Question for Seventh Day Adventist

tall73 · Oct 22, 2021

BobRyan said:
Rom 2:
2 And we know that the judgment of God rightly falls upon those who practice such things. 3 But do you suppose this, you foolish person who passes judgment on those who practice such things, and yet does them as well, that you will escape the judgment of God? 4 Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and restraint and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? 5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who will repay each person according to his deeds:

So that is "according to deeds" not "according to ability out argue God"

Who said anyone will be saved by out-arguing God? No one successfully argues with God. He is just.

But that is the point. He is seen to be just because He asks an account, and all bow the knee, confess, etc. Some object, but then He sets the record straight. In other words, at His coming He brings to light the things hidden. They have no answer. He reveals the purposes of the heart. These are all things you say happen at the IJ, but they are clearly stated to happen when the Lord comes, and not before.

1Co 4:5 Therefore do not pronounce judgment before the time, before the Lord comes, who will bring to light the things now hidden in darkness and will disclose the purposes of the heart. Then each one will receive his commendation from God.

7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek glory, honor, and immortality, He will give eternal life; 8 but to those who are self-serving and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, He will give wrath and indignation.

9 There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of mankind who does evil, for the Jew first and also for the Greek, 10 but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who does what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

Again it is based on what the person"does" not on their ability to "out argue God".

The fact that Scripture shows some objecting does not mean anyone out argues God, or that the basis is arguing.

But it does show they are present in order to give an account and argue. Hence the parable of the talents shows them giving account. And this texts shows them objecting, but then being called out on their record of lawlessness.

Mat 7:22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’
Mat 7:23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

These are clearly professed followers. And they are present and object, but He points out they are workers of lawlessness and they have no answer.

Moreover, the following text clearly shows that they are present.

They stand before...that is not just a record, but them standing.
They bow
They confess
They give account.

Rom 14:10 Why do you pass judgment on your brother? Or you, why do you despise your brother? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God;
Rom 14:11 for it is written, “As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.”
Rom 14:12 So then each of us will give an account of himself to God

We are not to judge because God will, and He does this in person, as we must give account, and we ultimately bow and confess that He is Lord, and that His judgment is just.

That cannot be the IJ where you don't even know your name is up.

13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the Law who will be justified.

14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law instinctively perform the requirements of the Law, these, though not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience testifying and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of mankind through Christ Jesus.

== hence the reference to Romans 2 in my post above.

The timing of the secrets of mankind being judged is spelled out to be at His coming.

1Co 4:5 Therefore do not pronounce judgment before the time, before the Lord comes, who will bring to light the things now hidden in darkness and will disclose the purposes of the heart. Then each one will receive his commendation from God.

None of the texts you quote show someone arguing with God and presenting a point in their own favor and then winning any good result.

They are called to account as we see in the parable of the talents where they state what they have done.

And the other gives an account of what he didn't do and that account is shown to condemn him.

In fact in your Matt 25 the saints do not present one single "argument in their own favor".

Yet Jesus presents their record when they don't even realize it. No one is judged favorably because they argue with God. Yet we do appear before God to give account.

Rom 14:12 So then each of us will give an account of himself to God

2 Cor 5
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive recompense for his deeds done through the body, in accordance with what he has done, whether good or bad.

Not at all about arguing God into or out of something. It is a matter of what is recorded.

You are the one saying arguing God into or out of something. I am saying we must give account because Scripture does. But even here the timing of your text is indicated because we appear before, and there we RECEIVE. No one receives in EGW's IJ.

But we do receive when we appear before the throne of Christ who reveals the hidden things, we give an account, and we receive our reward.

Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds.

Dan 7:
9 “I kept looking
Until thrones were set up,
And the Ancient of Days took His seat;
His garment was white as snow,
And the hair of His head like pure wool.
His throne was ablaze with flames,
Its wheels were a burning fire.
10 A river of fire was flowing
And coming out from before Him;
Thousands upon thousands were serving Him,
And myriads upon myriads were standing before Him;
The court convened,
And the books were opened.

Indeed, and notice how you, just like Ellen White, had to go to a different chapter to find judgment of individuals because it is not in Daniel 7.

Daniel 7 shows judgment in favor of the saints as a group against their adversaries, which are powers.

And God has been judging powers on their deeds all along. He promised judgment on Egypt and the Ammorites in Genesis, but said the Amorites had not yet filled up their full measure of wrath. He called out the nations in the prophets, listing their wicked deeds.

Pointing to books shows judgment on deeds. But the deeds described throughout Daniel 7 are those of the powers who are persecuting the saints.

Moreover, again, Ellen White says that the IJ is ONLY on the professed people of God. Certainly not all of the Babylonians were professed people of God.

21 I kept looking, and that horn was waging war with the saints and prevailing against them, 22 until the Ancient of Days came and judgment was passed in favor of the saints of the Highest One, and the time arrived when the saints took possession of the kingdom.

Yes, the little horn--a discreet entity--was waging war against the saints--a discreet entity. It describes the actions of the little horn and shows how the saints are delivered and judgment is found in their favor, and against their adversary.

It does not discuss the deeds of the saints. And it does not show judgment of individual cases. And since the authority of the beasts is stripped by the court it is not only on the professed people of god.

