post-Trib, Pre-mill RAPTURE

The previous scriptures in Revelation etc. seem to disagree with that belief. Not to mention that John says..John 3:13 ''no one has ascended to heaven except Jesus''.
Acts 2:34 For David did not ascend into the skies! But he said, ‘The Master said to my Master, sit out from My right [hand] until I should place your enemies under your feet.’

God placed man in the Garden of Eden on the ''land at the beginning and walked with him there.

The end of the bible says God will come live with us here on the ''land''.

All scriptures from beginning to the end of the bible confirm that the righteous will inherit ''land''.

Revelation 21:2 And I saw the Holy City, renewed Jerusalem,460 descending out of the sky from God461 prepared like a bride having been adorned for her husband.462 3 And I heard a loud voice from the sky saying: “Look! ‘The tent of God is with men; and He will dwell with them; and they will be His people; and God Himself will be with them – their God.’463

*460 Isaiah 62:2; Isaiah 65:18-19; Gal. 4:26-27; Heb. 12:22. The “renewed Jerusalem” consists of the restored Jerusalem and her inhabitants. She is the “woman” described in Rev. 12, now glorified. In Galatians 4:26-27, Paul called “elevated Jerusalem” the “mother of us all,” and immediately quoted the opening verses of Isaiah 54, a prophecy of Jerusalem’s restoration from barrenness. This is the city Abraham waited for (Heb. 11:9-10) according to the promise confirmed by Melchizedek, “King of Salem” (Gen. 14:18; Heb. 7:1-2), for which faithful Christians also wait (Heb. 12:22-23). Isaiah 60 & 62 are also foundational to this passage. See notes for chapter 12.
*461 This bride descending out of the sky is an allegory representing the restoration of Jerusalem by God’s power rather than mans’ power.
*462 Isaiah 54:5
*463 Paraphrase of Ezekiel 37:27 Ezekiel 43:7. The Renewed Jerusalem is a dwelling suitable for the SOVEREIGN OVER ALL to cohabitate with perfected mankind. Yet, even this magnificent city is called God’s “tent,” because even its splendor is inadequate to fully reflect the glory of the SOVEREIGN OVER ALL!

You miss understand. The believers are not being protected in any temple on earth.
The Temple Chambers refer to the time after the tribulation in the 1000 year Kingdom rule on Earth.
Some believers will be serving in the Kingdom Temple as Priests.
Rev. 1:6 and made us Kingdom priests16 to His God and Father – to Him be the glory and the power unto the ages of the ages,
*16 The Textus Receptus reads “kings and priests.” This Kingdom priesthood of believers will commence in the Millennium. (See Rev. 20:6).

Rev.20:6 Blessed and holy is the one having a part in the first resurrection. Over these the second death has no power, but they shall be priests443 of God and of the Anointed, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.

443 Peter stated that believers are now being prepared for a future priesthood, so they may offer sacrifices to God on behalf of the people. “You also, as living stones, are being constructed [into] a spiritual house, a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus the Anointed one.” (1 Peter 2:5 LGV). Hebrews concurs: “How much greater the blood of the Anointed one, Who offered Himself flawless to God through the age-enduring Breath, will cleanse your conscience from dead acts unto what is to be divine service to the living God!” (Heb. 9:14 LGV).

[LGV] Hebrews 9:14 how much greater the blood of the Anointed, Who offered Himself flawless to God through the permanent Breath, will cleanse your conscience from dead acts unto what is to be180 divine service to the living God!
*180 Paul here describes a future ‘priesthood’ in the coming Kingdom for believers whose deliverance has been completed. The future Millennial Priesthood is also referenced by Peter. “And you also, as living stones, are a spiritual house being constructed, a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.” (1 Peter 2:5*). At the end of the age, the 24 elders proclaim: “You are worthy to take the scroll, and to open its seals, because You were slain, and have redeemed some to God with Your blood from every tribe, and language, and people, and nation, and have made them to be kings and priests to our God. And they shall reign on the land,” (Rev. 5:9-10*). The prophets also agree, (Isaiah 56:1-8; Isaiah 60:1-7; Jer. 33:14-22 Ezekiel 44:15-16; Zech. 14:21).


Rev. 5:10 and made them kings and priests to our God. And they shall reign on the land.”

Yosoyguapo said:

The previous scriptures in Revelation etc. seem to disagree with that belief. Not to mention that John says..John 3:13 ''no one has ascended to heaven except Jesus''.
Acts 2:34 For David did not ascend into the skies! But he said, ‘The Master said to my Master, sit out from My right [hand] until I should place your enemies under your feet.’

God placed man in the Garden of Eden on the ''land at the beginning and walked with him there.

