People before Christ from the Old Testament, are they saved?

The customary and historic belief is that those people (Moses, for instance) who were right with God except for the saving works of Christ were not allowed to be in heaven before the Resurrection but were then freed to go to heaven at that point.

The Israelites get a free pass being the chosen people and all. We are grafted into their inheritance from my understanding.

rturner76 said:

The Israelites get a free pass being the chosen people and all. We are grafted into their inheritance from my understanding.

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Why would a Christian think that every Israelite, even known reprobates and people who defied God, will automatically be welcomed into heaven?

Yes, God had/has a chosen people, but that's not to say that every last member of that people, from every point in historic time, is guaranteed salvation.

Albion said:

Why would a Christian think that every Israelite, even known reprobates and people who defied God, will automatically be welcomed into heaven?

Yes, God had/has a chosen people, but that's not to say that every last member of that people, from every point in historic time, is guaranteed salvation.

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I see what you mean. I was under the impression that the children of Abraham are given a blood inheritance of eternal life.

rhern said:

People who died before the resurection, how will they be saved?

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Yes. They are already saved, at least if they believed in Christ when he descended into Sheol and preached to them prior to his Resurrection.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harrowing_of_Hell

Deleted.

rhern said:

People who died before the resurection, how will they be saved?

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Here is something to think about to help you address the questions below:

The cross is foolishness to the nonbeliever, so it takes a lot to show the logic and benefit.

Paul repeats ideas and builds on the previous explanation, so the ideas in Romans’ 5 go back to Ro. 3:25 and even further back to Romans’ 1.

I would at least start with Ro. 3:25

Paul in Ro. 3:25 giving the extreme contrast between the way sins where handle prior to the cross and after the cross, so if they were actually handled the same way “by the cross” there would be no contrast, only a time factor, but Paul said (forgiven) sins prior to the cross where left “unpunished” (NIV), but that also should mean the forgiven “sinner” after the cross were punished.

From Romans 3: 25 Paul tells us: God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. …

Another way of saying this would be “God offers the ransom payment (Christ Crucified and the blood that flowed from Him) to those that have the faith to receive that ransom. A lack of faith results in the refusal of the ransom payment (Christ crucified).

God is not the undeserving kidnapper nor is satan worthy of a ransom, but the unbeliever is himself is holding back the child of God from the Father, that child that is within every one of us.

Paul goes on to explain:

Ro. 3: 25 …He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished

I do not like the word “unpunished” but would use “undisciplined”.

So prior to the cross repentant forgiven people (saved individuals) could not be fairly and justly disciplined for the rebellious disobedience, but after the cross if we repent (come to our senses and turn to God) we can be fairly and justly disciplined and yet survive.

God and Christ would have personally preferred Christ’s blood to remain flowing through his veins, but it is I that need to have that blood outside of Christ flowing over me and in me cleansing my heart. I need to feel that blood and know it is cleansing me.

If you think about the crucifixion, you would realize, at the time Christ was on the cross, God in heaven out of empathy/Love for Christ would be experience an even greater pain than Christ. We as our Love grows and our realization of what we personally caused Christ to go through will feel the death blow to our hearts (Acts 2:37). We will experience the greatest pain we could experience and still live, which is the way God is disciplining us today and for all the right reasons because Loving discipline correctly accepted results in a wondrous relationship with our parent. (We can now comfortably feel justified before God.)

I use the NIV all though I do not like any translation, NIV does what I consider to be the best translation of the Greek word πάρεσις (paresis) which most just translate with “past over”, since the NIV translates it “left the sins committed beforehand unpunished”. The Greek word Πάρεσις is only found here in the Greek New Testament and not used at all in the Greek Old Testament, so it is difficult to translate, but really not that hard, since secular koine Greek manuscripts can be found using πάρεσις. It is used to describe when a lender, on rare occasions, does not put a debtor in prison to try and get some of his money back from friends and relatives of the debtor, before releasing him. So, in the context of Ro. 3:25 the forgiven sinners prior to the cross were not disciplined/punished for their sins but were just forgiven and let go. Since Paul is making his argument showing a huge contrast between Jews before and after the cross, those after the cross would have to go through some “punishment” or better expressed as some disciplining to be a contrast.

There are lots of excellent benefits from being disciplined, but prior to Christ’s crucifixion, there was no way to fairly/justly discipline a rebellious disobedient repentant child seeking forgiveness and allow the child to live. The disciplines were just too hard being banishment or physical death. By Christ going to the cross, we can now be “crucified with Christ”, empathetically. How severe of a disciplining is this for Christians and how would it compare to the pain and sorrow God went through while Christ was crucified?

Notice there is no language suggesting the sins are put on hold, rolled forward or dealt with later, but are “passed over”/left unpunished.

rhern said:

People who died before the resurection, how will they be saved?

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Romans 6:10
For the death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God.

Hebrews 9:26-28

For then he would have had to suffer repeatedly since the foundation of the world. But as it is, he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment, so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him.

All the saved and holy people of the Old Testament fully trusted God, as Hebrews 11 teaches. God revealed the Gospel to, for example, Abraham with the promise that all peoples of earth would be blessed through following his example of trusting God's promise and being justified by repentant faith.

