Confessing your sins to a priest? ( Or other authority)

Paidiske said:

I have argued the deficiency. I have pointed out that people who are wounded, broken, traumatised, or otherwise struggling, are harmed by the expectation that they share all of that with all and sundry. Time, space, and relationships of safety and trust are essential to healing.



No. No no no no no. We cannot harm others because of potential benefits. First, do no harm, is as important in the cure of souls as it is in the cure of bodies.



It's not that extreme, though. In most congregations of any size, there will be many people with such needs.



God will bring good out of bad situations, but that does not mean we should not be appropriately self-protective.

Note: the accusation of unbelief is a flame, and likely to get you a warning from the moderators. I suggest you avoid such accusations.



Except it's not good for everyone in all situations, so as an ideal, it's pretty flawed.



I think it's pretty central to the practice of ministry, actually.



I don't think I agree. Pressure to conform - except on the most basic of levels necessary for the existence of a community, as noted above - almost certainly is a problem.



Always there must be free choice, though. Coercion in ministry is abusive.



The restraint needs to be internal, a matter of conscience; not external, a matter of control.



It's both. Expectations in general are suspect, but this particular expectation is especially problematic. Forcing disclosure is a terrible, terrible thing to do to someone.



A disposition of trust is a good thing. It must be allowed to grow naturally, not expecting people to trust before they're ready. To say otherwise is certainly problematic in the ways I've outlined.

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I will say one final thing rather than responding point to point. Essentially, you have not argued the deficiency, you have argued we should cater to the unhealthy. What I am arguing is we should attend to health, creating expectations of healthy behaviors within the community at large. Openness and trust are healthy behaviors, and so should an ethic that encourages them should be fostered. Does that mean people should be encouraged to blindly trust, or go against their better judgment and trust people they have reason to believe are untrustworthy? No, absolutely not. But it is a basic, community disposition of trust and a habit of making confession to one another that I am proposing, not the extreme caricature you've been "warning" against.

renniks said:

I'm not sure how to approach this topic without sounding like I'm trying to debate, which I'm not.
What I want to understand from those of you who go to confession is what benefits you feel it brings.
Is it mainly a matter of feeling better after?
Is it hard to confess and is truly anonymous?
Do you confess in a general way or very specifically?
Are there sins that won't immediately be forgiven? I guess the question there is whether penance is really a thing that is practiced today?
I'm sure I'll think of other questions.
Again not here to debate. It's just an interesting idea to me. I think I see the appeal but I might be looking at it wrong.

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It goes back to Christ's word to His apostles, "Whoever's sins you forgive are forgiven them." Christ gave His Church the office of the Keys (see back in Matthew 16). Thus pastors, as the ministers of the Church who exercise the office of the Keys, through the preaching of the Word and administering of the Sacraments, stand in Christ's name, stead, and by His authority pronounce forgiveness of sins.

When we come together for worship and confess our sins, the pastor proclaims forgiveness of sins--not by his word, not by his authority, not by his name; but only by the name, authority, and word of Jesus Christ our Lord. And thus we are truly forgiven.

Absolution is a means of grace which the Lord Jesus has given His Church to loose the bonds of sin and death on us. In the same way that Christ gave us Holy Baptism and the Holy Eucharist, He has given us Holy Absolution as part of the means by which we experience God's grace in the Church.

The benefit is that this is God's Word and Sacrament, for the forgiveness of our sins, that we might be nourished and sustained by God's grace, walk in the freedom of forgiveness, and have our faith sustained by the Holy Spirit.

Lutherans recognize that this corporate confession of sins is all that is necessary; but we have never despised private confession to the pastor if it is desired. Private confession can afford a more one-on-one pastoral experience. While we must be confident that truly in the General Confession all our sins are truly forgiven; we may find that there are certain things that we would like to discuss with our spiritual father, our pastor, who can proclaim the same Absolution of course; but also give advice on how to move forward, and to give further words of comfort to us in our grief and sorrow.

Private confession is not necessary, but always available for those who desire it.