The end of the bible says God will come live with us here on the ''land''.

All scriptures from beginning to the end of the bible confirm that the righteous will inherit ''land''.

Revelation 21:2 And I saw the Holy City, renewed Jerusalem,460 descending out of the sky from God461 prepared like a bride having been adorned for her husband.462 3 And I heard a loud voice from the sky saying: “Look! ‘The tent of God is with men; and He will dwell with them; and they will be His people; and God Himself will be with them – their God.’463

*460 Isaiah 62:2; Isaiah 65:18-19; Gal. 4:26-27; Heb. 12:22. The “renewed Jerusalem” consists of the restored Jerusalem and her inhabitants. She is the “woman” described in Rev. 12, now glorified. In Galatians 4:26-27, Paul called “elevated Jerusalem” the “mother of us all,” and immediately quoted the opening verses of Isaiah 54, a prophecy of Jerusalem’s restoration from barrenness. This is the city Abraham waited for (Heb. 11:9-10) according to the promise confirmed by Melchizedek, “King of Salem” (Gen. 14:18; Heb. 7:1-2), for which faithful Christians also wait (Heb. 12:22-23). Isaiah 60 & 62 are also foundational to this passage. See notes for chapter 12.
*461 This bride descending out of the sky is an allegory representing the restoration of Jerusalem by God’s power rather than mans’ power.
*462 Isaiah 54:5
*463 Paraphrase of Ezekiel 37:27 Ezekiel 43:7. The Renewed Jerusalem is a dwelling suitable for the SOVEREIGN OVER ALL to cohabitate with perfected mankind. Yet, even this magnificent city is called God’s “tent,” because even its splendor is inadequate to fully reflect the glory of the SOVEREIGN OVER ALL!

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Like I said. I agree, the eternity is on a renewed earth.
Heaven is a stopover because the planet we live on, will be subjected to severe judgements.
and where did Enoch and Elijah go then if your interpretation of John 3:13 means they didn't go to heaven?
It said God took them.

Yosoyguapo said:

You miss understand. The believers are not being protected in any temple on earth.
The Temple Chambers refer to the time after the tribulation in the 1000 year Kingdom rule on Earth.
Some believers will be serving in the Kingdom Temple as Priests.
Rev. 1:6 and made us Kingdom priests16 to His God and Father – to Him be the glory and the power unto the ages of the ages,
*16 The Textus Receptus reads “kings and priests.” This Kingdom priesthood of believers will commence in the Millennium. (See Rev. 20:6).

Rev.20:6 Blessed and holy is the one having a part in the first resurrection. Over these the second death has no power, but they shall be priests443 of God and of the Anointed, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.

443 Peter stated that believers are now being prepared for a future priesthood, so they may offer sacrifices to God on behalf of the people. “You also, as living stones, are being constructed [into] a spiritual house, a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus the Anointed one.” (1 Peter 2:5 LGV). Hebrews concurs: “How much greater the blood of the Anointed one, Who offered Himself flawless to God through the age-enduring Breath, will cleanse your conscience from dead acts unto what is to be divine service to the living God!” (Heb. 9:14 LGV).

[LGV] Hebrews 9:14 how much greater the blood of the Anointed, Who offered Himself flawless to God through the permanent Breath, will cleanse your conscience from dead acts unto what is to be180 divine service to the living God!
*180 Paul here describes a future ‘priesthood’ in the coming Kingdom for believers whose deliverance has been completed. The future Millennial Priesthood is also referenced by Peter. “And you also, as living stones, are a spiritual house being constructed, a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.” (1 Peter 2:5*). At the end of the age, the 24 elders proclaim: “You are worthy to take the scroll, and to open its seals, because You were slain, and have redeemed some to God with Your blood from every tribe, and language, and people, and nation, and have made them to be kings and priests to our God. And they shall reign on the land,” (Rev. 5:9-10*). The prophets also agree, (Isaiah 56:1-8; Isaiah 60:1-7; Jer. 33:14-22 Ezekiel 44:15-16; Zech. 14:21).


Rev. 5:10 and made them kings and priests to our God. And they shall reign on the land.”

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Isaiah 26 referred to hiding from the indignation (the wrath of God).
if that temple is not here until the millennium, which comes AFTER the indignation...

yeah sorry, it does not make sense.

so let's see here
Isaiah is resurrected (he includes himself in the resurrection), just before the indignation and tells people to hide in temple chambers... in a temple that is not on earth until after the indignation... without going to heaven where that temple is now?

Now with a rapture to heaven it makes sense, we take shelter in the temple in heaven if you want to be that literal about the chambers, the indignation/wrath of God happens, then we come back with Jesus on white horses, as in Revelation 19.. also a common motif throughout the bible..
and said in Zechariah 14:5

5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the Lord my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

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So we go up, hang out for a little bit apparently sing some songs.. then come back down with Jesus.

