Why is Protestantism always divided into two categories?

Neostarwcc

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Even though the essential beliefs are the same. There are many Bible believing Calvinist Churches and ditto Arminian churches. Even though our core beliefs are exactly the same. Calvinists believe in T.U.L.I.P and Arminians have their own idea of T.U.L.I.P.

My argument is not going to be "Calvinism is true and Arminianism is wrong" although naturally as a Calvinist j do believe thats the case.

My intention is to show that there isn't really much of a difference between Calvinism and Arminism. Both sides admit for example, God is sovereign. In fact, all Christians share that belief. Mainly because you can't even open the Bible to page 2 without it talking about our Lord's Sovreignty. Even the Jews and Muslims agree that God is sovereign. Arminians don't talk about the subject much but they also believe In a form of predestination.


What angers me though is when there is this division in beliefs, we tend to call people who don't believe in what we do as unsaved. The only difference? Unless we're talking about hyper calvinists we Calvinists don't call another denomination not saved. The Arminianists will attack the Calvinists and Catholics but Calvinists believe Arminians and Catholics can be saved as they would be saved the same way as anybody else. By.grace through faith and faith is a gift from God. It doesn't matter who you are If you came to Christ with a full on repentant heart than, you are as saved as any other Christian.

For it is impossible to truly come to Christ without a regenerate heart. Without God's intervention we all would have perished. But luckily God gives his own a heart of flesh.
 

Albion

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My intention is to show that there isn't really much of a difference between Calvinism and Arminism. Both sides admit for example, God is sovereign. In fact, all Christians share that belief.
It's worth considering that all of Protestantism ISN'T actually divided between Calvinists and Arminians.

That's one way of separating some of the churches from some of the others, it's true, but there are also other lines of demarcation which, however, probably don't mean as much to the Calvinists and Arminians as do the theological disputes that concern Calvinists the most.
 
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spiritfilledjm

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That is ridiculous and I always reprove someone who says that if you believe *insert doctrinal issue here that does not challenge that one must believe in Jesus Christ in order to be saved* then you are not saved. Secondary issues such as cessationism vs. continuism, calvinist vs. arminian, baptized vs. unbaptized, sprinkling vs. fully immersed, do not affect salvation at all and therefore should not cause such a rift. We have so many bigger fish to fry outside of this tired argument. Jesus says to believe, so just believe! Whether it ultimately saves us, or whether God already knew and predestined it is of no consequence! Not when we have so-called ministers and "Christians" telling everyone that we are all saved in the end so live life how you see fit and you'll go to heaven no matter what. Believe in whatever God you want because we will all end up in heaven, those who don't believe and live a life of evil will have to traverse through Hell being refined by its fire into the pure creation God intended. These are the doctrines that should be separating the wheat from the chaff, that should be causing division, for lack of a better word because one can't exactly separate from that which they are not apart of, in the church.
 
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Mark Quayle

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That is ridiculous and I always reprove someone who says that if you believe *insert doctrinal issue here that does not challenge that one must believe in Jesus Christ in order to be saved* then you are not saved. Secondary issues such as cessationism vs. continuism, calvinist vs. arminian, baptized vs. unbaptized, sprinkling vs. fully immersed, do not affect salvation at all and therefore should not cause such a rift. We have so many bigger fish to fry outside of this tired argument. Jesus says to believe, so just believe! Whether it ultimately saves us, or whether God already knew and predestined it is of no consequence! Not when we have so-called ministers and "Christians" telling everyone that we are all saved in the end so live life how you see fit and you'll go to heaven no matter what. Believe in whatever God you want because we will all end up in heaven, those who don't believe and live a life of evil will have to traverse through Hell being refined by its fire into the pure creation God intended. These are the doctrines that should be separating the wheat from the chaff, that should be causing division, for lack of a better word because one can't exactly separate from that which they are not apart of, in the church.

Not sure if that was addressed to the OP or to the last post before your post, or to whom.

Jesus says to believe, so just believe! Whether it ultimately saves us, or whether God already knew and predestined it is of no consequence!

But see, there's the problem! You say it is of no consequence. How can that be if true believers on both sides see huge importance there?