BobRyan · Oct 22, 2021

tall73 said:
Ellen White spelled out something not happening in Daniel 7, but then claimed it was happening in Daniel 7.

As was already shown today's post by me - she points out a detail in the judgment of Dan 7 that we find spelled out in triplicate for us in Romans 2 and 2 Cor 5:10.

In the same way that Gen 1 does not mention marriage or the garden of Eden but Gen 2 lets us know that this in fact was included in the 6th day of Gen 1.

Nothing new about this so far.

tall73 said:
Indeed, and notice how you, just like Ellen White, had to go to a different chapter to find judgment of individuals because it is not in Daniel 7.

And had to go to a "different chapter" in the Bible to see that the garden of Eden and Tree of life were actually made on Day 6 - in the Gen 1 account. And that Adam was created first and then Eve.

The suggestion that no doctrine should be established on more than one text in the Bible - is not a generally accepted method of Bible study - as we all may/migh already know.

Most Christians would not claim Ellen White is the only one who would notice that the narrative in Gen 2 adds detail to the 7 day creation account of Gen 1 and specifically what happened on day 6.

As it turns out this is a key element in what is called "exegesis" which means paying attention to the added detail you find in other Bible chapters related to a specific doctrine/teaching.

You are talking like all this is news to you now. But I believe you already knew all of this as a Pastor in the church

Judgment in heaven out of the books of record that are opened in the Dan 7:9-10 pre-advent judgment – is always an individual judgment as we see in Rev 20 when “books are opened” judgment is based in specific deeds of the person (as the text says) and as Christ reminds us in Matt 7 “not everyone who SAYS Lord Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven – but rather he who DOES the will of My Father”

BobRyan · Oct 22, 2021

tall73 said: ↑
We stand before the judgment seat
We bow
We confess
We give an account.

tall73 said:
Who said anyone will be saved by out-arguing God? No one successfully argues with God. He is just.

In Romans 2 and 2 Cor 5:10 and Rev 20 we are reminded that it is the record of what actually was done - that makes the case for or against each person.

We are not physically "seated with Christ in heaven" Eph 2

Eph 2:
4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our wrongdoings, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus

We are not physically "standing in front of Jesus" in the judgment that happens for the saints before the 2nd coming mentioned in Dan 7.

Daniel Marsh · Oct 22, 2021

nice topic all

AdamjEdgar · Oct 22, 2021

Daniel Marsh said:
nice topic all

It certainly does spruik controversy

BobRyan · Oct 22, 2021

tall73 said:
The timing of the secrets of mankind being judged is spelled out to be at His coming.

1Co 4:5 Therefore do not pronounce judgment before the time, before the Lord comes, who will bring to light the things now hidden in darkness and will disclose the purposes of the heart. Then each one will receive his commendation from God.

Each one does not receive his reward until the Rev 20 judgment because the saints get their reward at the resurrection 1 Thess 4:13-18, appearing Rev 19, and rapture of the church... but the wicked do not all get their reward until the end of Rev 20 at the end of the 1000 years.

Now we "cut to the chase" in this post

BobRyan said:
Interesting but you are going down the wrong road and I think I can prove it to you.

A. 1 Thess 4:13-18 - is this the resurrection of the saints or the wicked or both in your POV? (I think we both know your answer but I could be wrong in my guess about your answer).

B. Rev 20 - the second resurrection - that happens after 1000 years --- is this the resurrection of the saints or the wicked or both in your POV? (I think we both know your answer but I could be wrong in my guess about your answer).

Assuming you have the correct understanding of those two resurrections - then you also have the answer to your own question and you also know that my statement in my past few posts on this topic are correct.

That is the real heart of the matter - your own beliefs leave you in a self-conflicted position.

tall73 · Oct 22, 2021

BobRyan said:
Rom 14:10 Why do you pass judgment on your brother? Or you, why do you despise your brother? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God;

The case of the righteous comes up as Rom 2 shows "future" to Paul's day and as Dan 7 points out "before the 2nd coming".

Bob, no one "stands" in the judgment in the iJ. They are not there. They do stand by plain texts already mentioned before the throne of Christ in Matthew, 25, etc.

What do you think is happening in Matthew 25? What is happening in the parable of the talents?

Rom 14:11 for it is written, “As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.”

In Rev 20 after the 1000 years - all will bow --- both the wicked (raised in the 2nd resurrection) and the saints.... every knee

Are the righteous giving an account at the judgment in Rev. 20 then? This has reference to their judgment which you don't see there.

Tall73: Also, he never explained how Ellen White says the judgment is only on professed followers of God.

Interesting

It is only "interesting" that Ellen White says the IJ is only on the professed people of God, but Daniel 7, which you see as the IJ, judges pagan powers who were not professed people of God?

I am going to need more out of you than "interesting" on that one. They don't match up.

tall73 · Oct 22, 2021

AdamjEdgar said:
I

It does appear that she focuses initially on just the judging of those who profess to believe the truth (I assume this means "Christians/followers of God) as opposed to those who are wicked.

Yes, the IJ is, in her view, only regarding those who are professed followers of God. It does not include the wicked which she says it later.

