"do your own research" - examining this argument from a different angle

ThatRobGuy

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There's another thread leveraging this article
These four words are helping spread vaccine misinformation - CNN

...but I wanted to look at it from a different angle and with a slightly different tone by examining the practicality of managing public health outcomes based on opinions of non-experts "doing their own research", but with a subject that's not as highly politically charged, and not subject to any sort of mandates or restrictions or even the slightest inkling of government force, or with nearly as much of the vitriol people have for the topic of vaccines.

That topic: "Human Nutrition".

Specifically, the divide between Vegan and Keto advocates.

Mind you, I don't follow either dietary practice, and I'm not advocating for or trash-talking either one of these, that's not the point of the exercise.

I specifically picked this one because both factions have a high percentage of advocates who fancy themselves "well researched" and "well learned" on the topic of health and nutrition. If you know any advocates from either of these camps, you know they pride themselves on reading a lot of content, consuming a lot of documentaries from their favorite providers, and even attending conferences and lectures "Like KetoCon or VegFest" to listen to people with an MD or PhD speak on the topic.

If you know any die-hard vegans, they've well versed in the studies and writings of Dr. Gregor or Dr. Garth Davis or Dr. Caldwell Esselstyn...if you know any die-hard Keto followers, they're all well-versed on the papers by people like Dr. Paul Saladino or Bart Kay PhD.


How do two groups of people, who've all spent huge amounts of time "doing their own research" come up with such wildly different conclusions on the same subject?

There's only a couple possible conclusions
- One side got it really right, and the other got it really wrong
- Both sides got a few things right, and a few things wrong
- Both sides have specifically chosen the research that fits their ideology, and have chosen to focus exclusively on that and ignore all the other research.


How that applies more broadly, and specifically to the topic of sentiments of "parents know what's best for protecting their kids from a disease" or "a person knows what's best for their own health and is well qualified to make those decisions"...is that both of those sentiments fall flat.

There are several non-controversial, non-polarized topics where non-experts have "done their own research on it", and that research may have come a place of complete sincerity and didn't start off biased at all, but have come up with two nearly polar opposite conclusions on the topic.

How much weight should the "findings" of non-experts be given when it comes to something serious? (serious as in, impacts others and not just the person, themselves) IE: if two people have a difference in conclusion between Xbox vs. Playstation, that's largely inconsequential. However, if two people have a difference of opinion on the best way to address the apartment building that's about collapse...that's a different story, and it may be worth considering giving more merit to the "non-expert" opinion that happens to line up with the conclusion that the overwhelming majority of engineers seem to agree with.
 

Yttrium

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Don't overlook the power of fads. A fad can spread through the population quickly for no apparent reason. The keto diet is a fad. The vegan diet, on the other hand, is inspired by many people not wanting to eat meat, due to moral considerations. The vegan diet may be a bit faddy too, but it has a reason to stick around, while the keto diet could easily die out.

Conspiracy theories are also prone to fad behavior. It doesn't need to make too much sense if it's a fad.
 
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Tanj

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Don't overlook the power of fads. A fad can spread through the population quickly for no apparent reason. The keto diet is a fad. The vegan diet, on the other hand, is inspired by many people not wanting to eat meat, due to moral considerations. The vegan diet may be a bit faddy too, but it has a reason to stick around, while the keto diet could easily die out.

Conspiracy theories are also prone to fad behavior. It doesn't need to make too much sense if it's a fad.

Wearing a baseball cap backwards as a fad has similar spread to influenza. (said someone at a virology conference to me a few decades ago - i.e. My Own Research)
 
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Mark Quayle

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There's another thread leveraging this article
These four words are helping spread vaccine misinformation - CNN

...but I wanted to look at it from a different angle and with a slightly different tone by examining the practicality of managing public health outcomes based on opinions of non-experts "doing their own research", but with a subject that's not as highly politically charged, and not subject to any sort of mandates or restrictions or even the slightest inkling of government force, or with nearly as much of the vitriol people have for the topic of vaccines.

That topic: "Human Nutrition".

Specifically, the divide between Vegan and Keto advocates.

Mind you, I don't follow either dietary practice, and I'm not advocating for or trash-talking either one of these, that's not the point of the exercise.

I specifically picked this one because both factions have a high percentage of advocates who fancy themselves "well researched" and "well learned" on the topic of health and nutrition. If you know any advocates from either of these camps, you know they pride themselves on reading a lot of content, consuming a lot of documentaries from their favorite providers, and even attending conferences and lectures "Like KetoCon or VegFest" to listen to people with an MD or PhD speak on the topic.

If you know any die-hard vegans, they've well versed in the studies and writings of Dr. Gregor or Dr. Garth Davis or Dr. Caldwell Esselstyn...if you know any die-hard Keto followers, they're all well-versed on the papers by people like Dr. Paul Saladino or Bart Kay PhD.


