Question for Seventh Day Adventist

tall73 · May 27, 2021

BobRyan said:
1. I never said the details for the entire doctrine all come from one text. I don't know of any SDA source that says that. You might want to check your assumptions. Check out my first 3 posts on this thread to notice that we never claim "just one text has all the details. Or check my first 3 posts on the thread you started on this same subject for Adventists to address to see "more than one chapter" as the reference.

I am not saying all the details come from one text. I am saying that one of the key texts Adventists rely on is not even talking about what Adventists claim' It does not discuss judgment on individual believers. It pictures the activities of nations and the little horn and the judgment on those powers. And it shows the saints as a whole receiving the benefit of the judgment of those powers, and eventually inheriting the kingdom (which happens after the second coming.)

Just like Daniel 8 is stated to be speaking of the Day of Atonement, but instead the chapter is about nations and the little horn again, and the restoration of the sanctuary following the activities of the little horn.

2. Post May 14, 2021 #3 on this thread shows that Romans 2 is another text providing details for the doctrine of future judgment to the Bible writer's day.

Romans 2 shows investigation, indeed. But that happens at Jesus' coming.

Now how can you say all the texts give details, but you refuse to explain how a number of these texts show judgment in person, before Jesus' throne, at His coming?

Rom 2:16 on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus.

On that day, God judges the secrets of men.

1 Corinthians 4 shows when the secrets of the heart are revealed:

1Co 4:5 Therefore do not pronounce judgment before the time, before the Lord comes, who will bring to light the things now hidden in darkness and will disclose the purposes of the heart. Then each one will receive his commendation from God.

Other texts talk about believers giving an account at Jesus' coming, and being judged.

Mat 25:14 “For it will be like a man going on a journey, who called his servants and entrusted to them his property.
Mat 25:15 To one he gave five talents, to another two, to another one, to each according to his ability. Then he went away.
Mat 25:16 He who had received the five talents went at once and traded with them, and he made five talents more.
Mat 25:17 So also he who had the two talents made two talents more.
Mat 25:18 But he who had received the one talent went and dug in the ground and hid his master's money.
Mat 25:19 Now after a long time the master of those servants came and settled accounts with them.
Mat 25:20 And he who had received the five talents came forward, bringing five talents more, saying, ‘Master, you delivered to me five talents; here, I have made five talents more.’
Mat 25:21 His master said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant. You have been faithful over a little; I will set you over much. Enter into the joy of your master.’
Mat 25:22 And he also who had the two talents came forward, saying, ‘Master, you delivered to me two talents; here, I have made two talents more.’
Mat 25:23 His master said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant. You have been faithful over a little; I will set you over much. Enter into the joy of your master.’
Mat 25:24 He also who had received the one talent came forward, saying, ‘Master, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you did not sow, and gathering where you scattered no seed,
Mat 25:25 so I was afraid, and I went and hid your talent in the ground. Here, you have what is yours.’
Mat 25:26 But his master answered him, ‘You wicked and slothful servant! You knew that I reap where I have not sown and gather where I scattered no seed?
Mat 25:27 Then you ought to have invested my money with the bankers, and at my coming I should have received what was my own with interest.
Mat 25:28 So take the talent from him and give it to him who has the ten talents.
Mat 25:29 For to everyone who has will more be given, and he will have an abundance. But from the one who has not, even what he has will be taken away.
Mat 25:30 And cast the worthless servant into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’

Mat 25:31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne.
Mat 25:32 Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.
Mat 25:33 And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left.
Mat 25:34 Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
Mat 25:35 For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me,
Mat 25:36 I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.’
Mat 25:37 Then the righteous will answer him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink?
Mat 25:38 And when did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you?
Mat 25:39 And when did we see you sick or in prison and visit you?’
Mat 25:40 And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.’
Mat 25:41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
Mat 25:42 For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink,
Mat 25:43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’
Mat 25:44 Then they also will answer, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to you?’
Mat 25:45 Then he will answer them, saying, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’
Mat 25:46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

They appear before Him, He judges them, and some protest, but He presents the evidence against them. Then they receive their reward.

Rom 14:10 Why do you pass judgment on your brother? Or you, why do you despise your brother? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God;
Rom 14:11 for it is written, “As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.”
Rom 14:12 So then each of us will give an account of himself to God.

We bow
We confess
We give an account.

This is not the Adventist IJ where we don't even know when our name comes up. This is appearing before Christ in person for judgment.

hint - a review "of the details"

The review of the activities in the chapter is all of the beasts/nations, and little horn, which are then said to be judged. No individual judgment of the saints is pictured.

So a number of texts all speak to the subject "not just one".

However "in just" one you can get a lot of the detail - for example in Dan 7 a number of pre-advent investigative judgment details "spelled out" for the reader.

Yes, a number of texts you continue to not discuss, and which are presented to you each time to discuss, that show judgment by Christ at His coming.

And the details in Daniel 7 are about the activities of nations/powers/beasts, some of which are certainly not all professed believers in God, which means it doesn't fit the "details" spelled out by Ellen White.

Our interest is in the truth on that doctrine not "That every detail was or was not crammed into just one chapter"

Daniel 7 and 8 have been presented by Adventists as critical to their argument. But a number of folks even within the church have continued to note the chapters do not show what is claimed.

And a number of other texts show judgment before Jesus' judgment seat at His coming.

BobRyan · May 27, 2021

tall73 said:
I am not saying all the details come from one text. I am saying that one of the key texts Adventists rely on is not even talking about what Adventists claim'

Let's put that suggestion to the test - using this same thread - to see if it pans out.

BobRyan said:
Good questions

Since I actually am a Seventh-day Adventist - I am glad to address the subject from an SDA POV.

The "short form":

Pre-advent - Judgment in heaven that happens before the 2nd coming Dan 7:26-27.
Investigative Dan 7:9-10 - books are opened and myriads and myriads in heaven's courtroom are observing the facts being detailed.
Judgment passed in favor of the saints - Dan 7:22
some time After the 1260 years of dark ages - Dan 7:25-26

Rom 8:1-5 Paul says that "the main point" is that Christ is our High Priest in the Sanctuary in Heaven. As Heb 9 points out, one sacrifice on the cross, one entry into God's still-fully-functional Sanctuary in heaven - where Christ is in His role as Priest and King - "seated on His throne" - at the right hand of the Father.

Zech 6:13 Yes, it is He who will build the temple of the Lord, and He who will bear the majesty and sit and rule on His throne. So He will be a priest on His throne, and the counsel of peace will be between the two offices.”’