But that means Daniel 7 is not that IJ. Because it judges Babylon, Persia, etc. according to the Adventist view, and they were not all professed followers of God.

tall73 · Oct 22, 2021

BobRyan said:
Interesting but you are going down the wrong road and I think I can prove it to you.

A. 1 Thess 4:13-18 - is this the resurrection of the saints or the wicked or both in your POV? (I think we both know your answer but I could be wrong in my guess about your answer).

The passage is dealing with those who have fallen asleep among the bretheren and they are to comfort one anothe that they will still be re-united at the resurrection. Therefore this passage mentions only those who sleep in Christ.

Now who is this text describing, and when?

2Th 1:5 This is evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are also suffering—
2Th 1:6 since indeed God considers it just to repay with affliction those who afflict you,
2Th 1:7 and to grant relief to you who are afflicted as well as to us, when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels
2Th 1:8 in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.
2Th 1:9 They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might,
2Th 1:10 when he comes on that day to be glorified in his saints, and to be marveled at among all who have believed, because our testimony to you was believed.

B. Rev 20 - the second resurrection - that happens after 1000 years --- is this the resurrection of the saints or the wicked or both in your POV? (I think we both know your answer but I could be wrong in my guess about your answer).

Assuming you have the correct understanding of those two resurrections - then you also have the answer to your own question and you also know that my statement in my past few posts on this topic are correct.

Well let's see what Revelation says about the first resurrection to start with. Who are raised in the first resurrection?

Rev 20:3 and threw him into the pit, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he might not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were ended. After that he must be released for a little while.
Rev 20:4 Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended. This is the first resurrection.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection! Over such the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for a thousand years.

tall73 · Oct 22, 2021

BobRyan said:
As was already shown today's post by me - she points out a detail in the judgment of Dan 7 that we find spelled out in triplicate for us in Romans 2 and 2 Cor 5:10.

She notes that it is there. But you can't find it there--the judging of individual professed believers.

But more to the point you have something that CANNOT be there if it is what she claims. You have the judging of the Babylonians who are not all professed followers of God.

So she is trying to say something is there that is not there. Now you say she is Ellen white so she can say that and we believe it on her authority. Fine. I get you say that, but it is hardly convincing to others. But then you cannot say that it is talking about that when the judging of non-professed followers also occurs. The two are describing different things.

So if Ellen White describes something that the facts of Daniel 7 don't support, we must go with Scripture, or else you don't really test by Scripture.

Now if the text of Daniel 7 doesn't support her IJ scenario, then saying that Daniel 7 marks the time of that IJ scenario doesn't make sense either. It is not talking about the IJ, and the facts specifically rule it out.

In the same way that Gen 1 does not mention marriage or the garden of Eden but Gen 2 lets us know that this in fact was included in the 6th day of Gen 1.

Except in this case the actual statements in Daniel 7 rule out her scenaioro--there is judgment of other than professed followers of God. It cannot be her IJ.

Most Christians would not claim Ellen White is the only one who would notice that the narrative in Gen 2 adds detail to the 7 day creation account of Gen 1 and specifically what happened on day 6.

As it turns out this is a key element in what is called "exegesis" which means paying attention to the added detail you find in other Bible chapters related to a specific doctrine/teaching.

You are talking like all this is news to you now. But I believe you already knew all of this as a Pastor in the church

No, you are talking about two different things. Ellen White spells out a judgment of ONLY professed followers of God and says it is in Daniel 7.

Daniel 7 indicates judgment on powers, which Adventists interpret as Babylon, Persia, etc. who are not professed followers of God. She is not pointing out extra things from other contexts. She is injecting a scenario that is not present in Daniel 7 and CANNOT be by her criteria. Because Daniel 7 shows judgment on non-professed believers.

BobRyan · Oct 22, 2021

tall73 said:
She notes that it is there. But you can't find it there--the judging of individual professed believers.

You find the pre-advent judgment in Dan 7, 2 Cor 5:10 and Rom 2 - but you do not find all the combined details in each chapter -- in any one chapter.

I have made that point a few times -- and I also point out that your own views on the resurrection in 1 Thess 4 and Rev 20 -- likely leave you stuck having to admit to this as well.

tall73 said:
No, you are talking about two different things. Ellen White spells out a judgment of ONLY professed followers of God and says it is in Daniel 7.

as do you when you address 1 Thess 4:13-18

tall73 said:
But more to the point you have something that CANNOT be there if it is what she claims. You have the judging of the Babylonians who are not all professed followers of God.

Dan 7 includes the 1260 years of the dark ages and all persecution of the saints going right up until the 2nd coming. In Dan 7 we see judgment executed on the wicked that remain at the end of time - but the Dan 7:9-10 judgment of the saints (not ON the saints) -- is specifically about the saints according to Dan 7:22 and even according to you - if you get around to answering the 1 Thess 4:13-18 question that is out here now.

has nothing to do with Ellen White.

tall73 · Oct 22, 2021

BobRyan said:
In Romans 2 and 2 Cor 5:10 and Rev 20 we are reminded that it is the record of what actually was done - that makes the case for or against each person.

And we see those things revealed, the hidden things, not at the IJ, but at Jesus' coming. Hence no judgment is to be passed before then.

1Co 4:5 Therefore do not pronounce judgment before the time, before the Lord comes, who will bring to light the things now hidden in darkness and will disclose the purposes of the heart. Then each one will receive his commendation from God.

