Cornell University - Vaccination not Preventing Infection

Bradskii

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I never said that.

I gave you more than enough info on Kahnemann to show you that he is considered to be one of the leading experts in his field, if not the leading expert in his field. Not just in the US. But on the planet. And your response was 'Lol, so now scientists are always right?'

My response was to suggest to you that if you can't consider this guy to be trustworthy then you're better off not reading anything by anyone who might be less credentialled. Which, when you come to think of it, is almost everyone else.

Thanks for your input.
 
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renniks

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I gave you more than enough info on Kahnemann to show you that he is considered to be one of the leading experts in his field, if not the leading expert in his field. Not just in the US. But on the planet. And your response was 'Lol, so now scientists are always right?'

My response was to suggest to you that if you can't consider this guy to be trustworthy then you're better off not reading anything by anyone who might be less credentialled. Which, when you come to think of it, is almost everyone else.

Thanks for your input.
Are you really missing the point or just ignoring it?
 
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whatbogsends

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If you give me a while I'll dig out my list of Total Quacks Who Have Won The Nobel Prize.

I take it that you believe we should listen to people who've won the Nobel Prize regarding information in their field of study?
 
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RestoreTheJoy

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If you give me a while I'll dig out my list of Total Quacks Who Have Won The Nobel Prize.

But let's skip that. One good way of checking a scientist's bona fides is to see how many times his papers have been cited.
Some less enlightened would argue Linus Pauling who won two (unshared) Nobel Prizes was a quack. Really, he was just ahead of his time, sharing information that the establishment didn't yet recognize as true. Cited tens of thousands of time. 16,000 just for one book, last I looked.

It happens.

I suspect it is happening now to others who are courageously, at great risk, speaking out. Time will tell.
 
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As far as I understand it.

A vaccinated person is 8 times less likely (than a person without immunity) to get infected and pass the disease on to others
A vaccinated person is 11 times less likely to require hospital treatment.

what evidence do you have that they are 8 times less likely to spread it ? new study from the University of California, Davis, Genome Center, UC San Francisco and the Chan Zuckerberg Biohub shows no significant difference in viral load between vaccinated and unvaccinated people who tested positive for the delta variant of SARS-CoV-2. It also found no significant difference between infected people with or without symptoms. https://www.ucdavis.edu/health/covi...ar-between-vaccinated-and-unvaccinated-people
 
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Bradskii

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I take it that you believe we should listen to people who've won the Nobel Prize regarding information in their field of study?

The prize is simply a recognition of his contribution. It shows he is not 'a quack'.
 
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hedrick

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what evidence do you have that they are 8 times less likely to spread it ? new study from the University of California, Davis, Genome Center, UC San Francisco and the Chan Zuckerberg Biohub shows no significant difference in viral load between vaccinated and unvaccinated people who tested positive for the delta variant of SARS-CoV-2. It also found no significant difference between infected people with or without symptoms. https://www.ucdavis.edu/health/covi...ar-between-vaccinated-and-unvaccinated-people
The key phrase here is "infected". Vaccinated people are less likely to be infected, and the infect on average doesn't last as long.
 
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Bobber

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The key phrase here is "infected". Vaccinated people are less likely to be infected, and the infect on average doesn't last as long.
Can anyone here tell me in current numbers how many moderna vaccines have been given as compared to Pizier? And which one of the two have better results? We're booked to have our first moderna vaccine in a number of days and when I search for current numbers given all that comes up is outdated information. And which ones have better results.

Those choosing not to believe anything is better trust me I've heard all those arguments but I want to hear what the other side says about my questions.
 
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RestoreTheJoy

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The key phrase here is "infected". Vaccinated people are less likely to be infected, and the infect on average doesn't last as long.
Source on that? Both can be infected; both can transmit or contract the virus.
 
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hedrick

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Can anyone here tell me in current numbers how many moderna vaccines have been given as compared to Pizier? And which one of the two have better results? We're booked to have our first moderna vaccine in a number of days and when I search for current numbers given all that comes up is outdated information. And which ones have better results.

Those choosing not to believe anything is better trust me I've heard all those arguments but I want to hear what the other side says about my questions.
From COVID Data Tracker, doses. Note that it takes two doses to be fully vaccinated for the first two.

Pfizer 243M
Moderna: 155M
J&J:15M

Moderna has shown somewhat higher effectiveness than Pfizer, and less decline over time. J&J is significantly less effective than either, probably because it's given as just one dose.

If you are over 65, you should plan to get a booster at 6 months for Pfizer or Moderna. Anyone getting J&J should plan to get a booster at 2 months.