If they actually believe the same basics, i.e. if the Spirit of God inside them is the source of their faith, their minds trail behind the truth the Spirit knows and teaches them. The Spirit within one is in agreement with the Spirit within the other, but the minds are not in agreement as to what the basics mean. That doesn't mean anyone should stop considering the implications of what they say! God makes much of our words. "The Word of God" is a huge play on words, and to the degree we miss out on the meaning of the Gospel, we miss out on the blessings of the Word of God, and on the knowledge of the truth, even in coming to know God himself better. There is much in the Bible to admonish us to seek the truth. Both sides do what they can to present words of truth. It IS important. The disagreement is fruitful. (Admittedly, the antagonism, perhaps not so much.)

When the Arminian says, "God is sovereign", there is an awful lot of intellectual meaning and history behind the words, that is not shared by the Calvinist, and vice-versa. The rich feeling of the concepts involved are "inspirational" (so to speak), to the degree that some think their very concept is complete and inspired. I can only hope that those with whom I disagree can agree with me that our various concepts are necessarily incomplete, and that though one may be closer to the truth than the other, the words should be as pure as possible: the truth does not fit to our concepts. We must attend to IT.
 
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Mark Quayle

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Whether it ultimately saves us, or whether God already knew and predestined it is of no consequence!
(Tacking this on here, instead of onto my last response to you, since there were indelible problems with the code or something.)

In my years-long struggle against the sinfulness I find within myself, my study of the Scriptures, in prayer and pursuit of Christ, I OFTEN found myself asking God, in tears and groanings, if some idea or other I find can possibly be true. Some such ideas sink into forgetfulness, but most are held just outside the edges of usefulness for later consideration. A preponderance of the latter, related in some category, are what have led me into certain precious understandings, for example into what I only later came to know as Reformed Theology.

There is also much to say against a nebulous, "Just believe", but I doubt, frankly, that you meant it quite like that; but, rather, as simple hyperbole against the value of the debate. What one "just believes" is important.
 
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Halbhh

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There are also Lutherans who reject both of those categories.
Somewhat mysterious, but of interest. Do you mean some small number of individuals, or are you referring to how you see a broader doctrine, and if so would you elaborate? For comparison, I've heard a pastor in a Lutheran church once preach that Hitler would be saved even with all of his sins (seemingly suggested: without even choosing himself to repent of those later sins, such as perhaps by a last second imposed repentance?) because he'd been baptized (as a infant or child), and it was clear much of he congregation didn't agree later when I asked some people what they thought of the bit in the sermon that even Hitler would be in heaven (having been baptized). The more predominate idea from people in the congregation (or the several I talked to at least) was something like Hilter not acting as if he had faith (implied: had lost faith if he'd even ever had it), he'd have lost the resulting salvation that comes through faith, or alternatively, simply that he'd need to have confessed/repented to be restored. In other words, it wasn't an irresistible grace, or else he wasn't predestined. But....of the TULIP pieces, it's very clear from experience of listening that Lutheran sermons can and sometimes do emphasize at various times: T (generally, and with emphasis) -- we are 'sinners', even after being saved, even while improving; U .... let me just search up an article or such.
Here's one:
A Lutheran Evaluation of the Five Points of Calvinism
(of course, this is an individual's view, but will represent some portion of Lutheran theology views)
 
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GreekOrthodox

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Unfortunately, the link you provided didnt work for me and the page was hanging (most likely my end though).

Lutherans would object to Calvinist "LIP" Limited atonement, Irresistible grace, and Perseverance of the saints. Christ died and was resurrected for all, we can resist grace and they don't believe in OSAS.

On the Arminian side, they would reject that we have free-will when it comes to salvation. Basically, we can reject salvation, but we cannot accept salvation, we're passive in that regard.

ADDITION: I'm a former LCMS elder. Converted to EO in 2002
 
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spiritfilledjm

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(Tacking this on here, instead of onto my last response to you, since there were indelible problems with the code or something.)

In my years-long struggle against the sinfulness I find within myself, my study of the Scriptures, in prayer and pursuit of Christ, I OFTEN found myself asking God, in tears and groanings, if some idea or other I find can possibly be true. Some such ideas sink into forgetfulness, but most are held just outside the edges of usefulness for later consideration. A preponderance of the latter, related in some category, are what have led me into certain precious understandings, for example into what I only later came to know as Reformed Theology.