If at any point there seems to be a contradiction between scriptures either the bible is wrong or our interpretation is wrong. Clearly we would be wrong and not the bible.

Think about this, the bible does not say Enoch was taken to heaven. But if you have that belief you can read that into the verse. Also notice that the word heaven is what we would call sky as explained in Genesis. It is where the birds fly, not a place where God dwells. You have to correctly define terms as the bible defines them, mostly starting in Genesis.

The bible says Enoch was taken/transported....But it does not say where, and it does not say heaven.
Notice in verse Heb. 11:13 It says all these died in faith, Enoch is in that list, so he must have died at some point.


[LGV] Hebrews 11:5 In faith Enoch was transported242 to avoid seeing death,243 and was not located244 because God transported him. For before his transporting he was documented to have fully pleased God.245

*242 That is, relocated (cf. 1 Acts 8:39). Enoch’s destination is not stated anywhere in Scripture. Some have suggested the Garden of Eden, where he may have continued to live out his remaining years in peace and walking with God. In any case, he did not ascend to heaven, since Jesus is the only one to have done so (John 3:13).
*243 Enoch was transported to spare his life. This does not mean he never died. Verse 13 says, “these all died according to faith.” Josephus indicates that Seth’s descendants remained separate from the rest of the population and continued to be righteous through the seventh generation (Enoch’s), but that the next generation turned away from God and became wicked and violent (Josephus, Antiquities of the Jews, Bk. I, ch. 2-3). This may explain why Enoch’s life may have been in danger.
*244 The imperfect tense of the verb suggests that a search for Enoch took place over a period of time, implying that those searching for him believed he was somewhere still on the earth.
*245 Genesis 5:22

It is the same for Elijah, he was transported away because his life was under threat.
Based on biblical chronology Elijah sent a letter some 14 years after being taken away by God to King Jehoram of Judah 1 Chron. 2:12-15.

2 Kings 2:17But when they pressed him to the point of embarrassment, he said, “Send them.” And they sent fifty men, who searched for three days but did not find Elijah. 18When they returned to Elisha, who was staying in Jericho, he said to them, “Didn’t I tell you not to go?”…

Why would they look for Elijah if they thought he had been taken to heaven?

The interpretation of Elijah and Enoch being taken away to another location and living out their years fits with the scriptures and shows no conflict with John 3:13.

The belief that they or anyone else has ascended to heaven means John 3:13 is incorrect and we have a clear conflict. You need to really twist the scriptures to come up with anything else.

Details matter, there is only one truth but many falsehoods

Snares of Satan

The great deceiver has many agents ready to present any and every kind of error to ensnare souls—heresies prepared to suit the varied tastes and capacities of those whom he would ruin. It is his plan to bring into the church insincere, unregenerate elements that will encourage doubt and unbelief, and hinder all who desire to see the work of God advance and to advance with it. Many who have no real faith in God or in His word assent to some principles of truth and pass as Christians, and thus they are enabled to introduce their errors as Scriptural doctrines.

The position that it is of no consequence what men believe is one of Satan's most successful deceptions. He knows that the truth, received in the love of it, sanctifies the soul of the receiver; therefore he is constantly seeking to substitute false theories, fables, another gospel. From the beginning the servants of God have contended against false teachers, not merely as vicious men, but as inculcators of falsehoods that were fatal to the soul. Elijah, Jeremiah, Paul, firmly and fearlessly opposed those who were turning men from the word of God. That liberality which regards a correct religious faith as unimportant found no favor with these holy defenders of the truth.

The vague and fanciful interpretations of Scripture, and the many conflicting theories concerning religious faith, that are found in the Christian world are the work of our great adversary to confuse minds so that they shall not discern the truth. And the discord and division which exist among the churches of Christendom are in a great measure due to the prevailing custom of wresting the Scriptures to support a favorite theory. Instead of carefully studying God's word with humility of heart to obtain a knowledge of His will, many seek only to discover something odd or original.

In order to sustain erroneous doctrines or unchristian practices, some will seize upon passages of Scripture separated from the context, perhaps quoting half of a single verse as proving their point, when the remaining portion would show the meaning to be quite the opposite. With the cunning of the serpent they entrench themselves behind disconnected utterances construed to suit their carnal desires. Thus do many willfully pervert the word of God. Others, who have an active imagination, seize upon the figures and symbols of Holy Writ, interpret them to suit their fancy, with little regard to the testimony of Scripture as its own interpreter, and then they present their vagaries as the teachings of the Bible.