-CryptoLutheran

Fervent said:

Essentially, you have not argued the deficiency, you have argued we should cater to the unhealthy.

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If the church is a hospital for sinners, each should have their treatment tailored to their condition.

Fervent said:

But it is a basic, community disposition of trust and a habit of making confession to one another that I am proposing, not the extreme caricature you've been "warning" against.

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I think the lines between these two become very blurred in the way you post.

Paidiske said:

If the church is a hospital for sinners, each should have their treatment tailored to their condition.

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It is not our place to tailor treatment. Healthy communities foster healthy growth, and healthy communities are places of accountability and expectations.

Paidiske said:

I think the lines between these two become very blurred in the way you post.

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Perhaps my posting style is problematic, but considering I repeatedly pointed out you are making a caricature of what I am saying and you never bothered trying to actually understand my proposition instead insisting on arguing against the caricature I'll take what you say with a grain of salt.

renniks said:

I'm not sure how to approach this topic without sounding like I'm trying to debate, which I'm not.
What I want to understand from those of you who go to confession is what benefits you feel it brings.
Is it mainly a matter of feeling better after?
Is it hard to confess and is truly anonymous?
Do you confess in a general way or very specifically?
Are there sins that won't immediately be forgiven? I guess the question there is whether penance is really a thing that is practiced today?
I'm sure I'll think of other questions.
Again not here to debate. It's just an interesting idea to me. I think I see the appeal but I might be looking at it wrong.

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James 5:16
For this reason, confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of the righteous person is powerful in what it can achieve.

Fervent said:

It is not our place to tailor treatment.

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Not our place...? Perhaps we can at least acknowledge the need for tailored treatment, as it were?

Albion said:

The authority to forgive and retain sins was given, but the "Sacrament" of Penance/Reconciliation, in the form we know today, didn't even exist in the Church until the Middle Ages.

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If I recall correctly, having to confess to priest for forgiveness didn't start until the 9th century.

Personally I think perhaps the church started the confession to a priest to obtain forgiveness ritual in the dark ages as another means of keeping the populace under their control, by making them believe they were dependent upon the church to keep them from being sent to purgatory and or hell.

Paidiske said:

Not our place...? Perhaps we can at least acknowledge the need for tailored treatment, as it were?

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The healing process is God's work, through the preaching of the gospel.

MMXX said:

If I recall correctly, having to confess to priest for forgiveness didn't start until the 9th century.

Personally I think perhaps the church started the confession to a priest to obtain forgiveness ritual in the dark ages as another means of keeping the populace under their control, by making them believe they were dependent upon the church to keep them from being sent to purgatory and or hell.

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Originally, confession was in front of the congregation.
“Confess your sins in church, and do not go up to your prayer with an evil conscience. This is the way of life. . . . On the Lord’s Day gather together, break bread, and give thanks, after confessing your transgressions so that your sacrifice may be pure” (Didache 4:14, 14:1 [A.D. 70]).


Confession of individual sins as well as heresies could be done to a priest.
“Of how much greater faith and salutary fear are they who . . . confess their sins to the priests of God in a straightforward manner and in sorrow, making an open declaration of conscience. . . . I beseech you, brethren, let everyone who has sinned confess his sin while he is still in this world, while his confession is still admissible, while the satisfaction and remission made through the priests are still pleasing before the Lord” (Cyprian of Carthage The Lapsed A.D. 251).

The letter of Pope Leo AD 459 decrees to stop public confessions and institute private confessions. Even in the Eastern church private confession began around the 6th century.

GreekOrthodox said:

Originally, confession was in front of the congregation.
“Confess your sins in church, and do not go up to your prayer with an evil conscience. This is the way of life. . . . On the Lord’s Day gather together, break bread, and give thanks, after confessing your transgressions so that your sacrifice may be pure” (Didache 4:14, 14:1 [A.D. 70]).

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What sacrifice?

