God's unconditional promises to the ancient nation of Israel

setst777 said:

Hi Biblewriter,

Greetings.

God surely did accredited righteousness to the account of the Old Testament saints, but God accredited that righteousness in anticipation that payment would be made for their sins at a future time so there sins would be wiped out, and they could receive the Promise of Salvation.

Romans 3:25-26 (WEB) 25 God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished— 26 he did it (paid the ransom) to demonstrate his righteousness at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.

Hebrews 9:15 (WEB)

• For this reason he is the mediator of a new covenant,
• since a death has occurred for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first covenant,
• that those who have been called (OT and NT saints) may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.

Consider Abraham's Bosom, which was a Paradise located in a partition of hell. I believe, when Christ paid the ransom on the cross, Lord Jesus transferred Paradise from hell to heaven, now that He has paid the ransom for their sins.

Click to expand...

You subscribed to Covenant Theology?

Biblewriter said:

Are they, or are they not, in Heaven? THAT is the ONLY question. And Abraham;'s bosom was MOST CERTAINLY NOT in hell. It was a plae of bliss, not of torment, separated from hell by an impassable abyss.

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Those are your feelings. I respect your right to have feelings.

The reality is that for over five thousands years, the Jews understood Abrahams Bosom to be located in a partition of hell (hades) - a place where the righteous awaited the resurrection. They knew exactly what Lord Jesus was referring to.

Notice that Abraham's Bosom was in hearing and seeing distance from those in the partition of hell reserved for judgment. A chasm separated the two places.

The fact of Scripture is that, once Lord Jesus paid the ransom for all sins, only then did the New Covenant begin. All those in the Old Covenant who were awaiting the ransom to be made for them, are now purchased by the blood of the Lamb from Hades, and into Heaven.

Romans 3:25-26 (WEB) 25 God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished— 26 he did it (paid the ransom) to demonstrate his righteousness at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.

Hebrews 9:15 (WEB)

• For this reason he is the mediator of a new covenant,
• since a death has occurred for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first covenant,
• that those who have been called (OT and NT saints) may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.

None of your arguments or feelings can nullify the Scriptures.

Guojing said:

You subscribed to Covenant Theology?

Click to expand...

There are definitely covenants, and there are dispensations.

Regarding Covenants, God made many covenants with various peoples and nations and in many different times. But the main ones are:

God made a covenant with Adam and Eve.
God made a covenant with Noah.
God made a covenant with Abraham, and also all the Patriarchs
God made a covenant with Israel under Moses
God made a New Covenant of redemption by His Son so that, whosever believes in Him may be saved.

One cannot deny that there were different dispensations.

• The Law, under Moses was a dispensation under the Mosaic Law.
• The New Covenant is also brought in a new dispensation.
• I believe there will be a Thousand Year reign of Christ on earth in which God deals with Israel, fulfilling His promises to that nation. That is a dispensation. Resurrected Christians will reign with Christ over the nations during that 1000 years.
• Then there is the Eternal State after the Thousand Year reign, in which God himself will dwell on earth with His people forever.

In the Eternal State:
God's eternal resting place is Zion - the New Jerusalem stepping out of heaven onto the earth (Psalms 132:12-14 / Revelation 21:1-3) of which God would dwell with His people (those who remain faithful) for forever (Psalms 132:12-14 / Hebrews 4:8-11).

We enter God's eternal resting place (an actual place that God is establishing as the one He chose -Zion) at a future time by remaining faithful, into which we "rest from our works" (Revelation 14:13; Hebrews 11:13-16) compare to Hebrews 4:8-11.

God's eternal resting place - the New Jerusalem coming down from heaven (Revelation 21:2-3) is the same one as Pslams 132:12-14 describes, and is what Hebrews 4:8-11 is referring to.

So, we see, in the eternal state, that God will dwell forever in Zion with His people on earth, just as God promised in Psalms 132:12-14. That prophecy is Revelation 21:1-3 - the New Jerusalem coming down from heaven to Zion - where God will eternally dwell with His people - God's eternal resting place (Psalms 132:12-14).
The Eternal Kingdom that all those who remain faithful inherit, is from heaven, but resides on earth, just as God promised (Psalms 132:12-14 / Hebrews 4:8-11)

Revelation 21:2-3 (WEB) 2 I saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared like a bride adorned for her husband. 3 I heard a loud voice out of heaven saying, “Behold, God’s dwelling is with people, and he will dwell with them, and they will be his people, and God himself will be with them as their God.