Snares of Satan

2 Peter 2:1 KJV
But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

Jamdoc said:

Like I said. I agree, the eternity is on a renewed earth.
Heaven is a stopover because the planet we live on, will be subjected to severe judgements.
and where did Enoch and Elijah go then if your interpretation of John 3:13 means they didn't go to heaven?
It said God took them.

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Only those who worship the beast or take his image are subject to God's wrath.

[LGV] Rev. 14:9 And another messenger,316 a third, followed them, saying with a loud voice: “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives the mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he also shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God which is mixed undiluted in the cup of His wrath.317

*316 The third messenger (vss. 9-13) describes the beast system, its mark, and the worship of the image described in chapter 13. This occurs throughout the last half of the 70th week
*317 This is a reference to the bowls of wrath which are to be poured out just before Jesus returns (Rev. 15:1).

[LGV] Rev.16:2 And the first went and poured his bowl upon the land and a vicious and malignant ulcer came upon men – those having the mark of the beast and those worshipping its image.346

*346 It is significant that the bowls of wrath, which are the most severe blows of all, are specifically targeted at those who worship the Beast and take his mark. The obvious intent is to show that God’s wrath is selective and that He distinguishes between the wicked and righteous when He pours out His judgments. Psalm 91 predicts these same judgments with precisely the same message.

Yosoyguapo said:

Only those who worship the beast or take his image are subject to God's wrath.

[LGV] Rev. 14:9 And another messenger,316 a third, followed them, saying with a loud voice: “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives the mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he also shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God which is mixed undiluted in the cup of His wrath.317

*316 The third messenger (vss. 9-13) describes the beast system, its mark, and the worship of the image described in chapter 13. This occurs throughout the last half of the 70th week
*317 This is a reference to the bowls of wrath which are to be poured out just before Jesus returns (Rev. 15:1).

[LGV] Rev.16:2 And the first went and poured his bowl upon the land and a vicious and malignant ulcer came upon men – those having the mark of the beast and those worshipping its image.346

*346 It is significant that the bowls of wrath, which are the most severe blows of all, are specifically targeted at those who worship the Beast and take his mark. The obvious intent is to show that God’s wrath is selective and that He distinguishes between the wicked and righteous when He pours out His judgments. Psalm 91 predicts these same judgments with precisely the same message.

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and others affect the entire world.
all the water turns to blood
unmarked can't survive drinking blood any more than marked.

Yosoyguapo said:

[LGV]

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LAST GENERATION VERSION of the New Testament By Tim Warner, Copyright © www.4windsfellowships.net

Daniel’s 70 Weeks By Tim Warner © www.4windsfellowships.net

"For most of my Christian life, I have accepted the unanimous chorus of conservative Christian chronologists, including Ussher, that the 70 weeks of Daniel 9 total 490 years, and that the first 69 weeks span the time from Artaxerxes’ command to Nehemiah until the crucifixion of Jesus Christ. I also held Sir Robert Anderson’s theory of “prophetic years” consisting of 360 days each, because it seemed to fit the time frame so precisely. However, my detailed study of chronology over the last year has forced me to abandon these as completely untenable. This article is a retraction of my former position, and explanation of why I have changed my opinion. My conclusions are as follows:
 The 70 weeks of years are regular solar years (lunar years corrected to the solar)
 The period covered by 70 weeks is not 490 years, but 500 years
 The beginning of the 70 weeks is not the decree of Artaxerxes, but of Cyrus."

The One True God is the Father By Tim Warner, Copyright © 4Winds Fellowships

"That Jesus could not have understood the Shema as a Trinity of three co-equal, co-eternal Persons..."
The Shema is an affirmation of Judaism and a declaration of faith in one God.

Please do not follow this teacher as he denies the Trinity

Yosoyguapo said:

My objective is not to argue or change your mind, it is up to God to show you what is true.
I held the view of ascending to heaven previously. But it is not taught in the bible.
With a wrong view you can make the mistake of interpreting scripture in that light and therefore arrive at wrong conclusions, such as here in the book of Revelation.

The belief that people go to heaven is a Platonic Greek view which has corrupted Christianity. It has never been the view of the OT Prophets or the NT Apostles of Christ.
The hope of the Old Testament is Eternal life through the resurrection of the body and to inherit the ''land'' as God promised Abraham and his seed.
The hope is the same in the NT.
Plato taught that to escape the physical corrupt body and ascend to heaven was a good thing.
Therefore death is our friend.
Paul taught that death was our enemy and only at the resurrection would we see victory, that is the opposite of Platonism and a belief in ascending to heaven at death.

