When was Satan bound?

keras said:

Your avatar is still ugly and distracting.

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I agree.

keras said:

I have never put anyone on ignore.
Doing that means your rebuttals and opinions just don't cut it.

Anyone who believes in a rapture to heaven, MUST provide scriptures that prove such an event. Who, when and why.

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He didn't say anything about a rapture to heaven, he simply referred to our being caught up "in the air" to meet the Lord which is what Paul references in 1 Thess 4:13-17. You interpreted his words about as well as you interpret scripture (not well at all).

keras said:

Totally disingenuous!
The AMill belief makes the plainly stated 1000 year period to come after Jesus has physically Returned, into some indeterminate time.
And the nonsense of "highly symbolic' and 'non literal' exegesis of Rev 20, makes AMill's just people who play fast and loose with scripture.

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Interpreting something differently than you is not a case of playing fast and loose with scripture. All you ever do is make false accusations. That's all you have. You have no convincing argument to support your view and you have no convincing argument to refute Amil. So, all you're left with is to make personal insults.

And to do that with Revelation, is a very serious matter that carries severe penalties.

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Do you think I don't know what you're referring to here? I know that you think the following passage applies to us:

Revelation 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: 19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

This passage has nothing to do with misinterpreting the words of the prophecy in the book of Revelation. If that was the case then we would all be in trouble, including you and me, because none of us interpret everything in the book exactly right.

Instead, it has to do with people purposely twisting the words of the book by adding to it and taking away from it in order to make it say what they want it to say. Amils are not doing that! That is a nasty false accusation on your part.

We see other scripture that speaks of Christ reigning now, His followers being priests in His kingdom now, one judgment day, one resurrection day, and all unbelievers being destroyed on the day He returns and we interpret Revelation 20 accordingly. That is not a case of adding to or taking away from the book, it's a case of interpreting scripture with scripture.

Spiritual Jew said:

Interpreting something differently than you is not a case of playing fast and loose with scripture. All you ever do is make false accusations. That's all you have. You have no convincing argument to support your view and you have no convincing argument to refute Amil. So, all you're left with is to make personal insults.

Do you think I don't know what you're referring to here? I know that you think the following passage applies to us:

Revelation 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: 19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

This passage has nothing to do with misinterpreting the words of the prophecy in the book of Revelation. If that was the case then we would all be in trouble, including you and me, because none of us interpret everything in the book exactly right.

Instead, it has to do with people purposely twisting the words of the book by adding to it and taking away from it in order to make it say what they want it to say. Amils are not doing that! That is a nasty false accusation on your part.

We see other scripture that speaks of Christ reigning now, His followers being priests in His kingdom now, one judgment day, one resurrection day, and all unbelievers being destroyed on the day He returns and we interpret Revelation 20 accordingly. That is not a case of adding to or taking away from the book, it's a case of interpreting scripture with scripture.

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So true!

Douggg said:

Like most things in the bible, context has to be considered. Running to and fro, in the context of Amos, indicates that they are desperate. It is describing the condition of the people.

Differently, in Daniel 12:4 running to and fro is characterizing the time of the end, in conjunction with knowledge increased. It doesn't indicate desperation.

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As usual, you're not allowing scripture to interpret itself for you.

Amos 8:12 And they shall wander from sea to sea, and from the north even to the east, they shall run to and fro to seek the word of the Lord, and shall not find it.

No one is saying that this verse has the same exact context and timing as Daniel 12:4, but what we can determine from this verse is that running to and fro has nothing to do with people traveling around the world by cars and planes as you think Daniel 12:4 is talking about. Clearly, running to and fro in this verse has nothing to do with literally traveling from place to place, but has to do with seeking the word of the Lord.

Why can you not acknowledge that Daniel 12:4 can mean something similar to that instead of having anything to do with people traveling in cars and planes? Why is interpreting scripture with scripture not something you're interested in doing? It makes things a lot easier. You should try it sometime.

Spiritual Jew said:

He didn't say anything about a rapture to heaven, he simply referred to our being caught up "in the air" to meet the Lord which is what Paul references in 1 Thess 4:13-17. You interpreted his words about as well as you interpret scripture (not well at all).

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You all really do not like the fact Paradise has been opened and "all" since the Cross have forever been with the Lord in Paradise. Which is apparently also a temple of God.

Was there an alter in the Garden, Paradise on earth, prior to Adam's disobedience?

Obviously God set one up to allow for the first offering which was also how God clothed them, before they were essentially eternally separated from God. Abel offered animal sacrifices on that alter. Cain brought a "vegan" offering.