There is also much to say against a nebulous, "Just believe", but I doubt, frankly, that you meant it quite like that; but, rather, as simple hyperbole against the value of the debate. What one "just believes" is important.

I guess, ultimately, what I'm trying to say is that if it's a non-salvation issue, it's fine to discuss and one should learn as much as they can about all the different doctrines. However, if it is not a salvation issue, and one finds themselves getting angry or bitter towards another brother or sister who believes differently than they do, they need to step back from the conversation. In my opinion, nothing was more important to Christ and the New Testament writers when it comes to relationships in the church than staying united and loving each other.
 
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Halbhh

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Unfortunately, the link you provided didnt work for me and the page was hanging (most likely my end though).

Lutherans would object to Calvinist "LIP" Limited atonement, Irresistible grace, and Perseverance of the saints. Christ died and was resurrected for all, we can resist grace and they don't believe in OSAS.

On the Arminian side, they would reject that we have free-will when it comes to salvation. Basically, we can reject salvation, but we cannot accept salvation, we're passive in that regard.
Ok, you may want to try that link/page again later, as it's pretty well written -- and I'm interested in other views about these things just to see how widespread various views are. Here is another Lutheran consideration of the 5 points that I just reviewed (and find lines up so well with my understanding), and I'll excerpt also:

Lutheran view compared to the LIP elements of TULIP:
"L (Limited Atonement)
It is true that Christ died for the church and purchased it with His blood (Eph. 5:25; Acts 20:28). Furthermore, His atoning death does not mean that all people are saved (1 Cor. 1:18). However, Jesus died for all (2 Cor. 5:15).

I (Irresistible Grace)
We agree that God makes us alive by His mighty power, without our aid (Eph. 2:5; John 1:13). But Scripture warns we can resist God’s gracious call (Matt. 23:37; Acts 7:51; 2 Cor. 6:1). And some people do resist God’s grace, or all would be saved (1 Tim. 2:4). Furthermore, God warns us not to resist His grace (2 Cor. 6:1; Heb. 4:7).

P (Perseverance in Grace)
We affirm with Scripture that those who are predestined to salvation cannot be lost but will continue by God’s power to a blessed end (Rom. 8:30; 1 Peter 1:5). Scripture does not teach, however, that those who come to faith cannot lose that faith (Heb. 6:4-6; 10:26-29; Ps. 51:11). God urges His people not to continue in sin but to live in repentance and faith (Rom. 6:1-4)."
https://www.faithlutherancorning.org/lutheran-vs-reformed

This seems pretty much correct to me on the one hand, and on the other hand I don't remember any of the hundreds of sermons I've heard now in Lutheran churches (from several different pastors) disagreeing with any of the above, though these subjects don't really come up, as the sermons are consistently focused of course on teaching from the words of Christ, according to the 3 year lectionary progression through the gospels.
 
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TedT

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My intention is to show that there isn't really much of a difference between Calvinism and Arminism. Both sides admit for example, God is sovereign.

Once the orthodox position on our fall is accepted, the rest of theology is twisted into unholy misunderstanding (some call it blasphemy) and it matters not a whit if the twist is to the left or to the right. To make their theology work, Calvinism denies GOD's justice and Arminianism denies HIS perfect patient love.
 
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Neostarwcc

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There are also Lutherans who reject both of those categories.

I didnt include the Lutherans because Lutherans believe many of the same things too. They believe God is sovereign they believe in the 5 Solas and all of the crucial points of Protestantism. Really what is causing division among Protestants isn't really necessary. Instead of arguing on theology we should be spending more time on how we're similar.
 
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GreekOrthodox

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Lutheran view compared to the LIP elements of TULIP:

https://www.faithlutherancorning.org/lutheran-vs-reformed

This seems pretty much correct to me on the one hand, and on the other hand I don't remember any of the hundreds of sermons I've heard now in Lutheran churches (from several different pastors) disagreeing with any of the above, though these subjects don't really come up, as the sermons are consistently focused of course on teaching from the words of Christ, according to the 3 year lectionary progression through the gospels.

These are accurate with the Book of Concord, and the church in the link is LCMS, one of the Confessional Churches.
 
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Gregory Thompson

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Why is Protestantism always divided into two categories?
Its because it is a false dichotomy based on neo-platonic thought.

False dichotomies have a tendency to make every thing about them, so that's why it seems protestantism is divided into two categories, when it is not.
 
