Christian Universalism. What's not to like?

Cormack said:

We’ve all read the Bible, some of us read it annually or on some kind of schedule, so rather than lecture anyone on what the scriptures mean, I’d rather say I hope my understanding of the scripture could someday be more compatible with the beliefs you currently hold.

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Could you explain this a bit more please.

2PhiloVoid said:

... So, according to you, then, no one dead who later rises will have to face condemnation?

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Condemnation, in this case is not a sentence.
We all stand condemned already. (John 3:18)

Saint Steven said: ↑
John 5:25 NIV
Very truly I tell you, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live.

Hmm said:

... Hermeneutical dichotomies don't seem to have played a big part. ...

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LOL
That is so funny. (thanks)

Saint Steven said:

The same free will we have was applied to the Bible. Of course God would allow it. The same God that allowed Young to make his translation. (which you marginalized as not being "majority") If you really believe God is sovereign over the Bible, how did this happen? Same goes for the JW and SDA translations. Don't make an idol out of a book.

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Revelation 22

behold, I am coming quickly. Blessed is the one who keeps the words of the prophecy of this book.”

8 I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. And when I heard and saw them, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who showed me these things. 9 And he *said to me, “Do not do that; I am a fellow servant of yours and of your brothers the prophets, and of those who keep the words of this book. Worship God!”

The Final Message
10 And he *said to me, “Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near. 11 Let the one who does wrong still do wrong, and the one who is filthy still be filthy; and let the one who is righteous still practice righteousness, and the one who is holy still keep himself holy.”

12 “Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to reward each one as his work deserves. 13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.”

14 Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they will have the right to the tree of life, and may enter the city by the gates. 15 Outside are the dogs, the sorcerers, the sexually immoral persons, the murderers, the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices lying.

16 “I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you of these things for the churches. I am the root and the descendant of David, the bright morning star.”

17 The Spirit and the bride say, “Come.” And let the one who hears say, “Come.” And let the one who is thirsty come; let the one who desires, take the water of life without cost.

18 I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book; 19 and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his part from the tree of life and from the holy city, which are written in this book.

20 He who testifies to these things says, “Yes, I am coming quickly.” Amen. Come, Lord Jesus.

21 The grace of the Lord Jesus be with all. Amen.


We do not idolise the book but we respect it and allow it to hold us to account.

Hmm said:

... I've added an encouraging response from a fellow victim that shows how serious this trauma can be but which also offers a solution that worked for them. ...

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Great post, thanks!
Imagine someone like that being told that they will go to hell for believing in Universalism.

Carl Emerson said:

We do not idolise the book but we respect it and allow it to hold us to account.

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I would hope so, but I'm not convinced y'all do.
Hopefully you know that Revelations 22:18 is in reference to the book of Revelations only? (not the whole bible) As evidenced in the verse itself.

Saint Steven said:

Condemnation, in this case is not a sentence.
We all stand condemned already. (John 3:18)

Saint Steven said: ↑
John 5:25 NIV
Very truly I tell you, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live.

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My apologies, Steven, but I guess I'm not understanding your point here when you say, "Condemnation is not a sentence."

Saint Steven said:

Great post, thanks!
Imagine someone like that being told that they will go to hell for believing in Universalism.

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I could be wrong, but it seems to me that you guys (@Hmm, @Cormack, @MMXX) feel that you're kind of being victimized here in this thread when folks don't agree with you. Am I perceiving this anywhere near correctly, or is there something else you feel we're missing that you want us to understand?

Carl Emerson said:

Could you explain this a bit more please.

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Yeah, I did think that was clumsily worded on my part. I’ve got a loose policy on not editing and rewriting my messages so I thought best leave it be.

That quote was meaning to say I hope there’s some kind of halfway house that could bridge the divide and lead you nearer to what I and others have called “hopeful universalism.” Not necessarily the belief in it but the genuine and sustained hope of it.