It claims He does this at His coming. And then we receive the reward. It all happens at His Coming.

We are not physically "seated with Christ in heaven" Eph 2

Eph 2:
4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our wrongdoings, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus

We are not physically "standing in front of Jesus" in the judgment that happens for the saints before the 2nd coming mentioned in Dan 7.

In this passage we are assured of the work of God for us. It refers back to themes from Ephesians chapter 1. We are blessed IN Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places.

Eph 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places

Paul then recounts a series of blessings that we have by being in Christ (these blessings come through union with Him, by being in Him).

Eph 1:4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world...

Eph 1:7 In him we have redemption...

Eph 1:11 In him we have obtained an inheritance....

Eph 1:13 In him you also were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit...

After recounting the blessings that we have by being IN Christ Paul then relates how He wants the Ephesians to know the full extent of God's wisdom, power, etc. available for them:

Eph 1:15 For this reason, because I have heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love toward all the saints,
Eph 1:16 I do not cease to give thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers,
Eph 1:17 that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give you the Spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the knowledge of him,
Eph 1:18 having the eyes of your hearts enlightened, that you may know what is the hope to which he has called you, what are the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints,
Eph 1:19 and what is the immeasurable greatness of his power toward us who believe, according to the working of his great might
Eph 1:20 that he worked in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly places,
Eph 1:21 far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and above every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come.
Eph 1:22 And he put all things under his feet and gave him as head over all things to the church,
Eph 1:23 which is his body, the fullness of him who fills all in all.

By the working of God's mighty strength Christ was raised from the dead and seated at God's right hand in the heavenly places. There He reigns over all things in behalf of the church, which is His body.

It is in this context that we encounter the text referenced by Bob:

Eph 2:1 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins
Eph 2:2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience—
Eph 2:3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.
Eph 2:4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us,
Eph 2:5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—
Eph 2:6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
Eph 2:7 so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.

We spiritually participate in the death, burial and resurrection to new life of Christ through being IN Him. We are made alive together WITH Christ (who as we saw in chapter 1 is seated in the heavenly realms). We are spiritually there with Him, where He reigns over all things for us. And we will in the future "coming ages" we will be reigning with Him physically.

Now this spiritual reality pictured here of our position and place by being "In Christ" spiritually and connected to Him as the head of the church, does not in any way explain the texts about in person judgment.

Because the in person judgment involves confession, giving an account, etc. which only happens in person, and is spelled out to happen at Jesus' coming in the texts already shown, such as Matt. 25, at the throne judgment of sheep and goats, in the parable of the talents, in the texts that speak of us standing before His judgment seat and giving account, confessing, kneeling etc.

It is in that same time, at His coming, that we not only appear before Him, but receive our reward, as all these texts spell out.

2Co 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil.

The texts show us kneeling, confessing, given an account, etc. But in the Adventist IJ that is not the case at all.

From Great Controversy chapter 28:

The judgment is now passing in the sanctuary above. For many years this work has been in progress. Soon—none know how soon—it will pass to the cases of the living. In the awful presence of God our lives are to come up in review. At this time above all others it behooves every soul to heed the Saviour's admonition: "Watch and pray: for ye know not when the time is."

a bit later:

Perilous is the condition of those who, growing weary of their watch, turn to the attractions of the world. While the man of business is absorbed in the pursuit of gain, while the pleasure lover is seeking indulgence, while the daughter of fashion is arranging her adornments—it may be in that hour the Judge of all the earth will pronounce the sentence: "Thou art weighed in the balances, and art found wanting."

Ellen White notes that we don't know when the judgment will begin on the living. And we do not know when our case is reviewed, and we may be absorbed in the world at the time when we are weighed and found wanting.

This in absentia judgment described by Ellen White sometime prior to Jesus' coming, without our knowledge, without us giving an account, without us confessing, bowing, having the secrets of our heart revealed, and receiving commendation from God, etc. is not what the Bible texts describe

BobRyan · Oct 22, 2021

BobRyan said: ↑
Interesting but you are going down the wrong road and I think I can prove it to you.

A. 1 Thess 4:13-18 - is this the resurrection of the saints or the wicked or both in your POV? (I think we both know your answer but I could be wrong in my guess about your answer).

tall73 said:
The passage is dealing with those who have fallen asleep among the bretheren and they are to comfort one anothe that they will still be re-united at the resurrection. Therefore this passage mentions only those who sleep in Christ.

That leaves you stuck with only the saints. And Rev 20 leaves you stuck with "only the wicked" in the second resurrection.

This means that even in your own view - before any saints can be resurrected to do anything at all... to account for anything at all "in person" they must first have gone through the Dan 7 pre-advent judgment to see if they even are saints.. otherwise who is going to be resurrected at the 2nd coming - all mankind? then sort out who are saints and kill everyone else???

Your own answer leaves you stuck with the same answer you claim only Ellen White could know.

Dan 7 is the pre-advent judgement as even you appear to admit.

And Dan 7:22 says it is "passed in favor of the saints" as the text says.

that is how there can be the "first resurrection" event of 1 Thess 4:13-18 and Rev 20:1-5 --- of just the saints.

This is irrefutable and that means it negates your entire argument to this point.

