People before Christ from the Old Testament, are they saved?

Francis Drake

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People who died before the resurection, how will they be saved?
From Adam onwards, all who believed in God the creator are born again.
They are born of the Spirit because Jesus paid with his blood, even if they never heard the message of the cross.

If the OT saints were not born of the Spirit, by what power did they do such miracles, or write the scriptures?
 
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Francis Drake

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The Israelites get a free pass being the chosen people and all. We are grafted into their inheritance from my understanding.
From Adam onwards, whether Israel or the whole world, the only ones who obtained a free pass are those who were born of the Spirit of God.

Romans9v6But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, 7nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, “In Isaac your seed shall be called.” 8That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed. 9For this is the word of promise: “At this time I will come and Sarah shall have a son.”
 
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Gregory Thompson

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People who died before the resurection, how will they be saved?
Jesus went down to the place of the dead for three days and three nights.

During that time, He called out, and anyone who has eyes to see and ears to hear and also followed with Him, went with Him.

Psalm 115 and Psalm 135 discuss how those who worship idols become like them in the place of the dead, so they wouldn't have had eyes to see or ears to hear and would not have followed Jesus.

That being said, this matter has already been resolved in context of a "one chance only" theology. Being this is General Theology, that is the general consensus.
 
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bling

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Jesus went down to the place of the dead for three days and three nights.

During that time, He called out, and anyone who has eyes to see and ears to hear and also followed with Him, went with Him.

Psalm 115 and Psalm 135 discuss how those who worship idols become like them in the place of the dead, so they wouldn't have had eyes to see or ears to hear and would not have followed Jesus.

That being said, this matter has already been resolved in context of a "one chance only" theology. Being this is General Theology, that is the general consensus.
Your last sentence seems to contradict what you said earlier?
 
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BobRyan

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People who died before the resurection, how will they be saved?

In Matt 17 we see Moses and Elijah standing in glory with Christ. They were OT saved saints.

Gal 3:8 the Gospel was preached to Abraham
Gal 1:6-9 there has always been only one Gospel

Heb 10:4-6 the blood of animals was never the way that real forgiveness was given OT or NT - it was always based on the blood of Christ.

Romans 4 informs us that "God calls those things that are not as though they were"
17 (as it is written, “I have made you a father of many nations”) in the presence of Him whom he believed—God, who gives life to the dead and calls those things which do not exist as though they did

God says to Abraham "I HAVE made you" a father of many nations - when as yet - he was father to none.

In Ezek 28 God says he HAS destroyed Satan - the covering cherub that fell from heaven.
 
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BobRyan

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John 6:
63 " It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life. 64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him.

So we see Jesus explains the symbolism in John 6 - and John reminds us of it in John 1 "the WORD became FLESH and dwelt among us"



67 Then Jesus said to the twelve, “Do you also want to go away?”
68 But Simon Peter answered Him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life.

==================

Jesus was speaking of the Word of God that had to be taken into the soul to have life. He did not say "some day in the future you must eat my flesh" rather it was already true - they already must do it - not "don't do it now -- but consider doing it later".

Jesus "the bread that came down out of heaven" -- manna

Deut 8:2 And you shall remember that the Lord your God led you all the way these forty years in the wilderness, to humble you and test you, to know what was in your heart, whether you would keep His commandments or not. 3 So He humbled you, allowed you to hunger, and fed you with manna which you did not know nor did your fathers know, that He might make you know that man shall not live by bread alone; but man lives by every word that proceeds from the mouth of the Lord.
 
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Soyeong

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People who died before the resurection, how will they be saved?

Every example of saving faith listed in Hebrews 11 were all of people who lived before the resurrection. In Psalms 119:29-30, David wanted God to put false ways far from him, for God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey His law, and he chose the way of faithfulness, so this has always been the one and only way of salvation by grace through faith. In Genesis 6:8-9, he found grace in the eyes of God and was a righteous man, so he was declared righteous by grace through faith by the same means as everyone else.
 
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rhern

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Every example of saving faith listed in Hebrews 11 were all of people who lived before the resurrection. In Psalms 119:29-30, David wanted God to put false ways far from him, for God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey His law, and he chose the way of faithfulness, so this has always been the one and only way of salvation by grace through faith. In Genesis 6:8-9, he found grace in the eyes of God and was a righteous man, so he was declared righteous by grace through faith by the same means as everyone else.

how many have been saved outside of the perfect sacrifice?
If there is another way to be saved other than believing that
Jesus is the way the truth and the life, what is it.
The Word is creator of all things visible and invisible,
what can man do to be save himself
outside of believing in the only way to salvation is by the creator.
 
