Daniel 9:

Douggg said:

You, and everyone else on the planet, is living in a world that has been in a non messianic age ever since the fall in the garden.

During the messianic age, things will be different for the world.

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What you should be saying is that as a Christian you are living under God's grace and mercy.

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The NT Messianic Age has room only for those who believe and have experienced Christ's finished New Covenant accomplishments at Calvary.

Where does that leave you?

Douggg said:

The messiah is cutoff. The prince who shall come is after the messiah is cutoff.

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Messiah the Prince was cut off.

"Cutoff" is a noun. Check your English primer again.

Douggg said:

I made all "A" s in English.

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That should be "A"s, not "A" s.

There's something suspect about your English course(s).

jgr said:

Messiah the Prince was cut off.

"Cutoff" is a noun. Check your English primer again.

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"Cutoff" is not a noun. A noun is a word for a person, place, or thing.

A verb shows action or state of being. "was cutoff" is the compound verb in your sentence.

"Messiah" is a noun, the subject of the sentence you typed.

"the Prince" is a restrictive appositive noun to Messiah in your sentence.

jgr said:

The NT Messianic Age has room only for those who believe and have experienced Christ's finished New Covenant accomplishments at Calvary.

Where does that leave you?

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No you are wrong about that point.

Jesus will rule the nations with a rod of iron during the messianic age, i.e during the 1000 year millennium. Jesus will do so because there will be unsaved persons present during the millennium messianic age.

After the 1000 years are over, many of those unsaved will be deceived by Satan and will attempt to do battle against the camp of the saints, i.e. Israel, Jerusalem. Revelation 20:7-9.

In the new heaven, new earth, new Jerusalem, following the messianic age, and Great White Throne Judgment - only them who are saved will be there.

jgr said:

That should be "A"s, not "A" s.

There's something suspect about your English course(s).

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I think you meant A's. I will be first to admit that I don't always follow the rules of grammar in my posts.

@jgr

Here is something positive and uplifting to dwell upon, from Ephesians 1.

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;

9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:

10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.

13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

• Hi @Just The Facts

Just The Facts said:

It is not about Jesus dying on the cross and ending sin to atone for mankind's iniquity as some doctrines of men teach.

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Or is it?

You know, I've read and studied Daniel 9 for many years. I find it to be one of the greatest prophecies of the Scriptures regarding the first visitation of the Messiah. Which the prophecy itself does say it's about.

“Know and understand this: From the time the word goes out to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the Anointed One, the ruler, comes..."

I think that statement from the angel pretty well describes that this is about the coming of the Anointed One (Messiah). It is about Jesus coming and dying on the cross and ending sin and to atone for mankind's iniquity.

“Seventy ‘sevens’ are decreed for your people and your holy city to finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the Most Holy Place. "

A lot of people think that this is referring to the Jews becoming more righteous. But I contend that it isn't. It is about their bringing in everlasting righteousness. It is about their making atonement for wickedness. It is about their putting an end to sin. All of this was accomplished when God's people nailed Jesus to that cross! The death of Jesus brought in everlasting righteousness. The death of Jesus made atonement for our wickedness. The death of Jesus put an end to sin...for God's children, those who would believe.

God used the hands of His people, which was always His plan, to bring His salvation to the ends of the earth. And yes, many believe, myself included, that it was at the point of Jesus' life death and resurrection that godly vision and prophecy ended. As the blood of Jesus anointed the Most Holy Place. Not here on the earth, but in the heavenly realm where it really mattered.

That's my understanding.

God bless,
Ted

Douggg said:

Not 7 years? Tim, the weeks in Daniel 9 are 7 years each.

27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

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Verse 27 is a week of days, not years. Even if it were so, no one still places the 70th week half at the first coming and half at the Second Coming as it is written. Most place the 70th week all in the past or all in the future. Neither of those views are correct. The Revelation of God on earth as Jesus Christ is the 70th week. Jesus is the Messiah and the Prince. There was a 3.5 year ministry in the first century. The last half will be Jesus Christ on earth with His angels for what remains of the second half. The final harvest is that period of the GT.

Douggg said:

Tim, the 70 weeks are determined upon Daniel's people and Jerusalem.

