?
[4], For God commanded, saying, HONOR YOUR FATHER AND MOTHER: and, He that curses father or mother, let him die the death.
[5], But you say, Whoever shall say to his father or his mother, It is a gift, by whatever you might be profited by me;
[6], And honor not his father or his mother, he shall be free. THUS HAVE YOU MADE THE COMMANDMENT OF GOD OF NONE EFFECT BY YOUR TRADITION.
[7], You hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,
[8], THIS PEOPLE DRAWS NEAR TO ME WITH THEIR MOUTH, AND HONORS ME WITH THEIR LIPS; BUT THEIR HEART IS FAR FROM ME.
[9], BUT IN VAIN THEY DO WORSHIP ME, TEACHING FOR DOCTRINES THE COMMANDMENTS OF MEN.

According to the scriptures and the very words of Jesus he says it is vain to think we are worshiping God by breaking His commandments. Sorry dear friend but I think we are at a disagreement here. So I guess we will agree to disagree.

Take Care.

Doug Brents · Oct 27, 2021

LoveGodsWord said:
Q1. Why would Jesus be teaching us how to correctly keep the Sabbath showing us that it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath (Matthew 12:1-8; 10-12; 24:20; Mark 3:1-5; Luke 6:1-10; 13:14-16; 14:1-5; John 7:22-23; 9:14; Mark 1:21; Mark 6:2; Luke 4:16; 31; Luke 14:1; 23:56) if we were no longer required to keep the Sabbath?

Let’s look at some of those passages.
Matt 12:1-8 - What do we learn about the Sabbath in this passage?
It was made for man, not man for it.
Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath.
The man-made restrictions of the Sabbath are not God endorsed and are not sin.
The disciples were blameless for “doing work” on the Sabbath.
But there is no mandate here for keeping the Sabbath in the New Covenant. They were still under the Old Covenant, and so still under the Sabbath law.

Mark 3:1-5 - Here again we see the same lessons as in Matthew. It is not about what we do, or don’t do, on the Sabbath, but about honoring God (which I do every day equally).

Luke 6:1-10, 13:14-16, 14:1-5 - Same as above.

John 7:22-23, 9:7 - same as above

Mark 1:21, 6:2 - Jesus taught in the Synagogue (surprise surprise, when other Jews were already there studying Scripture, Jesus shows up to teach)

Luke 4:16, 31 - seen Mark 1 above

Luke 23:56 - these ladies were still operating under the OT as the Lord had not risen, nor had the Church begun.

LoveGodsWord said:
Q2. Why is Jesus teaching us that he is the Lord and creator of the Sabbath that he made for all mankind if the Sabbath was no longer important as one of God's 10 commandments in the new covenant? *see Mark 2:27-28.

Jesus, being God, is Lord of everything. So He is Lord of the Sabbath too. He was making it clear that the Sabbath serves man, man is not the servant of the Sabbath. And all of the people to whom He is talking are Jews who have lived their entire lives keeping the Sabbath, as He has also, because at this point the Sabbath is still Law.

LoveGodsWord said:
Q3. If the Sabbath was no longer a requirement in the new covenant why did not Jesus tell any of His Apostles or disciples about this fact while he was alive or after His resurrection? Yet we see the scriptures telling is that Jesus as our example kept the Sabbath as did all the disciples and Apostles even after the death and resurrection of Jesus *see Luke 4:16; Luke 23:55-56; Acts of the Apostles 13:14; 13:27; 13:44; 15:21; 16:13; 17:2; 18:4; Revelation 1:10?

Acts 13:14, 16:17, 17:2, 18,4 - Again, where do you go when in a new town to find people who are already open to hearing about God? To the place, and at the time, when they are already gathered to do exactly that: in the synagogue on the Sabbath, which the Jews who were not yet believers still (even to this day) believed they were still bound to keep.

