Many questions

James_Lai · Oct 23, 2021

honestal said:
Hi James, nice to meet you (I'm Tammy's husband),

I'm sure I don't have all the answers, but I think I have at least two--that can be an aid to you in your search.

#1--Jeremiah tells us: "Ye shall seek me, and find me, WHEN YE SHALL SEARCH FROM ME WITH ALL YOUR HEART." {Jeremiah 29:13}

I think that's one of the most important verses in all the Bible.

Going along with that, Jesus said: "ANYONE WHO CHOOSE TO DO WHAT GOD WANTS HIM TO DO will find out whether my teaching comes from God or from me." {John 7:17 NIrV}

Whatever in the Bible you see to be true and right--do it.
As you walk in the light things will grow clearer.

As for personal experience: All I'll say now is that true Bible religion has made me a MUCH better man--for which I am eternally grateful, and wouldn't trade for anything in the world.

God bless you, we'll be praying for you, and hopefully this will be the beginning of a long and profitable friendship.

Hello. Thank you for praying for me, I appreciate your care.

I know those two verses and others that require a fervent a most sincere search of Him and His truth. Well, I strived for a long time, and deeply and honestly. The ideas from the Bible have taught me me to think about moral things, not only about survival. I used to be very different. But anyway, when I pray or call to God or seek Him or fast, there is no answer. Life doesn’t change. Circumstances don’t change. People around don’t change. There is no effect. God, if He’s there, is silent. I only see natural laws working and inquisitive, creative and industrious human mind. God seems to be hiding somewhere…

The Narrow Way · Oct 23, 2021

James_Lai said:
Yes. Though here are claims they sometimes occur, but when closely examined, they don’t seem to be miracles. Also prayer, which is also a kind of miracle to me. Or God’s voice speaking to a person. Etc. Anything that would show that God is a reality.

Well, I believe God does do miracles today, just as He did in Bible times, but because of a lack of faith on our part, miracles are not as common. I also believe that Satan can perform miracles as counterfeits....and because of that, it's DANGEROUS to base our belief in God and the Bible on whether or not miracles happen TODAY.

That being said though, I can share a true miracle that happened to me. My husband and I have been married 40 years. When we got married, I had extremely painful periods....so much so that I would pass out, have to pull off the road when the pain would start if I was driving...it was excruciating...and continued month after month to get worse and worse. At that time (now I'm an Herbalist and know alot more than I knew then) I didn't know much about natural remedies but I hated drugs. But, the pain was so bad, I finally gave in to taking the drugs for one month....and then decided I just couldn't take them any longer and would just go to bed when the pain would start.

Well, this one particular Friday evening, the pain started. I told my husband I was going to bed, and I did. Shortly after that, he came in, and said that he believed that God wanted to heal me. He had just been reading the Bible story when Jesus healed the Noblemans son. I told him I didn't think I had enough faith to be healed. But he said he was confident it was God's will and he kneeled down and prayed for me. Remember, the pain had already started. While he was praying, the pain went away, 100%. And NEVER did it EVER come back in the LEAST DEGREE. That was a miracle just as much as the miracles in the Bible.

And there are other things I could share with you too....

Mark Quayle · Oct 23, 2021

James_Lai said:
Thank you. Claims about the Bible, not only about its source, also that it’s truth, and complete truth, inerrant, perfectly explains itself, has a story about Jesus from Genesis to Revelation, has answer to any question, same unchanging doctrines throughout its pages, that all other religious writings are not inspired or are mistaken etc. I know not all churches believe everything of the the above, but whatever the understanding is.

My impression as of today, and I do not want in any way to reduce the depth, value and complexity of the Bible, is that I do not see how the Bible really can be what Christians say it is…

So what do Christians say it is?

James_Lai · Oct 23, 2021

Mark Quayle said:
Sadly, or maybe disappointingly, (but it is for good), God doesn't normally work that way, and at present, he doesn't seem to want to be proven to society-in-general any more than he currently proves himself to them. T To be convinced of the fact of his existence, for example, is not faith. It is only the winning of an argument, useful in its place, of course, but not the cause of faith.

