Imputation?

Calvinist. It is not possible for the elect to discard Christ.

Nor is it possible for anyone to 'snatch (Christ's) sheep from (his) hand.'

Thatgirloncfforums said:

Thanks.

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No worries!

Thatgirloncfforums said:

Rn, I am trying to understand imputation. I know that Sts. Bernard and Aquinas used the term. I also know thanks to Fr. LaGrange, that ideas of predestination, election, ect. are as Catholic as they are Lutheran.

As Catholics, what is your understanding of imputation (specifically as it refers to the righteousness of Christ)?

Thanks all!

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I hadn't given the formal theological term "imputation" much thought until now. So I went looking on the internet.

I found this Orthodox site - https://www.oca.org/reflections/fr.-john-breck/gods-righteousness - which appears to give a fair summary. Bear in mind that the writer is an Orthodox priest.

1. The Protestant position -

The Protestant notion of “imputation,” (as I understand it) grew out of the conviction that we are inherently (by nature) incapable of making ourselves righteous; we cannot become truly just on the basis of our own good deeds or merits. Insofar as the qualities of justice and righteousness are attributable to us, we should understand that God imputes them to us as an expression of His mercy.

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2. The Catholic position -

In the West, at least in the popular mind, the debate was long polarized between Catholic emphasis on salvation through “works-righteousness,” and Protestant insistence on “justification by faith (alone!).” The presupposition underlying both views is that we inherit Adam’s guilt, which resulted from his sinful disobedience to the divine commandment.2 St Augustine seemed convinced that the guilt resulting from Adam’s sin is transmitted through the sexual act, from generation to generation, like some deleterious gene. This “original sin” must be removed if we are to be saved from death, to share in eternal life. The question as to how this is accomplished has received many different answers. Medieval Catholic piety held that this occurs through infused grace, which confers upon us the power to perform righteous deeds and thereby actually to become or be made righteous. This enables us to build up a “treasury of merits,” the term “merit” being understood as a gift of divine grace rather than our own accomplishment (Council of Trent, 1547).

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3. The Orthodox position -

To the Greek Fathers, what we inherit from Adam is not his sin and consequent guilt, but mortality.4 From Adam (understood, really, as an archetype), we “inherit” the sting of death. Death has spread to all of humanity, as an inevitable consequence of our fallen nature; yet each of us, under the threat of death, rebels personally against God, the Author of Life. This means that our guilt is our own; we bring it upon ourselves. (A sign in our local marina declares: “You are responsible for your wake!” How true…) ....

.....

What we are saved from is the key issue here. Rather than view salvation primarily as a forensic liberation from guilt through imputed or imparted righteousness, we should see it as incorporation, by baptism, into Christ’s death and resurrection, such that we “die and rise” with Him. Thus we are saved from Death.

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It probably boils down to the traditions of the various theologians as to what they believe we are saved from - sin or mortality - and how God imputes His righteousness to fallen Christians.

In the end, my suspicion is that those Christians of any tradition who take their faith seriously apply a combination of "faith and works", as the obvious existence of Catholic, Protestant and Orthodox charities makes clear.

boughtwithaprice said:

the question remains what do we
do once we are justified and can you discard Christ once we believe?

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Some Protestants would say emphatically that once saved anything goes. Other Protestants would disagree big time.

Are you taking the position of once saved always saved? Is that what you wish to propose here? If so we can talk about that

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Should be easy enough to refute. Jesus wouldn't have tolerated such a teaching.

Bob Crowley said:

I hadn't given the formal theological term "imputation" much thought until now. So I went looking on the internet.

I found this Orthodox site - https://www.oca.org/reflections/fr.-john-breck/gods-righteousness - which appears to give a fair summary. Bear in mind that the writer is an Orthodox priest.

1. The Protestant position -

2. The Catholic position -

3. The Orthodox position -

It probably boils down to the traditions of the various theologians as to what they believe we are saved from - sin or mortality - and how God imputes His righteousness to fallen Christians.

In the end, my suspicion is that those Christians of any tradition who take their faith seriously apply a combination of "faith and works", as the obvious existence of Catholic, Protestant and Orthodox charities makes clear.

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The Catholic 'position' listed in this Orthodox view is largely an exaggeration of a common Protestant view of what Catholics believe and not what Catholic teaching actually says. We don't do 'works-righteousness' no matter how often people try to drum it into us.

"The presupposition underlying both views is that we inherit Adam’s guilt"

This is incorrect, we do not inherit Adam’s guilt we inherit a fallen human nature from Adam not his guilt. See CCC 405 and 405. Death of course is part of that fallen nature. The Orthodox and Catholic positions appear to be the same.

chevyontheriver said:

The Catholic 'position' listed in this Orthodox view is largely an exaggeration of a common Protestant view of what Catholics believe and not what Catholic teaching actually says. We don't do 'works-righteousness' no matter how often people try to drum it into us.

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Yes. Many Orthodox sources on what the Catholic Church teaches on justification remind me of Baptist caricatures of Rome. The Orthodox and Catholic views are really not dissimilar. Both understand that we are justified not only by faith, but also by God’s grace working in and within and with us as we grow in holiness, and follow Christ, and die to ourselves.