Rev 1:10 - This is a reference to the Lord’s Day. This is quite distinct from the Sabbath. Remember, although he is much older, this is the same John who wrote about Jesus teaching on the Sabbath. But for at least half of his life (and more likely two thirds of it) he has been living under the New Covenant. That being the case, he is no longer used to worshiping on the Sabbath, but on the Lord’s Day (Sunday) as that is the day Paul told the Churches to lay by in store (tithe), and when they gathered to break bread together as the Body of Christ.

LoveGodsWord said:
Q4. If the Sabbath was no longer a requirement or a part of God's 10 commandments in the new covenant why did Jesus looking into the future seeing that all his disciples would be still keeping the Sabbath well after His death and resurrection at the destruction of Jerusalem and onward *Matthew 24:20; Matthew 13:18?

Because that event (the sacking of Jerusalem) would occur not very long after, and most of the people standing there would still be alive. Most of them would still be habit bound to keeping the Sabbath.

LoveGodsWord said:
Then of course we are told in Hebrews 4 that the Sabbath remains for the people of God to enter into by faith where it is written in Aramaic "therefore it remains for the people of God to keep the Sabbath" or in the Greek "there remains (left behind) a Sabbath rest for the people of God. *see Hebrews 4:1-11. THEREFORE IT REMAINS (left behind) FOR THE PEOPLE OF GOD TO KEEP THE SABBATH - Hebrews 4:9.

The rest here is the peace and rest of Heaven. It is a rest from the “work” of this life. Yes, he uses the Sabbath as an metaphor because he is talking to Hebrews (Jews) who had lived their lives under the Law and understood the significance of a Sabbath rest.

LoveGodsWord said:
As to the rest of your post may I ask you what do you think post # 141 linked is talking about?

According to Jesus, no one honors God or worships God by knowingly following man-made teachings and traditions that break the commandments of God according in Matthew 15:3-9. I believe this scripture has direct application to our discussion and Gods' 4th commandment of the 10 commandments because there is not a single scripture in all of God's Word that says Gods' 4th commandment is now abolished and we are now commanded to keep Sunday as a holy day of rest now is there.

According to the scriptures and the very words of Jesus he says it is vain to think we are worshiping God by breaking His commandments. Sorry dear friend but I think we are at a disagreement here. So I guess we will agree to disagree.

Take Care.

There is no disagreement on my side. As I have said, in the case of honoring one day over another, those of weaker faith are bound to what they believe, and those of greater faith are free in what we believe. I do not encourage you to break your faith by not keeping the Sabbath if that is what you feel God has called you to do.

But I am not called to keep that day as any more sacred than any other day. I honor God equally in all days. This is not meant as an encouragement for you to live as I do, nor am I criticizing you for your faith.

LoveGodsWord · Oct 27, 2021

LoveGodsWord said: ↑ Q1. Why would Jesus be teaching us how to correctly keep the Sabbath showing us that it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath (Matthew 12:1-12; 24:20; Mark 3:1-5; Luke 6:1-10; 13:14-16; 14:1-5; John 7:22-23; 9:14; Mark 1:21; Mark 6:2; Luke 4:16; 31) if we were no longer required to keep the Sabbath?

Your response here...

Doug Brents said:
Let’s look at some of those passages. Matt 12:1-8 - What do we learn about the Sabbath in this passage? It was made for man, not man for it. Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath. The man-made restrictions of the Sabbath are not God endorsed and are not sin. The disciples were blameless for “doing work” on the Sabbath. But there is no mandate here for keeping the Sabbath in the New Covenant. They were still under the Old Covenant, and so still under the Sabbath law. Mark 3:1-5 - Here again we see the same lessons as in Matthew. It is not about what we do, or don’t do, on the Sabbath, but about honoring God (which I do every day equally). Luke 6:1-10, 13:14-16, 14:1-5 - Same as above. John 7:22-23, 9:7 - same as above Mark 1:21, 6:2 - Jesus taught in the Synagogue (surprise surprise, when other Jews were already there studying Scripture, Jesus shows up to teach)Luke 4:16, 31 - seen Mark 1 above Luke 23:56 - these ladies were still operating under the OT as the Lord had not risen, nor had the Church begun.

