They Finally Just Out and Said It....

bekkilyn said:

Because scientists all agree with one another on everything?

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Scientific consensus is a thing.

bekkilyn said:

Is it also the job of scientists to crush any opinions or views that differ from theirs regardless of how wise or ridiculous?

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They aren’t politicians. Do you know any scientists? They are, for the most part, people who seek the truth as an occupation.

bekkilyn said:

And who decides whether or not a given scientist, especially one under employment of say, big pharma, or perhaps a major tobacco, or some corporation like Exxon, and the like, are going to be presenting the rest of us with good science or with the "science" that they are told to give us by their employers?

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. Other scientists. Peer review is also a thing.

It isn’t wise to rely on corporate scientists. Look for consensus and peer review.

bekkilyn said:

I just don't know if that 20-year-old YouTube intern has been trained to make these sorts of decisions on behalf of the other people who aren't even given a choice.

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I have no idea what you’re referring to.

Pavel Mosko said:

They have said this sort of thing before. Like when Hilary's emails were hacked and released to the public, I seem to recall them saying something like this. I wish I could I find a video clip but what I recall they said/implied that the public did not have the legal or constitutional right to read them. (Which is false, we have the Freedom of Information Act for that). But they somehow did being the press etc. So their message is don't read them, we will read them doing our job, and if there is something really important in there we will tell you.

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Also interesting is, remember, it’s illegal to possess these stolen documents. It’s different for the media. So everything you learn about this, you’re learning from us.

bekkilyn said:

Some of it may be perhaps, but who decides?

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Companies do, informed by consultation with subject matter experts.

You draw up broad guidelines, add specific recommendations on actions to take when information violates those guidelines and apply.

Then, based on feedback and continued subject matter expert consultation, you refine those guidelines, and tailor the specific recommendations to account for changing situations or information.

This stuff isn't difficult to do. It's not even that hard to do well. It's just time consuming, resource consuming and (worst of all) expensive.

bekkilyn said:

The 20 year old YouTube intern?

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If that's who is charged with implementation, then yes.

That 20 year old intern is like a private in the army. It's not their job make the battle plans or develop the grand strategic vision. It's their job to delete the enemy.

bekkilyn said:

Or maybe, just maybe, people can make their own decisions for good or for bad.

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"A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky dangerous animals and you know it."

Hyperindividualised notions of personal responsibility tend to get quashed when faced with novel airborne pathogens that have led to a pandemic that has wiped out literally millions.

The US response to COVID-19 was, in many ways, execrable. In the developed world, my thinking it that only the UK has done worse [and at least they acknowledged that].

However, the substandard nature of the US response has only been made worse by the poorly informed, and those armed with malformed information and deliberate misinformation, choosing to spread that through social media. Topped with this weird libertarian/Randian/hyperindividualised inferiority complex about "freedoms" and absent notions of social contracts.

Ana the Ist said:

The reality is though, that could just as easily apply to a very wide variety of topics....or even just current events. Most people don't understand the complexities of self defense laws for example. Ultimately, one has to choose a source they trust....and get the facts wrong whenever that source does....or read from a variety of sources and try to approximate the truth from the aggregate of information.

I think too many people do the first because it's easy to find a source that confirms your own biases....and the second requires far more effort and uncertainty.

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Exactly right (WMDs being an excellent case in point). As I said in another thread, we generally, and immediately, go with an instinctive call. A gut reaction. Often for reasons of which we are unaware. And then go searching for information that backs it up.

It's quite a psychological struggle to go against that initial instinctive call. I think we fail most of the time. Me included.

Bradskii said:

If it's a medical decision then why not go with the chief medical officer for your state/country. If you are concerned that they may be being influenced by the state/country government, then check other states and governments which have governments that lean the opposite way to yours. If there's consensus, then you have your answer.

An engineer for an aeronatical company may say that their plane is safe. But I'd prefer to listen to the Civil Aviation Authority. And if they say it's safe as do the equivalent bodies in a dozen other countries, then I'm buying me a ticket. Who on earth does their own research on aircraft safety? Or cars? Or bridges? Or cancer cures?

Or covid...

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Isn't that also a part of doing your own research? Just about everything here in the U.S. has been politicized these days so you have to look into whether or not they're possibly just parroting whatever political party is in office and/or following that agenda, or if there some sort of conflict of interest, i.e. they really want you to take this remedy for something, but their family has a lot of connections and owns a lot of shares in that particular industry, etc. Then you go to look for some of this stuff, or just want to hear other "regular people's" opinions on an issue only to find that it's being censored because they don't want you to know about those family connections or whatever and you end up having to go outside your own country for news or what-have-you to get more honest reporting. I'm not just talking about COVID but about things in general.