This is what the Bible says. My guess is that as an SDA pastor you never actually got around to making this Bible case for the doctrine we are discussing. You may have thought at that time that only Ellen White could know this.

BobRyan · Oct 22, 2021

tall73 said:
And we see those things revealed, the hidden things, not at the IJ, but at Jesus' coming.

Jesus' coming in 2 Pet 3 encompasses both what SDA's call the "second coming" in Rev 19 and also what everyone else calls "The second coming" where Christ reigns on Earth (that we both know is in Rev 20). That combination "reveals" to all on earth the results of the Dan 7 pre-advent judgment as well as the judgment that happens during the 1000 years in Rev 20:2-5.

you are skipping over details and it is leaving you with conflicted statements.

AdamjEdgar · Oct 22, 2021

tall73 said:
Yes, the IJ is, in her view, only regarding those who are professed followers of God. It does not include the wicked which she says it later.

But that means Daniel 7 is not that IJ. Because it judges Babylon, Persia, etc. according to the Adventist view, and they were not all professed followers of God.

So is the issue here the idea of judgment, or that there are more than one of them?

When i read Daniel 7 this is what see at first glance (without trying to do anything with it)

1. Daniel 7:7,8 - rise of the fourth beast with a little horn sprouting up dislodging 3 others...it has a face and mouth and is speaking words of arrogance

2. Daniel 7:9-12 - The Ancient of Days takes his seat, the court is convened and the books are opened...the fourth beast is slain, its body thrown into the lake of fire, however, the other beasts, although losing their dominion, are granted an extension of life for a season and a time

3. Daniel 7:13,14 - The Son of Man comes in the clouds of Heaven, after the redeemed are translated back to heaven, He is then lead into the presence of the Ancient of Days and given dominion, and glory and kingship.

4. Daniel 7: 15:28 - description of the future kingdoms and the second coming of Christ.

5. Daniel 7:26 The little horn is destroyed

26But the court will convene, and his dominion will be taken away and completely destroyed forever.

why is there an issue with the IJ exactly? It seems to me that when i look at the entities being discussed, they have an awful lot in common with the same, or very similar entities spoken of elsewhere (such as other chapters in Daniel and also the book of Revelation) concerning end times.

Can we just back track a minute and rather than just thrash out to and fro over individual parts of doctrine...

For those who do not believe in the IJ, If the 1844 date is not the commencement of the IJ, would that not place us in a similar position of error to that of William Miller? It seems to me that the most obvious interpretation of Daniel 7, 8, and 9 if one does not believe in the IJ is in one of two ways:

1. deny day/year prophecy...that stops the problem in its tracks but then appears to me to give support to the return of Jesus in A.D 70 doctrine

2. that Jesus must return in 1844 even though Jesus himself said, only the Father knows the day and hour of the second coming...clearly the mistake the Millerites made!

i wonder if you could provide a short timeline (just point form) for readers here that explains the non IJ position from the decree to go and rebuild Jerusalem by Artexerxes right through until 1844

( i am not intimately familiar with the non IJ position in its entirety. Des paper is 900 pages long and I havent read that far yet...and i think others would also interested in seeing that timeline)

tall73 · Oct 22, 2021

Tall73 said: The timing of the secrets of mankind being judged is spelled out to be at His coming.

1Co 4:5 Therefore do not pronounce judgment before the time, before the Lord comes, who will bring to light the things now hidden in darkness and will disclose the purposes of the heart. Then each one will receive his commendation from God.

BobRyan said:
Each one does not receive his reward until the Rev 20 judgment because the saints get their reward at the resurrection 1 Thess 4:13-18, appearing Rev 19, and rapture of the church... but the wicked do not all get their reward until the end of Rev 20 at the end of the 1000 years.

Bob, that doesn't help your argument. If the purposes of the heart are revealed at His coming, and then each receives his reward, that means the purposes of the heart are not revealed at the earlier IJ you posit.

Not until His coming are the purposes revealed. So whether you see it compressed or not, it starts with His coming and goes from there. Judgment is not to be pronounced before that time:

1Co 4:5 Therefore do not pronounce judgment before the time, before the Lord comes, who will bring to light the things now hidden in darkness and will disclose the purposes of the heart. Then each one will receive his commendation from God.

Now we "cut to the chase" in this post
That is the real heart of the matter - your own beliefs leave you in a self-conflicted position.

I am not in a conflicted position. All of the revealing of secrets, appearing before the judgment seat, giving accounts, etc. start at His coming, and not before. You are conflicted because you refuse Scriptures such as Matthew 7 that show professed believers being judged, making response, and then being pointed to their record AT Jesus' coming:

Mat 7:22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’
Mat 7:23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

You reject the text of the parable of the talents where they give account, and then are judged based on their record, all after His coming:

Mat 25:14 “For it will be like a man going on a journey, who called his servants and entrusted to them his property.

