Christian Universalism. What's not to like?

Andrewn · Oct 23, 2021

Saint Steven said:
The Apostle Paul set that bar, I believe, when he informed us that he was the chief of sinners. Since Jesus went after him, who would he NOT go after? Jesus is the good shepherd that leaves the ninety-nine to go after the one. And there is rejoicing in heaven when he returns with them. (carries them back)

I edited out the part you referenced from my previous message

.

"Origen and Gregory of Nyssa say that sinners bear the image of God, which sin can obfuscate and cover, but never cancel."

Quotation is from ILE Ramelli

Andrewn · Oct 23, 2021

Cormack said:
Paul holds out hope for Israel in Romans despite their own hearts being judicially hardened during Christ’s ministry.

This fact, in itself, may be taken as proof that Israelites who have already passed away will be saved in eternity. Otherwise, what is the point in saying that some future Israelites will be saved?

Cormack · Oct 23, 2021

Andrewn said:
This fact, in itself, may be taken as proof that Israelites who have already passed away will be saved in eternity. Otherwise, what is the point in saying that some future Israelites will be saved?

Absolutely. From Romans 11:

I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in, and in this way all Israel will be saved . . .

. . . Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God’s mercy to you. For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

2PhiloVoid · Oct 23, 2021

Cormack said:
You should be informed by the message, not afraid. The fact is that leaning on disfunction in an effort to undermine the healthy faculties of most people is a bad take.

I'm already informed on many fronts. But thanks for the concern.

On your part, you might want to be informed that I'm not "leaning on dystfutcnyon in an effort to undermine the healthy faculties of most people." Far from it. I've never said that I am, and I'd appreciate it if you would avoid any further insinuation that I've done so through this or that distortion of my statements.

If it’s a bad take you should try and adopt a better one when someone much more savvy and academically astute than yourself comes along with a better one (i.e. Alvin P.)

Y'know, I wonder: is Alvin P. an advocate of UR? [ ... this is meant to be a rhetorical question, of course, and being that I've read my share of Alvin P. over the years, I'm already entertaining an answer. But, if you're an advocate of Common Sense Realism, or some other similar philosophical epistemic position, I understand what you're getting at ...]

Just one more point: If I were you, I'd probably not put all of my theological eggs in a Plantinga shaped basket ...

Obviously I’m not going to read the entire bulk of your message history or the convos history for the sake of extracting what you believe are valuable “nuances,” since most of the points you’ve made (in my experience) are of a similar quality to the view I just corrected.

You’re very flappable, sir.

... I thus stand ... " "corrected." " ... whatever that means.

Well the achoo being paradoxical can mean either one of two things, depending on if you’re using a philosophically literate use of the word paradox. Paradoxes are either (1) apparent contradictions that turn out to be true when investigated, or they’re (2) “mysteries” and an occasion for the Christians to throw themselves into greater depths of double speak.

...

eleos1954 · Oct 23, 2021

Andrewn said:
I really do not disagree with you. All I'm saying is that love has power, like a tug that morally (not forcibly) drags people to change their attitude.

Are you familiar with Abelard's Moral Influence Theory of Atonement? The cross does not only show humans the true nature of God's love, it also has power that is sufficient to pull us in and atone.

I've already explained and analyzed the Greek words applied. Love has power, this is all I'm trying to say.

Revelation 3:20

New Living Translation
“Look! I stand at the door and knock. If you hear my voice and open the door, I will come in, and we will share a meal together as friends.

Der Alte · Oct 23, 2021

Cormack said:
Absolutely. From Romans 11:

I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in, and in this way all Israel will be saved . . .
. . . Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God’s mercy to you. For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

Not disagreeing but "may have mercy" in Greek is a subjunctive. Which is the Greek case of possibility and potentiality. God having mercy is not a done deal but depends on Israel's repentance.

Der Alte · Oct 23, 2021

Andrewn said:
I edited out the part you referenced from my previous message .
"Origen and Gregory of Nyssa say that sinners bear the image of God, which sin can obfuscate and cover, but never cancel."
Quotation is from ILE Ramelli

The proponents of UR often quote/cite Ramelli as if she was the be all, end all authority on UR. I refer to her as the high priestess of UR.
Here she makes a mistake that a professor/scholar should never make. Logical fallacy, appeal to authority. Stating this as if the reader should immediately accept it without question, implying that Gregory and Origen are authorities.
When one cites ancient sources such as these it is customary to name the document quoted and give the chapter, section, paragraph or other identifying information.

Cormack · Oct 23, 2021

The mercy is as much a done deal as those “. . . bound over to disobedience . . .” So, however sure we are about the number and certainty of those “bound over,” we should have that same confidence with the number and certainty of the group of mercy.

Notice the authors parallelism in the quote. I’m sure you know what parallelisms are and can appreciate my being informed by one here.