Okay. If so, then many passages of the Bible, and the resulting church doctrines are obsolete. If God withdrew Himself from the world in this age, as compared to the past, then we need a revised Bible or a new Christianity that does take this update into account. Otherwise we can’t continue to think and act as if God is still active

James_Lai · Oct 23, 2021

Mark Quayle said:
So what do Christians say it is?

The doctrines about the Bible that I listed. But as I mentioned, different denominations have different views

James_Lai · Oct 23, 2021

The Narrow Way said:
Well, I believe God does do miracles today, just as He did in Bible times, but because of a lack of faith on our part, miracles are not as common. I also believe that Satan can perform miracles as counterfeits....and because of that, it's DANGEROUS to base our belief in God and the Bible on whether or not miracles happen TODAY.

That being said though, I can share a true miracle that happened to me. My husband and I have been married 40 years. When we got married, I had extremely painful periods....so much so that I would pass out, have to pull off the road when the pain would start if I was driving...it was excruciating...and continued month after month to get worse and worse. At that time (now I'm an Herbalist and know alot more than I knew then) I didn't know much about natural remedies but I hated drugs. But, the pain was so bad, I finally gave in to taking the drugs for one month....and then decided I just couldn't take them any longer and would just go to bed when the pain would start.

Well, this one particular Friday evening, the pain started. I told my husband I was going to bed, and I did. Shortly after that, he came in, and said that he believed that God wanted to heal me. He had just been reading the Bible story when Jesus healed the Noblemans son. I told him I didn't think I had enough faith to be healed. But he said he was confident it was God's will and he kneeled down and prayed for me. Remember, the pain had already started. While he was praying, the pain went away, 100%. And NEVER did it EVER come back in the LEAST DEGREE. That was a miracle just as much as the miracles in the Bible.

And there are other things I could share with you too....

Thank you for telling me about the pain healed by prayer. I absolutely do believe prayer helped, but in this and similar cases I don’t see God working there. Before learning about religions, in books I read about the power of the mind. For example, the famous placebo. Or the communist heroes in their zeal for the party in the Chinese civil war, who could march and fight for days without much sustenance only because they could not fail chairman Mao’s inspiring calling. Or auto-suggestion by audio tapes for our Chinese olympic athletes, where without doping stimulants just listening to patriotic chants and songs day and night they could greatly improve their athletic performance.

The Narrow Way · Oct 23, 2021

James_Lai said:
Thank you for telling me about the pain healed by prayer. I absolutely do believe prayer helped, but in this and similar cases I don’t see God working there. Before learning about religions, in books they write about the power of the mind. For example, the famous placebo. Or the communist heroes in their zeal for the party in the Chinese civil war, who could march and fight for days without much sustenance only because they could not fail chairman Mao’s inspiring calling. Or auto-suggestion by audio tapes for our Chinese olympic athletes, where without doping stimulants just listening to patriotic chants and songs day and night they could greatly improve their athletic performance.

But you see, I didn't have the faith....my husband had the faith for me. God blessed and honored his faith, and healed my body. It was not mind over body because my mind was not believing.

James_Lai · Oct 23, 2021

Mark Quayle said:
To me, the fact of very existence is such a thing, though any atheist would disagree, claiming confirmation bias on the part of the believer, and claiming the logical fact that the fact we can't presently prove other possibilities doesn't mean there aren't any. To my mind, the cosmological argument (not the various cosmological 'proofs') is foolproof, unless someone can demonstrate that cause and effect is not pervasive, all the way down to a necessary uncaused first cause.

I understand. Well, cosmology and life can be used to prove the opposite idea: there is no God because we don’t need Him to explain the origin and functioning of the observable Universe

The Narrow Way · Oct 23, 2021

James, there is so much evidence out there, everywhere I look, that God is REAL and that He loves us... Are you 100% sure that you do not WANT to be convinced that God is real, because if you are convinced, then it would entail making changes in your life? I believe there are alot of people like that. I hope that isn't your case.

James_Lai · Oct 23, 2021

The Narrow Way said:
But you see, I didn't have the faith....my husband had the faith for me. God blessed and honored his faith, and healed my body. It was not mind over body because my mind was not believing.