The justification for boosters given by the manufacturers was different:
* Pfizer gave data for those over 65 showing a decline in effectiveness over time.
* Moderna gave data showing simply that immunity increased after a booster, independent of time. There's not clear data for Moderna showing a decline. And the increase in effectiveness wasn't very impressive for under 65. My guess as a non-medical person is that people over 65 can benefit from a booster simply because older people don't react as strongly to vaccines in general. That's why we get larger doses for flu shots.
* J&J showed a large increase in immunity for everyone. Some FDA person said that it really should have been two doses all along.
 
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sfs

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Subduction Zone

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Source on that? Both can be infected; both can transmit or contract the virus.
As you can see by the response given to you by @sfs the odds of getting infected in the first place are lower with the vaccine. So even if it did not have the other positive attributes that alone would mean that the virus is spread less by vaccinated people than by unvaccinated people. It is why mandates ordering certain employees to get the vaccine or lose their jobs are both legal and moral.

Both groups being able to get the virus does not mean that both groups spread it at the same rate.
 
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Bobber

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From https://www.cnbc.com/2021/10/23/cov...igible-for-pfizer-moderna-and-jjs-shots-.html
For US
Pfizer: 37 M
Moderna: 39 M
J&J: 13 M

Moderna has shown somewhat higher effectiveness than Pfizer, and less decline over time. J&J is significantly less effective than either, probably because it's given as just one dose.

If you are over 65, you should plan to get a booster at 6 months for Pfizer or Moderna. Anyone getting J&J should plan to get a booster at 2 months.

The justification for boosters given by the manufacturers was different:
* Pfizer gave data for those over 65 showing a decline in effectiveness over time.
* Moderna gave data showing simply that immunity increased after a booster, independent of time. There's not clear data for Moderna showing a decline. And the increase in effectiveness wasn't very impressive for under 65. My guess as a non-medical person is that people over 65 can benefit from a booster simply because older people don't react as strongly to vaccines in general. That's why we get larger doses for flu shots.
* J&J showed a large increase in immunity for everyone. Some FDA person said that it really should have been two doses all along.
OK Hedrick thanks for the information. Much appreciated.
 
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RestoreTheJoy

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RestoreTheJoy

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As you can see by the response given to you by @sfs the odds of getting infected in the first place are lower with the vaccine. So even if it did not have the other positive attributes that alone would mean that the virus is spread less by vaccinated people than by unvaccinated people. It is why mandates ordering certain employees to get the vaccine or lose their jobs are both legal and moral.

Both groups being able to get the virus does not mean that both groups spread it at the same rate.
The "unvaccinated" also includes a huge group of "exposed and immune now", which of course, is not broken out anywhere. So no..."the unvaccinated" aren't spreading it if they actually fall into the latter category.
 
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sfs

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"With B.1.617.2, infections occurring after two vaccinations had similar peak viral burden as those in unvaccinated individuals. SARS-CoV-2 vaccination still reduces new infections, but effectiveness and attenuation of peak viral burden are reduced with B.1.617.2.
You asked for a source showing that the vaccine protects against infection (and therefore transmission). That's what I provided.
 
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hedrick

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OK Hedrick thanks for the information. Much appreciated.
I took that from a current story, but the data can't be current. It totals about 100M. About 500 M doses have been given.

This has current data: COVID Data Tracker The following is doses. Note that it take two doses for a person to be fully vaccinated for the first two (and honestly, for J&J as well, it now appears).

Pfizer 243M
Moderna: 155M
J&J:15M
 
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RestoreTheJoy

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You asked for a source showing that the vaccine protects against infection (and therefore transmission). That's what I provided.
Well if all who are infected have the same viral levels, all are contagious at that time.
 
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Subduction Zone

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The "unvaccinated" also includes a huge group of "exposed and immune now", which of course, is not broken out anywhere. So no..."the unvaccinated" aren't spreading it if they actually fall into the latter category.

They are still more apt to spread the virus than the vaccinated. Those that have officially have been infected is roughly 45 million. Even if you double that to 90 million you still have a sizeable population that the last time that I checked was on the order of at least 6 times more likely to be infected. Until the unvaccinated is a rather small percentage they will still be the major threat.
 
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Well if all who are infected have the same viral levels, all are contagious at that time.
What? The vaccinated tend to be contagious for a shorter period of time. They may hit the same peak, but that is only one factor to consider.

Also people are probably more apt to spread the disease before they hit their peak. People are most contagious when they are ill but do not know it yet. People that know that they are ill tend to stay at home. They are not contagious if they do not see anyone. It is when people have it but don't know it that they are the greatest risk to others.
 
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