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Soyeong

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how many have been saved outside of the perfect sacrifice?
If there is another way to be saved other than believing that
Jesus is the way the truth and the life, what is it.
The Word is creator of all things visible and invisible,
what can man do to be save himself
outside of believing in the only way to salvation is by the creator.

People who lived before the resurrection had faith in the promised Redeemer in the same way we do. God's law is the way (Psalms 119:1-3), the truth (Psalms 119:142), and the life (Deuteronomy 32:47), and Jesus lived in sinless obedience to it, so he is the living embodiment of the way, the truth, and the life (John 14:6). In Matthew 23:23, Jesus said that faith is one of the weightier matters of the law, so our obedience to it has always been about putting our faith in him. Again, the one and only way that there has ever been to become saved is by grace through faith, so there has never been a means of saving ourselves.

In Titus 2:11-14, our salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, so God graciously teaching us to obey His laws for how to do that is itself part of the content of His gift of salvation, and participating in that training has nothing to do with trying to save ourselves. In Romans 1:5, we have received grace in order to bring about the obedience of faith. Our salvation is from sin (Matthew 1:21) and sin is the transgression of God's law (1 John 3:4), so being trained by grace to live in obedience to God's law through faith is the way to receive the gift of Jesus saving us from living in transgression of God's law, which is the same both before and after the cross.
 
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rhern

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People who lived before the resurrection had faith in the promised Redeemer in the same way we do. God's law is the way (Psalms 119:1-3), the truth (Psalms 119:142), and the life (Deuteronomy 32:47), and Jesus lived in sinless obedience to it, so he is the living embodiment of the way, the truth, and the life (John 14:6). In Matthew 23:23, Jesus said that faith is one of the weightier matters of the law, so our obedience to it has always been about putting our faith in him. Again, the one and only way that there has ever been to become saved is by grace through faith, so there has never been a means of saving ourselves.

In Titus 2:11-14, our salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, so God graciously teaching us to obey His laws for how to do that is itself part of the content of His gift of salvation, and participating in that training has nothing to do with trying to save ourselves. In Romans 1:5, we have received grace in order to bring about the obedience of faith. Our salvation is from sin (Matthew 1:21) and sin is the transgression of God's law (1 John 3:4), so being trained by grace to live in obedience to God's law through faith is the way to receive the gift of Jesus saving us from living in transgression of God's law, which is the same both before and after the cross.

The cross stumbling block for Jews
Did the believers in Jerusalem Church under James, son of Mary and Joseph, did they accept the cross for salvation or did they continue praising the Law of Moses?
Did the the Cross over shadow the Law of Moses. Can a Person be saved by the perfect sacrifice and still obey the Law of Moses?

1st Cor. 1:18For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
23But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;

Romans 5:10For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

Ephesians 2:16
14For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;

15Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

16And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

Acts 21:
18And the day following Paul went in with us unto James; and all the elders were present.

20And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law:

Galations:2
16Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

the Jews, Israel, who are worthy come to the Lord in the Kingdom will worship Him and be Justified. read Zechariah 14

Peter said," Lord we left everything for you, what is in it for us."
Jesus said," You and the 12 will rule over the 12 tribes of Israel."......... in the 1000 year reign
 
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chad kincham

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People who died before the resurection, how will they be saved?
Three things apply:

First, scripture says that for all years from Adams fall until the law of Moses, sin existed, but where there is no law, sin is not imputed.

All those people got a get -out -of -hell- free -card, they aren’t held guilty for their sins.

Second, after the law was given, animal sacrifices atoned for the sins of the Israelites, and their righteousness came from keeping all the laws statutes, laws, commands and ordinances - and yes scripture does say that.

Third, the gentiles who had not the law of Moses, were judged according to how they obeyed their conscience, which is Gods law written on their hearts, said Paul.

And today everyone who hears the gospel and rejects Jesus will be damned without exception, since Jesus is the only way to heaven and to be declared righteous by God through faith.
 
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chad kincham

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People who lived before the resurrection had faith in the promised Redeemer in the same way we do

Not so. Whereas the Old Testament definitely looked forward to the Messiah coming and their being a new covenant, the Israelites sacrificed animals for their atonement:

Lev 4:20 And he shall do with the bullock as he did with the bullock for a sin offering, so shall he do with this: and the priest shall make an atonement for them, and it shall be forgiven them.

Lev 4:26 And he shall burn all his fat upon the altar, as the fat of the sacrifice of peace offerings: and the priest shall make an atonement for him as concerning his sin, and it shall be forgiven him.