No one is going to care more about your own health and medical needs and other needs than you do, and that includes your medical experts who may not want to even give you 5 minutes of their time before they're pushing you out the door with a prescription and some free samples, some with very major side effects, and they've barely spent any time on your diagnosis. Even in my own family experience, my dad's appendix ruptured because the doctor kept misdiagnosing him with the stomach flu. You can't just assume that just because someone is an "expert" that they have your best interests in mind especially when everything is political and years have been spent building up an environment of division and mistrust.

tall73 said:

Also interesting is, remember, it’s illegal to possess these stolen documents. It’s different for the media. So everything you learn about this, you’re learning from us.

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Haha that part slipped my mind.

Their only ability to read the documents would come from the Constitution, and the Constitution only gave freedom of the press as a power to keep the people informed so they can make educated decisions so their position makes no sense, but leave it to liberals to consider themselves your betters and therefore having more rights and privileges than the general public. Freedom of the press is a freedom to publish/broadcast materials that people in government would rather you didn't (Their screw ups, crimes etc. ) and this definitely qualifies.

Sparagmos said:

Scientific consensus is a thing.

They aren’t politicians. Do you know any scientists? They are, for the most part, people who seek the truth as an occupation.

. Other scientists. Peer review is also a thing.

It isn’t wise to rely on corporate scientists. Look for consensus and peer review.


I have no idea what you’re referring to.

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And just where are you going to get any of this information if you don't do your own research? Or do you really think that a regular person can turn on Fox News or CNN and peer review studies are being genuinely analyzed and discussed so that regular people can be well-informed in order to make decisions.

But what we *do* have is the "one guy" deciding what's best for everyone and cracking down on anything that goes against it and everyone is just supposed to trust that it's true without question. No other views, opinions, or a ideas allowed or you get censored or cancelled.

And what happens when the scientists themselves are getting cancelled because they disagree with the popular ideology of the day like for example when they promote the fact that being a woman or a man is based on basic biology and not on people's feelings. (Oh but that's different...we should be able to promote the feelings as fact that humans can legitimately consider themselves zebras because they feel very strongly about it and they've felt like zebras all their lives, but shouldn't have any feelings or questions whatsoever when it comes to injecting something into their own bodies or into their children.)

Ana the Ist said:

On here, I've seen multiple posters reject any story that comes from a source even mildly right leaning....despite the facts being verifiable. It happened twice to me in one week.

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Only twice in a whole week?!

Tsk! Tsk!

Must try harder!

Sparagmos said:

Scientific consensus is a thing.

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A quick perusal of the history of science would tell you very quickly, that science has never been done by consensus, and never will be. And I don't know why anyone who is properly trained in scientific research would think that 'Scientific consensus is a thing'. Perhaps they believed all the lies told by scientifically illiterate politicians and the MSM.

Incorrect ideas, theories and hypotheses aren't defeated by silencing those who disagree. They are defeated by open debate, and challenging those ideas, theories, and hypotheses until only the best idea, theory, or hypothesis remains. That's not happening with covid and covid vaccines. Many esteemed scientists have been sidelined and ignored by politicians and the MSM, and banned from sharing their views on sites such as YouTube.

Keep believing all the 'scientific consensus' guff if you like. You will eventually be very disappointed.

Sparagmos said:

They aren’t politicians. Do you know any scientists? They are, for the most part, people who seek the truth as an occupation.

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Scientific research generally works very well, until money and/or politics gets involved. If you want to understand what can go wrong, reading this book would be a good start:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Bad-Pharma-How-Medicine-Broken/dp/000749808X

‘Bad Science’ hilariously exposed the tricks that quacks and journalists use to distort science, becoming a 400,000 copy bestseller. Now Ben Goldacre puts the $600bn global pharmaceutical industry under the microscope. What he reveals is a fascinating, terrifying mess.

Doctors and patients need good scientific evidence to make informed decisions. But instead, companies run bad trials on their own drugs, which distort and exaggerate the benefits by design. When these trials produce unflattering results, the data is simply buried. All of this is perfectly legal. In fact, even government regulators withhold vitally important data from the people who need it most. Doctors and patient groups have stood by too, and failed to protect us. Instead, they take money and favours, in a world so fractured that medics and nurses are now educated by the drugs industry.

The result: patients are harmed in huge numbers.

Ben Goldacre is Britain’s finest writer on the science behind medicine, and ‘Bad Pharma’ is the book that finally prompted Parliament to ask why all trial results aren’t made publicly available – this edition has been updated with the latest news from the select committee hearings. Let the witty and indefatigable Goldacre show you how medicine went wrong, and what you can do to mend it.