Hebrews 4:1 and Hebrews 4:11 are both referring to eternal life, in God’s eternal place of rest, which only those who remain faithful to the end will inherit. As Hebrews 4 teaches and warns, the possibility exists that they could come short or fall away.

Hebrews 4:1 (WEB)
Let us fear therefore, lest perhaps anyone of you should seem to have come short of a promise of entering into his rest.

Hebrews 4:11 (WEB)
11 Let us therefore give diligence to enter into that rest, lest anyone fall after the same example of disobedience.

And so, we must be diligent to enter that rest, lest anyone fall after the same example as Israel did.

This is a warning given to Christians, because the possibility exists that we will fall into temptation and sin, just as the Israelites did, and could lose out on the gracious gift of Eternal Life, and so not be able to enter God’s place of rest.

Yes, true, Lord Jesus came for all His sheep, those of Israel, and those of the nations (the other sheep):

John 10:16 (WEB)
16 I have other sheep, which are not of this fold. [Isaiah 56:8]
17 They will become one flock with one shepherd.

Isaiah 56:8-9 (WEB)
8 The Lord Yahweh, who gathers the outcasts of Israel, says, “I will yet gather others to him, in addition to his own who are gathered.”

However, in the Millennial Reign of Christ on earth, God will again deal with Israel, to fulfill His promises to her. The resurrected Christian saints will reign with Christ during that time.

Israel has been reborn in a single day as prophesied, and Jews from all over being gathered to Israel according to God's Word. But the Jews do not actually repent and come to believe in Lord Jesus until the Battle of Armageddon. God will fulfill His promises to Israel in the Millennial Reign of Christ, as prophesied.

Zechariah 12:1-14
1 A prophecy: The word of the Lord concerning Israel.
The Lord, who stretches out the heavens, who lays the foundation of the earth, and who forms the human spirit within a person, declares: 2 “I am going to make Jerusalem a cup that sends all the surrounding peoples reeling. Judah will be besieged as well as Jerusalem. 3 On that day, when all the nations of the earth are gathered against her, I will make Jerusalem an immovable rock for all the nations. All who try to move it will injure themselves. 4 On that day I will strike every horse with panic and its rider with madness,” declares the Lord. “I will keep a watchful eye over Judah, but I will blind all the horses of the nations. 5 Then the clans of Judah will say in their hearts, ‘The people of Jerusalem are strong, because the Lord Almighty is their God.’
6 “On that day I will make the clans of Judah like a firepot in a woodpile, like a flaming torch among sheaves. They will consume all the surrounding peoples right and left, but Jerusalem will remain intact in her place.
7 “The Lord will save the dwellings of Judah first, so that the honor of the house of David and of Jerusalem’s inhabitants may not be greater than that of Judah. 8 On that day the Lord will shield those who live in Jerusalem, so that the feeblest among them will be like David, and the house of David will be like God, like the angel of the Lord going before them. 9 On that day I will set out to destroy all the nations that attack Jerusalem.
10 “And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son. 11 On that day the weeping in Jerusalem will be as great as the weeping of Hadad Rimmon in the plain of Megiddo. 12 The land will mourn, each clan by itself, with their wives by themselves: the clan of the house of David and their wives, the clan of the house of Nathan and their wives, 13 the clan of the house of Levi and their wives, the clan of Shimei and their wives, 14 and all the rest of the clans and their wives.

Christians will reign with Christ 1000 years over Israel and the nations.

Revelation 20:2-4 (WEB)
2 He seized the dragon, the old serpent, which is the devil and Satan, who deceives the whole inhabited earth, and bound him for a thousand years, 3 and cast him into the abyss, and shut it, and sealed it over him, that he should deceive the nations no more, until the thousand years were finished. After this, he must be freed for a short time. 4 I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus, and for the word of God, and such as didn’t worship the beast nor his image, and didn’t receive the mark on their forehead and on their hand. They lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 The rest of the dead didn’t live until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

This all fulfills the promises made to Israel...

Zechariah 1:17 (WEB)
17 “Proclaim further, saying, ‘Yahweh of Armies says: “My cities will again overflow with prosperity, and Yahweh will again comfort Zion, and will again choose Jerusalem.”’”