And their righteousness came from keeping all of the law of Moses:

Deu 6:24 And the LORD commanded us to do all these statutes, to fear the LORD our God, for our good always, that he might preserve us alive, as it is at this day.

Deu 6:25 And it shall be our righteousness, if we observe to do all these commandments before the LORD our God, as he hath commanded us.

There isn’t one drop of faith or grace in the old covenant law of Moses.

Scripture says the law held us captive until faith and grace came with the new covenant Jesus enacted.

Yes, Noah was saved by faith, and Abraham believed God for his justification, but both of them lived before the Mosaic covenant, which was solely about works of the law for righteousness, and not about having faith or getting any grace whatsoever.
 
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Gottservant

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People who died before the resurection, how will they be saved?

They are better than saved, they live again at the resurrection of the just - with the greatness of their Day given as credit to Christ.

We are saved, but we know the greatness of Jesus' Day, and are satisfied with it - not to take praise away, but in the way we do it together.
 
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Francis Drake

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People who lived before the resurrection had faith in the promised Redeemer in the same way we do.
The vast majority knew absolutely nothing of a future promised redeemer. They simply believed in God the creator as evidenced by all of creation, and by the conviction of the Holy Spirit..
 
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Soyeong

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The cross stumbling block for Jews
Did the believers in Jerusalem Church under James, son of Mary and Joseph, did they accept the cross for salvation or did they continue praising the Law of Moses?
Did the the Cross over shadow the Law of Moses. Can a Person be saved by the perfect sacrifice and still obey the Law of Moses?

1st Cor. 1:18For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
23But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;

Romans 5:10For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

In Romans 9:30-10:4, the Israelites failed to attain righteousness because they pursued God's law as through righteousness were by works in an effort to establish their own instead of pursuing it as through righteousness were faith in Christ, for Christ is the goal of the law for righteousness for everyone who has faith. In Romans 10:5-10, this faith references Deuteronomy 30:11-16 in regard to saying that the Mosaic Law is not too difficult to obey, that the one who obeys it will attain life by it, and in regard to what we are submitting to obey when we confess that Jesus is Lord.

So the stumbling block was not the Israelites they were doing what God commanded them to do, but that they did not understand the goal of the law. In Matthew 7:23, Jesus said that he would tell those who are lawlessness to depart from him because he never knew them, so again, knowing Christ is the goal of the Mosaic Law. In Philippians 3:8, Paul had been in the same boat where he had been keeping the law without having the goal of knowing Christ, so he had been missing the while goal of the law and counted it all as rubbish.

In Titus 2:14, Jesus gave himself to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so becoming zealous for doing good works in obedience to the Mosaic Law is they way to accept the cross for salvation (Acts 21:20). Again, our salvation is from sin and the Mosaic Law was how the Israelites knew what sin is, so the concept of being saved from living in transgression of the Mosaic Law can't be removed from our need to choose to live in obedience to it through faith.


All of God's righteous laws are eternal (Psalms 119:160) and Ephesians 2:14-16 is referring to a law that is not eternal, therefore it is not referring to any of God's laws. God did not make any mistakes when He gave His law, so He had no need to abolish any of His own eternal laws. God did not give any laws for the purpose of creating a dividing wall of hostility, but rather His law instructs us to love our neighbors as ourselves. In Matthew 4:17-23, Jesus began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand, and God's law is how his audience knew what sin is, so repenting from our disobedience to it is an integral part of the Gospel message, which means that interpreting Ephesians 2:14-16 as referring to God's law undermines both what Jesus accomplished through his ministry and through the cross. Furthermore, in Matthew 5:17-19, Jesus specifically said that he came not to abolish the law and warned against relaxing the least part of it, so interpreting Ephesians 2:14-16 as referring to God's law is calling Jesus a liar and disregarding his warning. In addition, in Romans 3:31, our faith does not abolish God's law, but rather our faith upholds it.


Indeed, they were rejoicing that tens of thousands of Jews were coming to faith who were all zealous for the law, so Jews coming to faith were not ceasing to obey it. Not all Jews were zealous for the law, such as secular Jews and Herodians, so it was because they were coming to faith that they were becoming zealous for doing good works in obedience to the Mosaic Law, which is the correct response to the resurrection (Titus 2:14).

