China’s Empty Cities

Estrid

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Wow, is that what they teach you, that the nationalists were merely motivated by a foreign religion?

What an insidious lie that would be. Is that really what they teach you, something of that kind?

Not remotely. Look up Taiping civil war, youve mixed up your events.

Who teaches you about "worship" of the CCP?

You are confusing China with North Korea.
 
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Halbhh

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Not remotely. Look up Taiping civil war, youve mixed up your events.

Seems Chiang simply observed the reality of the poor system of Russian communism way back in the 1920s, and that it would not be best....

Background only seems to support that view, so far as I see so far: e.g.:
"Chiang became a founding member of the Nationalist Party (a forerunner of the KMT) after the success (February 1912) of the 1911 Revolution. After the takeover of the Republican government by Yuan Shikai and the failed Second Revolution in 1913, Chiang, like his KMT comrades, divided his time between exile in Japan and the havens of the Shanghai International Settlement. In Shanghai, Chiang cultivated ties with the city's underworld gangs, which were dominated by the notorious Green Gang and its leader Du Yuesheng. On 18 May 1916 agents of Yuan Shikai assassinated Chen Qimei. Chiang then succeeded Chen as leader of the Chinese Revolutionary Party in Shanghai. Sun Yat-sen's political career reached its lowest point during this time – most of his old Revolutionary Alliance comrades refused to join him in the exiled Chinese Revolutionary Party.[19]
...
...Sun regained control of Guangdong in early 1923, again with the help of mercenaries from Yunnan and of the Comintern. Undertaking a reform of the KMT, he established a revolutionary government aimed at unifying China under the KMT. That same year Sun sent Chiang to spend three months in Moscow studying the Soviet political and military system. During his trip in Russia, Chiang met Leon Trotsky and other Soviet leaders, but quickly came to the conclusion that the Russian model of government was not suitable for China. Chiang later sent his eldest son, Ching-kuo, to study in Russia. After his father's split from the First United Front in 1927, Ching-kuo was forced[by whom?] to stay there, as a hostage..."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chiang_Kai-shek
 
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Estrid

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Seems Chiang simply observed the reality of the poor system of Russian communism way back in the 1920s, and that it would not be best....

Background only seems to support that view, so far as I see so far: e.g.:
"Chiang became a founding member of the Nationalist Party (a forerunner of the KMT) after the success (February 1912) of the 1911 Revolution. After the takeover of the Republican government by Yuan Shikai and the failed Second Revolution in 1913, Chiang, like his KMT comrades, divided his time between exile in Japan and the havens of the Shanghai International Settlement. In Shanghai, Chiang cultivated ties with the city's underworld gangs, which were dominated by the notorious Green Gang and its leader Du Yuesheng. On 18 May 1916 agents of Yuan Shikai assassinated Chen Qimei. Chiang then succeeded Chen as leader of the Chinese Revolutionary Party in Shanghai. Sun Yat-sen's political career reached its lowest point during this time – most of his old Revolutionary Alliance comrades refused to join him in the exiled Chinese Revolutionary Party.[19]
...
...Sun regained control of Guangdong in early 1923, again with the help of mercenaries from Yunnan and of the Comintern. Undertaking a reform of the KMT, he established a revolutionary government aimed at unifying China under the KMT. That same year Sun sent Chiang to spend three months in Moscow studying the Soviet political and military system. During his trip in Russia, Chiang met Leon Trotsky and other Soviet leaders, but quickly came to the conclusion that the Russian model of government was not suitable for China. Chiang later sent his eldest son, Ching-kuo, to study in Russia. After his father's split from the First United Front in 1927, Ching-kuo was forced[by whom?] to stay there, as a hostage..."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chiang_Kai-shek

Some reason you cannot think i might know something you dont?
I only live here, had family members killed in the wars, what would i know?

I gave you the answer and you ignore it, then offer me lessons on
something else.
 
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Halbhh

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Some reason you cannot think i might know something you dont?
I only live here, had family members killed in the wars, what would i know?

I gave you the answer and you ignore it, then offer me lessons on
something else.
I'm certain that every person on Earth knows things that most other people do not know, and of course I expect you to know a lot of things I don't and me things you don't, as is normal. :) Also, I'd definitely expect you to have lot of information, some of it good, on Chinese history.