Mat 25:19 Now after a long time the master of those servants came and settled accounts with them.
Mat 25:20 And he who had received the five talents came forward, bringing five talents more, saying, ‘Master, you delivered to me five talents; here, I have made five talents more.’
Mat 25:21 His master said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant. You have been faithful over a little; I will set you over much. Enter into the joy of your master.’
Mat 25:22 And he also who had the two talents came forward, saying, ‘Master, you delivered to me two talents; here, I have made two talents more.’
Mat 25:23 His master said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant. You have been faithful over a little; I will set you over much. Enter into the joy of your master.’
Mat 25:24 He also who had received the one talent came forward, saying, ‘Master, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you did not sow, and gathering where you scattered no seed,
Mat 25:25 so I was afraid, and I went and hid your talent in the ground. Here, you have what is yours.’
Mat 25:26 But his master answered him, ‘You wicked and slothful servant! You knew that I reap where I have not sown and gather where I scattered no seed?
Mat 25:27 Then you ought to have invested my money with the bankers, and at my coming I should have received what was my own with interest.
Mat 25:28 So take the talent from him and give it to him who has the ten talents.
Mat 25:29 For to everyone who has will more be given, and he will have an abundance. But from the one who has not, even what he has will be taken away.
Mat 25:30 And cast the worthless servant into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’

You reference the bowing, kneeling, giving account, confessing etc. as being later for the righteous, but it must be after Jesus' coming because those things can't happen at an IJ that they do not know when it occurs.

In short, any time you place the two resurrections, the judging of the righteous happens at Jesus' coming, and that is when the purposes of the heart are revealed, and light is brought to the things now hidden in darkness:

1Co 4:5 Therefore do not pronounce judgment before the time, before the Lord comes, who will bring to light the things now hidden in darkness and will disclose the purposes of the heart. Then each one will receive his commendation from God.

tall73 · Oct 22, 2021

BobRyan said:
You find the pre-advent judgment in Dan 7, 2 Cor 5:10 and Rom 2 - but you do not find all the combined details in each chapter -- in any one chapter.

I have made that point a few times -- and I also point out that your own views on the resurrection in 1 Thess 4 and Rev 20 -- likely leave you stuck having to admit to this as well.

Why would my view leave me stuck? None of the judgments on the righteous happen until Jesus' comes. They can't because the coming is the timing of it:

1Co 4:5 Therefore do not pronounce judgment before the time, before the Lord comes, who will bring to light the things now hidden in darkness and will disclose the purposes of the heart. Then each one will receive his commendation from God.

Moreover, there are no details of the IJ in Daniel 7 because it is ruled out by non-professed believers being judged. So it is not a matter of only some things there. There are things that rule it out.

And it is also ruled out by the plain timing of the text above where the purposes of the heart and the hidden things are revealed AT Jesus' coming, not before.

The problem is not just multiple texts to give the full picture, but parts of the texts that cannot fit Ellen White's picture at all. Non-professed believers being judged in Daniel 7 means it is not her IJ.

And Jesus saying things are revealed at His coming, rules out the IJ timing you posit in Daniel 7, though it doesn't say anything about individual case judgment.

Dan 7 includes the 1260 years of the dark ages and all persecution of the saints going right up until the 2nd coming. In Dan 7 we see judgment executed on the wicked that remain at the end of time - but the Dan 7:9-10 judgment of the saints (not ON the saints) -- is specifically about the saints according to Dan 7:22 and even according to you -

So we can rule out the judgment scene of the beast, etc. being Ellen White's IJ because it involves non-professed believers.

And the judgment of the saints in Daniel 7:22 is in a statement that reaches even beyond the second coming to the time when the saints possess the kingdom.

Dan 7:22 until the Ancient of Days came, and judgment was given for the saints of the Most High, and the time came when the saints possessed the kingdom.

So it is useless for trying to pinpoint your timing pre-second coming, and also is showing ruling in their favor as a group, not individual cases.

And the judgment on the non-professed believers rules out this being the scenario of Ellen White.

tall73 · Oct 23, 2021

BobRyan said:
That leaves you stuck with only the saints. And Rev 20 leaves you stuck with "only the wicked" in the second resurrection.

This means that even in your own view - before any saints can be resurrected to do anything at all... to account for anything at all "in person" they must first have gone through the Dan 7 pre-advent judgment to see if they even are saints.. otherwise who is going to be resurrected at the 2nd coming - all mankind? then sort out who are saints and kill everyone else???

That is quite strange reasoning.

In fact, your own view has a similar problem for you. If the purpose of the IJ is to decide the cases of the professed believers in God to the satisfaction of the onlooking universes, then how do they know who the professed believers of God are without a pre-pre-advent judgment? How can they only look at them without first determining who is part of them?

Of course, the answer is that the onlooking universe is hardly as confused as you are on the subject. Jesus knows His sheep. And their names are in the book of life. Jesus can raise His faithful followers at His coming. And He can divide those who are there at the time as well, and judge.

And we see Him judging at that time in many texts that have been pointed out to you. That is why things start to be revealed (even to those onlooking intelligences) when Jesus comes...and reveals this hidden things.

1Co 4:5 Therefore do not pronounce judgment before the time, before the Lord comes, who will bring to light the things now hidden in darkness and will disclose the purposes of the heart. Then each one will receive his commendation from God.

Your own answer leaves you stuck with the same answer you claim only Ellen White could know.