Zechariah 2:12 (WEB)
12 Yahweh will inherit Judah as his portion in the holy land, and will again choose Jerusalem.

During the 1000 yr reign, the Christians who were faithful onto death well reign with Christ 1000 yrs.

Matthew 19:28 (WEB)
28 Jesus said to them, “Most certainly I tell you that you who have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of Man will sit on the throne of his glory, you also will sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

After the Millennial Reign, then the second Judgment occurs, and then the eternal state follows when God will dwell on earth with His people forever - all those who trust in God.

Revelation 21:1-3 (WEB)
21 I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth have passed away, and the sea is no more. 2 I saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared like a bride adorned for her husband. 3 I heard a loud voice out of heaven saying, “Behold, God’s dwelling is with people, and he will dwell with them, and they will be his people, and God himself will be with them as their God.

Psalms 132:3-4 (WEB)
13 For Yahweh has chosen Zion.
He has desired it for his habitation.
14 “This is my resting place forever.
I will live here, for I have desired it.

setst777 said:

There are definitely covenants, and there are dispensations.

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Is that a yes or no?

You appear to be saying the following "The OT saints were saved looking forward to the cross, while we are saved looking back at the cross".

Would that be an accurate depiction of your view?

Guojing said:

Is that a yes or no?

You appear to be saying the following "The OT saints were saved looking forward to the cross, while we are saved looking back at the cross".

Would that be an accurate depiction of your view?

Click to expand...

Please revisit my post that you responded to. I added to it to explain further.

But regarding your comment, I do not believe the OT Saints were saved, in the Spiritual or eternal sense, until Christ first paid the ransom for their sins.

setst777 said:

I do not believe the OT Saints were saved, in the Spiritual or eternal sense, until Christ first paid the ransom for their sins.

Click to expand...

Isa 63:11 Then he remembered the days of old, Moses, and his people, saying, Where is he that brought them up out of the sea with the shepherd of his flock? where is he that put his holy Spirit within him?


Luk 1:41 And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost:


Luk 1:67 And his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Ghost, and prophesied, saying,


Gal 3:8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

By Faith

Heb 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
Heb 11:2 For by it the elders obtained a good report.
Heb 11:3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.
Heb 11:4 By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.
Heb 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.
Heb 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
Heb 11:7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.
Heb 11:8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.
Heb 11:9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:
Heb 11:10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.
Heb 11:11 Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised.
Heb 11:12 Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable.
Heb 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
Heb 11:14 For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country.
Heb 11:15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.
Heb 11:16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.


.

setst777 said:

Please revisit my post that you responded to. I added to it to explain further.

But regarding your comment, I do not believe the OT Saints were saved, in the Spiritual or eternal sense, until Christ first paid the ransom for their sins.

Click to expand...

So when you said the following

God surely did accredited righteousness to the account of the Old Testament saints, but God accredited that righteousness in anticipation that payment would be made for their sins at a future time so there sins would be wiped out, and they could receive the Promise of Salvation.

Click to expand...

Were they ever righteous before the cross?

BABerean2 said:

Isa 63:11 Then he remembered the days of old, Moses, and his people, saying, Where is he that brought them up out of the sea with the shepherd of his flock? where is he that put his holy Spirit within him?


Luk 1:41 And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost:


Luk 1:67 And his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Ghost, and prophesied, saying,


Gal 3:8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

By Faith

Heb 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
Heb 11:2 For by it the elders obtained a good report.
Heb 11:3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.
Heb 11:4 By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.
Heb 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.
Heb 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
Heb 11:7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.
Heb 11:8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.
Heb 11:9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:
Heb 11:10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.
Heb 11:11 Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised.
Heb 11:12 Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable.
Heb 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
Heb 11:14 For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country.
Heb 11:15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.
Heb 11:16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.
.

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Think about what you are proposing. If everyone who believed already had the indwelling Spirit, then there would be no need for a new covenant.

True God gave His Spirit to certain individuals in the Old Covenant to function as prophets, and as kings, and for special skill. But the pouring out of the Spirit on believers only occurs in the New Covenant.

Hebrews 8:7-10
7 For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another. . .
10 This is the covenant I will establish with the people of Israel after that time, declares the Lord. I will put my laws in their minds and write them on their hearts.
I will be their God, and they will be my people.