One thing an outside observer from a distance can do to good advantage (if they do) is to offer a neutral perspective that isn't overly influenced by local feelings in that place. If I do well, I may have a view that is more objective. But if someone locally is extremely objective, they can do well also.

Having good evidence Chiang Kai-shek rejected Russian style communism after seeing it in person....why should we expect a different reason like religion?
 
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Estrid

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The battle over history is never truly won. The Christian presence in China goes back 1,400 years. This much I know. When the search for peace is over, truly over, it ends in Christ.

Islam has been in Europe since the year 711.
Is that a proof its the true faith, reason to welcome
it?
 
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Estrid

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I'm certain that every person on Earth knows things that most other people do not know, and of course I expect you to know a lot of things I don't and me things you don't, as is normal. :) Also, I'd definitely expect you to have lot of information, some of it good, on Chinese history.

One thing an outside observer from a distance can do to good advantage (if they do) is to offer a neutral perspective that isn't overly influenced by local feelings in that place. If I do well, I may have a view that is more objective. But if someone locally is extremely objective, they can do well also.

Having good evidence Chiang Kai-shek rejected Russian style communism after seeing it in person....why should we expect a different reason like religion?

Good grief. You are still out of date by a hundred years
and talking about the wrong war.
 
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Halbhh

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Your facile biased analysis.
And nobody worships the ccp.


Nothing about the 30,000,000 people killed because
of this foreign religion in the Taiping civil war.
Ah, you mean this one:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiping_Rebellion

"The uprising was commanded by Hong Xiuquan, an ethnic Hakka (a Han subgroup) and the self-proclaimed brother of Jesus Christ."

Ok, it makes sense you could think that might be blamable on Christianity....

Without knowing a lot more about Christianity, which instructs us to submit to governing authorities....

Without more detail about what is Christianity, how would a person distinguish whether Hong Xiuguan was just really making up his own new religion? It might seem like maybe that 'Christianity' stuff was the culprit behind his rebellion and violence, until you learned more about Christianity.
 
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Estrid

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Ah, you mean this one:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiping_Rebellion

"The uprising was commanded by Hong Xiuquan, an ethnic Hakka (a Han subgroup) and the self-proclaimed brother of Jesus Christ."

Ok, it makes sense you could think that might be blamable on Christianity....

Without knowing a lot more about Christianity, which instructs us to submit to governing authorities....

Without more detail about what is Christianity, how would a person distinguish whether Hong Xiuguan was just really making up his own new religion? It might seem like maybe that 'Christianity' stuff was the culprit behind his rebellion and violence, until you learned more about Christianity.

Well good, you finally looked at what i was talking about all along.

I was none of the time expressing my personal opinion,
i was TRYING to say why Chinese may have a dim view
of a religion they dont believe, and is deeply associated with
western cultural imperialism, and war.

Weve had enough chaos, foreign ideologies, religions,
drugs not welcome.

There are more flavours of christianity than there are of ben and jerrys.
40,000 sects, all with the True version.

Joseph Smith came up with his version. Saint or fraud?
Lots more killings over that.

Ive learned more than i ever wanted to.
 
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dqhall

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Your facile biased analysis.
And nobody worships the ccp.


Nothing about the 30,000,000 people killed because
of this foreign religion in the Taiping civil war.
Mao’s efforts to rearrange society according to atheist Marxist policies during the “Great Leap Forward,” may have killed 15-55 million people in the resulting famines.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mao_Zedong
 
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Estrid

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Mao’s efforts to rearrange society according to atheist Marxist policies during the “Great Leap Forward,” may have killed 15-55 million people in the resulting famines.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mao_Zedong

I have an uncle who was red guard

There is no need to wiki me about Chinese history!

Mao and the Bible are both unwelcome.
 
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Halbhh

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Well good, you finally looked at what i was talking about all along.

I was none of the time expressing my personal opinion,
i was TRYING to say why Chinese may have a dim view
of a religion they dont believe, and is deeply associated with
western cultural imperialism, and war.

Weve had enough chaos, foreign ideologies, religions,
drugs not welcome.

There are more flavours of christianity than there are of ben and jerrys.
40,000 sects, all with the True version.

Joseph Smith came up with his version. Saint or fraud?
Lots more killings over that.