In Dan 12 He (God the Son - Jesus Christ) "stands up" to mark the end of that work - and the beginning of vengeance to rescue the saints.

=============== more detail

The inauguration of the temple begins the service (but is not part of the daily nor a part of the Day of Atonement at the END of the year) - but Christ enters each phase of the sanctuary as He himself laid it out in the Temple. First he does the daily where the records/sins are transferred case-by-case and then the judgment phase dealing with all the records and final disposition in full view of the Dan 7 court - with each detail for each person as Romans 2:4-16 specifies.

again - the Dan 7 detail shows the relationship between WHEN the judgment is going on - and WHEN the 2nd coming happens. So also does Rev 14:6-7 show u that all the while the judgment hour is current - the Gospel is going forward.

The fact that the wicked are persecuting the saints during the time the judgment goes on, and the gospel is being preached Rev 14:6 - completely removes the idea that all of the judgment waits for the 2nd coming to begin.. Rather as Dan 7 points out - the judgment completes THEN the 2nd coming happens.

I am happy to address your questions - as to this Judgment topic (one of my most favorite topics) - it is in a number of different places in the Bible - and is sort of the "Calculus" version of Bible doctrine.

The Judgment basics that we teach are in two chapters primarily -- Dan 7 and Romans 2

Judgment in Rev 14 is seen in Rev 14:6-7 which is the first message of 3 angel's messages and Rev 14 states that these are the final warning messages given to the world before the Rev 14:14-20 second coming and destruction of the wicked. Giving the 3 Angels messages is the mission of the Adventist Church.

That judgment is part of he "everlasting Gospel"(Rev 14:6) statement in the Bible found in 2 Cor 5 and Rev 14:6-7 - pertaining to Judgment.

2 Cor 5:"10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad. "

I am addressing "What is the Judgment" and "when did it start"

===============================================
https://szu.adventist.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/28_Beliefs.pdf

Christ’s Ministry in the Heavenly Sanctuary (belief #24)

There is a sanctuary in heaven, the true tabernacle that the Lord set up and not humans. In it Christ ministers on our behalf, making available to believers the benefits of His atoning sacrifice offered once for all on the cross. At His ascension, He was inaugurated as our great High Priest and, began His intercessory ministry, which was typified by the work of the high priest in the holy place of the earthly sanctuary. In 1844, at the end of the prophetic period of 2300 days, He entered the second and last phase of His atoning ministry, which was typified by the work of the high priest in the most holy place of the earthly sanctuary. It is a work of investigative judgment which is part of the ultimate disposition of all sin, typified by the cleansing of the ancient Hebrew sanctuary on the Day of Atonement. In that typical service the sanctuary was cleansed with the blood of animal sacrifices, but the heavenly things are purified with the perfect sacrifice of the blood of Jesus. The investigative judgment reveals to heavenly intelligences who among the dead are asleep in Christ and therefore, in Him, are deemed worthy to have part in the first resurrection. It also makes manifest who among the living are abiding in Christ, keeping the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus, and in Him, therefore, are ready for translation into His everlasting kingdom. This judgment vindicates the justice of God in saving those who believe in Jesus. It declares that those who have remained loyal to God shall receive the kingdom. The completion of this ministry of Christ will mark the close of human probation before the Second Advent. (Lev. 16; Num. 14:34; Ezek. 4:6; Dan. 7:9-27; 8:13, 14; 9:24-27; Heb. 1:3; 2:16, 17; 4:14-16; 8:1-5; 9:11-28; 10:19-22; Rev. 8:3-5; 11:19; 14:6, 7; 20:12; 14:12; 22:11, 12.)

========================

Dan 7 shows these details - about the Post-Dark Ages, Pre-Second Coming, Judgment “out of books” (Investigative) – done in heaven

The official doctrinal statement for our denomination as quoted above shows many texts - and that one of the places Adventists get this doctrine is from Dan 7

4 beasts (Babylon, Persia, Greece, Rome) -- Dan 7:1-8

And after Rome is divided into ten , and after the 11th horn arises - a judgment scene in heaven takes place. vs 9

The ancient of Days (God the Father) has a throne and that throne can move (has wheels) from one place to another. vs 9

The Ancient of days is seated, and the court is then seated. vs 9-10

a judgment scene "setup in heaven" (vs 9-10)

where the "Son of Man" (God the Son) comes to the "Ancient of Days" (God the Father" (Vs 13)

in a court room of myriads and myriads of beings (vs 9-10)

and the "books are opened" vs 10 (Investigative)

and "Judgment is passed in favor of the saints" vs 22

- Judgment of individuals happens and passes in favor of one side and against the other side

And according to the chapter this happens after the fourth beast (pagan roman empire) arises (7-10)

And it happens after 11th horn - conquers 3 of the 10 horns (7-9)

and the judgment happens after the 1260 years of dark ages (times and time and 1/2 time) (vs 25-26).

And the dark ages does not start until after the division of 10 kings - Roman empire splits into 10 parts

Israel is in Babylon, Persian, Greece and Roman empires - yet persecution of the saints takes place then and now - to this very day. And persecution continues all through the judgment - until it is completed.

So then in Rev 13:1-10 that composite of all 4 empires continues to persecute the saints until the second coming - as Dan 7:26-27 points out.

Keys to Apocalyptic timeline interpretation are found in Dan 9

1. All Bible timelines are contiguous -- in the case of each one
2. All apocalytpic timelines use day-for-year.

BTW: The entire sanctuary service in heaven is about "answering questions" (in the presence of the "myriads and myriads" of observers in Dan 7) as to who is forgiven and who is not and "exactly why" in each case. When all has been answered - the second coming happens.