Galations:2
16Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

the Jews, Israel, who are worthy come to the Lord in the Kingdom will worship Him and be Justified. read Zechariah 14

Peter said," Lord we left everything for you, what is in it for us."
Jesus said," You and the 12 will rule over the 12 tribes of Israel."......... in the 1000 year reign

We do not earn our justification as a wage by obeying the Mosaic Law because it was never given as a means of doing that, even through perfect obedience (Romans 4:4-5), but that doesn't mean that we aren't obligated to obey for the purposes for which it was given. Furthermore, the fact that we don't earn our justification by obeying the Mosaic Law makes it that much more true that we don't earn our justification by obeying man-made works of the law, which is what Paul was speaking against in Galatians 2:16. In Acts 10:28, Peter referring to a law that forbade Jews to visit or associate with Gentiles, which is not a law commanded by God anywhere in the Bible, so it is therefore a man-made law. It was this law that Peter was obeying in Galatians 2:11-16 when he stopped visiting or associating with the Gentiles, and by doing so he was giving credibility to those who were wanting to require Gentiles to obey their works of the law in order to become justified, which is why Paul rebuked him and reiterated that we are justified by faith, not by works of the law.
 
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Soyeong

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Not so. Whereas the Old Testament definitely looked forward to the Messiah coming and their being a new covenant, the Israelites sacrificed animals for their atonement:

Lev 4:20 And he shall do with the bullock as he did with the bullock for a sin offering, so shall he do with this: and the priest shall make an atonement for them, and it shall be forgiven them.

Lev 4:26 And he shall burn all his fat upon the altar, as the fat of the sacrifice of peace offerings: and the priest shall make an atonement for him as concerning his sin, and it shall be forgiven him.

And their righteousness came from keeping all of the law of Moses:

Deu 6:24 And the LORD commanded us to do all these statutes, to fear the LORD our God, for our good always, that he might preserve us alive, as it is at this day.

Deu 6:25 And it shall be our righteousness, if we observe to do all these commandments before the LORD our God, as he hath commanded us.

There isn’t one drop of faith or grace in the old covenant law of Moses.

Scripture says the law held us captive until faith and grace came with the new covenant Jesus enacted.

Yes, Noah was saved by faith, and Abraham believed God for his justification, but both of them lived before the Mosaic covenant, which was solely about works of the law for righteousness, and not about having faith or getting any grace whatsoever.

The blood of bulls and goats never took away sin, but rather they always pointed to Christ for the atonement of our sins. In Deuteronomy 6:20-25, obedience to the Mosaic Law is in regard to having faith in God to defeat Pharaoh, faith in God to bring them up out of the land of Egypt, faith in God to bring them to the land that He promised their fathers, faith in God that His laws are for our own good, and faith in God to preserve us. So it is by faith that we are careful to obey all that God has commanded us and by the same faith that we are declared righteous. In Habakkuk 2:4, the righteous shall live by faith, and in Isaiah 51:7, the righteous are those on whose heart is the Mosaic Law, so living by faith is not something foreign to the Mosaic Covenant, and living by faith has never referred to a manner of living that is not in obedience to God. In Matthew 23:23, Jesus said that faith is one of the weightier matters of the Mosaic Law. Again, in Psalms 119:29-30, it connects obedience to the Mosaic Law with grace and faith. In John 1:16-17, it says grace upon grace, so the grace of Christ was added upon the grace of the Mosaic Law. In Exodus 33:13, Moses wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him how to walk in His ways that he m ight know Him, and Israel too, and there are many verses that describe the Mosaic Law as being instructions for how to walk in God's ways, such as Deuteronomy 10:12-13, Isaiah 2:2-3, Joshua 22:5, Psalms 103:7.

Grace and faith have always been important aspects of God's nature throughout the entire Bible, not something that was new to the NT. In Romans 9:30-10:4, the Israelites had a zeal for God, but it was not based on knowledge, so they failed to attain righteousness because they pursued the law as through righteousness were by works in an effort to establish their own instead of pursuing the law as through righteousness were by faith in Christ, for Christ is the goal of the law for righteousness for everyone who has faith, so thinking that obedience to the Mosaic Law was ever about trying to establish our own righteousness is making the same fundamental misunderstanding of the goal of the law as the Israelites made.
 
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rhern

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The blood of bulls and goats never took away sin, but rather they always pointed to Christ for the atonement of our sins. In Deuteronomy 6:20-25, obedience to the Mosaic Law is in regard to having faith in God to defeat Pharaoh, faith in God to bring them up out of the land of Egypt, faith in God to bring them to the land that He promised their fathers, faith in God that His laws are for our own good, and faith in God to preserve us. So it is by faith that we are careful to obey all that God has commanded us and by the same faith that we are declared righteous. In Habakkuk 2:4, the righteous shall live by faith, and in Isaiah 51:7, the righteous are those on whose heart is the Mosaic Law, so living by faith is not something foreign to the Mosaic Covenant, and living by faith has never referred to a manner of living that is not in obedience to God. In Matthew 23:23, Jesus said that faith is one of the weightier matters of the Mosaic Law. Again, in Psalms 119:29-30, it connects obedience to the Mosaic Law with grace and faith. In John 1:16-17, it says grace upon grace, so the grace of Christ was added upon the grace of the Mosaic Law. In Exodus 33:13, Moses wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him how to walk in His ways that he m ight know Him, and Israel too, and there are many verses that describe the Mosaic Law as being instructions for how to walk in God's ways, such as Deuteronomy 10:12-13, Isaiah 2:2-3, Joshua 22:5, Psalms 103:7.