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Fervent

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It's not? There are plenty of protestants who adhere to neither Calvinist nor Remonstrant soteriology. In fact, most "Arminians" do not actually carry Arminiast positions though some erroneously adopted the term based on the constant accusation of Arminianism by Calvinists.
 
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BobRyan

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My intention is to show that there isn't really much of a difference between Calvinism and Arminism. Both sides admit for example, God is sovereign. In fact, all Christians share that belief. Mainly because you can't even open the Bible to page 2 without it talking about our Lord's Sovreignty.

Agreed.

God sovereignly chose the "whosoever will" free will system.

Arminians don't talk about the subject much but they also believe In a form of predestination.

Arminians believe in foreknowledge and predestined based on foreknowledge "whom he foreknew He predestined"

What angers me though is when there is this division in beliefs, we tend to call people who don't believe in what we do as unsaved. The only difference? Unless we're talking about hyper calvinists we Calvinists don't call another denomination not saved. The Arminianists will attack the Calvinists and Catholics but Calvinists believe Arminians and Catholics can be saved as they would be saved the same way as anybody else. By.grace through faith and faith is a gift from God.

There are saved Christians in all denominations. But you can also find slicing and dicing as you say above -- for example I have a thread here about Orthodox liturgy that requires Catholics wanting to join the orthodox church - to publically address a list of very specific Catholic doctrines and declare each one of them to be renounced heresy.
 
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BobRyan

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For it is impossible to truly come to Christ without a regenerate heart.

Not according to Rom 10. In Romans 10:9-11 the person first chooses to believe and confess then the regeneration takes place.

Without God's intervention we all would have perished. But luckily God gives his own a heart of flesh.

True - God "intervenes" supernaturally by "drawing all mankind to Him" John 12:32... not just "some".

that drawing does enable choice but does not regenerate until the Romans 10 steps are taken by the individual.
 
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Strong in Him

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For it is impossible to truly come to Christ without a regenerate heart.

We come to Christ and then get a regenerate heart; 2 Corinthians 5:17, "If anyone is in Christ he is a new creation."

I am re-reading the book, "Run, baby, run" by Nicky Cruz.
Nicky was a hardened gang member, he had fought, stabbed and even shot at, many, and was involved in sex and drugs. He was saved after he heard David Wilkerson preaching on the streets about God's love. They went to a rally and Nicky, and other gang members, were asked to take the collection. They literally planned on taking the collection and making a fool out of David, but Nicky realised that David trusted him - a feeling he had never known before. Long story short, Nicky was baptised in the Spirit soon after that, and only weeks later was in Bible school.
He testified that he was literally made clean and had many fears, sins and desires taken away overnight. All of that happened after he went forward to be prayed for and met Christ; not before. Sure, God was prompting him to go and kneel for prayer; he wouldn't have done it otherwise. But his new, clean, regenerate heart came later.

Without God's intervention we all would have perished. But luckily God gives his own a heart of flesh.

Yes, and this is available to everyone, not just a few.
 
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dms1972

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I am re-reading the book, "Run, baby, run" by Nicky Cruz.
Nicky was a hardened gang member, he had fought, stabbed and even shot at, many, and was involved in sex and drugs. He was saved after he heard David Wilkerson preaching on the streets about God's love. They went to a rally and Nicky, and other gang members, were asked to take the collection. They literally planned on taking the collection and making a fool out of David, but Nicky realised that David trusted him - a feeling he had never known before. Long story short, Nicky was baptised in the Spirit soon after that, and only weeks later was in Bible school.
He testified that he was literally made clean and had many fears, sins and desires taken away overnight. All of that happened after he went forward to be prayed for and met Christ; not before. Sure, God was prompting him to go and kneel for prayer; he wouldn't have done it otherwise. But his new, clean, regenerate heart came later.


I read that book in my teens, and then again some years later. It's a great biography, and the church service with many gang members from rival gangs was thrilling - something happened in Nicky Cruz during that service, but there had been much going on in him from the time he seen one of the rival gang leaders (I cannot remember now who it was) kneeling down in public to pray with David Wilkerson. It left him afraid, he could sense a greater power at work though he didn't know what it was or about the Holy Spirit, and he was afraid of David Wilkerson at first.
 
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