There we see the texts --- and also "the claim" --

Pre-advent - Judgment in heaven that happens before the 2nd coming Dan 7:26-27.
Investigative Dan 7:9-10 - books are opened and myriads and myriads in heaven's courtroom are observing the facts being detailed.
Judgment passed in favor of the saints - Dan 7:22
some time After the 1260 years of dark ages - Dan 7:25-26

4 beasts (Babylon, Persia, Greece, Rome) -- Dan 7:1-8
And after Rome is divided into ten , and after the 11th horn arises - a judgment scene in heaven takes place. vs 9
The ancient of Days (God the Father) has a throne and that throne can move (has wheels) from one place to another. vs 9
The Ancient of days is seated, and the court is then seated. vs 9-10
a judgment scene "setup in heaven" (vs 9-10)
where the "Son of Man" (God the Son) comes to the "Ancient of Days" (God the Father" (Vs 13)
in a court room of myriads and myriads of beings (vs 9-10)
and the "books are opened" vs 10 (Investigative)
and "Judgment is passed in favor of the saints" vs 22
- Judgment of individuals happens and passes in favor of one side and against the other side
And according to the chapter this happens after the fourth beast (pagan roman empire) arises (7-10)
And it happens after 11th horn - conquers 3 of the 10 horns (7-9)
and the judgment happens after the 1260 years of dark ages (times and time and 1/2 time) (vs 25-26).
And the dark ages does not start until after the division of 10 kings - Roman empire splits into 10 parts
Israel is in Babylon, Persian, Greece and Roman empires - yet persecution of the saints takes place then and now - to this very day. And persecution continues all through the judgment - until it is completed.
So then in Rev 13:1-10 that composite of all 4 empires continues to persecute the saints until the second coming - as Dan 7:26-27 points out.

===================

It is of the form "claim" --- text.

Pretty obvious.

but it does not have "every detail" in one chapter... as we keep agreeing.

Your complaint amounts to "not every claim is one text" or at least "one of the claims I am most interested in is in a text other than Dan 7"

Either way a lot of space for what looks like a nit detail of whether it is in one chapter vs a different chapter and we both agree there is NO SDA document claiming all details are in one single chapter.

This brings us to the BIGGER question - why are you going down this side-trail on this sort of thread asked by a non-SDA to SDA's. Do you think non-SDAs want individual judgment some place besides Romans 2 and would blame SDAs if it is not ALSO found some place "else"???

tall73 · May 27, 2021

BobRyan said:
Pre-advent - Judgment in heaven that happens before the 2nd coming Dan 7:26-27.
Investigative Dan 7:9-10 - books are opened and myriads and myriads in heaven's courtroom are observing the facts being detailed.

Actions of beasts and little horn described, and judgment on the little horn. That doesn't match Ellen White's claims of judgment only on the professed followers of God as Babylon, Greece, etc. are not comprised only of professed followers of God.

Judgment on nations has happened throughout time, so it being pre-advent is not surprising.

And there is not picture of the actions of the saints. The actions of the beasts and little horn are spelled out, then the court judges the beast and the little horn, and the other beats have their authority stripped.

Ellen White claims that in this judgment the only cases considered are those of the professed people of God.

So in the great day of final atonement and investigative judgment the only cases considered are those of the professed people of God. The judgment of the wicked is a distinct and separate work, and takes place at a later period. Great Controversy Chapter 28

She says the judgment of the wicked is a distinct and separate work. But Daniel 7 describes actions of nations, which were not all professed followers of God, and the beasts have their authority stripped, and the fourth beast, Rome per your identification, is not all professed people of God, is killed, and judged.

The saints are viewed as a group and no description of their activities or individual cases are considered. The power that was afflicting them is judged, the saints receive judgment in their favor as a block, and then inherit the kingdom (which happens after the second coming) .

Judgment passed in favor of the saints - Dan 7:22

As a group, not individually, and their actions are not portrayed. They inherit the kingdom, but that happens after the second coming. And that happens after the plain texts showing individual judgment of believers at Jesus' coming.

4 beasts (Babylon, Persia, Greece, Rome) -- Dan 7:1-8

And those are not all comprised of professed followers of God. Per Ellen White those are the only cases considered. But Greece, Babylon, Persia, etc. are not that.

Israel is in Babylon, Persian, Greece and Roman empires - yet persecution of the saints takes place then and now - to this very day. And persecution continues all through the judgment - until it is completed.

Because God has always judged nations, and in particular judged them in how they treat His people. But there is not picture of the actions of the saints and review of their cases. We do see that in plain texts regarding Jesus' coming, and their standing before Him and giving an account, bowing, confessing, etc.

Pretty obvious.

Pretty obviously not what was claimed by Ellen White, that the only cases considered are the professed people of God in a judgment on their individual cases. This was a judgment on nations and the little horn. And those nations include non-professed people of God.

The saints are referenced as a group, who inherit the kingdom which only happens after the second coming. And plain texts reference the second coming being the timing of the judgment of individual believers before Christ.

but it does not have "every detail" in one chapter... as we keep agreeing.

It doesn't have the details that Ellen White claimed for the IJ.

Your complaint amounts to "not every claim is one text" or at least "one of the claims I am most interested in is in a text other than Dan 7"

Actually no, my complaint is that what is pictured in Daniel 7 does not picture what Ellen White claims.

And the texts that do speak of individual judgment show it happening in person, where we give an account, bow, confess, and receive what is due. That is not the Adventist IJ. Instead it says it happens at Jesus' coming.

Either way a lot of space for what looks like a nit detail of whether it is in one chapter vs a different chapter and we both agree there is NO SDA document claiming all details are in one single chapter.

Ellen White claims a judgment in Daniel 7 on only the professed believers of God that doesn't match the actual context of Daniel 7. You trying to turn that into "not all in one chapter" is simply trying to avoid what you already admitted. Chapter 7 doesn't show individual judgment on professed believers.

But it does show judgment on nations and the little horn, and those nations are not all professed believers.

This brings us to the BIGGER question - why are you going down this side-trail on this sort of thread asked by a non-SDA to SDA's. Do you think non-SDAs want individual judgment some place besides Romans 2 and would blame SDAs if it is not ALSO found some place "else"???

Because it is not a side trail when Ellen White changes the meaning of a chapter of Scripture.

And it is also not a side trail when Romans 2 refers to that "day" when Jesus reveals the secrets of man, which is shown to be at Jesus coming in plain texts.

Do you think the non-Adventists will somehow miss those texts I have posted again and again which spell out that we are present before Christ, give an account, and spell out the timing at Jesus' coming?

Daniel 7 doesn't say what Ellen White claimed. And the other texts make it plain why. We stand before the judgment seat of Christ at His coming.

Rom 2:16 on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus.

On that day, God judges the secrets of men.

1 Corinthians 4 shows when the secrets of the heart are revealed:

1Co 4:5 Therefore do not pronounce judgment before the time, before the Lord comes, who will bring to light the things now hidden in darkness and will disclose the purposes of the heart. Then each one will receive his commendation from God.

Other texts talk about believers giving an account at Jesus' coming, and being judged.