That promise of the Spirit, which began on the Day of Pentecost (Acts 2... and see: Acts 2:38)

John 7:37-39 (WEB)
37 Now on the last and greatest day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, “If anyone is thirsty, let him come to me and drink! 38 He who believes in me, as the Scripture has said, from within him will flow rivers of living water.” 39 But he said this about the Spirit, which those believing in him were to receive. For the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus wasn’t yet glorified.

Guojing said:

So when you said the following

Were they ever righteous before the cross?

Click to expand...

God accredited righteousness to them. God looked upon them as righteous because they believed in Him, walking with God. They were not redeemed until Christ paid the penalty for their sins. Their sins were overlooked by God, they were covered, until Christ arrived to redeem them - wiping their sins out which stood against them.

Romans 3:25-26 (WEB) 25 God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished— 26 he did it (paid the ransom) to demonstrate his righteousness at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.

Hebrews 9:15 (WEB)

• For this reason he is the mediator of a new covenant,
• since a death has occurred for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first covenant,
• that those who have been called (OT and NT saints) may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.

setst777 said:

God accredited righteousness to them. God looked upon them as righteous because they believed in Him, walking with God. They were not redeemed until Christ paid the penalty for their sins. Their sins were overlooked by God, they were covered, until Christ arrived to redeem them - wiping their sins out which stood against them.

Romans 3:25-26 (WEB) 25 God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished— 26 he did it (paid the ransom) to demonstrate his righteousness at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.

Hebrews 9:15 (WEB)

• For this reason he is the mediator of a new covenant,
• since a death has occurred for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first covenant,
• that those who have been called (OT and NT saints) may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.

Click to expand...

Interesting, you distinguish between righteousness and redeemed.

So one can be righteous but not redeemed, to you. Does the opposite hold, can one be redeemed without being righteous?

setst777 said:

Think about what you are proposing. If everyone who believed already had the indwelling Spirit, then there would be no need for a new covenant.

True God gave His Spirit to certain individuals in the Old Covenant to function as prophets, and as kings, and for special skill. But the pouring out of the Spirit on believers only occurs in the New Covenant.

Click to expand...

It is not what I am proposing.
It is what the Bible says.

Why would you think there were those in the OT who were believers that did not have the Spirit? Where is your scripture to back it up?

Luk_2:25 And, behold, there was a man in Jerusalem, whose name was Simeon; and the same man was just and devout, waiting for the consolation of Israel: and the Holy Ghost was upon him.


Why did Jesus speak to Nicodemus in a way below that shows Nicodemus should have already known what Jesus said about being "born again" of the Spirit?

Joh 3:1 There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:
Joh 3:2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.
Joh 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
Joh 3:4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
Joh 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Joh 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
Joh 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
Joh 3:9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?
Joh 3:10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?


,

Guojing said:

Interesting, you distinguish between righteousness and redeemed.

So one can be righteous but not redeemed, to you. Does the opposite hold, can one be redeemed without being righteous?

Click to expand...

You can't be redeemed unless the redemption is paid for.

BABerean2 said:

It is not what I am proposing.
It is what the Bible says.

Why would you think there were those in the OT who were believers that did not have the Spirit? Where is your scripture to back it up?

Luk_2:25 And, behold, there was a man in Jerusalem, whose name was Simeon; and the same man was just and devout, waiting for the consolation of Israel: and the Holy Ghost was upon him.

Why did Jesus speak to Nicodemus in a way below that shows Nicodemus should have already known what Jesus said about being "born again" of the Spirit?

Joh 3:1 There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:
Joh 3:2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.
Joh 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
Joh 3:4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
Joh 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Joh 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
Joh 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
Joh 3:9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?
Joh 3:10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?
,

Click to expand...

The Spirit will enter a person to prophesy, or to mark them for a special task, but the Spirit only began to be poured out upon believers in the New Covenant.

Read Acts of the Apostles 2.

The promise of the Spirit is for the New Covenant.

John 7:37-39 (WEB)
37 Now on the last and greatest day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, “If anyone is thirsty, let him come to me and drink! (continuous) 38 He who believes (continuous) in me, as the Scripture has said, from within him will flow rivers of living water.” 39 But he said this about the Spirit, which those believing in him were to receive. For the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus wasn’t yet glorified.

Did you read that? Look again at the words in red.