GreekOrthodox said:

Confession of individual sins as well as heresies could be done to a priest.
“Of how much greater faith and salutary fear are they who . . . confess their sins to the priests of God in a straightforward manner and in sorrow, making an open declaration of conscience. . . . I beseech you, brethren, let everyone who has sinned confess his sin while he is still in this world, while his confession is still admissible, while the satisfaction and remission made through the priests are still pleasing before the Lord” (Cyprian of Carthage The Lapsed A.D. 251).

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That's not saying forgiveness only comes though a priest is it?

GreekOrthodox said:

The letter of Pope Leo AD 459 decrees to stop public confessions and institute private confessions. Even in the Eastern church private confession began around the 6th century.

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I was under the impression somewhere down the line from there it became an ultimatum.

MMXX said:

What sacrifice?

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Most likely this refers to the Eucharistic service as a whole

MMXX said:

That's not saying forgiveness only comes though a priest is it?

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The Orthodox confession is different from the west (although the Russians have a different form). The confession is a confession of our sins to God with the priest serving as a witness. We normally have confession in the church itself. In my profile picture, you can see an icon of Christ to the right side. I will kneel in front of that icon for some initial prayers with my priest standing next to me. We then will stand or sit in one of the pews for the actual confession, which normally is a discussion about particular sins. Then we go back up to the icon and I kneel and the priest places his stole over me, and says:

“My spiritual child, who have make your confession to my humble person: I, a humble sinner, have no power to forgive sins on earth; only God can do that; but trusting in the divinely spoken words that were addressed to the Apostles after the Resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ, which said, “If you pronounce unforgiven the sins of any, they remain unforgiven”, we are bold to say: Whatever you have related to my humble and lowly person, and whatever you have failed to say either from ignorance or from forgetfulness, whatever it may be, may God forgive you in this present age and in the age to come.”

MMXX said:

I was under the impression somewhere down the line from there it became an ultimatum.

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Orthodox are expected to confess typically 4 times a year or so, generally during one of the fasts: Lent, Apostles (last week or so of June), Dormition (first two weeks of August), and Nativity (Nov 15 to Christmas). Russians typically will have a short confession either on Saturday night or Sunday morning as the Matins service is going on, if they are going to receive Communion that day.

Fervent said:

The healing process is God's work, through the preaching of the gospel.

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How ironic that you so emphasise the life of the community, yet fail to see the community as an agent of God's healing work.

Paidiske said:

How ironic that you so emphasise the life of the community, yet fail to see the community as an agent of God's healing work.

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Define "agent of God's healing work." Because what I denied is that it is up to us to decide what and where to direct the healing. God alone knows what individuals need and is responsible for leading their care. The community as a hospital for sinners creates an undue image of one-sidedness on what the community entails, as it is also responsible for discipline and accountability. Does God's healing take place in the community? Yes, but God alone knows the prescription needed which will be found in the gospel alone.

Fervent said:

Define "agent of God's healing work." Because what I denied is that it is up to us to decide what and where to direct the healing. God alone knows what individuals need and is responsible for leading their care.

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Then why gift and call some as pastors? Is the cure of souls not exactly what they are called to?

Paidiske said:

Then why gift and call some as pastors? Is the cure of souls not exactly what they are called to?

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Maintaining the accurate preaching of the gospel, administering common resources, conducting communal discipline, standing between the hostile world and the flock. They are called to feed, not cure.

Fervent said:

Maintaining the accurate preaching of the gospel, administering common resources, conducting communal discipline, standing between the hostile world and the flock. They are called to feed, not cure.

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That is not the church's historical understanding. The "cure of souls" is the work of the church, and in particular of authorised people within it, and has been understood that way for millennia.

This may be the root of our disagreement. If I see the cure of souls as a fundamental and inalienable aspect of my ministry, I cannot agree to ignore it when it comes to matters of confession.

Paidiske said:

That is not the church's historical understanding. The "cure of souls" is the work of the church, and in particular of authorised people within it, and has been understood that way for millennia.

This may be the root of our disagreement. If I see the cure of souls as a fundamental and inalienable aspect of my ministry, I cannot agree to ignore it when it comes to matters of confession.

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This is a whole matter that will take us even farther from the thread than we have already gone.