Doug the passages provided above with the main one being Matthew 12:1-12 and most of the supporting passages (e.g. Mark 3:1-5; Luke 6:1-10; Luke 13:14-16; Luke 14:1-6; Luke 7:22-23; John 9:14; Mark 1:21; Mark 6:2; Luke 4:16; 31) that Jesus as His custom was to teach on the Sabbath that it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath and as an example of this other scriptures were provided showing Jesus doing good on the Sabbath by healing people on the Sabbath. I see there were two scriptures out of thirty one scriptures (2/31) however (Luke 14:1; 23:56) provided in this section that should not have been there as Luke 14:1 should have been Luke 14:1-6 that was provided earlier and Luke 23:56 was about the disciples resting on the Sabbath (which I have now removed).

Now as shown with the scriptures above I am sure you are not disagreeing that Jesus taught on the Sabbath that it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath and led by example by healing on the Sabbath are you? All you have done here in your response was to pull out individual scriptures from their context and avoided answering the question asked of you.

The question asked of you was....

Q1. Why would Jesus be teaching us how to correctly keep the Sabbath showing us that it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath (Matthew 12:1-12; 24:20; Mark 3:1-5; Luke 6:1-10; 13:14-16; 14:1-5; John 7:22-23; 9:14; Mark 1:21; Mark 6:2; Luke 4:16; 31) if we were no longer required to keep the Sabbath?

Did you want to have a go at actually answering the question now?

more to come...

LoveGodsWord · Oct 27, 2021

LoveGodsWord said: ↑ Q2. Why is Jesus teaching us that he is the Lord and creator of the Sabbath that he made for all mankind if the Sabbath was no longer important as one of God's 10 commandments in the new covenant? *see Mark 2:27-28.

Your response here...

Doug Brents said:
Jesus, being God, is Lord of everything. So He is Lord of the Sabbath too. He was making it clear that the Sabbath serves man, man is not the servant of the Sabbath. And all of the people to whom He is talking are Jews who have lived their entire lives keeping the Sabbath, as He has also, because at this point the Sabbath is still Law.

So in your view Jesus just started randomly talking about the Sabbath for no reason? Why did he not say that he is Lord of everything" In fact Jesus by claiming he is the Lord of the Sabbath is saying he is the creator of the Sabbath because he made the Sabbath for all mankind *Mark 2:27-28. Jesus was again teaching us that he is the God of creation and that he made the Sabbath for all mankind at creation (see Mark 2:27-28; Genesis 2:1-3; John 1:1-4; 14). You have missed the point to this question. Why is Jesus teaching these things above if the Sabbath is no longer a requirement in the new covenant? Jesus is clearly stating here that he is the God of creation and he made the Sabbath for all mankind (not just the Jews). So once again Jesus is seen here teaching us about the Sabbath. So with the first two questions not only is he teaching us it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath (Matthew 12:1-12) he is also teaching us that he is the Lord and creator of all things and that he made the Sabbath for all mankind.

more to come...

LoveGodsWord · Oct 27, 2021

LoveGodsWord said: ↑ Q3. If the Sabbath was no longer a requirement in the new covenant why did not Jesus tell any of His Apostles or disciples about this fact while he was alive or after His resurrection? Yet we see the scriptures telling is that Jesus as our example kept the Sabbath as did all the disciples and Apostles even after the death and resurrection of Jesus *see Luke 4:16; Luke 23:55-56; Acts of the Apostles 13:14; 13:27; 13:44; 15:21; 16:13; 17:2; 18:4; Revelation 1:10?

Your response here...

Doug Brents said:
Acts 13:14, 16:17, 17:2, 18,4 - Again, where do you go when in a new town to find people who are already open to hearing about God? To the place, and at the time, when they are already gathered to do exactly that: in the synagogue on the Sabbath, which the Jews who were not yet believers still (even to this day) believed they were still bound to keep. Rev 1:10 - This is a reference to the Lord’s Day. This is quite distinct from the Sabbath. Remember, although he is much older, this is the same John who wrote about Jesus teaching on the Sabbath. But for at least half of his life (and more likely two thirds of it) he has been living under the New Covenant. That being the case, he is no longer used to worshiping on the Sabbath, but on the Lord’s Day (Sunday) as that is the day Paul told the Churches to lay by in store (tithe), and when they gathered to break bread together as the Body of Christ.