You place God as the agent, but in the communist books on the same subject they say our mind is quite powerful, with strong faith in the ideals of a new society similar miracles are achieved. What I’m trying to say, healing of pain, however life-changing it is, is not a conclusive proof of God for me. You say you didn’t believe, but you believed in God and possibility of a healing? Or were you an atheist? Besides our conscious there is the unconscious, like they do anaesthesia experiment under hypnosis.

Andrewn · Oct 23, 2021

James_Lai said:
Claims about the Bible, not only about its source, also that it’s truth, and complete truth, inerrant, perfectly explains itself, has a story about Jesus from Genesis to Revelation, has answer to any question, same unchanging doctrines throughout its pages, that all other religious writings are not inspired or are mistaken etc. . . . I do not see how the Bible really can be what Christians say it is…

I would be disappointed also if I believed all these claims.

James_Lai said:
Why I asked what is God or who is God, is because it seems in reality if He exists then He’s more like an energy, not a person. I don’t hear His voice and no matter how long or how much I try and initiate communication with Him at my end, it always remains one way transmit only, not a bi-directional duplex communication… Nothing at my receive end… And not for the lack of trying either

God does not communicate with an audible voices. Those would be hallucinations. But his presence is felt in “Inner tranquility,” “mental quietude,” “concentration,” “pure prayer,” and “guarding of the heart.” The saints tell us that through these practices we can become open to God and actually listen to Him.

There must be a reason for your interest in knowing God. You've spent tremendous effort and time and God will reward this faithfulness.

James_Lai · Oct 23, 2021

The Narrow Way said:
James, there is so much evidence out there, everywhere I look, that God is REAL and that He loves us... Are you 100% sure that you do not WANT to be convinced that God is real, because if you are convinced, then it would entail making changes in your life? I believe there are alot of people like that. I hope that isn't your case.

What is this evidence? Could you give examples that are most important to you?

About myself, I don’t know. I try hard to listen, to see and to think.

James_Lai · Oct 23, 2021

Andrewn said:
I would be disappointed also if I believed these claims.

God does not communicate with an audible voices. Those would be hallucinations. But his presence is felt in “Inner tranquility,” “mental quietude,” “concentration,” “pure prayer,” and “guarding of the heart.” The saints tell us that through these practices we can become open to God and actually listen to Him.

There must be a reason for your interest in knowing God. You've spent tremendous effort and time and God will reward this faithfulness.

But those are standard Christian teachings about the Bible. What is your view?

I don’t mean audible voice, though why not? Or are we setting the limits for His operation only within the natural laws? Then He’s equal to nature. I mean, any form of communication, including telepathically as you described. I never received any form of communication. I even tried to fast and pray for the whole night standing on my knees, and reading the Bible as some pastor suggested. With total openness and faith. Not a single thought in response from the outside. I only have my own thoughts.

The Narrow Way · Oct 23, 2021

James_Lai said:
What is this evidence? Could you give examples that are most important to you?

About myself, I don’t know. I try hard to listen, to see and to think.

I see His hand in NATURE. I live in the Country and work outside alot. Everywhere I look, I see how much He loves us. He could have given us a BLACK & WHITE world...but instead, He made it BEAUTIFUL with COLOR.

I see His hand in PROVIDENCE. He brought my husband and I together from different parts of the Country and complete opposite backgrounds, and has blessed our marriage tremendously.

I see His hand in the WONDERS of the human body. If evolution were true, there wouldn't be anymore monkeys, they would have all become humans by now. But thankfully, evolution is not true...and the Biblical account of Creation explains how we all came into existence. We can choose to believe the Creation story or cling to the evolution story (which actually takes more faith to believe because there is so much evidence for Creation.)

I see His hand in all the Bible stories...leading us to apply the lessons in these stories to our everyday lives, causing us to grow closer to Jesus everyday.

James_Lai · Oct 23, 2021

Some Christians claim they ask a question and then randomly open the Bible and see the answer there. I tried it, but it never worked for me. I didn’t get any clear answers. Sometimes it’s kind of close if you want to interpret it that way, but mostly unrelated. Sounds like a pure chance thing

honestal · Oct 23, 2021

James_Lai said:
Hello. Thank you for praying for me, I appreciate your care.