Mat 25:14 “For it will be like a man going on a journey, who called his servants and entrusted to them his property.
Mat 25:15 To one he gave five talents, to another two, to another one, to each according to his ability. Then he went away.
Mat 25:16 He who had received the five talents went at once and traded with them, and he made five talents more.
Mat 25:17 So also he who had the two talents made two talents more.
Mat 25:18 But he who had received the one talent went and dug in the ground and hid his master's money.
Mat 25:19 Now after a long time the master of those servants came and settled accounts with them.
Mat 25:20 And he who had received the five talents came forward, bringing five talents more, saying, ‘Master, you delivered to me five talents; here, I have made five talents more.’
Mat 25:21 His master said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant. You have been faithful over a little; I will set you over much. Enter into the joy of your master.’
Mat 25:22 And he also who had the two talents came forward, saying, ‘Master, you delivered to me two talents; here, I have made two talents more.’
Mat 25:23 His master said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant. You have been faithful over a little; I will set you over much. Enter into the joy of your master.’
Mat 25:24 He also who had received the one talent came forward, saying, ‘Master, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you did not sow, and gathering where you scattered no seed,
Mat 25:25 so I was afraid, and I went and hid your talent in the ground. Here, you have what is yours.’
Mat 25:26 But his master answered him, ‘You wicked and slothful servant! You knew that I reap where I have not sown and gather where I scattered no seed?
Mat 25:27 Then you ought to have invested my money with the bankers, and at my coming I should have received what was my own with interest.
Mat 25:28 So take the talent from him and give it to him who has the ten talents.
Mat 25:29 For to everyone who has will more be given, and he will have an abundance. But from the one who has not, even what he has will be taken away.
Mat 25:30 And cast the worthless servant into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’

Mat 25:31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne.
Mat 25:32 Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.
Mat 25:33 And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left.
Mat 25:34 Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
Mat 25:35 For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me,
Mat 25:36 I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.’
Mat 25:37 Then the righteous will answer him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink?
Mat 25:38 And when did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you?
Mat 25:39 And when did we see you sick or in prison and visit you?’
Mat 25:40 And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.’
Mat 25:41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
Mat 25:42 For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink,
Mat 25:43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’
Mat 25:44 Then they also will answer, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to you?’
Mat 25:45 Then he will answer them, saying, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’
Mat 25:46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

They appear before Him, He judges them, and some protest, but He presents the evidence against them. Then they receive their reward.

Rom 14:10 Why do you pass judgment on your brother? Or you, why do you despise your brother? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God;
Rom 14:11 for it is written, “As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.”
Rom 14:12 So then each of us will give an account of himself to God.

We bow
We confess
We give an account.

This is not the Adventist IJ where we don't even know when our name comes up. This is appearing before Christ in person for judgment.

AdamjEdgar · Oct 22, 2021

Tall783...
three quarters of what you write never gets past the shutters...you are repeating the same things over and over again regardless of the fact they have already been refuted and the errors explained...you are draining the life out of this topic with rubbish.

Lets change to a different point...I wonder if you could explain specifically Luke 13:33.

What is it referring to...what does it really mean? (Bob, this might also be of interest to you too...Doug Bachelor used this one and I hadnt thought of it before?)

tall73 · Oct 22, 2021

AdamjEdgar said:
Tall783...
three quarters of what you write never gets past the shutters...you are repeating the same things over and over again regardless of the fact they have already been refuted and the errors explained..

The texts noting investigation at the coming of Jesus have been repeated because they were never explained. You have not explained them either.

tall73 · Oct 22, 2021

AdamjEdgar said:
Tall783...
three quarters of what you write never gets past the shutters...you are repeating the same things over and over again regardless of the fact they have already been refuted and the errors explained...you are draining the life out of this topic with rubbish.

Lets change to a different point...I wonder if you could explain specifically Luke 13:33.

What is it referring to...what does it really mean? (Bob, this might also be of interest to you too...Doug Bachelor used this one and I hadnt thought of it before?)

The text is not obscure. Unless you are referring to it as a day for year proof.

tall73 · Oct 22, 2021

AdamjEdgar said:
regardless of the fact they have already been refuted and the errors explained

Yes, Bob "explained" it by noting that the text that Ellen White says pictures the IJ, Daniel 7, does not in fact picture judgment on individual cases, and he has to get that detail elsewhere.

Also, he never explained how Ellen White says the judgment is only on professed followers of God. But the judgment in Daniel 7 includes several nations who were not all composed of professed followers of God (Babylon, Persia, etc.). Her description and the text do not match up.

Moreover, the "elsewhere" that he has to go to get individual judgment doesn't spell out a timing other than that day. And the clear texts that do note a timing show that day is at Jesus' coming.

I will now post them yet again so you can answer them if you want:

The texts indicate an in-person judgment before the throne, revealing of the secrets of the heart, confession, kneeling, giving an account, objection but correction in the case of the sheep and goats judgment, etc.

You don't have given account or kneeling or confession at the Adventist IJ because they are not present, per Ellen White's statement.

Now are you going to address the texts?

Rom 14:10 Why do you pass judgment on your brother? Or you, why do you despise your brother? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God;
Rom 14:11 for it is written, “As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.”
Rom 14:12 So then each of us will give an account of himself to God.

We stand before the judgment seat
We bow
We confess
We give an account.

You cannot stand, bow, confess or give an account if you are not present, as in the Adventist IJ. This is an in-person judgment before Christ.

1Co 4:5 Therefore do not pronounce judgment before the time, before the Lord comes, who will bring to light the things now hidden in darkness and will disclose the purposes of the heart. Then each one will receive his commendation from God.

Jesus discloses the purposes of the heart when He comes.

Mat 25:14 “For it will be like a man going on a journey, who called his servants and entrusted to them his property.
Mat 25:15 To one he gave five talents, to another two, to another one, to each according to his ability. Then he went away.
Mat 25:16 He who had received the five talents went at once and traded with them, and he made five talents more.
Mat 25:17 So also he who had the two talents made two talents more.
Mat 25:18 But he who had received the one talent went and dug in the ground and hid his master's money.
Mat 25:19 Now after a long time the master of those servants came and settled accounts with them.
Mat 25:20 And he who had received the five talents came forward, bringing five talents more, saying, ‘Master, you delivered to me five talents; here, I have made five talents more.’
Mat 25:21 His master said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant. You have been faithful over a little; I will set you over much. Enter into the joy of your master.’
Mat 25:22 And he also who had the two talents came forward, saying, ‘Master, you delivered to me two talents; here, I have made two talents more.’
Mat 25:23 His master said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant. You have been faithful over a little; I will set you over much. Enter into the joy of your master.’
Mat 25:24 He also who had received the one talent came forward, saying, ‘Master, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you did not sow, and gathering where you scattered no seed,
Mat 25:25 so I was afraid, and I went and hid your talent in the ground. Here, you have what is yours.’
Mat 25:26 But his master answered him, ‘You wicked and slothful servant! You knew that I reap where I have not sown and gather where I scattered no seed?
Mat 25:27 Then you ought to have invested my money with the bankers, and at my coming I should have received what was my own with interest.
Mat 25:28 So take the talent from him and give it to him who has the ten talents.
Mat 25:29 For to everyone who has will more be given, and he will have an abundance. But from the one who has not, even what he has will be taken away.
Mat 25:30 And cast the worthless servant into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’

The servants give an account to the master at His coming.