In fact it does not. My own answer is that Jesus knows His own, their names are written in heaven, and AT His coming He reveals the secrets of the heart. Whether you see this happening all at once (as some do given Revelation's symbolic content and various texts that suggest the resurrections happen at the same time in other contexts), or whether you see them separated by 1k years, as per Revelation, makes no difference on this point. The secrets are revealed at Jesus' coming. And even the IJ doesn't address how they know which to review who are the "professed followers" unless of course they have to trust Jesus on that as well.

But the timing is said to be at His coming, whether immediate for both, or spread out, it all starts then.

1Co 4:5 Therefore do not pronounce judgment before the time, before the Lord comes, who will bring to light the things now hidden in darkness and will disclose the purposes of the heart. Then each one will receive his commendation from God.

Judgment is not pronounced before the Lord comes, and brings to light things hidden and discloses purposes of the heart--not at the IJ.

Mat 7:22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’
Mat 7:23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

People give an account before God, and He points them to their record of lawlessness.

Mat 25:14 “For it will be like a man going on a journey, who called his servants and entrusted to them his property.

Mat 25:19 Now after a long time the master of those servants came and settled accounts with them.
Mat 25:20 And he who had received the five talents came forward, bringing five talents more, saying, ‘Master, you delivered to me five talents; here, I have made five talents more.’
Mat 25:21 His master said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant. You have been faithful over a little; I will set you over much. Enter into the joy of your master.’
Mat 25:22 And he also who had the two talents came forward, saying, ‘Master, you delivered to me two talents; here, I have made two talents more.’
Mat 25:23 His master said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant. You have been faithful over a little; I will set you over much. Enter into the joy of your master.’
Mat 25:24 He also who had received the one talent came forward, saying, ‘Master, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you did not sow, and gathering where you scattered no seed,
Mat 25:25 so I was afraid, and I went and hid your talent in the ground. Here, you have what is yours.’
Mat 25:26 But his master answered him, ‘You wicked and slothful servant! You knew that I reap where I have not sown and gather where I scattered no seed?
Mat 25:27 Then you ought to have invested my money with the bankers, and at my coming I should have received what was my own with interest.
Mat 25:28 So take the talent from him and give it to him who has the ten talents.
Mat 25:29 For to everyone who has will more be given, and he will have an abundance. But from the one who has not, even what he has will be taken away.
Mat 25:30 And cast the worthless servant intothe outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’

They give an account and receive their rewards AFTER He returns form the journey.

Mat 25:31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne.
Mat 25:32 Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.
Mat 25:33 And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left.
Mat 25:34 Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
Mat 25:35 For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me,
Mat 25:36 I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.’
Mat 25:37 Then the righteous will answer him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink?
Mat 25:38 And when did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you?
Mat 25:39 And when did we see you sick or in prison and visit you?’
Mat 25:40 And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.’
Mat 25:41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
Mat 25:42 For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink,
Mat 25:43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’
Mat 25:44 Then they also will answer, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to you?’
Mat 25:45 Then he will answer them, saying, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’
Mat 25:46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

Jesus judges from His throne when the Son of Man comes in His glory, confronting them with their record.

Rom 14:10 Why do you pass judgment on your brother? Or you, why do you despise your brother? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God;
Rom 14:11 for it is written, “As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.”
Rom 14:12 So then each of us will give an account of himself to God

Every knee bows, every tongue confesses, everyone gives an account--that can only happen after His coming, as we are not aware of our case being up in the IJ.

2Co 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil.

Each receives what is due before the judgment seat. That can only happen after Jesus' coming as rewards are not given before.

And Dan 7:22 says it is "passed in favor of the saints" as the text says.

And even that extends beyond the second coming:

Dan 7:22 until the Ancient of Days came, and judgment was given for the saints of the Most High, and the time came when the saints possessed the kingdom.

that is how there can be the "first resurrection" event of 1 Thess 4:13-18 and Rev 20:1-5 --- of just the saints.
This is irrefutable and that means it negates your entire argument to this point.

Of course it doesn't Bob. The IJ already has the problem of how you know who the professed believers are.

But the case of the true believers is even easier because their names are in the book of life.

And as James White said before he decided that Jesus was taking too long to come back and went with the IJ explanation:

James White's and Joseph Bates' writings in book: 'A Word to the Little Flock'

It is not necessary that the final sentence should be given before the first resurrection, as some have taught; for the names of the saints are written in heaven, and Jesus, and the angels will certainly know who to raise, and gather to the New Jerusalem.

James was right the first time.

Jesus raises those who are His. And He judges all people after His coming, whether one sees that as happening all at once with the righteous and the wicked, or separately. The judgment texts still all point to after Jesus' coming.

This is what the Bible says.

The Bible says NOTHING about Jesus needing the IJ to know who to raise! But it does say:

Joh 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me.

Luk 10:20 Nevertheless, do not rejoice in this, that the spirits are subject to you, but rejoice that your names are written in heaven.”

1Co 4:5 Therefore do not pronounce judgment before the time, before the Lord comes, who will bring to light the things now hidden in darkness and will disclose the purposes of the heart. Then each one will receive his commendation from God.

tall73 · Oct 23, 2021

BobRyan said:
Jesus' coming in 2 Pet 3 encompasses both what SDA's call the "second coming" in Rev 19 and also what everyone else calls "The second coming" where Christ reigns on Earth (that we both know is in Rev 20). That combination "reveals" to all on earth the results of the Dan 7 pre-advent judgment as well as the judgment that happens during the 1000 years in Rev 20:2-5.