Albion said:

The customary and historic belief is that those people (Moses, for instance) who were right with God except for the saving works of Christ were not allowed to be in heaven before the Resurrection but were then freed to go to heaven at that point.

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This is also my belief, Jesus went to sheol to Abrahams bosom and set the believers free and took them to heaven.

IntriKate said:

This is also my belief, Jesus went to sheol to Abrahams bosom and set the believers free and took them to heaven.

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What scripture are you using for this idea?

rhern said:

People who died before the resurection, how will they be saved?

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Through faith they are saved.It will be counted to them as righteousness.
Blessings.

rhern said:

People who died before the resurection, how will they be saved?

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They were saved the only way anyone is saved, through faith in (the Promise) Jesus Christ (Genesis 12:3), manifested in faithfulness.

rhern said:

People who died before the resurection, how will they be saved?

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They were counted as righteous based upon their faith.
Romans 4
3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.”

bling said:

What scripture are you using for this idea?

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This is one rendition of that belief along with the relevant Bible verses--
GOT A QUESTION (biblepath.com)

Albion said:

This is one rendition of that belief along with the relevant Bible verses--
GOT A QUESTION (biblepath.com)

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1 Peter 4:6 For this is the reason the gospel was preached even to those who are now dead, so that they might be judged according to human standards in regard to the body, but live according to God in regard to the spirit.

The information Peter is conveying about the “now dead” suggest they recently died and not those dead 4000 years earlier. By the time of Peter’s letter, there were those who accepted or rejected the gospel who were now dead.

Eph. 4:8 This is why it says:

“When he ascended on high,

he took many captives

and gave gifts to his people.”

This poetic quote from Psalm 68:18, is not talking about Christ descending to hates, but Christ leaving heaven and descending to earth. Eph. 4:9…

“ he also descended to the lower, earthly regions…”



The gifts are to people on earth: “…Christ himself gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the pastors and teachers, 12 to equip his people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up…”

2 Corinthians 12:2-4 talks about a vision of a man going to heaven, so what does that have to do with hate?

Daniel 12:1-2 “At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people—everyone whose name is found written in the book—will be delivered. 2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt. 3 Those who are wise will shine like the brightness of the heavens, and those who lead many to righteousness, like the stars for ever and ever. 4 But you, Daniel, roll up and seal the words of the scroll until the time of the end. Many will go here and there to increase knowledge.”

I do not know anyone who equates this the three days Christ was in the tomb, but it does seem to be referring to the destruction of Jerusalem and the Jews only.

Look at For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit, in which he went and proclaimed to the spirits in prison, because they formerly did not obey, when God’s patience waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through water. (1 Pet. 3:18–20)

There are lots of “general” issues here with Jesus going to those who Noah preached to like: Why just this group and not everyone who died and these are people who already “did not obey” and Noah preached in the Spirit for a long time.

What “Spirit” is Noah using to preach to these people, if it is not also the Spirit of Christ?

Looking at the context of Peter we have obeying the Spirit or judgement will come upon you, which is what Noah preached and a huge number of them went to hell.

We like everything to be in chronological order, but that is not the way Peter wrote and it is thought most people at the time were writing themes and not keeping to the chronological order so this would not have to mean this preaching happened after Christ’s death, but when Christ was in the Spirit, which He was in the Spirit at Noah’s time.

Hebrews 11:7 By faith Noah, when warned about things not yet seen, in holy fear built an ark to save his family. By his faith he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness that is in keeping with faith.

2 pt. 2:5 if he did not spare the ancient world when he brought the flood on its ungodly people, but protected Noah, a preacher of righteousness, and seven others;

bling said:

1 Peter 4:6 For this is the reason the gospel was preached even to those who are now dead, so that they might be judged according to human standards in regard to the body, but live according to God in regard to the spirit.

The information Peter is conveying about the “now dead” suggest they recently died and not those dead 4000 years earlier. By the time of Peter’s letter, there were those who accepted or rejected the gospel who were now dead.

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I noticed that problem with the Peter passage also, but I didn't want to get into cutting, omitting, and editing the material when the request was basically that the relevant verses be listed.

The way that issue has normally been presented is that the souls of the just who were pre-Christ could not go to heaven prior to his sacrifice on the cross, but that they were covered by it when it was accomplished.

There were other websites that I could have chosen but they aren't as tidy as that particular one seemed to be. If you are a reader who's interested in more than a quick reply, there is a lot more that's in the same general vein.

Albion said:

I noticed that problem with the Peter passage also, but I didn't want to get into cutting, omitting, and editing the material when the request was basically that the relevant verses be listed.

The way that issue has normally been presented is that the souls of the just who were pre-Christ could not go to heaven prior to his sacrifice on the cross, but that they were covered by it when it was accomplished.

There were other websites that I could have chosen but they aren't as tidy as that particular one seemed to be. If you are a reader who's interested in more than a quick reply, there is a lot more that's in the same general vein.

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I really think Paul explains it very well in Ro. 3:25.
This does get into the whole subject of atonement, which I tend to differ with most people on, but with many words and scripture can explain it starting with Lev. 5