Ive learned more than i ever wanted to.

There's quite a difference between a peaceful and law abiding group that are good citizens and in contrast some kind of violent rebellion and such. Just such different qualities.
 
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dqhall

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Estrid

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There's quite a difference between a peaceful and law abiding group that are good citizens and in contrast some kind of violent rebellion and such. Just such different qualities.

Obviously; but also, obviously, unrelated to what i said.
 
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Halbhh

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Obviously¤ but also, obviously, unrelated to what i said.
Well, a violent uprising against Government is clearly instructed against in the New Testament, Christianity's scripture.

Of course, it's not need to even have any religion at all for a violent uprising or conflict -- and religion isn't even the most common cause in the last century -- but Christianity at least is an actual damper to tend to prevent such. A nation with a lot of Christians that are actually following mainline Christianity, or at least if there is a strong enough lingering ethos of Christianity from previous times even, will tend to be more peaceful.
 
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Estrid

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Well, a violent uprising against Government is clearly instructed against in the New Testament, Christianity's scripture.

Of course, it's not need to even have any religion at all for a violent uprising or conflict -- and religion isn't even the most common cause in the last century -- but Christianity at least is an actual damper to tend to prevent such. A nation with a lot of Christians that are actually following mainline Christianity, or at least if there is a strong enough lingering ethos of Christianity from previous times even, will tend to be more peaceful.

Considering how Christians found the inquisition,
witch burning, pogroms, crusades, and black slavery all
justified in the bible and they all go to war with
Gods aid invoked, its easy to see why some of are leary,
suspicious, skeptical.

It may be that a history of christianity
leads to more peaceful countries but
as before, I am ( very) skeptical.

I would need solid documentation.

The western imperialists had their gunboats
in our rivers, they looted our capital, set up
military camps and sold opium by the ton.
And brought bibles.

Sorry- ah, we've no enthusiasm for more.
 
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Halbhh

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Considering how Christians found the inquisition,
witch burning, pogroms, crusades, and black slavery all
justified in the bible and they all go to war with
Gods aid invoked, its easy to see why some of are leary,
suspicious, skeptical.

It may be that a history of christianity
leads to more peaceful countries but
as before, I am ( very) skeptical.

I would need solid documentation.

The western imperialists had their gunboats
in our rivers, they looted our capital, set up
military camps and sold opium by the ton.
And brought bibles.

Sorry- ah, we've no enthusiasm for more.
Yes, what is looked up to becomes a possible lever to manipulate the population.

Like flag or nation or ethnic heritage.

When Christianity becomes widespread and old enough in a nation, a source of seeming legitimacy, then those that seek power will try to alter it and use it for their own purposes.

For their own lust for power and conquest. To dominate and harm others for their own seeming gain.

Just like anything that has status among the people, such as pride in the nation, ethnic heritage, anything that people look up to -- the respected thing becomes a target for a tyrant to remake into something new, to manipulate the people for himself personally, for his own lust for power.

So, wrongful goals, but covered over and justified in terms of

National pride
Ethnic pride
Religion
Flag
Ideology (Nazism, Communism, Socialism, etc.)

Expect that somewhere every year. A large nation like yours or mine births thousands of potential new tyrants every year.
 
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dqhall

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Considering how Christians found the inquisition,
witch burning, pogroms, crusades, and black slavery all
justified in the bible and they all go to war with
Gods aid invoked, its easy to see why some of are leary,
suspicious, skeptical.

It may be that a history of christianity
leads to more peaceful countries but
as before, I am ( very) skeptical.

I would need solid documentation.

The western imperialists had their gunboats
in our rivers, they looted our capital, set up
military camps and sold opium by the ton.
And brought bibles.

Sorry- ah, we've no enthusiasm for more.
It is a sad situation when one can not find any good in the Bible. America is great and allows Bible discussion.

China seized Tibet. Xi seized the Communist party election system. They threaten their neighbors with bases on artificial islands, threatened to nuke Japan, if they try to stop the seizure of Taiwan. China attempted to steal land from India in a border conflict. Chinese imperialists seized a port and other land in Sri Lanka with an unfair belt and road contract.

They steal intellectual property and ignore patent law. Yet you think imperialists are foreigners, not Chinese. Some know Chinese are imperialists building more nuclear missile silos.
 
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