...when I pray or call to God or seek Him or fast, there is no answer. Life doesn’t change. Circumstances don’t change. People around don’t change. There is no effect.

I'm not exactly sure what kind of answers you're hoping for (or looking for), but as I said in my first post: For me, life has changed drastically.

I'll give you what to me is one extremely important (and extremely undervalued) example:

God has taught me the exceeding great importance of SELF-CONTROL.

Going along with that, He has helped me to gain great victories in that aspect of life. And I assure you, that growth has brought me much happiness. (I'm not in any way saying I've reached perfection in that regard, but it certainly is encouraging to see growth and victory.)

To be more specific: I'm especially referring to self-control in appetite and passion--or to put in clearer terms: eating and sex.

The failure of mankind to control their appetites and sexual desires--and sadly, that includes the Christian world pretty much just as much as the non-Christian world--is bringing untold ruin, both physically and morally.

What makes it even worse for Christians is that they have no excuse for not knowing the importance of self-control, because the Bible is very clear concerning it.

“When the Holy Spirit controls our lives he will produce this kind of fruit in us: love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control.” {Galatians 5:22, 23 NLT}

(It's no small thing that self-control is one of the fruits of the Spirit.)

“A few days later Felix came with his wife, Drusilla, who was Jewish. Sending for Paul, they listened as he told them about faith in Christ Jesus. As he reasoned with them about righteousness and self-control and the judgment to come, Felix trembled. “Go away for now,” he replied. “When it is more convenient, I’ll call you again.” {Acts 24:24, 25 NLT, KJV}

(Think about it a minute: Paul is given the opportunity to witness before the governor and we're told he talks to him about three things, with one of them being self-control.)

“All athletes practice strict self-control. They do it to win a prize that will fade away, but we do it for an eternal prize.” {1 Corinthians 9:25 NLT} :scratch:

(Remember: It's not me who wrote that verse, but God's inspired apostle.)

“The grace of God teaches us… to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives.” {Titus 2:11, 12 NIV}

Thankfully... not only does the grace of God teach us to live self-controlled lives--it enables us to live self-controlled lives:

“I do not mean that we are able to say that we can do this work ourselves. It is God who makes us able to do all that we do.” {2 Corinthians 3:5 NCV}

The Narrow Way · Oct 23, 2021

James_Lai said:
Some Christians claim they ask a question and then randomly open the Bible and see the answer there. I tried it, but it never worked for me. I didn’t get any clear answers. Sometimes it’s kind of close if you want to interpret it that way, but mostly unrelated. Sounds like a pure chance thing

Yes, I don't believe in that type of thing, either.

Mark Quayle · Oct 23, 2021

James_Lai said:
Okay. If so, then many passages of the Bible, and the resulting church doctrines are obsolete. If God withdrew Himself from the world in this age, as compared to the past, then we need a revised Bible or a new Christianity that does take this update into account. Otherwise we can’t continue to think and act as if God is still active

That's as mistaken as it can be! Even if one rejects the principle of "walk by faith and not by sight", logic still disagrees with you, and I'm not even referring here to the cosmological argument, but to the notion that relevance is only according to manifest miracles/'scientific proofs'-i.e.-empirical-evidences. Or do you have some other measure I haven't understood you to go by?

What passages and what church doctrines are you referring to, drawn on "obsolete" passages of the Bible? Give me an example, please.

You say, "If God withdrew Himself from the world in this age, as compared to the past..." yet you have no measure for such an assessment except as demonstrated by [apparently] more miracles et al in the past than the present. He is no more withdrawn now than then —in fact, if anything, he is more 'with us' now than then, to whatever degree hidden or unproven to temporal sight he might be.

How do you assess the OT and NT as irrelevant to today? The notion that God doesn't show himself in the same simple or obvious terms nowadays as he used to (for which notion I still haven't seen proof, since the accounts are few compared to 4000 years, and 2000 years respectively, compared to a short lifetime today and the accounts of (at least) miracles nowadays, discarded for "lack of evidence") has no bearing on whether the accounts, prophecy, progressions, doctrine, wisdom and poetry are obsolete or irrelevant.