Mat 25:31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne.
Mat 25:32 Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.
Mat 25:33 And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left.
Mat 25:34 Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
Mat 25:35 For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me,
Mat 25:36 I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.’
Mat 25:37 Then the righteous will answer him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink?
Mat 25:38 And when did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you?
Mat 25:39 And when did we see you sick or in prison and visit you?’
Mat 25:40 And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.’
Mat 25:41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
Mat 25:42 For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink,
Mat 25:43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’
Mat 25:44 Then they also will answer, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to you?’
Mat 25:45 Then he will answer them, saying, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’
Mat 25:46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

They appear before Him, He judges them, and some protest, but He presents their record. Then they receive their reward.

BobRyan · Oct 22, 2021

tall73 said:
Actions of beasts and little horn described, and judgment on the little horn. That doesn't match Ellen White's claims of judgment only on the professed followers of God as Babylon, Greece, etc. are not comprised only of professed followers of God.
.

You are mixing "judgment of" with "judgment on" --- does that really work for you?

"Judgment passed in favor of the saints" Dan 7:22 NASB is not "judgment passed on the saints".

22 until the Ancient of Days came and judgment was passed in favor of the saints of the Highest One, and the time arrived when the saints took possession of the kingdom.

As we see in Dan 7 - there is no judgment ON the persecuting entities until judgment OF the saints results in "judgment passed in favor of the saints".

Rev 22:12 “Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to reward each one as his work deserves. --- so the judgment of the saints has completed BEFORE the second coming.

2 Cor 5:
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive compensation for his deeds done through the body, in accordance with what he has done, whether good or bad.

Rom 2:
13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the Law who will be justified. 14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law instinctively perform the requirements of the Law, these, though not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience testifying and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of mankind through Christ Jesus.
...
29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from people, but from God.

Dan 7:. 24 As for the ten horns, out of this kingdom ten kings will arise; and another will arise after them, and he will be different from the previous ones and will humble three kings. 25 And he will speak against the Most High and wear down the saints of the Highest One, and he will intend to make alterations in times and in law; and they will be handed over to him for a time, times, and half a time. (dark ages)

26 But the court will convene for judgment, and his dominion will be taken away, annihilated and destroyed forever. 27 Then the sovereignty, the dominion, and the greatness of all the kingdoms under the whole heaven will be given to the people of the saints.

Your problem here is not Ellen White -- it is the text of scripture itself in places like Dan 7 and Rev 22 and all scripture dealing with that pre-advent judgment based on deeds done in the body whether good or bad as Romans 2 reminds us.

BobRyan · Oct 22, 2021

tall73 said:
Yes, Bob "explained" it by noting that the text that Ellen White says pictures the IJ, Daniel 7, does not in fact picture judgment on individual cases, and he has to get that detail elsewhere.

Romans 2:13-16 and 2 Cor 5:10 do highlight that detail - Dan 7 adds the detail of showing us how the future judgment of the saints fits in the stream of time - it gives the detail that this takes place after the 1260 years of dark ages which none of the other texts explain for us. Each text adding detail to what we know about the judgment of the saints.

Your problem here is not Ellen White -- it is the text of scripture itself in places like Dan 7 and Rev 22 and all scripture dealing with that pre-advent judgment based on deeds done in the body whether good or bad as Romans 2 reminds us.

BobRyan · Oct 22, 2021

tall73 said:
Also, he never explained how Ellen White says the judgment is only on professed followers of God.

this looks like judgment of those who are to be rewarded at the 2nd coming, where as Rom 2 points out - some succeed and some fail.

(Rev 22 second resurrection - great white throne judgment - is of the wicked)

BobRyan said:
"Judgment passed in favor of the saints" Dan 7:22 NASB is not "judgment passed on the saints".

Dan 7:22 until the Ancient of Days came and judgment was passed in favor of the saints of the Highest One, and the time arrived when the saints took possession of the kingdom.
...
Rev 22:12 “Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to reward each one as his work deserves. --- so the judgment of the saints has completed BEFORE the second coming.

2 Cor 5:
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive compensation for his deeds done through the body, in accordance with what he has done, whether good or bad.

Rom 2:
13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the Law who will be justified. 14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law instinctively perform the requirements of the Law, these, though not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience testifying and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of mankind through Christ Jesus.
...
29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from people, but from God.

BobRyan · Oct 22, 2021

tall73 said:
You don't have given account or kneeling or confession at the Adventist IJ because they are not present, per Ellen White's statement.
...
You cannot stand, bow, confess or give an account if you are not present, as in the Adventist IJ. This is an in-person judgment before Christ.

The Bible does not say "you argue with God" at the judgement - (as you appear to presume).

It says that the deeds of the person - the record itself - is what argues the case as Romans 2 points out.

AdamjEdgar · Oct 22, 2021

tall73 said:
The text is not obscure. Unless you are referring to it as a day for year proof.

again, could you specifically explain what Jesus meant in Luke 13:31,32,33?

31At that very hour, some Pharisees came to Jesus and told Him, “Leave this place and get away, because Herod wants to kill You.”32But Jesus replied, “Go tell that fox, ‘Look, I will keep driving out demons and healing people today and tomorrow, and on the third day I will reach My goal.’ 33Nevertheless, I must keep going today and tomorrow and the next day, for it is not admissible for a prophet to perish outside of Jerusalem.

It is clear here that Jesus is foretelling his own death...as was the case with his statement about the temple that the Pharisees used against him in his trial in Mark 14

57Then some men stood up and testified falsely against Him: 58“We heard Him say, ‘I will destroy this man-made temple, and in three days I will build another that is made without hands.’ ”

I believe that this is also in fulfillment of the Daniel prophecy day/year principle as Stephen was stoned 3 years later!