24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

The prince who shall come in v26, "the prince" is not referring to Jesus, nor is "the shall come" referring to the Second Coming of Jesus.

The prince who shall come in v26 will be descended of the Romans.

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Jesus Christ is the only coming Prince. No other prince to come. You are over thinking the prophecy way farther than necessary.

Douggg said:

Here is the Hebrew to English translation of that verse from the online Tanach at Chabag.

26And after the sixty-two weeks, the anointed one will be cut off, and he will be no more, and the people of the coming monarch will destroy the city and the Sanctuary, and his end will come about by inundation, and until the end of the war, it will be cut off into desolation

The coming monarch is not Jesus, but the little horn person coming from the EU, as the leader of the EU, who will become the Antichrist.

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Do they use monarch in verse 25?

Douggg said:

But Jesus was not a Roman. The prince who shall come will be of the Romans.

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Not according to the context. No, where God did talk about Romans in Daniel 9. You are taking Daniel 9:26-27 out of context and forcing it to talk about someone else. Sorry, that does not work that way.

Timtofly said:

Do they use monarch in verse 25?

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Here is what they use...

25And you shall know and understand that from the emergence of the word to restore and to rebuild Jerusalem until the anointed king [shall be] seven weeks, and [for] sixty-two weeks it will return and be built street and moat, but in troubled times.

In Judaism, messiah means anointed. The kings and the priests were considered "anointed's". So I gather they are making the differentiation of the anointed in verse 25 being an anointed king.

BobRyan said:

Seventy Weeks and the Messiah

24 “Seventy weeks have been decreed for your people and your holy city,
· to finish the transgression,
· to make an end of sin,
· to make atonement for iniquity,
· to bring in everlasting righteousness,
· to seal up vision and prophecy and
· to anoint the most holy place.

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It is important to understand that the 70th week is all about God being Messiah the Prince and His People. Not God, His People, and evil prince. Keep that in mind.

Vs 25

New International Version
“Know and understand this: From the time the word goes out to restore and rebuild Jerusalem (457 B.C.) until the Anointed One, the ruler, comes, there will be seven ‘sevens,’ and sixty-two ‘sevens.’ (483 years) It will be rebuilt with streets and a trench, but in times of trouble.​

NASB
25 So you are to know and discern that from the issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem (457 B.C. ) until Messiah the Prince (anointed one) there will be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks (483 days = 483 years); it will be built again, with plaza and moat, even in times of distress.​

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Yes, Jesus is Messiah the Prince. He is the Messiah AND He is the Prince. Keep that in mind.

Vs 26

New International Version

After the sixty-two ‘sevens,(after 27.A.D. ) ’ the Anointed One will be put to death and will have nothing. The people of the ruler (Caesar) who will come will destroy the city (Rome) and the sanctuary. The end will come like a flood: War will continue until the end, and desolations have been decreed.​

(after the 69 weeks ends. So 27 A.D. 483 years into the 490 year contiguous timeline)​

NASB
26 Then after the sixty-two weeks (after 27 A.D.) the Messiah (anointed one) will be cut off (crucified Christ) and have nothing, and the people of the prince (Rome) who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. And its end will come with a flood; even to the end there will be war; desolations are determined.​

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That is where you are mistaken with this interpretation. Who told you to insert Caesar or Rome into verse 26?

Verse 26 is still talking about Christ the prince and the people of the same prince is the JEWS! They are the ones who came and destroy the city and the sanctuary as Jesus warned them (John 2:19-21). By put Christ upon the Cross bring the end to the Old Testament congregation as representative of God's kingdom. This was when Christ has taken their kingdom and gave it to the New Testament Congregation that produce fruits.

27 And he (Messiah) will make a firm covenant (1 Cor 11:25) with the many for one week (7 years), but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering (Heb 10:4-12); and on the wing of abominations will come one who makes desolate (pagan Rome, Caesar) , even until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, is poured out on the one who makes desolate.”

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Christ, the Messiah the Prince, according to context, did confirm a covenant with His People. This is how Christ build His Church until all Elect is secured while Satan was bound. Then after this, He is the one who has caused the sacrifice needed for salvation to cease. And he also caused His New Testament congregation to become desolate by loosing Satan from the bottomless pit and allowing him to come into the congregation for their unfaithfulness.