Grace and faith have always been important aspects of God's nature throughout the entire Bible, not something that was new to the NT. In Romans 9:30-10:4, the Israelites had a zeal for God, but it was not based on knowledge, so they failed to attain righteousness because they pursued the law as through righteousness were by works in an effort to establish their own instead of pursuing the law as through righteousness were by faith in Christ, for Christ is the goal of the law for righteousness for everyone who has faith, so thinking that obedience to the Mosaic Law was ever about trying to establish our own righteousness is making the same fundamental misunderstanding of the goal of the law as the Israelites made.

Very Good explanation. I have a new prospective to meditate on.

Question: What is the purpose of the Kingdom (1000 yr reign)? Who will be there?
Where do believing Jews and Chritains stand in reference to the Kingdom?
 
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rhern

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In Acts 10:28, Peter referring to a law that forbade Jews to visit or associate with Gentiles, which is not a law commanded by God anywhere in the Bible, so it is therefore a man-made law. It was this law that Peter was obeying in Galatians 2:11-16 when he stopped visiting or associating with the Gentiles, and by doing so he was giving credibility to those who were wanting to require Gentiles to obey their works of the law in order to become justified, which is why Paul rebuked him and reiterated that we are justified by faith, not by works of the law.

True this is not a Law But God Did command His people to not associate or mix with other races.
This was a command. Any command by God is as good as a Law. If they disobeyed there will be consequences. Jesus commanded His disciples not to go to the gentiles and the samaritans.
 
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chad kincham

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The blood of bulls and goats never took away sin, but rather they always pointed to Christ for the atonement of our sins. In Deuteronomy 6:20-25, obedience to the Mosaic Law is in regard to having faith in God to defeat Pharaoh, faith in God to bring them up out of the land of Egypt, faith in God to bring them to the land that He promised their fathers, faith in God that His laws are for our own good, and faith in God to preserve us. So it is by faith that we are careful to obey all that God has commanded us and by the same faith that we are declared righteous. In Habakkuk 2:4, the righteous shall live by faith, and in Isaiah 51:7, the righteous are those on whose heart is the Mosaic Law, so living by faith is not something foreign to the Mosaic Covenant, and living by faith has never referred to a manner of living that is not in obedience to God. In Matthew 23:23, Jesus said that faith is one of the weightier matters of the Mosaic Law. Again, in Psalms 119:29-30, it connects obedience to the Mosaic Law with grace and faith. In John 1:16-17, it says grace upon grace, so the grace of Christ was added upon the grace of the Mosaic Law. In Exodus 33:13, Moses wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him how to walk in His ways that he m ight know Him, and Israel too, and there are many verses that describe the Mosaic Law as being instructions for how to walk in God's ways, such as Deuteronomy 10:12-13, Isaiah 2:2-3, Joshua 22:5, Psalms 103:7.

Grace and faith have always been important aspects of God's nature throughout the entire Bible, not something that was new to the NT. In Romans 9:30-10:4, the Israelites had a zeal for God, but it was not based on knowledge, so they failed to attain righteousness because they pursued the law as through righteousness were by works in an effort to establish their own instead of pursuing the law as through righteousness were by faith in Christ, for Christ is the goal of the law for righteousness for everyone who has faith, so thinking that obedience to the Mosaic Law was ever about trying to establish our own righteousness is making the same fundamental misunderstanding of the goal of the law as the Israelites made.
What I said was exactly right.

I gave scripture. The law of Moses was 100% works based, no faith is found in it and no grace is found in it.

The Old Testament is full of types and shadows and prophecy of Christ, but they didn’t have to have a bit of faith in the old covenant, and scripture flat out says that.

The blood off animals may not be able to remove sins but only cover it, but as the Leviticus verse I cited stated, their atonement of their sins nevertheless came from animal sacrifices in that covenant, and the other verse said their righteousness came from keeping all the law.

Faith had no part of keeping the old covenant:

Gal 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

Gal 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

They also were given no grace at all in mosaic law, and grace came by Jesus:

Joh 1:17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.
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No grace, no faith, and it was deliberately burdensome and harsh, and a yoke of bondage.
 
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