Well your just avoiding answering the question asked you here Doug and have started talking about random stuff unrelated to the question being asked of you. The question asked of you was "If the Sabbath was no longer a requirement in the new covenant why did not Jesus tell any of His Apostles or disciples about this fact while he was alive or after His resurrection? Yet we see the scriptures telling is that Jesus as our example kept the Sabbath as did all the disciples and Apostles even after the death and resurrection of Jesus *see Luke 4:16; Luke 23:55-56; Acts of the Apostles 13:14; 13:27; 13:44; 15:21; 16:13; 17:2; 18:4; Revelation 1:10?" How does the response you have provided above answer the question being asked of you? - It doesn't. As shown from the scriptures already "the Lords day" of Revelation 1:10 is the Sabbath day (see Matthew 12:8). There is no scriptures anywhere in the bible that says Sunday or the first day of the week in "the Lords day". This is a man-made teaching and tradition that not supported in the scriptures. Did you want to try answering the question this time?

more to come....

LoveGodsWord · Oct 27, 2021

LoveGodsWord said: ↑ Q4. If the Sabbath was no longer a requirement or a part of God's 10 commandments in the new covenant why did Jesus looking into the future seeing that all his disciples would be still keeping the Sabbath well after His death and resurrection at the destruction of Jerusalem and onward *Matthew 24:20; Matthew 13:18?

Your response here...

Doug Brents said:
Because that event (the sacking of Jerusalem) would occur not very long after, and most of the people standing there would still be alive. Most of them would still be habit bound to keeping the Sabbath.

Doug, the destruction of Jerusalem took place in AD 70 nearly 40 years after the death and Resurrection of Jesus. As shown in the scriptures provided here Jesus did not say anything anywhere about the Sabbath being abolished when he was with the disciples. Don't you think that if Jesus was going to abolish His own Sabbath that he would have said something to the disciples before his death or after His resurrection? Yet here we are Jesus telling His disciples nearly 40 years after His death that at the time of the destruction of Jerusalem to pray that their departure from Jerusalem is not on the Sabbath. Jesus here clearly expected his disciples and Apostles to be continuing to keep the Sabbath here according to the scriptures and as shown in the biblical record Jesus as well as all the disciples and Apostles all kept the Sabbath well after the death and resurrection of Jesus in line with with Jesus is saying to His disciples here. I hope you can see you clearly have also not answered this question here as well.

more to come...

LoveGodsWord · Oct 27, 2021

LoveGodsWord said: ↑ Then of course we are told in Hebrews 4 that the Sabbath remains for the people of God to enter into by faith where it is written in Aramaic "therefore it remains for the people of God to keep the Sabbath" or in the Greek "there remains (left behind) a Sabbath rest for the people of God. *see Hebrews 4:1-11. THEREFORE IT REMAINS (left behind) FOR THE PEOPLE OF GOD TO KEEP THE SABBATH - Hebrews 4:9.

Your response here...

Doug Brents said:
The rest here is the peace and rest of Heaven. It is a rest from the “work” of this life. Yes, he uses the Sabbath as an metaphor because he is talking to Hebrews (Jews) who had lived their lives under the Law and understood the significance of a Sabbath rest.

Sorry Doug that I respectfully disagree but let me explain why. If you read the context of Hebrews 4:1-5 it it is talking about and defining what God's rest/My rest/ His rest is and it is defined as the "seventh day" created from the foundation of the world. The previous chapter in Hebrews 3:8-19 stating that those who did not believe and follow God's Word (the gospel) and broke God's commandments did not enter into God's rest defined in Hebrews 4:1-5 as the "seventh day" Sabbath. That is they kept the Sabbath but did not enter into God's rest on the Sabbath because of their unbelief and sin. This is made clear in the scriptures that we are not talking about a future event but something that happens now as we believe and follow what God's Word says in Hebrews 4:1-4.