God has “bound everyone over to disobedience,” those are the initial words and how we are to best interpret the next words, that’s especially true since the next words are an effort at paralleling the first words.

“everyone” is bound over to disobedience (for certain,) so that God may now “have mercy on them all.”

Der Alte said:
Not disagreeing but "may have mercy" in Greek is a subjunctive. Which is the Greek case. . .

Well since I don’t know ancient forms of Greek I can’t converse on subjunctives with you, if that’s enough to convince you and you’re proficient in Greek then that’s wonderful.

Hmm · Oct 23, 2021

2PhiloVoid said:
I'm already informed on many fronts.

Self-praise is no praise my friend.

Saint Steven · Oct 23, 2021

eleos1954 said:
Revelation 3:20

New Living Translation
“Look! I stand at the door and knock. If you hear my voice and open the door, I will come in, and we will share a meal together as friends.

John 5:25 NIV
Very truly I tell you, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live.

Saint Steven · Oct 23, 2021

Hmm said:
Self-praise is no praise my friend.

A person can get chapped lips from kissing the mirror. Just sayin'...

2PhiloVoid · Oct 23, 2021

Hmm said:
Self-praise is no praise my friend.

Self-praise? When did I do so ... ?

2PhiloVoid · Oct 23, 2021

Saint Steven said:
John 5:25 NIV
Very truly I tell you, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live.

... So, according to you, then, no one dead who later rises will have to face condemnation?

2PhiloVoid · Oct 23, 2021

Saint Steven said:
A person can get chapped lips from kissing the mirror. Just sayin'...

Not funny, Steven.

Der Alte · Oct 23, 2021

Cormack said:
The mercy is as much a done deal as those “. . . bound over to disobedience . . .” So, however sure we are about the number and certainty of those “bound over,” we should have that same confidence with the number and certainty of the group of mercy.

If Paul had intended to say it was a done deal he would not have used the subjunctive

Notice the authors parallelism in the quote. I’m sure you know what parallelisms are and can appreciate my being informed by one here.
God has “bound everyone over to disobedience,” those are the initial words and how we are to best interpret the next words, that’s especially true since the next words are an effort at paralleling the first words.
“everyone” is bound over to disobedience (for certain,) so that God may now “have mercy on them all.”

Unfortunately your imagined "parallelism" does not negate the full context of the passage.

Romans 11:5
5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

A remnant NOT all Israel only those who repent. vs. 23

Romans 11:14
14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.

Paul might save some of his Jewish brothers. Not 100%. Paul didn't think salvation was a done deal

Romans 11:20-23
20 Well; because of unbelief they [Jews] were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

Why do gentiles have to fear, if salvation is a done deal?

21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

Gentiles have to fear that God might not spare them as He did not spare the Jews.

22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them [Jews] which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

If the gentiles do not continue in God's goodness they shall be cut off just as the Jews were.

Romans 11:23
23 And they [Jews] also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.

Salvation of the Jews is not a done deal, they must not remain in unbelief.

Well since I don’t know ancient forms of Greek I can’t converse on subjunctives with you, if that’s enough to convince you and you’re proficient in Greek then that’s wonderful.

That you might be informed.
https://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/NTpdf/rom11.pdf

Hmm · Oct 23, 2021

I read this sad but salutory cry for help from someone suffering from, to give it a name, ECT trauma. I thought I'd post it here to show exactly why people turn to Christian universalism. Hermeneutical dichotomies don't seem to have played a big part. I've added an encouraging response from a fellow victim that shows how serious this trauma can be but which also offers a solution that worked for them. Christian universalism can be a very real help to very real people.

Statement:
"I think many universalists are recovering infernalists. This is where many of us began our journey.
I now see that infernalism is deeply irrational and deeply immoral, and not necessarilly biblical. It's not worthy of belief.
HOWEVER, I can't fully extricate myself from this poisinous doctrine which still haunts me sometimes - although less so now.
Any tips for living with the fear of the possibility of an eternal hell?
Obviously, not believing it at all would be the best option but assuming you can't fully eradicate this belief, how do you live with the fear, or manage it?
EDIT: I just want to thank everyone for their very helpful replies. They have definitely helped. If I don't have time to respond, you can still be quite sure I have read your comment and appreciate it."

Example response:
"Finding a good therapist to work through all my thoughts and fears on this was crucial for me. I used to have panic attacks frequently for a few months when I was first realizing how horrible believing in an eternal hell was. Therapy, lots of processing, time and as others have said, shifting focus really helped me. I used to go down rabbitholes for hours on the topic even when I was feeling pretty convinced infernalism wasn't true. That kept the whole issue debilitating for a while. Try to force yourself to do or think about something else when you realize you are unproductively obsessing if that's an issue for you. I don't believe it anymore but I do still have pangs of anxiety and "what-ifs." But they are less intense and less frequent, so I think that makes them manageable."