Cain was evidently communinist thinking what he offered was "ok". He shunned capitalism, which in trading with Abel's livestock, Cain could have brought the proper sacrifice. The Garden was still the temple where these sacrifices took place. Even Jesus associated the blood from Abel to the last priest shed in Herod's temple as falling on the generation that would place Him on the Cross. The temple in Paradise is mirrored by the stone temple that was given to the house of Jacob via David and Solomon. Which was taken away several times, because of their unbelief, and wickedness.

Yes the temple in Paradise is mirrored on earth since the Cross, within each heart of the believers on earth. Even then that earthly temple can grow cold and fall out of use.

But you all seem to forget the temple called Paradise, has been vibrant and full of non stop activity that will continue without ceasing, even after the Second Coming. What happens on earth while Jesus Christ is here at the Second Coming, will not affect that temple in Paradise. Paradise is not going to "empty out" at any time.

The Second Coming is for the firstfruits of an earthly reign. As Paradise will be complete at the Second Coming, and no longer accepting Adam's redeemed offspring.

Confusion over this 1000 years seems to abound. There is precedent found in the Torah. The 5 books God gave to Moses on Mt. Sinai. Yet most here reject that part of God's Word, looking solely at the prophets for guidance and interpretation. 2 Thessalonians 2 is Paul pointing out how Satan has led all away from the Torah. Not just the keeping of the Law, but about creation, and God at work before Israel came out of Egypt. Modern scholars even question Moses and this Exodus as even happening. Just some primitive mythology concocted by some backwards people under Greek authority. Stolen from Babylonian mythology around 500BC.

Now some "scoffers" even in this forum claim the Day to 1000 year; creation week format is just human imagination. They are in the same boat as if nothing has changed for thousands, and even millions of years since the "big bang". They reject that the Second Coming is tied to Adam's offspring being punished with sin and death from the decay of sin for 6 Days as in 6000 years.

They do not Remember the Sabbath Day, not Saturday. Saturday is just the day of memorial. Each week we are to observe a time out in memorial to the literal Sabbath Day. Those who reject the Day of the Lord, as not being set apart and Holy, will not even be punished for doing so. It is not a sin to forget or deny. We are not under the Law, but under Grace. I still do not see the point in some going way above any sensibility to prove a future cannot happen, because they feel so strongly in their thinking that it cannot happen.

It is a matter of opinion on both sides of the issue. Opinions can get in the way of the facts, despite one's opinionated objections.

Spiritual Jew said:

Instead, it has to do with people purposely twisting the words of the book by adding to it and taking away from it in order to make it say what they want it to say. Amils are not doing that! That is a nasty false accusation on your part.

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Stating an opinion as fact has changed the original record.

Many claim no direct chronological order. Then they turn to an opinion called recapitulation. Recapitulation is not the inspired intent of John's writings. It is a man made interpretative change in the intent of the text.

Holding to any interpretion outside of what was literally written can lead to errors in interpretation. Obviously many do not see it that way. That is also their opinion, to allow themselves to freely accept their own opinions on what was written.

Timtofly said:

Stating an opinion as fact has changed the original record.

Many claim no direct chronological order. Then they turn to an opinion called recapitulation. Recapitulation is not the inspired intent of John's writings. It is a man made interpretative change in the intent of the text.

Holding to any interpretion outside of what was literally written can lead to errors in interpretation. Obviously many do not see it that way. That is also their opinion, to allow themselves to freely accept their own opinions on what was written.

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According to you. But Revelation and multiple Scripture proves your opinion to be mistaken.

Timtofly said:

You all really do not like the fact Paradise has been opened and "all" since the Cross have forever been with the Lord in Paradise. Which is apparently also a temple of God.

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What are you talking about? Why would I not like the fact that the souls of the dead in Christ are all in paradise (the third heaven) with Christ right now?

What does this even have to do with what I said in my post, though? I mentioned that we will be gathered to Christ "in the air" when He comes as Paul taught in 1 Thess 4:13-17. Do you disagree with that?

Timtofly said:

Stating an opinion as fact has changed the original record.

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Who stated an opinion as fact? Do you ever have any idea of what you're talking about?

Many claim no direct chronological order. Then they turn to an opinion called recapitulation. Recapitulation is not the inspired intent of John's writings. It is a man made interpretative change in the intent of the text.

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So, I guess you think that the seventh trumpet already sounded before the birth of Christ then? Because the seventh trumpet is described in Revelation 10 and 11 and the birth and ascension of Christ is referenced in Revelation 12. Obviously, no one thinks that the seventh trumpet sounded even before Christ was born, so I guess your chronological method of interpreting the book of Revelation isn't very sound, is it.

Holding to any interpretion outside of what was literally written can lead to errors in interpretation.

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LOL! Do me a favor. If you see a woman sitting on many waters riding on a beast with seven heads and ten horns, let me know. Because at that point we will know that Revelation 17 is being fulfilled before our eyes.

sovereigngrace said:

According to you. But Revelation and multiple Scripture proves your opinion to be mistaken.