A middle point between your traditionalist point of view and my universalistic perspective. I believe when people are really in that place, or when they have the universalist heart state, these conversations are much more generous (even while disagreeing.)

Posters online have a lot of “learning,” and that might be the problem, there’s the sunk cost fallacy or the point of no return. I suspect for many they’ve spent so long learning things and coming to their beliefs that to change now would be too deep an injury to their pride.

They “know” too much, so to allow for the universalist heart state would be too much like giving up ground.

I suspect there’s often an untouched middle ground for more traditional believers like yourself where they could allow themselves the joy of the universal heart state, the same kind of heart state God seems to display in many sections of the Bible.

At least in the genuine and sustained hope for universal reconciliation, if that were part of our shared prayer life, there would be a very different tenor to this sometimes disparate community. Maybe something not so puffed up and off putting to ourselves and the rest of the world.

Cormack said:

Yeah, I did think that was clumsily worded on my part. I’ve got a loose policy on not editing and rewriting my messages so I thought best leave it be.

That quote was meaning to say I hope there’s some kind of halfway house that could bridge the divide and lead you nearer to what I and others have called “hopeful universalism.” Not necessarily the belief in it but the genuine and sustained hope of it.

A middle point between your traditionalist point of view and my universalistic perspective. I believe when people are really in that place, or when they have the universalist heart state, these conversations are much more generous (even while disagreeing.)

Posters online have a lot of “learning,” and that might be the problem, there’s the sunk cost fallacy or the point of no return. I suspect for many they’ve spent so long learning things and coming to their beliefs that to change now would be too deep an injury to their pride.

They “know” too much, so to allow for the universalist heart state would be too much like giving up ground.

I suspect there’s often an untouched middle ground for more traditional believers like yourself where they could allow themselves the joy of the universal heart state, the same kind of heart state God seems to display in many sections of the Bible.

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Thanks for that...

This is the first time I have dialogued about this issue and tend to see it as an emotional appeal rather than good exegesis. The OP's title certainly conveys this. (Why not believe this? It feels better.)

Leaving the 99 and going out after the one was a restoration of a member of the flock not changing a wolf into a lamb.

Carl Emerson said:

Leaving the 99 and going out after the one was a restoration of a member of the flock not changing a wolf into a lamb.

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Let’s say hypothetically that God had 99 wolves, wouldn’t it be more Christlike to want the 99 wolves to be restored and made right, rather than wanting to leave them to their own devices.

“Forgive them Father, they know not what they do.” I’m sure some of those same wicked people at the foot of the cross were still alive when Paul wished that he himself might be accursed on their behalf, him being cursed so that his people could live.

Carl Emerson said:

This is the first time I have dialogued about this issue and tend to see it as an emotional appeal rather than good exegesis.

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I think if this has sparked any interest, it would be a good idea to seek out the most compelling exegetes in favour of universalism. There is a lot of emotionalism out there and lots of condemnation of your views, but, at least when I held strongly to very similar views, I owed it to myself to face the very best that universalism had to offer.

Cormack said:

Let’s say hypothetically that God had 99 wolves, wouldn’t it be more Christlike to want the 99 wolves to be restored and made right, rather than wanting to leave them to their own devices.

“Forgive them Father, they know not what they do.” I’m sure some of those same wicked people at the foot of the cross were still alive when Paul wished that he himself might be accursed on their behalf, him being cursed so that his people could live.

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Paul was likely one of them...

Clearly they did not all repent.

Looking at this passage the wolves were created to be wolves...

Rom 9:

does the potter not have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one object for honorable use, and another for common use? 22 What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with great patience objects of wrath prepared for destruction? 23 And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon objects of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, 24 namely us, whom He also called, not only from among Jews, but also from among Gentiles

Saint Steven said:

I would hope so, but I'm not convinced y'all do.
Hopefully you know that Revelations 22:18 is in reference to the book of Revelations only? (not the whole bible) As evidenced in the verse itself.