Would it be your interpretation that one who denies year/day prophecies must take this passage literally...ie he tells the Pharisees that he has only another 3 days left in his ministry?

In light of that, we know that John the baptist was beheaded in about A.D 28 and that Jesus made this statement very early on in his ministry (my understanding it was within the first 6 months). If there is no such thing as day/year principle, why then did Jesus falsy prophecy that he was going to be crucified within 3 days and yet his ministry went on for another 3 years...if not a false prophesy, then what was Jesus actually talking about? Surely you dont believe he was simply stating he would heal outside the city for another 3 days?

how would you then account for what Jesus then says in Matthew 23 (concordance x-reference to Luke 13-31-35) after he hears about Johns beheading...

37O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those sent to her, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were unwilling! 38Look, your house is left to you desolate.h 39For I tell you that you will not see Me again until you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord.’i”

tall73 · Oct 22, 2021

BobRyan said:
The Bible does not say "you argue with God" at the judgement - (as you appear to presume).

It says that the deeds of the person - the record itself - is what argues the case as Romans 2 points out.

It says give an account. Here we see giving an account, and interaction. He asks what they have done, and they answer.

Mat 25:19 Now after a long time the master of those servants came and settled accounts with them.
Mat 25:20 And he who had received the five talents came forward, bringing five talents more, saying, ‘Master, you delivered to me five talents; here, I have made five talents more.’
Mat 25:21 His master said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant. You have been faithful over a little; I will set you over much. Enter into the joy of your master.’
Mat 25:22 And he also who had the two talents came forward, saying, ‘Master, you delivered to me two talents; here, I have made two talents more.’
Mat 25:23 His master said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant. You have been faithful over a little; I will set you over much. Enter into the joy of your master.’
Mat 25:24 He also who had received the one talent came forward, saying, ‘Master, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you did not sow, and gathering where you scattered no seed,
Mat 25:25 so I was afraid, and I went and hid your talent in the ground. Here, you have what is yours.’
Mat 25:26 But his master answered him, ‘You wicked and slothful servant! You knew that I reap where I have not sown and gather where I scattered no seed?
Mat 25:27 Then you ought to have invested my money with the bankers, and at my coming I should have received what was my own with interest.
Mat 25:28 So take the talent from him and give it to him who has the ten talents.
Mat 25:29 For to everyone who has will more be given, and he will have an abundance. But from the one who has not, even what he has will be taken away.
Mat 25:30 And cast the worthless servant into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’

Here we see Him dividing them based on their record, and in fact some do question him about when they saw Him hungry, etc. and He interacts with them.

Mat 25:31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne.
Mat 25:32 Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.
Mat 25:33 And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left.
Mat 25:34 Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
Mat 25:35 For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me,
Mat 25:36 I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.’
Mat 25:37 Then the righteous will answer him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink?
Mat 25:38 And when did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you?
Mat 25:39 And when did we see you sick or in prison and visit you?’
Mat 25:40 And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.’
Mat 25:41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
Mat 25:42 For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink,
Mat 25:43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.
Mat 25:44 Then they also will answer, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to you?’
Mat 25:45 Then he will answer them, saying, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’
Mat 25:46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

Here Jesus points out that some will protest the judgment and will claim that they prophesied, cast out demons, etc. and He will indicate He did not know them, and points out their record of lawlessness.

So do you think people won't kneel, give an account, etc.? That is

Mat 7:21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’
Mat 7:23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

In this passage people kneel and confess, which cannot happen in the IJ because per Ellen White they would not know when their cases comes up. So if they are kneeling, bowing, confessing, etc. and are standing individually before Christ, that is interaction, and it is not the Adventist IJ which happens when the person is not present.

Rom 14:10 Why do you pass judgment on your brother? Or you, why do you despise your brother? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God;
Rom 14:11 for it is written, “As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.”
Rom 14:12 So then each of us will give an account of himself to God

All of these texts plainly spell out judgment on individuals, including giving an account, and at times even protesting.

But you show none of that in Daniel 7, of review of individual cases.

BobRyan · Oct 22, 2021

BobRyan said:
The Bible does not say "you argue with God" at the judgement - (as you appear to presume).

It says that the deeds of the person - the record itself - is what argues the case as Romans 2 points out.

Rom 2:
2 And we know that the judgment of God rightly falls upon those who practice such things. 3 But do you suppose this, you foolish person who passes judgment on those who practice such things, and yet does them as well, that you will escape the judgment of God? 4 Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and restraint and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? 5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who will repay each person according to his deeds:

So that is "according to deeds" not "according to ability out argue God"

7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek glory, honor, and immortality, He will give eternal life; 8 but to those who are self-serving and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, He will give wrath and indignation.

9 There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of mankind who does evil, for the Jew first and also for the Greek, 10 but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who does what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

Again it is based on what the person"does" not on their ability to "out argue God".

11 For there is no partiality with God.

13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the Law who will be justified.

14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law instinctively perform the requirements of the Law, these, though not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience testifying and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of mankind through Christ Jesus.

== hence the reference to Romans 2 in my post above.

tall73 said:
It says give an account. .

None of the texts you quote show someone arguing with God and presenting a point in their own favor and then winning any good result. In fact in your Matt 25 the saints do not present one single "argument in their own favor". By ignoring these texts I am reminding you of - you miss the key details.

2 Cor 5
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive recompense for his deeds done through the body, in accordance with what he has done, whether good or bad.

Not at all about arguing God into or out of something. It is a matter of what is recorded.

Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds.

Dan 7:
9 “I kept looking
Until thrones were set up,
And the Ancient of Days took His seat;
His garment was white as snow,
And the hair of His head like pure wool.
His throne was ablaze with flames,
Its wheels were a burning fire.
10 A river of fire was flowing
And coming out from before Him;
Thousands upon thousands were serving Him,
And myriads upon myriads were standing before Him;
The court convened,
And the books were opened.

21 I kept looking, and that horn was waging war with the saints and prevailing against them, 22 until the Ancient of Days came and judgment was passed in favor of the saints of the Highest One, and the time arrived when the saints took possession of the kingdom.

tall73 · Oct 22, 2021

BobRyan said:
You are mixing "judgment of" with "judgment on" --- does that really work for you?

"Judgment passed in favor of the saints" Dan 7:22 NASB is not "judgment passed on the saints".

I agree judgment passed in favor of the saints in Daniel is not judgment passed on them in the sense of punishment.