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Recapitulation is an inspired of God, revealed by the Holy Spirit stated in Scripture, fact?

That is your claim. Not mine. I have no additional opinion to add to a normal reading of Revelation. Reading comprehension is a mistake? Your interpretation is not a mistake? That would mean you are correcting the Word as written, and claiming a private interpretation is the correct way to "understand".

Spiritual Jew said:

What are you talking about? Why would I not like the fact that the souls of the dead in Christ are all in paradise (the third heaven) with Christ right now?

What does this even have to do with what I said in my post, though? I mentioned that we will be gathered to Christ "in the air" when He comes as Paul taught in 1 Thess 4:13-17. Do you disagree with that?

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Because they have more than souls. Jesus is not a soul walking around in Paradise. Why would Jesus have a physical body in a physical place, but no one else? They were only souls in Abraham's bosom, unless you think they had physical bodies then, but not now. The Cross changed all that. The Cross opened up Paradise as a physical place with a physical body.

That is the point you deny.

Jesus was the physical resurrection and life. In Abraham's bosom, they already had spiritual life. They were not in torment, and the Lord God was still there, as claimed by David in the Psalms. Paradise was still off-limits until the physical death on the Cross.

The graves were opened and physical bodies came out at the Cross. They were physically taken to heaven. Blessed are they who take part in the first, physical resurrection. Not condemned to physically dying again. That is the power of Christ being the Resurrection and the Life. Christ did not have to physically die the second time to enter Paradise. No one has to. Normally people do not live after a near death experience. But they certainly are not resurrected. They just maintain the same physical form until they do enter Paradise. In Paradise is the physical resurrection. The soul is afforded a permanent incorruptible physical body, given to them by God. Not a genetic copy of Adam's flesh and blood.

Timtofly said:

Because they have more than souls. Jesus is not a soul walking around in Paradise. Why would Jesus have a physical body in a physical place, but no one else?

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Because the last trumpet hasn't sounded yet (1 Corinthians 15:50-54). Paul said that believers are still waiting for the redemption of our bodies. That will happen when Christ returns at the last trumpet.

Romans 8:18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. 19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. 20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, 21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. 23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body. 24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for? 25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.

In this passage, Paul makes it very clear that the redemption of our bodies, which is what he wrote about in 1 Corinthians 15:22-56, will occur in the future and not immediately upon our physical bodily deaths as you believe. He clearly said this is something that we are hoping and waiting for. In 1 Corinthians 15:50-54 he makes it clear that this will happen at the last trumpet. It's ludicrous to think that the last trumpet has already sounded because it says at the last trumpet we will ALL be changed at the same time and put on incorruptible and immortal bodies.

If you think the last trumpet already sounded then tell me when that happened. Don't try to say it happened at the cross because Paul wrote 1 Corinthians after Christ's death on the cross and talked about the last trumpet sounding at some time in the future after he wrote that letter.

They were only souls in Abraham's bosom, unless you think they had physical bodies then, but not now. The Cross changed all that. The Cross opened up Paradise as a physical place with a physical body.

That is the point you deny.

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All I deny is that you have any idea of what you're talking about. I deny that you have any ability to back up your claims with scripture. It's no wonder that you don't reference any scripture while making your claims because there is none to support your claims.

Spiritual Jew said:

So, I guess you think that the seventh trumpet already sounded before the birth of Christ then? Because the seventh trumpet is described in Revelation 10 and 11 and the birth and ascension of Christ is referenced in Revelation 12. Obviously, no one thinks that the seventh trumpet sounded even before Christ was born, so I guess your chronological method of interpreting the book of Revelation isn't very sound, is it.

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I have stated several times that chapter 12 is an historical side note describing the attributes of the characters in the main chronology.

It is strange that when talking about chapters 19, 20, and 21, the biggest excuse is chapter 12.
Why not chapter 17 or 18?

The 7th Trumpet covers a whole week of days, not just a single blast. There is some background story to cover why it sounds for a full week. It also is interrupted and extends for 42 months. The 7th Trumpet cannot stop, until the one hour battle of Armageddon is over.

Yet the 7th Trumpet starts sounding 42 months and 8 days prior to the end of Armageddon.

That is why it takes chapters 10, 11, 12, 13, 15, 17, and 18 to cover the events of the 7th Trumpet.

Revelation 16 and 19 covers the 7 vials.

Spiritual Jew said:

Because the last trumpet hasn't sounded yet (1 Corinthians 15:50-54). Paul said that believers are still waiting for the redemption of our bodies. That will happen when Christ returns at the last trumpet.

Romans 8:18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. 19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. 20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, 21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. 23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body. 24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for? 25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.