More like both together reveal and happen AT His coming, not before, as already mentioned in the various posts above, and summarized here:

1Co 4:5 Therefore do not pronounce judgment before the time, before the Lord comes, who will bring to light the things now hidden in darkness and will disclose the purposes of the heart. Then each one will receive his commendation from God.1Co 4:5 Therefore do not pronounce judgment before the time, before the Lord comes, who will bring to light the things now hidden in darkness and will disclose the purposes of the heart. Then each one will receive his commendation from God.

It is not in the IJ that the purposes of the heart are revealed. But at His coming. The text is quite clear.

you are skipping over details and it is leaving you with conflicted statements.

In fact, I am not conflicted. You are skipping over the many texts that indicate that these judgments happen at Jesus' coming, not before.

tall73 · Oct 23, 2021

AdamjEdgar said:
So is the issue here the idea of judgment, or that there are more than one of them?

I have no issue with judgment. I have no issue with their being more than one judgment. There are temporal judgments by God and have been throughout time. There are judgments on nations, and have been throughout time.

And there will be judgments on every person at the end. Some see this happening all at one time with the righteous and wicked resurrected at once (usually a view held by those who don't see a literal 1k years). And there are those who think that it will be separated by 1k years. The issue is that the Bible pictures these happening in person, at Jesus' coming, in many texts. Each gives account, each bows, each confesses, the secrets things are revealed. But this is all starting at His coming:

1Co 4:5 Therefore do not pronounce judgment before the time, before the Lord comes, who will bring to light the things now hidden in darkness and will disclose the purposes of the heart. Then each one will receive his commendation from God.1Co 4:5 Therefore do not pronounce judgment before the time, before the Lord comes, who will bring to light the things now hidden in darkness and will disclose the purposes of the heart. Then each one will receive his commendation from God.

When i read Daniel 7 this is what see at first glance (without trying to do anything with it)

1. Daniel 7:7,8 - rise of the fourth beast with a little horn sprouting up dislodging 3 others...it has a face and mouth and is speaking words of arrogance

Why did you start in verse 7? The vision starts in verse 7, and those beasts are judged as well. And they are not professed followers of God as Ellen White describes in her IJ.

2. Daniel 7:9-12 - The Ancient of Days takes his seat, the court is convened and the books are opened...the fourth beast is slain, its body thrown into the lake of fire, however, the other beasts, although losing their dominion, are granted an extension of life for a season and a time

Yes.

3. Daniel 7:13,14 - The Son of Man comes in the clouds of Heaven, after the redeemed are translated back to heaven, He is then lead into the presence of the Ancient of Days and given dominion, and glory and kingship.

4. Daniel 7: 15:28 - description of the future kingdoms and the second coming of Christ.

5. Daniel 7:26 The little horn is destroyed

26But the court will convene, and his dominion will be taken away and completely destroyed forever.

why is there an issue with the IJ exactly? It seems to me that when i look at the entities being discussed, they have an awful lot in common with the same, or very similar entities spoken of elsewhere (such as other chapters in Daniel and also the book of Revelation) concerning end times.

You did not note any picture of individual judgment on professed believers in your notes.

There is judgment prior to the second coming on powers, and has been through time. Daniel 2 notes He sets up kingdoms and takes them down.

But you have not shown the one you claim. And a number of texts indicate judgment when Jesus comes.

Can we just back track a minute and rather than just thrash out to and fro over individual parts of doctrine...

For those who do not believe in the IJ, If the 1844 date is not the commencement of the IJ, would that not place us in a similar position of error to that of William Miller? It seems to me that the most obvious interpretation of Daniel 7, 8, and 9 if one does not believe in the IJ is in one of two ways:

1. deny day/year prophecy...that stops the problem in its tracks but then appears to me to give support to the return of Jesus in A.D 70 doctrine

2. that Jesus must return in 1844 even though Jesus himself said, only the Father knows the day and hour of the second coming...clearly the mistake the Millerites made!

You haven't even begun to go through all the steps to get to 1844 as a date, let alone the interpretation you propose. And Daniel 8 has an even bigger context problem for what Adventists claim than chapter 7.

i wonder if you could provide a short timeline (just point form) for readers here that explains the non IJ position from the decree to go and rebuild Jerusalem by Artexerxes right through until 1844

I don't think the dates would terminate in 1844. You might want to explain how they do.

( i am not intimately familiar with the non IJ position in its entirety. Des paper is 900 pages long and I havent read that far yet...and i think others would also interested in seeing that timeline)

I don't posit the same timeline as Des. I don't agree with the Antiochus view as he does either. If fact, even if you take the papacy view of the Adventists, chapter 8 still presents context problems we can discuss if you want. But we will need to get into the chapter itself and that hasn't started in this thread.

As for chapter 7 the statement of judgment in favor of the saints is stated in conjunction with the inheriting of the kingdom, which goes beyond the second coming:

Dan 7:22 until the Ancient of Days came, and judgment was given for the saints of the Most High, and the time came when the saints possessed the kingdom.

So I see no reason to posit this is an IJ here, and the other texts note judgment when Jesus comes.

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