However, I was referencing Ellen White's statement in GC chapter 28, which spells out the Adventist view, and that judgment considers only the cases of the professed believers.

So in the great day of final atonement and investigative judgment the only cases considered are those of the professed people of God. The judgment of the wicked is a distinct and separate work, and takes place at a later period. Great Controversy Chapter 28

And in her scenario judgment would be pronounced on some as some are rejected, some accepted, and there is an individual review of cases.

But what I was pointing out several times, and you have not addressed, is that the judgment involves nations that were not made up of professed believers. The Babylonians, etc. were not all professed believers. So this doesn't fit the scenario Ellen White pointed out. Or else Babylon, Persia, etc. could not have their power stripped in this judgment. The judgment of Daniel 7 is on powers, but those powers are not made up of all professed followers of God. She just imposed her scenario on the text.

If this judgment is only on professed believers, then it can't be describing the judgment in Daniel 7 which involves clearly pagan powers who made no profession of following the Lord, and largely worshiped other Gods.

22 until the Ancient of Days came and judgment was passed in favor of the saints of the Highest One, and the time arrived when the saints took possession of the kingdom.

As we see in Dan 7 - there is no judgment ON the persecuting entities until judgment OF the saints results in "judgment passed in favor of the saints".

Incorrect. Judgment passed in favor of the saints is talking about judging BETWEEN two entities.

As in the case of the widow wanting vengeance against her adversary in Luke 18, where her case was eventually granted, judgment was passed in favor of her, and against her adversary.

Here the saints are viewed throughout as a unit. They have a legitimate case before God because of their adversary, the persecuting powers. And judgment is given in their favor, and against the powers persecuting them.

Nothing is said about judging the individual acts of the saints. Instead it spells out in great detail the acts of the beasts and the little horn which are judged by removal of authority and by slaying the beast.

And this is because the saints here are not being identified, but delivered. They are identified already, clearly seen as saints, from the beginning, being persecuted by powers.

And notice, Ellen White can't find any language here about the saints being judged individually, so she borrows language from the great white throne judgment in GC chapter 28.

At the time appointed for the judgment—the close of the 2300 days, in 1844—began the work of investigation and blotting out of sins. All who have ever taken upon themselves the name of Christ must pass its searching scrutiny. Both the living and the dead are to be judged "out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works."

She does not quote from Daniel 7 to establish this judgment of individuals from the books, but from Revelation, because Daniel 7 does not mention it.

Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done.

Rev 22:12 “Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to reward each one as his work deserves. --- so the judgment of the saints has completed BEFORE the second coming.

It says He brings the reward. Jesus knows His sheep, as the Scriptures state. He needs no prior judgment to bring it.

And the revealing of the secrets of men, and their rewarding is at His coming.

1Co 4:5 Therefore do not pronounce judgment before the time, before the Lord comes, who will bring to light the things now hidden in darkness and will disclose the purposes of the heart. Then each one will receive his commendation from God.

It is at the second coming when Jesus reveals the secrets of the heart.

2 Cor 5:
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive compensation for his deeds done through the body, in accordance with what he has done, whether good or bad.

Yes we do APPEAR. But in the IJ we do not appear.

And when we appear before the judgment seat we there receive the compensation. That is not in line with the IJ either. Per Ellen White we don't even know when our name comes up.

Now when do people receive compensation? When they appear before throne? It is stated plainly in Matthew 25.

Mat 25:31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne.
Mat 25:32 Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.
Mat 25:33 And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left.

He pronounces the judgment, they object, but then He points out their record, and they receive their reward.

Mat 25:41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
Mat 25:42 For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink,
Mat 25:43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’
Mat 25:44 Then they also will answer, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to you?’
Mat 25:45 Then he will answer them, saying, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’
Mat 25:46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of mankind through Christ Jesus.

Yes, and the Scriptures say when that day is that men's secrets are revealed:

1Co 4:5 Therefore do not pronounce judgment before the time, before the Lord comes, who will bring to light the things now hidden in darkness and will disclose the purposes of the heart. Then each one will receive his commendation from God.

It happens when the Lord comes. Then He brings to light the things hidden and discloses the secrets, and then each receive their reward.

Your problem here is not Ellen White -- it is the text of scripture itself in places like Dan 7 and Rev 22 and all scripture dealing with that pre-advent judgment based on deeds done in the body whether good or bad as Romans 2 reminds us.

It is in fact with Ellen White who can't even find review of individual cases in Daniel 7 and must bring in language from Revelation.

And it is in fact with Ellen White who says that the judgment is only on the professed people of God, but we have various pagan powers being judged in Daniel 7 who are not professed people of God.

And you won't explain how we appear before the judgment seat--which is spelled out in plain texts, but which you try to reinterpret to being absent. You can't explain how we confess, how we bow, how we kneel. But all of these happen when He discloses the purposes of the heart at his coming.

tall73 · Oct 22, 2021

tall73: Yes, Bob "explained" it by noting that the text that Ellen White says pictures the IJ, Daniel 7, does not in fact picture judgment on individual cases, and he has to get that detail elsewhere.

BobRyan said:
Romans 2:13-16 and 2 Cor 5:10 do highlight that detail - Dan 7 adds the detail of showing us how the future judgment of the saints fits in the stream of time - it gives the detail that this takes place after the 1260 years of dark ages which none of the other texts explain for us. Each text adding detail to what we know about the judgment of the saints.

If Daniel 7 doesn't show what you claim happening then the timing of Daniel 7 doesn't help your case. The timing described in Daniel 7 applies to what was happened in Daniel 7, which is the judgment on powers, and the deliverance of the saints from them. Judgment was given for the saints, as a group, against the powers.

So this says nothing about the timing of individual judgment of believers. But that timing is at His coming, where we see the sheep and goats judgment at the throne, where we see the heart revealed, etc. in plain texts. We see people give an account, and receive their reward.

tall73 · Oct 22, 2021

Tall73: Also, he never explained how Ellen White says the judgment is only on professed followers of God.

BobRyan said:
this looks like judgment of those who are to be rewarded at the 2nd coming, where as Rom 2 points out - some succeed and some fail.

Daniel 7 shows judgment on Babylon, and Persia, etc. These are not made up only of professed followers of God.

In other words, the Daniel 7 judgment is not talking about a judgment only on professed followers. So trying to get your timing from that is getting timing for a different event. It is timing for the judgment in favor of the saints and against those powers.

it is not only on the cases of professed believers as Ellen White Stipulates.