1 Corinthians 15:51 Look! I am telling you a mystery. Not all of us will be laid to sleep, but we all will be changed299 52 in an instant, in the blink of the eye, in the last trumpet. For He will sound the trumpet300 and the dead will be aroused non-corrupt, and we will be changed. 53 For this corrupt thing301 [is] required to put on302 non-corruption, and this dying thing to put on immortality. 54 But whenever303 this corrupt thing should put on non-corruption, and this dying thing should put on immortality, then will occur the word which has been written, “Death was swallowed into victory.”304 55 Death, where is your sting? Grave, where is your victory? 56.

*299 John 11:25-26
*300 This is the Jubilee Trumpet, sounded on the Day of Atonement (Tishri 10) every 50th year, (Lev. 25:9; Zech. 9:14; Matt. 24:29-31; 1 Thess. 4:16).
*301 The corpse that is buried
*302 The verb implies to clothe one’s self. Thus, the mortal, human body will be clothed with God’s immortality in the resurrection. It is significant that Paul did not use the word “become,” change from one state to a different state. This implies that immortality in the resurrection will always remain dependent upon God, the only one who is inherently immortal (1 Tim. 6:16).
*303 It is important to note that Paul places victory over our enemy, death, at the resurrection at Christ’s return. The Platonism of the Corinthians saw the alleged release of the immortal ghost from the body as victory over the prison of physical matter. Most of modern Christianity makes the same mistake.
*304 Isa. 25:8 LXX

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The body of Christ entered Paradise at the Cross. The thief on the Cross was the first convert. Physical bodies came out of their graves, the first resurrection. They ascended to Paradise. At the Second Coming Paradise is assembled from the four corners of Paradise to meet those on the earth in mid-air. In 2 Corinthians 5, states there is a permanent incorruptible physical body for the soul since the Cross.

The Greeks have a rip off of what Paradise is, because all their mythology comes from Satan. Satan has tried to pre-empt all of God's plans. That does not mean Christians copied from the Greeks.

BobRyan said:

Agreed. Two literal resurrections.

What the Bible calls "The first resurrection" in Rev 20:3-5 happens at the Rev 19 appearing of Christ where the saints are raptured 1 Thess 4:13-18 and "the rest were killed" Rev 19.

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You said you agreed, but you must have misinterpreted what I was saying because I was definitely not saying that the first resurrection occurs at the Rev 19 appearing of Christ. Christ's resurrection itself was the first resurrection (Acts 26:23, 1 Cor 15:20;22, Col 1:18, Rev 1:5) and we have part in His resurrection when we are spiritually saved and go from spiritually dead in our sins to spiritually alive in Christ. That is what John 5:24-25 and Ephesians 2:1-6 are about.

Yosoyguapo said:

My objective is not to argue or change your mind, it is up to God to show you what is true.
I held the view of ascending to heaven previously. But it is not taught in the bible.
With a wrong view you can make the mistake of interpreting scripture in that light and therefore arrive at wrong conclusions, such as here in the book of Revelation.

The belief that people go to heaven is a Platonic Greek view which has corrupted Christianity.

Click to expand...

No, it isn't. You have no idea of what you're talking about. The following passage, which you were already shown (did you ignore it?), shows believers being in heaven waiting for Christ to avenge their blood.

Revelation 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? 11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Remember, John was shown visions of heaven and this scene is in heaven. So, don't tell me that no one is in heaven now. The souls of the dead in Christ are clearly there.

Also, Jesus told the thief on the cross that he would be with Him in paradise (the third heaven - 2 Cor 12:2-4) on the day He died.

Luke 23:42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom. 43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.

It has never been the view of the OT Prophets or the NT Apostles of Christ.

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Prove it. You're all opinion and no scripture.

The hope of the Old Testament is Eternal life through the resurrection of the body and to inherit the ''land'' as God promised Abraham and his seed.
The hope is the same in the NT.
Plato taught that to escape the physical corrupt body and ascend to heaven was a good thing.
Therefore death is our friend.
Paul taught that death was our enemy and only at the resurrection would we see victory, that is the opposite of Platonism and a belief in ascending to heaven at death.

Click to expand...

Paul taught that to be apart from the body is to be present with the Lord.

2 Corinthians 5:6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: 7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight) 8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

You're acting as if all there is to us is our bodies and that is simply not true.

1 Corinthians 15:51 Look! I am telling you a mystery. Not all of us will be laid to sleep, but we all will be changed299 52 in an instant, in the blink of the eye, in the last trumpet. For He will sound the trumpet300 and the dead will be aroused non-corrupt, and we will be changed. 53 For this corrupt thing301 [is] required to put on302 non-corruption, and this dying thing to put on immortality. 54 But whenever303 this corrupt thing should put on non-corruption, and this dying thing should put on immortality, then will occur the word which has been written, “Death was swallowed into victory.”304 55 Death, where is your sting? Grave, where is your victory? 56.