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So you don't think God has cared enough to similarly watch over His Word and make sure we have what He intended ???

Andrewn said:

It is true that evaluating the meaning of the English word "eternal" doesn't shed light on the meaning of "aionios." I only introduced an analysis of "eternal" in an attempt to absolve Bible translators of error and hopefully to guide those who exclusively rely on English translations and have no access or no aptitude for Greek terms.

In a previous post, I mentioned that "aionios" refers to "quality" rather than quantity / duration. I'm not sure if this is the same thing you mean by "the word marks time based upon content rather than duration." If so, then we're in agreement.


Life and perdition are indeed presented in parallel. Both have the "quality" of belonging to the Age to Come. The pericope of the sheep and goats does not tell us about the "duration" of either. We conclude that Life of the Age to Come is endless from passages such as Luk 20:36.

But we do not know the duration of damnation of the age to come. It is conceivably different from one person to another. The earth is estimated to be 4.54 billion years old and I have no way of knowing what will happen in eternity.

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Yes, it appears we are essentially in agreement about what "aionios" entails as quality/content are stating similar concepts. While it may be possible to introduce asymmetry between the age of perdition and the age of life, I'm not sure there's warrant for that move. Each is descriptive of a single age to come that is presented as being a terminal state, with the qualitative differences coming from whether one belongs to the category of sheep or goats. As the fire of God is a purifying fire, the sheep will be purified into the purest example of a sheep while the goats can be assumed to be purified into the purest example of a goat. And as the age of life is exclusive to the sheep, purified goats are excluded as they remain goats.

2PhiloVoid said:

My apologies, Steven, but I guess I'm not understanding your point here when you say, "Condemnation is not a sentence."

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We are all UNDER the condemnation of sin.
So, the condemnation is universal in that sense rather than individual.
From that perspective, what does it mean to face condemnation?

Those of us who have already turned to Christ have come out from under that condemnation. That is, the universal condemnation that all of humankind is under. But we will still be evaluated for our works, whether they were done in the Spirit, or in the flesh. (wood, hay, stubble) As Jesus said, "Everyone will be salted with fire." - Mark 9:49

Those who have not turned to Christ are still under that universal condemnation. They will need to undergo a similar, but much more comprehensive evaluation to be informed, corrected and restored as we were. As I understand it. So, they will need to face their "condemnation", but it is not a sentence. Does that make sense?

Carl Emerson said:

You have chosen a non-mainstream translation that suits your theory.

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It's actually worse than that, as "age-during" is a fair translation though there is no implication that it comes to an end. Simply that for however long that age lasts, its primary characterization for the given group will be either punishment or life. If the age in which the righteous lasts forever, the most reasonable conclusion is that the age presented in parallel is symmetrical in duration and also lasts forever.

2PhiloVoid said:

I could be wrong, but it seems to me that you guys (@Hmm, @Cormack, @MMXX) feel that you're kind of being victimized here in this thread when folks don't agree with you. Am I perceiving this anywhere near correctly, or is there something else you feel we're missing that you want us to understand?

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I should let the others speak for themselves. But...
My comment was more general. Not specific to this thread, or the posters here. This has actually been a good discussion from my perspective.

Topics like the one linked below are the issue. I couldn't find the topic I was looking for, but this one below is of the sort.

People who believe in and promote Universalism Anathematize themselves

Cormack said:

At least in the genuine and sustained hope for universal reconciliation, if that were part of our shared prayer life, there would be a very different tenor to this sometimes disparate community. Maybe something not so puffed up and off putting to ourselves and the rest of the world.

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1 timothy 2:1-4 NIV
I urge, then, first of all, that petitions, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for all people— 2 for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. 3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.

Carl Emerson said:

So you don't think God has cared enough to similarly watch over His Word and make sure we have what He intended ???

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No, I'm not saying that.
But it certainly doesn't fit the category you have invented for it.