In this passage, Paul makes it very clear that the redemption of our bodies, which is what he wrote about in 1 Corinthians 15:22-56, will occur in the future and not immediately upon our physical bodily deaths as you believe. He clearly said this is something that we are hoping and waiting for. In 1 Corinthians 15:50-54 he makes it clear that this will happen at the last trumpet. It's ludicrous to think that the last trumpet has already sounded because it says at the last trumpet we will ALL be changed at the same time and put on incorruptible and immortal bodies.

If you think the last trumpet already sounded then tell me when that happened. Don't try to say it happened at the cross because Paul wrote 1 Corinthians after Christ's death on the cross and talked about the last trumpet sounding at some time in the future after he wrote that letter.

All I deny is that you have any idea of what you're talking about. I deny that you have any ability to back up your claims with scripture. It's no wonder that you don't reference any scripture while making your claims because there is none to support your claims.

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Addressing only the issue of bodies, I think that the Christian souls in heaven have some sort of bodies, because they can be seen. It is likely that those bodies are transparent to a degree and perhaps not solid in nature, certainly not the resurrected, redeemed, transfigured, glorified bodies to come.

When Jesus died, it is said He gave up the ghost. Which, imo, is an indication of the body Jesus had when he went to the place of them who had died in the past.

When Jesus later appeared to the disciples, it was in a resurrected body, appearing like theirs, not yet glorified, but having supernatural qualities.

When John was called up to heaven in Revelation, he met Jesus in His Glorified body, as described in Revelation 1, which we will see Him like that when the rapture/resurrection takes place.

Timtofly said:

I have stated several times that chapter 12 is an historical side note describing the attributes of the characters in the main chronology.

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Why do you assume the rest of the book is all chronological when you acknowledge there is at least one example where it isn't? That makes no sense to me.

Timtofly said:

I have stated several times that chapter 12 is an historical side note describing the attributes of the characters in the main chronology.

It is strange that when talking about chapters 19, 20, and 21, the biggest excuse is chapter 12.
Why not chapter 17 or 18?

The 7th Trumpet covers a whole week of days, not just a single blast. There is some background story to cover why it sounds for a full week. It also is interrupted and extends for 42 months. The 7th Trumpet cannot stop, until the one hour battle of Armageddon is over.

Yet the 7th Trumpet starts sounding 42 months and 8 days prior to the end of Armageddon.

That is why it takes chapters 10, 11, 12, 13, 15, 17, and 18 to cover the events of the 7th Trumpet.

Revelation 16 and 19 covers the 7 vials.

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That is a total cop-out. The recaps are unquestionable.

Douggg said:

Addressing only the issue of bodies, I think that the Christian souls in heaven have some sort of bodies, because they can be seen. It is likely that those bodies are transparent to a degree and perhaps not solid in nature, certainly not the resurrected, redeemed, transfigured, glorified bodies to come.

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Okay. I disagree with the first part of what you said, but I hope we all agree on the part about our future glorified bodies to come. There certainly isn't any scripture to support your claim about the souls in heaven having bodies, but I guess there isn't any that specifically says otherwise, either. Anyway, it's not something worth arguing about.

When Jesus died, it is said He gave up the ghost. Which, imo, is an indication of the body Jesus had when he went to the place of them who had died in the past.

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What are you talking about? The body Jesus had was in the tomb after He died. Before Jesus gave up His spirit Jesus said that He would be with the thief on the cross in paradise (the third heaven) that day, so that is where His spirit went at that point.

When Jesus later appeared to the disciples, it was in a resurrected body, appearing like theirs, not yet glorified, but having supernatural qualities.

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Yeah. We all know this, of course.

When John was called up to heaven in Revelation, he met Jesus in His Glorified body, as described in Revelation 1, which we will see Him like that when the rapture/resurrection takes place.

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I don't think that description of Him in Revelation 1 is literal since it talks about Him standing in the midst of seven symbolic candlesticks holding seven symbolic stars with a symbolic double-edged sword coming out of His mouth. But, I don't doubt that He will be glorious and awe inspiring to look at. That will be a glorious day when we see Him as He is (1 John 3:2).

Spiritual Jew said:

In this passage, Paul makes it very clear that the redemption of our bodies, which is what he wrote about in 1 Corinthians 15:22-56, will occur in the future and not immediately upon our physical bodily deaths as you believe. He clearly said this is something that we are hoping and waiting for. In 1 Corinthians 15:50-54 he makes it clear that this will happen at the last trumpet. It's ludicrous to think that the last trumpet has already sounded because it says at the last trumpet we will ALL be changed at the same time and put on incorruptible and immortal bodies.

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You can wait for your body, but those already there are enjoying theirs per 2 Corinthians 5.

sovereigngrace said:

That is a total cop-out. The recaps are unquestionable.

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That is your opinion.