*299 John 11:25-26
*300 This is the Jubilee Trumpet, sounded on the Day of Atonement (Tishri 10) every 50th year, (Lev. 25:9; Zech. 9:14; Matt. 24:29-31; 1 Thess. 4:16).
*301 The corpse that is buried
*302 The verb implies to clothe one’s self. Thus, the mortal, human body will be clothed with God’s immortality in the resurrection. It is significant that Paul did not use the word “become,” change from one state to a different state. This implies that immortality in the resurrection will always remain dependent upon God, the only one who is inherently immortal (1 Tim. 6:16).
*303 It is important to note that Paul places victory over our enemy, death, at the resurrection at Christ’s return. The Platonism of the Corinthians saw the alleged release of the immortal ghost from the body as victory over the prison of physical matter. Most of modern Christianity makes the same mistake.
*304 Isa. 25:8 LXX

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Those verses are about the BODY. Are you somehow not aware that there is more to us than our bodies?

1 Thessalonians 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

ewq1938 said:

Still shows the saints are in heaven after dying.

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That's true but I think the argument that he had was specific about there being no rapture but it does appear that he might be a soul sleep proponent in which case yes, even pointing out the souls in the 5th seal does show that they are in heaven and are conscious.

But.. one thing I would point out.. is that they do not seem content or happy, they are crying out for justice.

2 ways to look at this.
if those who claim that the 5th seal includes all martyrs going back to Stephen, and is opened now (which is a lot of people even those who purport to be futurists), then those who have been martyred for thousands of years.. have been impatiently crying out for justice and are not content in heaven for thousands of years.. Which is kind of a discouraging thought.
Or.. that it is purely a future event and the discontented martyr souls are only crying out for justice for a short period of time, no more than a few years.

In contrast in Revelation 7 they are full of joy, a sharp contrast, that's part of why I think the rapture has taken place at that point, they seem to have bodies and they are content where prior they were just souls and they were not content.

Spiritual Jew said:

No, it isn't. You have no idea of what you're talking about. The following passage, which you were already shown (did you ignore it?), shows believers being in heaven waiting for Christ to avenge their blood.

Revelation 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? 11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Remember, John was shown visions of heaven and this scene is in heaven. So, don't tell me that no one is in heaven now. The souls of the dead in Christ are clearly there.

Also, Jesus told the thief on the cross that he would be with Him in paradise (the third heaven - 2 Cor 12:2-4) on the day He died.

Luke 23:42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom. 43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.

Prove it. You're all opinion and no scripture.

Paul taught that to be apart from the body is to be present with the Lord.

2 Corinthians 5:6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: 7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight) 8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

You're acting as if all there is to us is our bodies and that is simply not true.

Those verses are about the BODY. Are you somehow not aware that there is more to us than our bodies?

1 Thessalonians 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

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If John 3:13 tells us no one has ascended to heaven except Jesus, any other belief is clearly false. Ascending to heaven is Greek Mythology popularized by Plato.

It is quite funny that you swap terms like paradise [Garden] to mean heaven [Sky]. You must remain consistent from the beginning of the bible to the end.

” The term “Paradise” is a transliteration of the Greek word “παραδείσῳ” (paradeisos). It was the common word in Greek for a lush and well-manicured garden or park. It is used in Genesis (LXX) many times for the “Garden of Eden,” in which was the Tree of Life. Isaiah prophesied of the restoration of the Land in Christ’s Kingdom, that it will again be like “the Garden of the Lord.” Isaiah 51:3 LXX 3 And now I will comfort you, O Zion. And I have comforted all her desert places; and I will make her desert places as the Garden [παραδείσῳ], and her western places as the Garden [paradeisos] of the Lord; they will find in her gladness and exultation, thanksgiving and the voice of praise. In Genesis, Eden was the Paradise of the Lord, to be distinguish from any other garden, because the Lord planted the Paradise of Eden. 4 Isaiah here used the same term to describe the Land in Messiah’s Kingdom.


The common Jews were typically taught from the Septuagint in the synagogues. Therefore, this thief would have been familiar with the use of “paradeisos” from the synagogue, that it was the Garden of God where the Tree of Life was, and that it will be restored in Messiah’s Kingdom as the abode of the righteous. “Paradise” would be restored when the desert blossoms as a rose.5 The New Testament is consistent with the Septuagint, and also places the Tree of Life in the Paradise of God, in the Kingdom.

Rev. 2:7 NKJV 7 “He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes I will give to eat from the tree of life, which is in the midst of the Paradise (Garden) of God.” Rev. 22:1-3, 14 NKJV 1 And he showed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding from the throne of God and of the Lamb. 2 In the middle of its street, and on either side of the river, was the tree of life, which bore twelve fruits, each tree yielding its fruit every month. The leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. … 14 Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city.