Sparagmos said:

But you said you weren’t consuming that stuff. So how do you know?

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When I visit people, they often have the TV on. That’s basically the only time I watch it. But the glimpses here and there are enough to tell me that the news is no longer about helping people understand what is happening in the world. Maybe it never has been… Sometimes I pick up a scrap of newspaper we use as wrapping and scan it visually. Same thing.

It’s safer to let your senses tell you what is happening in the world, Sparagmos. Try it, maybe for a week? Put aside your normal sources for news (and any sources), just live, and see what happens.

Ana the Ist said:

Stop thinking for yourself!

These four words are helping spread vaccine misinformation - CNN

CNN doesn't want you doing your own research....after all, they think you're too dumb to do your own research.

It's nice to see CNN outright admit this is what they think of their readers.

They aren't alone though....

Opinion | Don’t Go Down the Rabbit Hole

Stop thinking critically! That's just going to lead you to more lies. The NYT knows that their readers don't need to think critically....they can't do it right anyway.

Personally, I think both CNN and the NYT have nothing to worry about. Their audience doesn't do their own research and definitely stopped thinking critically years ago. On here, I've seen multiple posters reject any story that comes from a source even mildly right leaning....despite the facts being verifiable. It happened twice to me in one week.

Thoughts?

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Just like Orwell's 1984, they are trying to tell you that you are insane because you believe 2+2=4.

bekkilyn said:

And just where are you going to get any of this information if you don't do your own research? Or do you really think that a regular person can turn on Fox News or CNN and peer review studies are being genuinely analyzed and discussed so that regular people can be well-informed in order to make decisions.

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"Do your own research" implies dismissing the research of scientists in favor of your own scientific research. The problem with that is that non-scientists can’t do scientific research any more than a non-surgeon can perform brain surgery. Doing the research to find out what the consensus of the scientific community is, is another matter and is not difficult at all. One can start with their own doctor and then look at established, well respected scientific institutions and publications. Google makes that quite easy.

bekkilyn said:

But what we *do* have is the "one guy" deciding what's best for everyone and cracking down on anything that goes against it and everyone is just supposed to trust that it's true without question. No other views, opinions, or a ideas allowed or you get censored or cancelled.

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. I don’t have any idea what you’re talking about. Every country and state has different COVID protocols. There is no one person deciding, that’s nonsensical.

bekkilyn said:

And what happens when the scientists themselves are getting cancelled because they disagree with the popular ideology of the day like for example when they promote the fact that being a woman or a man is based on basic biology and not on people's feelings.

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Wow, you really spend a lot of time thinking about transgenderism. You repeatedly bring it up in threads about other stuff. Why are you so fixated on it?

anna ~ grace said:

When I visit people, they often have the TV on. That’s basically the only time I watch it.

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. And from those "few glimpses" you drew a very specific conclusion: that "Beijing-think" is being used. Middle-school teachers expect more in-depth research from their students before drawing conclusions.

anna ~ grace said:

It’s safer to let your senses tell you what is happening in the world, Sparagmos. Try it, maybe for a week? Put aside your normal sources for news (and any sources), just live, and see what happens

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. My senses? Do you go to a doctor who never went to med school or studied medicine but uses her "senses?" Do you take your car to a mechanic who just uses his "senses?" You sound like you have no respect for scholarship or people who master a craft.

JustSomeBloke said:

A quick perusal of the history of science would tell you very quickly, that science has never been done by consensus, and never will be. And I don't know why anyone who is properly trained in scientific research would think that 'Scientific consensus is a thing'. Perhaps they believed all the lies told by scientifically illiterate politicians and the MSM.

Incorrect ideas, theories and hypotheses aren't defeated by silencing those who disagree. They are defeated by open debate, and challenging those ideas, theories, and hypotheses until only the best idea, theory, or hypothesis remains. That's not happening with covid and covid vaccines. Many esteemed scientists have been sidelined and ignored by politicians and the MSM, and banned from sharing their views on sites such as YouTube.

Keep believing all the 'scientific consensus' guff if you like. You will eventually be very disappointed.

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I think you misunderstood what I meant by scientific consensus.

Sparagmos said:

My senses? Do you go to a doctor who never went to med school or studied medicine but uses her "senses?" Do you take your car to a mechanic who just uses his "senses?" You sound like you have no respect for scholarship or people who master a craft.

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I suggest you try it, Sparagmos. Turn off the media (all media), for a week. See how you feel. Nothing left, right, or center. Just tune it out.