How do two groups of people, who've all spent huge amounts of time "doing their own research" come up with such wildly different conclusions on the same subject?

There's only a couple possible conclusions
- One side got it really right, and the other got it really wrong
- Both sides got a few things right, and a few things wrong
- Both sides have specifically chosen the research that fits their ideology, and have chosen to focus exclusively on that and ignore all the other research.


How that applies more broadly, and specifically to the topic of sentiments of "parents know what's best for protecting their kids from a disease" or "a person knows what's best for their own health and is well qualified to make those decisions"...is that both of those sentiments fall flat.

There are several non-controversial, non-polarized topics where non-experts have "done their own research on it", and that research may have come a place of complete sincerity and didn't start off biased at all, but have come up with two nearly polar opposite conclusions on the topic.

How much weight should the "findings" of non-experts be given when it comes to something serious? (serious as in, impacts others and not just the person, themselves) IE: if two people have a difference in conclusion between Xbox vs. Playstation, that's largely inconsequential. However, if two people have a difference of opinion on the best way to address the apartment building that's about collapse...that's a different story, and it may be worth considering giving more merit to the "non-expert" opinion that happens to line up with the conclusion that the overwhelming majority of engineers seem to agree with.
Your first paragraph after the link shows your bias, or at least, your limits of information. There are experts on both sides. Many so-called 'experts'. But only one side's experts are recognized as such by the media; the rest are ignored or poo-pooed. Just saying...

Oh, and the apartment building is not about to collapse, though the economy ran pretty doggone close, and the fat lady hasn't sung yet.
 
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rambot

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Your first paragraph after the link shows your bias, or at least, your limits of information. There are experts on both sides. Many so-called 'experts'. But only one side's experts are recognized as such by the media; the rest are ignored or poo-pooed. Just saying...
.
NEVER go with the outlying data point.

96% of doctors got the shot.
 
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Jake Arsenal

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There's only a couple possible conclusions
- One side got it really right, and the other got it really wrong
- Both sides got a few things right, and a few things wrong
- Both sides have specifically chosen the research that fits their ideology, and have chosen to focus exclusively on that and ignore all the other research.

You missed the most likely conclusion(especially when it comes to the recognized experts): All sides could be reviewing all of the same data and interpreting it through the lenses of their own ideologies.

There may not be one right answer for everyone on any given subject. People have different values. Some people believe it is immoral to kill animals for food, while others may consider it a necessary evil. There may even be those who believe it is their moral obligation to kill animals for food.

Perhaps you disagree with one or all of those beliefs, but that does not mean that any of them are wrong or right. Most dietary science changes with the times. Was Ancel Keys right? Are Poly Unsaturated Fatty Acids better or worse than saturated fats? The spectrum of opinions among the recognized experts is astounding. A person can spend their whole lives researching one subject and still be wrong.

You came into this looking to make a point. Here is mine: Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.
 
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Ana the Ist

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There's another thread leveraging this article
These four words are helping spread vaccine misinformation - CNN

...but I wanted to look at it from a different angle and with a slightly different tone by examining the practicality of managing public health outcomes based on opinions of non-experts "doing their own research", but with a subject that's not as highly politically charged, and not subject to any sort of mandates or restrictions or even the slightest inkling of government force, or with nearly as much of the vitriol people have for the topic of vaccines.

That topic: "Human Nutrition".

Specifically, the divide between Vegan and Keto advocates.

Mind you, I don't follow either dietary practice, and I'm not advocating for or trash-talking either one of these, that's not the point of the exercise.

I specifically picked this one because both factions have a high percentage of advocates who fancy themselves "well researched" and "well learned" on the topic of health and nutrition. If you know any advocates from either of these camps, you know they pride themselves on reading a lot of content, consuming a lot of documentaries from their favorite providers, and even attending conferences and lectures "Like KetoCon or VegFest" to listen to people with an MD or PhD speak on the topic.

If you know any die-hard vegans, they've well versed in the studies and writings of Dr. Gregor or Dr. Garth Davis or Dr. Caldwell Esselstyn...if you know any die-hard Keto followers, they're all well-versed on the papers by people like Dr. Paul Saladino or Bart Kay PhD.


How do two groups of people, who've all spent huge amounts of time "doing their own research" come up with such wildly different conclusions on the same subject?

There's only a couple possible conclusions
- One side got it really right, and the other got it really wrong
- Both sides got a few things right, and a few things wrong
- Both sides have specifically chosen the research that fits their ideology, and have chosen to focus exclusively on that and ignore all the other research.