Der Alte · Oct 23, 2021

Hmm said:
I read this sad but salutory cry for help from someone suffering from, to give it a name, ECT trauma. I thought I'd post it here to show exactly why people turn to Christian universalism. Hermeneutical dichotomies don't seem to have played a big part. I've added an encouraging response from a fellow victim that shows how serious this trauma can be but which also offers a solution that worked for them. Christian universalism can be a very real help to very real people.
Statement:
"I think many universalists are recovering infernalists. This is where many of us began our journey.
I now see that infernalism is deeply irrational and deeply immoral, and not necessarilly biblical. It's not worthy of belief.
HOWEVER, I can't fully extricate myself from this poisinous doctrine which still haunts me sometimes - although less so now.
Any tips for living with the fear of the possibility of an eternal hell?
Obviously, not believing it at all would be the best option but assuming you can't fully eradicate this belief, how do you live with the fear, or manage it?
EDIT: I just want to thank everyone for their very helpful replies. They have definitely helped. If I don't have time to respond, you can still be quite sure I have read your comment and appreciate it."
Example response:
"Finding a good therapist to work through all my thoughts and fears on this was crucial for me. I used to have panic attacks frequently for a few months when I was first realizing how horrible believing in an eternal hell was. Therapy, lots of processing, time and as others have said, shifting focus really helped me. I used to go down rabbitholes for hours on the topic even when I was feeling pretty convinced infernalism wasn't true. That kept the whole issue debilitating for a while. Try to force yourself to do or think about something else when you realize you are unproductively obsessing if that's an issue for you. I don't believe it anymore but I do still have pangs of anxiety and "what-ifs." But they are less intense and less frequent, so I think that makes them manageable."

Anti-Christian garbage!

Hmm · Oct 23, 2021

Der Alte said:
Anti-Christian garbage!

It's great to get a true Christian response, thanks!

Carl Emerson · Oct 23, 2021

Andrewn said:
This is exactly the problem. You believe that only your interpretation is inspired by God.

Wrong...

I believe that Romans 14 teaches that we should be confident in what we believe as the one who is swayed by winds of doctrine is less able to be corrected.

In my case He has kept me from sharing at all for 40 years. My mum used to say - 'it takes a steady hand to carry a full cup' - these days we churn out instant 'teachers' peddling second hand information.

Actually I am not an end times expert at all, but simply put out there what I feel comfortable with taking the whole of scripture into account. It is offered in humility.

God has not left us alone to work things out for ourselves, revelation should be a basic building block in our formation. But those who teach a denominational theology cant afford to tolerate anyone claiming to have been given any other understanding.

We need strong voices especially in these uncertain times.

Carl Emerson · Oct 23, 2021

Andrewn said:
↑
Mmmm... God being 'slandered' by His own Word ???

No, He is being 'slandered' by your interpretation.

I note your personal attack - sad that you cant tolerate other opinions.

↑
Are you making a case for Eternal Life coming to an end?

No, Jesus said, “They are no longer subject to death, for they are like angels; and they are the children of God because they are children of the resurrection” (Luk 20:36).

Please explain how this verse relates to the notion of eternal life ending...

↑
Matthew 25:46 New American Standard Bible 46 These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
The meaning of “eternal” has been explained to you.

No... the meaning is being debated and at this stage the offering of Der Alte on this subject rings more true to me.
↑
Why is Hell being portrayed as a place where God administers punishment rather than simply man suffering the consequences of refusing Love and therefore choosing a loveless destiny along with like minded loveless individuals. This in itself is a place of torment yet not of God' doing. In this case the suggestion of Hell being contrary to the concept of a Loving God collapses. The suffering then is eternally self chosen and self afflicted.
Click to expand...

People may indeed choose a loveless destiny, until they understand God’s love.

If the wicked were repentant and restored from a loveless eternity the scripture would say so.

Could it be that the scape goat symbolises the plight of the wicked being driven out never to return?

↑
Romans 9 14 What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? Far from it! 15 For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whomever I have mercy, and I will show compassion to whomever I show compassion.” 16 So then, it does not depend on the person who wants it nor the one who runs, but on God who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very reason I raised you up, in order to demonstrate My power in you, and that My name might be proclaimed throughout the earth.” 18 So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.
Click to expand...

Why ask for an interpretation when you have no respect for commentaries and books?

Why not acknowledge that the scripture clearly states that God Himself hardens the hearts of the wicked.

Christian Universalism. What's not to like?

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This is me about 1 yr. old.

“I bet you're a real hulk on the internet...”

Hey, I'm just this guy, you know

You can call me Steve

You can call me Steve

Get my point, Shelob??

Get my point, Shelob??

Get my point, Shelob??

This is me about 1 yr. old.

Hey, I'm just this guy, you know

This is me about 1 yr. old.

Hey, I'm just this guy, you know

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