WHAT IS GOD’S REST IN HEBREWS 3 and HEBREWS 4?

HEBREWS 4:1-11
[1], LET US THEREFORE FEAR, LEST, A PROMISE BEING LEFT US OF ENTERING INTO HIS REST, ANY OF YOU SHOULD SEEM TO COME SHORT OF IT.
[2], FOR TO US WAS THE GOSPEL PREACHED, AS WELL AS TO THEM: BUT THE WORD PREACHED DID NOT PROFIT THEM, NOT BEING MIXED WITH FAITH IN THEM THAT HEARD IT.
[3], FOR WE WHICH HAVE BELIEVED DO ENTER INTO REST, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.
[4], For he spoke in a certain place of the SEVENTH DAY on this wise, And God did rest the SEVENTH DAY from all his works.
5, And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest.

KEY POINTS FROM THE SCRIPTURES OF HEBREWS 4:1-5 (exegesis)

NOTE: Context in Hebrews 4:1-5 is God's Rest from the seventh day Sabbath from the foundation of the world (v4-5) and those who enter Gods rest by and believing and following Gods Word [the gospel] who enter into God's Sabbath rest as God did on the seventh day of the week. The context here defining God’s rest/My rest/His rest is to God’s seventh day Sabbath rest created at the foundation of the world that those who believe or do not believe God's WORD do or do not enter into. The new testament writer of Hebrews is warning us that if we do not believe and follow God's Word (the gospel) and continue in sin and unbelief (Hebrews 3:10-13; 18-19) we will never enter into God's rest (His Rest/My Rest) which is defined as the "seventh day" Sabbath rest in Hebrews 4:1-5. There are two rests here. One is to the rest we enter into by believing and following Gods Word which is our rest and the rest we enter into by believing and following God’s Word to God’s rest which is the seventh day Sabbath. Hebrews 4:3-5 defines God's rest by saying [3], For we which have believed do enter into rest (our rest from or the gospel rest of believing and following God's Word), as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest (God's rest): although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. [4], For he spoke in a certain place of the "seventh day" on this wise, And God did rest the "seventh day" from all his works. [5], And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest ("seventh day").

[6], Seeing therefore it remains that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:
[7], Again, he limits a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if you will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.
[8], For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.
[9] SO THEN, IT REMAINS FOR THE PEOPLE OF GOD TO KEEP THE SABBATH.
[10], For he that is entered into his rest, he also has ceased from his own works, as God did from his. [11], Let us labor therefore to enter that rest, [God’s REST the SEVENTH DAY SABBATH] lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief [rejecting God’s WORD and sin; Hebrews 3].

KEY POINTS OF HEBREWS 4:9

Now notice Hebrews 4, verse 9: “SO THEN, IT REMAINS FOR THE PEOPLE OF GOD TO KEEP THE SABBATH.” In verses 1, 3, 4 and 8, the Greek word for “rest” is katapausin. It means “rest.” But in verse 9, the Greek word for “rest” is sabbatismos, which is a Hebrew word—Sabbat, which means “the Sabbath”—combined with a Greek suffix—ismos, which means “a keeping of” or “a doing of.” Put together, sabbatismo means “a keeping of the Sabbath.” When correctly translated, Hebrews 4:9 should read, “There remains therefore a keeping of the Sabbath to the people of God.”

According to the Greek and scripture contexts of Hebrews 3:7-19 and Hebrews 4:1-9, Hebrews 4:9 is in regards to God’s seventh day Sabbath of the 4th commandment which in the context of Hebrews 4:1-5 which defines God’s rest/My rest/His rest (Hebrews 3:11; 18-19; Hebrews 4:1; 3; 5; 10) as the “seventh day” from the foundation of the world *Hebrews 4:3-4.

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Aramaic Bible in Plain English
Hebrews 4:9 So then, it remains for the people of God to keep the Sabbath.

Lamsa Bible
Hebrews 4:9 It is therefore the duty of the people of God to keep the Sabbath.

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