How that applies more broadly, and specifically to the topic of sentiments of "parents know what's best for protecting their kids from a disease" or "a person knows what's best for their own health and is well qualified to make those decisions"...is that both of those sentiments fall flat.

There are several non-controversial, non-polarized topics where non-experts have "done their own research on it", and that research may have come a place of complete sincerity and didn't start off biased at all, but have come up with two nearly polar opposite conclusions on the topic.

How much weight should the "findings" of non-experts be given when it comes to something serious? (serious as in, impacts others and not just the person, themselves) IE: if two people have a difference in conclusion between Xbox vs. Playstation, that's largely inconsequential. However, if two people have a difference of opinion on the best way to address the apartment building that's about collapse...that's a different story, and it may be worth considering giving more merit to the "non-expert" opinion that happens to line up with the conclusion that the overwhelming majority of engineers seem to agree with.

There's an issue of what makes someone an "expert" in something.

I have a degree in politics and I'm well studied on multiple political systems in history.

Should I declare myself an expert? Tell everyone they're simply wrong and don't know what they're talking about?

With vaccines, expertise is a little more clear. A virologist would be the ideal expert...but there are scientists tangential that are also experts to some extent or another.

But I don't know what anyone's credentials are in real life. I have to take a source's word for it. In this case, if there's a chance that the expert is in some way associated with the Wuhan lab, I don't think I would trust them.
 
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SamanthaAnastasia

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Look.
I’m a librarian. You need to do your own research.

The caveat is where you get your information.
There is tons of misinformation and poor resources out there. Information literacy is a vital skill in regard to researching. Internet and digital literacy is critical when researching online.

People who claim that they “do their own research” or for you to “do your own research” do not in fact “do their own research” with reputable, respectable, well researched resources. Some cannot even provide sources for their claims besides Facebook.

This is problematic.

Please. Feel free to do your own research. We librarians in fact encourage it. Just don’t get it from terrible sources like Facebook or random blogs.

PubMD is a great source.
LibGuides for research are great sources.

Deep web databases provided by your local library like Academic Search Premier etc are fantastic.

Please fight Facebook ignorance. It’s not even political at this point.
 
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JustSomeBloke

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Diet comparison fails to acknowledge that humans are individuals, and that what works well for one person, may be intolerable for someone else. For example, I had a girlfriend who was a vegetarian. Years after we had split up, she told me that she had to abandon her vegetarian diet, because she was struggling to obtain the levels of nutrition that her body needed. In simple terms, her vegetarianism was making her ill, and stopping her from leading a normal life.

Similarly, vaccine mandates fail to acknowledge that humans are individuals. For over 60s, and/or people with underlying health issues, vaccination may make sense. For under 60s, and those who are fit and without health issues, vaccination appears to have little to no benefits, and may even have significant drawbacks. Certainly there are children who have died shortly after vaccination.

And people simply make different value judgements as to what is the best course of action. It doesn't mean that either side is 100% right or wrong. For example, those who think lockdowns are a good idea typically have made a very covid-centric value analysis. They mostly ignore all the collateral damage that lockdowns cause, such as to non-covid healthcare, mental health education, jobs, the economy etc.

However, it is a long-established principle in medical ethics that patients must give informed consent, and treatment must be for the benefit of the patient. From that point of view, people must have the right to refuse treatments that don't have long-term trial data, and mandatory vaccination for the benefit of people other than the patient is forbidden.

I'd like to see some of the pro-vaxxers and fans of vaccine mandates address all of the red flags:
1. If the covid vaccines are so safe, why are the manufacturers not liable?
2. Some of the studies on vaccine effectiveness have been entirely performed by Pfizer employees and government Ministry of Health employees. The conflict of interest is glaring and unacceptable.
3. It is now long-established that covid vaccines are non-sterilising. They do not prevent infection and transmission. That makes vaccines and vaccine passports look like a trojan horse for total control over the entire population.
4. Most post-vaccination deaths are not referred to a coroner, so there is no proper investigation into post-vaccination deaths.
5. Normally a small number of post-vaccination deaths would be sufficient to halt trials, or if mass roll-out had commenced, so halt the roll-out. But not in this case. Why not?
6. The opposition to covid vaccines and vaccine mandates includes many esteemed scientists. But none are allowed to speak in the MSM, and many are silenced or cancelled on social media.
7. Project Veritas has secretly recorded Pfizer scientists admitting that naturally acquired immunity is superior, and yet the drive to vaccinate everyone, including those who have already gained natural immunity, and children who are at almost zero risk, continues.

There are many other red flags, but I really can't be bothered. I've already seen enough denialism from pro-vaxxers and those in favour of vaccine mandates to last me a lifetime.
 
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Mark Quayle

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Look.
I’m a librarian. You need to do your own research.