Thus, “Paradise” (the Garden of the Lord) in prophecy is synonymous with the Messiah’s Kingdom, and is the abode of the righteous after the resurrection. “Paradise” is always a real physical place on earth with real trees and vegetation.

Yosoyguapo said:

If John 3:13 tells us no one has ascended to heaven except Jesus, any other belief is clearly false. Ascending to heaven is Greek Mythology popularized by Plato.

It is quite funny that you swap terms like paradise [Garden] to mean heaven [Sky]. You must remain consistent from the beginning of the bible to the end.

” The term “Paradise” is a transliteration of the Greek word “παραδείσῳ” (paradeisos). It was the common word in Greek for a lush and well-manicured garden or park. It is used in Genesis (LXX) many times for the “Garden of Eden,” in which was the Tree of Life. Isaiah prophesied of the restoration of the Land in Christ’s Kingdom, that it will again be like “the Garden of the Lord.” Isaiah 51:3 LXX 3 And now I will comfort you, O Zion. And I have comforted all her desert places; and I will make her desert places as the Garden [παραδείσῳ], and her western places as the Garden [paradeisos] of the Lord; they will find in her gladness and exultation, thanksgiving and the voice of praise. In Genesis, Eden was the Paradise of the Lord, to be distinguish from any other garden, because the Lord planted the Paradise of Eden. 4 Isaiah here used the same term to describe the Land in Messiah’s Kingdom.


The common Jews were typically taught from the Septuagint in the synagogues. Therefore, this thief would have been familiar with the use of “paradeisos” from the synagogue, that it was the Garden of God where the Tree of Life was, and that it will be restored in Messiah’s Kingdom as the abode of the righteous. “Paradise” would be restored when the desert blossoms as a rose.5 The New Testament is consistent with the Septuagint, and also places the Tree of Life in the Paradise of God, in the Kingdom.

Rev. 2:7 NKJV 7 “He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes I will give to eat from the tree of life, which is in the midst of the Paradise (Garden) of God.” Rev. 22:1-3, 14 NKJV 1 And he showed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding from the throne of God and of the Lamb. 2 In the middle of its street, and on either side of the river, was the tree of life, which bore twelve fruits, each tree yielding its fruit every month. The leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. … 14 Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city.

Thus, “Paradise” (the Garden of the Lord) in prophecy is synonymous with the Messiah’s Kingdom, and is the abode of the righteous after the resurrection. “Paradise” is always a real physical place on earth with real trees and vegetation.

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You're going to go with 1 out of context verse, over the repeated scripture in both old and new testament about this subject?

That's why every truth needs two witnesses to be true biblically. 1 out of context verse does not cut it.
Enoch and Elijah are both witnesses to being able to be translated into heaven without dying, and Elijah and Moses are witnesses that came back down from heaven and rose back up into it, displaying that Moses had died and been present with the Lord.

Spiritual Jew said:

No, it isn't. You have no idea of what you're talking about. The following passage, which you were already shown (did you ignore it?), shows believers being in heaven waiting for Christ to avenge their blood.

Revelation 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? 11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Remember, John was shown visions of heaven and this scene is in heaven. So, don't tell me that no one is in heaven now. The souls of the dead in Christ are clearly there.

Also, Jesus told the thief on the cross that he would be with Him in paradise (the third heaven - 2 Cor 12:2-4) on the day He died.

Luke 23:42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom. 43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.

Prove it. You're all opinion and no scripture.

Paul taught that to be apart from the body is to be present with the Lord.

2 Corinthians 5:6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: 7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight) 8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

You're acting as if all there is to us is our bodies and that is simply not true.

Those verses are about the BODY. Are you somehow not aware that there is more to us than our bodies?

1 Thessalonians 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

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Also, Jesus told the thief on the cross that he would be with Him in paradise (the third heaven - 2 Cor 12:2-4) on the day He died.


Luke 23:43 And Jesus said to him, "Truly I say to you today, You will be with Me in the Garden."

You do realize that the original Greek does not contain punctuation? The words were also in fact all joined together with no spaces between them. The placement of the punctuation is purely up to the theology of the person translating it. The English Bible is filled with many errors. Words added in, words omitted, chapter divisions in the wrong place etc. See next post for an example.