Most Protestants would probably call this “sanctification” but we would call it “Christ is still saving me. From death, Hell, myself, this world, sin, and separation from God, who loves me”.

What is the Calvinist idea of imputed sin?

I thought this thread was looking for the Catholic pov??

anna ~ grace said:

Yes. Many Orthodox sources on what the Catholic Church teaches on justification remind me of Baptist caricatures of Rome. The Orthodox and Catholic views are really not dissimilar. Both understand that we are justified not only by faith, but also by God’s grace working in and within and with us as we grow in holiness, and follow Christ, and die to ourselves.

Most Protestants would probably call this “sanctification” but we would call it “Christ is still saving me. From death, Hell, myself, this world, sin, and separation from God, who loves me”.

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I suspect a lot of the Orthodox commentariat may be former Protestants who haven’t unlearned all of their prejudices yet.

Thatgirloncfforums said:

Here we go @Chesster.
This sounds to me to be identical with the Calvinist idea of imputed sin or Adam as federal head. But, I await your correction if need be.

https://www.newadvent.org/summa/2081.htm

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One hint here -- the Summa Theologiae is not an official Catholic teaching document -- that would be the Catechism of the Catholic Church. Aquinas was indeed a great theologian and his work has often been used by the Magisterium to formalize Catholic teaching. But his work standing alone does not qualify as an official teaching source of the Catholic Church and may contain specific ideas that are not aligned with Catholic teaching. It's the work of a theologian, not the Magisterium. Best to stick with the Catechism if you want to try to put forth the Catholic position, or canons of ecumenical councils, or a papal encylical. Not the work of any individual theologian, even one as important as Aquinas or Augustine.

Mclachlan said:

Calvinist. It is not possible for the elect to discard Christ.

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Well that begs the question, how do you know you are elect?

2Peter1 tells us

Through these, he has bestowed on us the precious and very great promises, so that through them you may come to share in the divine nature, after escaping from the corruption that is in the world because of evil desire. For this very reason, make every effort to supplement your faith with virtue, virtue with knowledge,
knowledge with self-control, self-control with endurance, endurance with devotion,
devotion with mutual affection, mutual affection with love.
If these are yours and increase in abundance, they will keep you from being idle or unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Anyone who lacks them is blind and shortsighted, forgetful of the cleansing of his past sins. Therefore, brothers, be all the more eager to make your call and election firm, for, in doing so, you will never stumble.
For, in this way, entry into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and savior Jesus Christ will be richly provided for you.



It says that faith must be supplemented with Virtue, virtue with knowledge, self control and endurance, devotion and love. The elect are those that DO the will of the Father, just as Jesus says. Not everyone that says to me Lord, Lord, will enter the kingdom of heaven, but those that DO the will of the Father.

While it may not be possible for the elect to discard Christ, it is possible to a human being to grow weary and give up trying to be a Christian and therefore return to sin.
Being one of the elect is a way of life, not a one and done legal transaction that says no matter what one does, he cannot be lost.
The Christian way of life is a constant battle against the forces of darkness. Those that do not fight this battle will be overcome and lost. The parable of the seed and the sower explains this.

As Catholics, we know we are the seed in the good soil if we avail ourselves of the sacraments, and we lead a contemplative life. Praying the Rosary is an exceptionally good way to contemplate the scriptures as it reviews 20 mysteries of Christ's life and ministry, all taken directly from the Gospels.
It allows us to keep Christ ever before us, and it is very hard to fall into sin, if Christ is directly beside us or in our hearts.

We need to cultivate virtue and be made worthy of the promises of Christ

Mclachlan said:

Nor is it possible for anyone to 'snatch (Christ's) sheep from (his) hand.'

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Of course it's not possible. God is faithful, and He provides all the grace we ever need to be faithful. Nobody can forcibly remove us from God's hand.

But that doesn't mean we will choose to remain in His hand. There is a difference, and Scripture is full of warnings that we must remain in Christ, and if we choose to not, we will be cut off from the vine. And we will be worse off than before we ever knew Christ.

The only reason it is not possible is because God guards the believer until the end.

And how can you say that nobody can forcibly remove us from God's hand, and then in the next sentence say that we can choose to be cut off from the vine?
What does nobody mean? Not even the devil himself can steal the elect.

This discussion intends to obtain the Roman Catholic view of imputation, so I would respectfully disagree with this view and move on.

Grace and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord.

Mclachlan said:

The only reason it is not possible is because God guards the believer until the end.

And how can you say that nobody can forcibly remove us from God's hand, and then in the next sentence say that we can choose to be cut off from the vine?
What does nobody mean? Not even the devil himself can steal the elect.

This discussion intends to obtain the Roman Catholic view of imputation, so I would respectfully disagree with this view and move on.

Grace and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord.

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I can say that because there's a difference between being kidnapped and running away from home.

It's also the only way to be able to get consistency throughout the entire Bible and not have to gloss over a lot of things that don't fit.