As a Catholic ex-Protestant, I don't get to Confession enough ("Reconciliation" as we now call it). I presume we are "reconciling ourselves to God" by our confession of the sins which offend Him, and damage our relationship with Him.

I find it a bit embarrassing, but I suppose there's not much priests haven't heard over the years. I'm always amused with television shows which make priests look naive. If there's anyone who wouldn't be naive, it would be priests.

It reminds me of the lumberjack joke. A priest went to a tough forestry camp to hear confessions. A bunch of gruff, tough lumberjacks turned up. The first one went in and said "I've been really bad. I've broken just about every rule in the book!"

The priest had a lot of confessions to hear, so he just asked "Well, have you committed murder?"

The lumberjack said he hadn't. Considering how many confessions he had to go, the priest just told the lumberjack to say an "Our Father" and to avoid sins in the future.

The lumberjack went outside and saw a long line of men waiting to see the priest. "No good today boys!" he yelled out, "He's only hearing murders!"

The Catholic claim about confession goes right back to the Apostles when Christ said;

John 20:22:23 NIV -

"And with that he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive anyone’s sins, their sins are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.”

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Christ was giving the church authority. His words are eternal and come down to us through the ages, along with the agency of the Holy Spirit, who is also eternal. The Church believes this authority has been passed down by apostolic succession, and will be valid as long as the Church exists.

I'm wary of public confessions, which can cause a lot of damage to the person involved, and other people who might be named in such a confession.

I didn't read the whole thread, but I think what I have to add will be useful.

I was under the impression that Jesus dying on the cross was the payment for all my sin and all parts of my sin. If that is not the case, then how much am I contributing to the forgiveness of my sins when I confess them to someone else? 1%? 5%? 10%? If to be saved essentialy means to be reconciled to God, i.e. to have no sin before God, how much am I contributing to my salvation when I confess to someone else?

I was baptized in a Church that teaches that, before you get baptised you have to go before some of the elders of the church and 'confess your sins'. For days, I had been racking my brains to remember every sin I have ever commited because I was scared that if I missed anything it would not be forgiven. Of course, that is impossible, as evidenced by the fact that I was still remembering stuff well after my 'confession'. I was standing in the baptismal, still remembering sins from my past and fighting hard to ignore them in order to 'have a clean conscience' at that moment.

The entire experience was so traumatic that I'm fairly confident that it's what pushed me into OCD, more precisely, primarily scrupulosity or religous-OCD (I seem to suffer from three different types of obsessions, the main one being scrupulosity). Maybe it would have happened anyway, since OCD runs in my family, but since then (around 10 months) life has pretty much been a living hell. Not only that, but since then I have also found out that some of the sins I 'confessed' that night, and why it was so traumatic, were probably due to other mental conditions I suffer from. I'm not saying this to claim that mental illness is an excuse, or licence, for sin, but we're talking about things that, now that I am more aware of what I'm probably suffering from (I am phrasing it this way because I have not been 'officially diagnosed' by a psychiatrist yet - I'm only basing this on my own research into why I might be the way I am), don't seem as grievous. Obviously, I'm not going to go into more detail than this on this platform, but if you knew what I'm talking about it would make sense to you.

I've been trying to make sense of what has been happening to me and I'm fairly convinced that everything that has happened to me is somehow God's hand at work in my life, so I'm trying really hard to forgive the people that have caused this to me, but it's not easy at all.

I don't wish this illness to anyone. It has caused so much grief, anger, resentment and backsliding. There were so many times when I just wanted to stop existing. There were so many times when I simply stopped believing and returned to the world because I couldn't see a reason to put up with it anymore (in fact, I'm in such a situation right now).

But, if what I think it's happening is true, then, hopefully, one day, by the Grace of God I will be somewhat normal again.

What I'm trying to say is: please stop for a second and realize that practices like public confession can be extremely traumatic to some, especially if they already have mental health issues or are predisposed to them. Unless they are essential to salvation (personally, I have not found this in the Bible), use wisdom and understanding and don't place more burdens on believer than God has asked for.

Be blessed.