James_Lai said:
I understand. Well, cosmology and life can be used to prove the opposite idea: there is no God because we don’t need Him to explain the origin and functioning of the observable Universe

Hardly. Cosmology and life can not be used to prove we don't need him in explaining the origin. Neither science nor philosophy can do so. Show me how they prove such a thing!

James_Lai · Oct 23, 2021

honestal said:
I'm not exactly sure what kind of answers you're hoping for (or looking for), but as I said in my first post: For me, life has changed drastically.

I'll give you what to me is one extremely important (and extremely undervalued) example:

God has taught me the exceeding great importance of SELF-CONTROL.

Going along with that, He has helped me to gain great victories in that aspect of life. And I assure you, that growth has brought me much happiness. (I'm not in any way saying I've reached perfection in that regard, but it certainly is encouraging to see growth and victory.)

To be more specific: I'm especially referring to self-control in appetite and passion--or to put in clearer terms: eating and sex.

The failure of mankind to control their appetites and sexual desires--and sadly, that includes the Christian world pretty much just as much as the non-Christian world--is bringing untold ruin, both physically and morally.

What makes it even worse for Christians is that they have no excuse for not knowing the importance of self-control, because the Bible is very clear concerning it.

“When the Holy Spirit controls our lives he will produce this kind of fruit in us: love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control.” {Galatians 5:22, 23 NLT}

(It's no small thing that self-control is one of the fruits of the Spirit.)

“A few days later Felix came with his wife, Drusilla, who was Jewish. Sending for Paul, they listened as he told them about faith in Christ Jesus. As he reasoned with them about righteousness and self-control and the judgment to come, Felix trembled. “Go away for now,” he replied. “When it is more convenient, I’ll call you again.” {Acts 24:24, 25 NLT, KJV}

(Think about it a minute: Paul is given the opportunity to witness before the governor and we're told he talks to him about three things, with one of them being self-control.)

“All athletes practice strict self-control. They do it to win a prize that will fade away, but we do it for an eternal prize.” {1 Corinthians 9:25 NLT}

(Remember: It's not me who wrote that verse, but God's inspired apostle.)

“The grace of God teaches us… to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives.” {Titus 2:11, 12 NIV}

Thankfully... not only does the grace of God teach us to live self-controlled lives--it enables us to live self-controlled lives:

“I do not mean that we are able to say that we can do this work ourselves. It is God who makes us able to do all that we do.” {2 Corinthians 3:5 NCV}

Discipline is very good. It’s the only thing that can lead to success in any field, and in life in general.

I praise you for attaining improvement in this area as an adult. Usually discipline is instilled from the young age, in the later years it’s a lot harder.

I value this quality highly. In the Western society, you value freedoms of the individual and there is much lower overall competition for success and survival. So in my opinion, as the result, discipline is a challenge for many. You also tend to be less united and less caring about the success of society as a whole.

Though I praise and commend you for achieving moral discipline in two major areas and probably others you didn’t mention, I see your own effort in that. Yes, faith was a catalyst, but it was your own doing.

Andrewn · Oct 23, 2021

James_Lai said:
But those are standard Christian teachings about the Bible. What is your view?

These are standard views of Evangelicals. For the rest of Christians, the NT is mostly literal (except Jude and Revelation) but the OT is to be understood figuratively, explained according to the NT, and taking into consideration the views of surrounding cultures and progressive development in philosophy and revelation.

James_Lai said:
I don’t mean audible voice, though why not? Or are we setting the limits for His operation only within the natural laws? Then He’s equal to nature.

If God chooses to speak with an audible voice, this is his privilege. Evangelical preachers frequently claim on TV that He speaks to them. Almost all my friends are Evangelicals. They are really sincere people but I don't know anyone in real life who experienced this. Perhaps other participants in this thread can shed light on the issue.

James_Lai said:
I mean, any form of communication, including telepathically as you described. I never received any form of communication. I even tried to fast and pray for the whole night standing on my knees, and reading the Bible as some pastor suggested. With total openness and faith. Not a single thought in response from the outside. I only have my own thoughts.

I hope that my thoughts conform to his thoughts.

In a previous message, I suggested certain authors. The other think that may be useful is Catholic retreats, they can be wonderful. Meanwhile, please do not get discouraged.

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