Nothing to do with Rome or 70AD.

TribulationSigns said:

Not according to the context. No, where God did talk about Romans in Daniel 9. You are taking Daniel 9:26-27 out of context and forcing it to talk about someone else. Sorry, that does not work that way.

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The people who destroyed the city and sanctuary, historically, were the Romans.

Arch of Titus in Rome, carrying away the temple menorah...

Douggg said:

"the people of the prince who shall come shall destroy the city and sanctuary"

Are you saying that because "Romans" is not directly spelled out in the text, as your reason for disagreement?

History is plain that is was the Romans who destroyed destroyed the city and sanctuary.

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Why do you see the prince to come as being a future Antichrist when we know that the city and sanctuary were destroyed in 70 AD? If it was referring to a Roman ruler/prince then it would be someone who was the ruler/prince of the Romans in 70 AD.

Douggg said:

The messianic age does not begin until Jesus returns and the 1000 years millennium begins - which will be God's Sabbath day of rest for humanity.

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Please show scripture that speaks of "God's Sabbath day of rest for humanity". I don't believe there is any and you're making it up. You should not act as if things you are making up from your own imagination are coming from scripture, Doug.

Douggg said:

You, and everyone else on the planet, is living in a world that has been in a non messianic age ever since the fall in the garden.

During the messianic age, things will be different for the world.

_______________________________________________

What you should be saying is that as a Christian you are living under God's grace and mercy.

Click to expand...

Is Jesus the Messiah your King, Doug? Do you think Jesus has made no difference in the world since His death and resurrection? Has He made any difference in your life and in the lives of the many millions of Christians who have been saved?

Douggg said:

The messiah is cutoff. The prince who shall come is after the messiah is cutoff.

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It does not say that the prince would not come until after the Messiah was cut off. You're reading that into the text.

Douggg said:

The people who destroyed the city and sanctuary, historically, were the Romans.

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Not according to God.

Why do you think the city is called by His name? Why do you think He is called the Holy Temple? Because those physical things "prefigured" Him. You're really asking the same question that some people asked previously when you queried, "How did they destroy the Temple if the Temple was still left standing until AD 70?"

Duh...that question was often answered (even though you don't accept that answer) that the prophesies spoke of the City and Sanctuary was actually Christ Himself! Not the physical buildings! Didn't you realize that is why the saints came out of the graves after Christ's resurrection and went into the holy city? It signifies our resurrection in Christ! And the reason why the Temple veil was torn from top to bottom when Christ died. It signified that Christ was now the Holy Temple, the physical one prefigured and that we would now be Priests in Him. All of this takes place before 70AD! There is no looking back to a temporal Holy City or a temporal Holy Temple, because Christ fulfilled both. Any prophecies concerning them that were to take place after the cross does not speak of that physical city, or that physical temple in Jersualem! It speaks of either Christ or the Church that is now that representation.

You probably going to ask how did the Jewish People destroy the city at the Cross?

Well, they destroyed the City in the exact same way the City was prophesied to be destroyed. They destroyed the Sanctuary in the exact same way the Sanctuary was prophesied to be destroyed. By the people of the Prince Messiah, killing Christ. Hello?! He is the only true Holy City and the only Holy Temple wherein may be found God's people. Christ is the City and Sanctuary by whom, and in whom all His people live and move and have their being. He is not a city made of physical wood and stone today any more than the Lord's Holy Mountain is the elevated hill located in the middle east called Mount Zion. He is the true city of promise versus the physical city that merely represented it before the cross. The question is, which one did the people of the Prince Messiah destroy?

Likewise, to Abraham was the promise made, and he sought the spiritual city, while the Scribes and Pharisees, LIKE YOU, sought the physical. That's why they couldn't understand how Christ was not talking about a Temple that took 40 years to build, even though He had just thrown the buyers and sellers out of that Physical Temple and they were asking for a SIGN that he had the power to do this! He replied, "Destroy this Temple and I will rebuild it in 3 days." Same with them destroying the city.

Hebrews 11:8-10

• "By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.
• By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:
• For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God."