The caveat is where you get your information.
There is tons of misinformation and poor resources out there. Information literacy is a vital skill in regard to researching. Internet and digital literacy is critical when researching online.

People who claim that they “do their own research” or for you to “do your own research” do not in fact “do their own research” with reputable, respectable, well researched resources. Some cannot even provide sources for their claims besides Facebook.

This is problematic.

Please. Feel free to do your own research. We librarians in fact encourage it. Just don’t get it from terrible sources like Facebook or random blogs.

PubMD is a great source.
LibGuides for research are great sources.

Deep web databases provided by your local library like Academic Search Premier etc are fantastic.

Please fight Facebook ignorance. It’s not even political at this point.

Fine, but the problem remains. The publications others use, since Facebook and YouTube are not reliable, are STILL UNRELIABLE ALSO! Even the peer-reviewed scientific papers, etc, are full of bias, people-pleasing, politically correct garbage. I'm guessing that often the experiments/ tests themselves are biased and concluded by confirmation bias, to the point of expulsion of evidence to the contrary being discarded as flukes (no I can't prove it). (And yes, I am jaded.)
 
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rambot

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Fine, but the problem remains. The publications others use, since Facebook and YouTube are not reliable, are STILL UNRELIABLE ALSO! Even the peer-reviewed scientific papers, etc, are full of bias, people-pleasing, politically correct garbage. I'm guessing that often the experiments/ tests themselves are biased and concluded by confirmation bias, to the point of expulsion of evidence to the contrary being discarded as flukes (no I can't prove it). (And yes, I am jaded.)
You're not only jaded, you're also wrong.
If the peer reviewed scientific papers are "full of bias" then the scientific community would SHRED the reputation of the authors to bits, the paper would be reviewed and disproven and science would just continue to truck along.
 
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SamanthaAnastasia

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Fine, but the problem remains. The publications others use, since Facebook and YouTube are not reliable, are STILL UNRELIABLE ALSO! Even the peer-reviewed scientific papers, etc, are full of bias, people-pleasing, politically correct garbage. I'm guessing that often the experiments/ tests themselves are biased and concluded by confirmation bias, to the point of expulsion of evidence to the contrary being discarded as flukes (no I can't prove it). (And yes, I am jaded.)
Remember that a scientific theory (say, Evolution) doesn’t mean it’s a scientific law (say, Newton's laws of motion).
That’s not even counting hypothesis’ and experiments in the works.

The amount of medical peer-reviewed journals is numerous.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_medical_journals
And most of these are just listing the ones in English.

They run the experiment until they can either prove it (law) or at least make it unto a theory.

The trap you are falling into is intellectual nihilism.
I understand to approach all information with skepticism, however to be nihilistic about it and state that all sources are unreliable is unhelpful and leads to despair.
 
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Mark Quayle

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You're not only jaded, you're also wrong.
If the peer reviewed scientific papers are "full of bias" then the scientific community would SHRED the reputation of the authors to bits, the paper would be reviewed and disproven and science would just continue to truck along.
Just as they do with every opportunity to those who don't toe the line. And ignore those they can't disprove. (If there's no pictures (no reports in the media) it didn't happen, doesn't exist.)
 
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KCfromNC

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For under 60s, and those who are fit and without health issues, vaccination appears to have little to no benefits, and may even have significant drawbacks.
This is a good example of drawbacks of amateurs doing their own research mentioned in the OP. The conclusions are quite different from those from actual medical research.
 
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rambot

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Just as they do with every opportunity to those who don't toe the line. And ignore those they can't disprove. (If there's no pictures (no reports in the media) it didn't happen, doesn't exist.)
No. That is cynicism and it is false.

You have a fundamental bias against 10s of thousands of people because you don't like what they are telling you.

Not only that, You complain that certain scientists "are getting silenced" (which is, of course, utter balderdash otherwise you wouldn't be able to hear what they are saying, let alone put a link to it on christian forums).

I just explained that "poor science" is given it's due attention (read: a thorough critique and then ignored). So, what is actually a system functioning by keeping POOR science out, you view as good science being repressed.

Because you don't know how to distinguish good science from bad.
 
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SamanthaAnastasia

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Just as they do with every opportunity to those who don't toe the line. And ignore those they can't disprove. (If there's no pictures (no reports in the media) it didn't happen, doesn't exist.)
This is a dangerous mindset.
Again, don’t fall into the trap of intellectual nihilism, fallibilism, or Descartes’ “Evil Demon Problem”.

This radical skepticism and academic skepticism becomes dangerous when placed alongside political nihilism.
 
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Everyone, that I know. That's had the COVID-19 vaccinations. They had no issues. I do know a few people . That died of COVID-19 . They were against mask wearing , social distancing and vaccinations. Their belief were stupid and cost them their lives.
 
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