Ellen White spelled out something not happening in Daniel 7, but then claimed it was happening in Daniel 7.

tall73 · Oct 22, 2021

AdamjEdgar said:
again, could you specifically explain what Jesus meant in Luke 13:31,32,33?

31At that very hour, some Pharisees came to Jesus and told Him, “Leave this place and get away, because Herod wants to kill You.”32But Jesus replied, “Go tell that fox, ‘Look, I will keep driving out demons and healing people today and tomorrow, and on the third day I will reach My goal.’ 33Nevertheless, I must keep going today and tomorrow and the next day, for it is not admissible for a prophet to perish outside of Jerusalem.

It is clear here that Jesus is foretelling his own death...as was the case with his statement about the temple that the Pharisees used against him in his trial in Mark 14

57Then some men stood up and testified falsely against Him: 58“We heard Him say, ‘I will destroy this man-made temple, and in three days I will build another that is made without hands.’ ”

I believe that this is also in fulfillment of the Daniel prophecy day/year principle as Stephen was stoned 3 years later!

Would it be your interpretation that one who denies year/day prophecies must take this passage literally...ie he tells the Pharisees that he has only another 3 days left in his ministry?

In light of that, we know that John the baptist was beheaded in about A.D 28 and that Jesus made this statement very early on in his ministry (my understanding it was within the first 6 months). If there is no such thing as day/year principle, why then did Jesus falsy prophecy that he was going to be crucified within 3 days and yet his ministry went on for another 3 years...if not a false prophesy, then what was Jesus actually talking about? Surely you dont believe he was simply stating he would heal outside the city for another 3 days?

how would you then account for what Jesus then says in Matthew 23 (concordance x-reference to Luke 13-31-35) after he hears about Johns beheading...

37O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those sent to her, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were unwilling! 38Look, your house is left to you desolate.h 39For I tell you that you will not see Me again until you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord.’i”

You seem to be under the impression that I do not accept the year/day principle. I think there is evidence for it in some instances. See Shea's second article here for instance:

https://adventistbiblicalresearch.org/materials/vol-1-selected-studies-on-prophetic-interpretation/

The larger question is when is it applied.

But I have made no objection based on the day year issue here.

AdamjEdgar · Oct 22, 2021

tall73 said:
Tall73: Also, he never explained how Ellen White says the judgment is only on professed followers of God.

It is interesting what E.G Whites says about the vision she received concerning judgement.

I do not think it matters whether this is fact or just a fanciful dream, it does present a very interesting illustration of what the judgement may be like when we compare it with statements God has made throughout all the Bible about himself and how seriously God views sin.

I have cut and pasted some of her statements below (i am not trying to make inflamatory remarks of specific points in response to tall73's quote above other than Ellen White had a lot to say about the judgement).

It does appear that she focuses initially on just the judging of those who profess to believe the truth (I assume this means "Christians/followers of God) as opposed to those who are wicked. I think there is a difference here personally because i do not believe the wicked are those who claim belief in truth....i think truth are the principles of the Bible. This does not mean one cannot be saved if they have never read the Bible...we know that the second covenant states that God will write his laws on our hearts and in our minds...Jesus explained this when he stated, "in as much as you did it to the least of these my bretheren you did it to me."

On the morning of October 23, 1879, about two o'clock, the Spirit of the Lord rested upon me, and I beheld scenes in the coming Judgment. Language fails me in which to give an adequate description of the things which passed before me, and of the effect they had upon my mind. PH043 1.1

The great day of the execution of God's judgment seemed to have come. Ten thousand times ten thousand were assembled before a large throne, upon which was seated a person of majestic appearance. Several books were before him, and upon the covers of each was written in letters of gold, which seemed like a burning flame of fire, “Ledger of Heaven.” One of these books containing the names of those who claimed to believe the truth was then opened. PHo432.1

Another book was opened, wherein were recorded the sins of those who professed the truth. Under the general heading of selfishness came every other sin. There were also headings over every column, and underneath these, opposite each name, were recorded in their respective columns the lesser sins. Under covetousness came falsehood, theft, robbery, fraud, and avariciousness; under ambition came pride and extravagance; jealousy stood at the head of malice, envy, hatred; and intemperance headed a long list of fearful crimes, such as lasciviousness, adultery, indulgence of animal passions, etc. As I beheld, I was filled with inexpressible anguish, and exclaimed, Who can be saved? who will stand justified before God? whose robes are spotless? who are faultless in the sight of a pure and holy God? PHo4312.1

One class were registered as cumberers of the ground. As the piercing eye of the Judge rested upon these, their sins of neglect were distinctly revealed. With pale and quivering lips they acknowledged that they had been traitors to their holy trust. They had had warnings and privileges, but they had not heeded nor improved them. They now see that they presumed too much upon the mercy of God.PHo434.1

The names of all who professed the truth were mentioned. Some were reproved for their unbelief, others for having been slothful servants. They allowed others to do the work in the Master's vineyard, and to bear the heaviest responsibilities, while they were selfishly serving their own temporal interests. By cultivating the abilities God had given them, they could have been reliable burden-bearers, working for the interest of the Master. Said the Judge, All will be justified by their faith, and judged by their works. PHo435.1 (The Judgment)

BobRyan · Oct 22, 2021

Rom 14:10 Why do you pass judgment on your brother? Or you, why do you despise your brother? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God;

The case of the righteous comes up as Rom 2 shows "future" to Paul's day and as Dan 7 points out "before the 2nd coming".

Rom 14:11 for it is written, “As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.”

In Rev 20 after the 1000 years - all will bow --- both the wicked (raised in the 2nd resurrection) and the saints.... every knee

Rom 14:12 So then each of us will give an account of himself to God.

tall73 said:
We stand before the judgment seat
We bow
We confess
We give an account.

You cannot stand, bow, confess or give an account if you are not present, as in the Adventist IJ. This is an in-person judgment before Christ.
.

tall73 said:
Tall73: Also, he never explained how Ellen White says the judgment is only on professed followers of God.

Interesting but you are going down the wrong road and I think I can prove it to you.

A. 1 Thess 4:13-18 - is this the resurrection of the saints or the wicked or both in your POV? (I think we both know your answer but I could be wrong in my guess about your answer).

B. Rev 20 - the second resurrection - that happens after 1000 years --- is this the resurrection of the saints or the wicked or both in your POV? (I think we both know your answer but I could be wrong in my guess about your answer).

Assuming you have the correct understanding of those two resurrections - then you also have the answer to your own question and you also know that my statement in my past few posts on this topic are correct.

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