The Holy City of promise can only be established in Christ. But the stone the builders rejected becomes part of another building of God. The original builders (Jews) having rejected Him as the foundation of their City and Sanctuary, so they (His people) destroyed him, and with Him the Holy City and Holy Temple. They don't have it anymore, much less saw it destroyed in AD 70! Again, it comes back to our perceiving the spiritual, versus looking for the carnal or physical fulfillment, even as Israel made the same mistake in doing. Even as some Churches are looking for a future Peace and Safety in Physical Israel, blah, blah, blah. The same mistakes over and over again! There is nothing new under the sun.

Isaiah 40:1-2

• "Comfort ye, comfort ye my people, saith your God.
• Speak ye comfortably to Jerusalem, and cry unto her, that her warfare is accomplished, that her iniquity is pardoned: for she hath received of the LORD'S hand double for all her sins."

The Israelites were always looking for a Messiah to set them free from the physical bondage of the Romans. They were always looking for a Messiah to establish a political physical kingdom and rule from Physical Jerusalem. They were always looking for a Messiah that would end the war and establish a physical Peace and safety in the Middle East--and because they were, LIKE YOU, they totally missed the True Messiah who would free them, who would reign over the kingdom and give them real Peace and Safety. Yes, Jerusalem would have peace. But not the sin-cursed city in the middle east! Which was NOT the Jerusalem, the Holy City of prophesy wherein they would find peace and safety. The city wherein they would have warfare cease is in Christ. Not in that sin cursed city in the Middle East, but in a city whose builder and maker is God. But the Jews summarily rejected that city. God allowed them to destroy THAT city which was called by His name, as well as the Temple called by His name. When they destroyed Christ, they destroyed both city and sanctuary precisely according to the prophesy of Daniel 9. Selah!!

Their (the people of the Prince) house was then left unto them desolate. Not in AD 70, but when they did this. Christ says so unambiguously:

Matthew 23:37-28

• "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
• Behold, your house is left unto you desolate."

Why does Christ speak to a physical city except that city be people, not buildings and stones? Is He talking to physical buildings, or to the people who would destroy Him, whom the city represented? He's talking about the same city Daniel 9 prophesied that they (His own people, per Daniel 9:24) would destroy and that desolations were determined upon. It was because they rejected Messiah the Prince and killed Him (as they had done the prophets before Him), not years later when Romans sacked the place. But when they destroyed Christ. Christ is the City wherein righteousness dwells as sure as He is the Holy Temple. That's how the Holy City can come down from Heaven because it is Christ that is our conurbation, city, habitation, metropolis, where we live and breathe and have our being.

So if and when you ask, "How did the Jewish People destroy the City AT THE CROSS," the answer is clear. The Holy City Called by His name and the Sanctuary of sacrifice were representations of Christ. The antitype, the true Holy dwelling place and true place of worship, which is the true Holy City and Holy Temple--if we will receive it. When they destroyed Christ, they actually destroyed both city and sanctuary. They have neither in AD 70. How then is a Holy City of God destroyed that was NOT HOLY nor of God, and a Holy Temple that was NOT Holy or of God? 70AD makes no sense!

TribulationSigns said:

It is important to understand that the 70th week is all about God being Messiah the Prince and His People. Not God, His People, and evil prince. Keep that in mind.

Yes, Jesus is Messiah the Prince. He is the Messiah AND He is the Prince. Keep that in mind.

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There are two princes in Dan 9 -- one of them dies for our sins, makes the new Covenant etc and is called the "anointed one" ... while the other one "destroys" and is NOT called the "anointed one" -- as we saw here --

Dan 9

Vs 25




Vs 26




27 And he (Messiah) will make a firm covenant (1 Cor 11:25) with the many for one week (7 years), but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering (Heb 10:4-12); and on the wing of abominations will come one who makes desolate (pagan Rome, Caesar) , even until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, is poured out on the one who makes desolate.”

Spiritual Jew said:

Why do you see the prince to come as being a future Antichrist when we know that the city and sanctuary were destroyed in 70 AD? If it was referring to a Roman ruler/prince then it would be someone who was the ruler/prince of the Romans in 70 AD.

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Good point.

Douggg said:

The people who destroyed the city and sanctuary, historically, were the Romans.

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That is true.

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And also

1. All Bible Timelines are contiguous - so no slicing and dicing them up and scattering it all over Earth's history.

2. Apocalyptic timeline use day-for-year.