1. Jesus clearly, according to the gospel accounts did not appear in heaven with the thief on that day.
2. Jesus was not telling the thief he was going to be in heaven with him that day. But letting the thief know he has passed judgement there and then and informing the thief he would be in the kingdom [Paradise or Garden of God] with him, when the Kingdom came. The thief would have understood that because he was taught like all other little Jewish boys that eternal life comes via the resurrection. Not by a ghost ascending to heaven as the pagans taught.
It is a beautiful story of love, in Jesus dying breath, he passes judgement to alleviate the thief's concern about where he will spend eternity.

Spiritual Jew said:

No, it isn't. You have no idea of what you're talking about. The following passage, which you were already shown (did you ignore it?), shows believers being in heaven waiting for Christ to avenge their blood.

Revelation 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? 11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Remember, John was shown visions of heaven and this scene is in heaven. So, don't tell me that no one is in heaven now. The souls of the dead in Christ are clearly there.

Also, Jesus told the thief on the cross that he would be with Him in paradise (the third heaven - 2 Cor 12:2-4) on the day He died.

Luke 23:42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom. 43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.

Prove it. You're all opinion and no scripture.

Paul taught that to be apart from the body is to be present with the Lord.

2 Corinthians 5:6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: 7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight) 8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

You're acting as if all there is to us is our bodies and that is simply not true.

Those verses are about the BODY. Are you somehow not aware that there is more to us than our bodies?

1 Thessalonians 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

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Just one example of a translation error.

NIV 2 Peter 2:4For if God did not spare the angels when they sinned, but cast them deep into hell, placing them in chains of darkness to be held for judgment

Translators inject Greek mythology into their translations. The NKJV for example incorrectly has cast them down to hell. The word elsewhere translated hell is gehenna. Here it is tartaroO which is a verb, not a noun, and it is in the aorist tense (which points to something that occurred in the past). So it is not a place, but rather an action. This is where Greek mythology comes into play. The verb itself simply means to incarcerate without implying any particular place. But because the pagan Greeks thought of the underworld as the domain of the God Hades, who held and punished captive ghosts, the place itself was called Tarturus by these pagans (which is a noun derived from the verb - tartaroO). And because many Bible translators seem to like Greek mythology and its incorporation into Christianity by Rome, they actually believe the Greek myth, and so interpret the verb tartaroO (incarcerated) as though it was the name of the place where the pagans believed these ghosts were imprisoned. The clause in 2 Pet. 2v4 should be translated but incarcerated with bonds.

Spiritual Jew said:

No, it isn't. You have no idea of what you're talking about. The following passage, which you were already shown (did you ignore it?), shows believers being in heaven waiting for Christ to avenge their blood.

Revelation 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? 11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Remember, John was shown visions of heaven and this scene is in heaven. So, don't tell me that no one is in heaven now. The souls of the dead in Christ are clearly there.

Also, Jesus told the thief on the cross that he would be with Him in paradise (the third heaven - 2 Cor 12:2-4) on the day He died.

Luke 23:42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom. 43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.

Prove it. You're all opinion and no scripture.

Paul taught that to be apart from the body is to be present with the Lord.

2 Corinthians 5:6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: 7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight) 8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

You're acting as if all there is to us is our bodies and that is simply not true.

Those verses are about the BODY. Are you somehow not aware that there is more to us than our bodies?

1 Thessalonians 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Click to expand...

The bible is consistent from beginning to end on what we are and our destiny.

Gen 2:7 Adam was formed from the dust of the earth, exactly the same as animals were in Genesis 2:19. They both were called living souls. English translations will have being or creature etc. But the word is Nephesh in Hebrew.

Gen 2:7 Then the Lord God formed a man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.

Gen 3:19 By the sweat of your brow
you will eat your food
until you return to the ground,
since from it you were taken;
for dust you are
and to dust you will return.”

Man did not come to life until God gave him life through ''His Breath''.

A person consists of a body, and the breath/spirit of God. The physical body is animated by the breath of God. So when the breath of God departs the body, you will die. James 2:26

We do not posses our own spirit. We have the spirit /breath of God.

Psalm 146:4 When his spirit departs, he returns to the ground; on that very day his plans perish.

Psalm 104:29
When You hide Your face, they are terrified; when You take away their breath, they die and return to dust.

Daniel 12:13 But as for you, go on your way until the end. You will rest, and will arise to your inheritance at the end of the days.”

Daniel's hope is in the resurrection, not to ascend to heaven.

Isaiah 38:18For Sheol [The Grave] cannot thank You; Death cannot praise You. Those who descend to the Pit [The Grave] cannot hope for Your faithfulness.

Job 19:25But I know that my Redeemer lives, and in the end He will stand upon the earth. 26Even after my skin has been destroyed, yet in my flesh I will see God.

The hope of Job is the resurrection to eternal life when Christ returns on the ''land'', not heaven.

See also Job 12:10 Job 33:4 & dozens and dozens more.