Being born again is only for the New Covenant - after the resurrection of Lord Jesus:

1 Peter 1:3 (WEB)
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to his great mercy caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead

In John 3, Nicodemus asked Jesus the following:

“How can this be?” John 3:9

Lord Jesus graciously replied to Nicodemus with a complete answer as follows:

John 3:14-18 (WEB) 14 As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

Only by Faith does the Spirit indwell a person, and only in the New Covenant. The Spirit indwelling you is the eternal life of God.

Being born again comes by faith in Lord Jesus after hearing the Word about Christ, and only occurs after Lord Jesus was resurrected.

Biblewriter said:

What the Jews thought has zero relationship to the truth. The Hebrew word word translated "hell" simply meant "the grave." There is absolutely no scriptural basis for even imagining that Abraham's bosom was "a compartment of hell."

Hell is a place pf torment. And Abraham's bosom was a place of comfort. They are not even similar.

Click to expand...

Lord Jesus was instructing the Jews who already understood long ago what Abraham's Bosom was. The depiction of Abraham's Bosom by Lord Jesus is exactly what was already known by the Jews for thousands of years.

"Hell" is the Greek word for "Hades." There was a partition in Hades (Hell) for those who awaited the promise of God by faith, which was called, "Abraham's Bosom."

You can deny it all you want, but those are the facts.

BABerean2 said:

It is not what I am proposing.
It is what the Bible says.

Why would you think there were those in the OT who were believers that did not have the Spirit? Where is your scripture to back it up?

Luk_2:25 And, behold, there was a man in Jerusalem, whose name was Simeon; and the same man was just and devout, waiting for the consolation of Israel: and the Holy Ghost was upon him.

Why did Jesus speak to Nicodemus in a way below that shows Nicodemus should have already known what Jesus said about being "born again" of the Spirit?

Joh 3:1 There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:
Joh 3:2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.
Joh 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
Joh 3:4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
Joh 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Joh 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
Joh 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
Joh 3:9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?
Joh 3:10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?
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Keep in mind that being born again (life in the Spirit, being made alive) only occurs after one believes in Lord Jesus in the New Covenant.

John 5:24 (WEB) 24 “Most certainly I tell you, he who hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life, and doesn’t come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life

John 8:12 (WEB) 12 Again, therefore, Jesus spoke to them, saying, “I am the light of the world. [Isaiah 60:1] He who follows me will not walk in the darkness, but will have the light of life.”

John 12:46 (WEB)
46 I have come as a light into the world, that whoever believes in me may not remain in the darkness

By faith pass from death to life, from darkness to light. Therefore, you are not made alive by the Spirit so you can believe; rather, you must believe in Lord Jesus to be made alive by the Spirit.

setst777 said:

You can't be redeemed unless the redemption is paid for.

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So can you be righteous, without being redeemed?

That is what you are claiming regarding OT saints, before the cross, correct?

Guojing said:

So can you be righteous, without being redeemed?

That is what you are claiming regarding OT saints, before the cross, correct?

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No one is righteous, not even one. God accredited righteousness to the accounts of those who believed in Him in anticipation of the redemption that would come through the Gospel of Christ.

All those in the Old Covenant who were awaiting the ransom to be made for them, are now purchased by the blood of the Lamb.

Romans 3:25-26 (WEB) 25 God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished— 26 he did it (paid the ransom) to demonstrate his righteousness at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.

Hebrews 9:15 (WEB)

• For this reason he is the mediator of a new covenant,
• since a death has occurred for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first covenant,
• that those who have been called (OT and NT saints) may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.

Did you read those Passages?

setst777 said:

No one is righteous, not even one. God accredited righteousness to the accounts of those who believed in Him in anticipation of the redemption that would come through the Gospel of Christ.

All those in the Old Covenant who were awaiting the ransom to be made for them, are now purchased by the blood of the Lamb.

Romans 3:25-26 (WEB) 25 God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished— 26 he did it (paid the ransom) to demonstrate his righteousness at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.

Hebrews 9:15 (WEB)

• For this reason he is the mediator of a new covenant,
• since a death has occurred for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first covenant,
• that those who have been called (OT and NT saints) may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.

Did you read those Passages?

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I did, they are not saying what you think they are saying, but that is not my point. I am trying to understand what exactly you believe in.

When you said

God accredited righteousness to the accounts of those who believed in Him in anticipation of the redemption that would come through the Gospel of Christ.

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If God accredited righteousness to them, before the cross, you are also saying you believed that the OT saints were righteous before the cross happened.

Am I understanding you correctly?