IS ISRAEL IN THE NEW COVENANT GOD'S CHURCH?

bbbbbbb said:

Out of curiosity, how new is the New Covenant?

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What do you think the new covenant is?

bbbbbbb said:

That was not my question. In case you wish me to reiterate it, I asked you how new you think the New Covenant is.

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I am happy to have a friendly discussion with you but can I ask you why do you expect me to answer all your questions in all the discussions we have had in the past in different thread topics while you choose not to answer my questions to you? A discussion is two ways is it not? It is not important as to how old the new covenant is in my view, it is more important if we have personally entered into God's new covenant promise through faith.

bbbbbbb said:

Ummm. I posed my question first.

Thank you for answering. I expected that you would respond in this manner. In your view it seems that the New Covenant is not significantly new, nor is it important to you. Fair enough.

I appreciate how the letter to the Hebrews spells out how radically new the New Covenant actually is:

1. The Law has been replaced by grace.
2. The Levitical priesthood has been replaced by the Melchizedek priesthood consisting of one and only one priest, Jesus Christ, who lives forever to make intercession for us.
3. We have confidence to enter into God's presence, not because of our keeping the Law, but because of the perfect sacrifice of Jesus Christ for our sins.
4. Jesus Christ is seated at the right hand of the Father this very moment, not engaged in an "Investigative Judgment" but interceding for His people.
5. We have a priest from the tribe of Judah, who is also king - something that was forbidden by the Law.
6. There is now an eternal Sabbath rest for God's people in the person and work of Jesus Christ.
7. None of the Old Covenant saints entered into that rest, but all these died in faith, without receiving the promises, but having seen them and having welcomed them from a distance, and having confessed that they were strangers and exiles on the earth. . . . . .so that apart from us they would not be made perfect.

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Well sadly dear friend what you expected is wrong and there is no where that I have said that the new covenant is not new so please do not pretend that I have and then try and build strawman arguments no one is arguing about. This is why I asked you what do you think the new covenant is? Do you know? BTW, if it might be helpful, in point 6-7, there is no such thing as an eternal Sabbath in Hebrews 4 although it is true that God's 4th commandment is an everlasting covenant *Exodus 31:16-17 that will be continued to be kept in the new earth *Isaiah 66:22-23 and God's people have already entered into Gods' Sabbath rest through faith in God's Word (see Hebrews 4:1-5) while Hebrews 11 is not talking about the Sabbath it is talking about the true promised land.

Take Care.

bbbbbbb said:

I appreciate how the letter to the Hebrews spells out how radically new the New Covenant actually is:

1. The Law has been replaced by grace.
2. The Levitical priesthood has been replaced by the Melchizedek priesthood consisting of one and only one priest, Jesus Christ, who lives forever to make intercession for us.
3. We have confidence to enter into God's presence, not because of our keeping the Law, but because of the perfect sacrifice of Jesus Christ for our sins.
4. Jesus Christ is seated at the right hand of the Father this very moment, not engaged in an "Investigative Judgment" but interceding for His people.
5. We have a priest from the tribe of Judah, who is also king - something that was forbidden by the Law.
6. There is now an eternal Sabbath rest for God's people in the person and work of Jesus Christ.
7. None of the Old Covenant saints entered into that rest, but all these died in faith, without receiving the promises, but having seen them and having welcomed them from a distance, and having confessed that they were strangers and exiles on the earth. . . . . .so that apart from us they would not be made perfect.

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Repetition not responsive to the post that already responds to this.

Here lets go the extra mile if it might be helpful.

bbbbbbb said:

I appreciate how the letter to the Hebrews spells out how radically new the New Covenant actually is

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Yes me to. I really love how the book shows the changes between the covenants. Do you know what Gods' new covenant promise is from the book of Hebrews and where it comes from?

1. The Law has been replaced by grace.

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There is no scripture anywhere that says Grace replaces Gods law. According to the scriptures Gods' law leads us to Gods' grace *see Galatians 3:22-25. God's law shows us that we are all sinners under condemnation and death and leads us to Christ that we might receive Gods grace and forgiveness through faith.

2. The Levitical priesthood has been replaced by the Melchizedek priesthood consisting of one and only one priest, Jesus Christ, who lives forever to make intercession for us.

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Agreed

3. We have confidence to enter into God's presence, not because of our keeping the Law, but because of the perfect sacrifice of Jesus Christ for our sins.

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Agreed

4. Jesus Christ is seated at the right hand of the Father this very moment, not engaged in an "Investigative Judgment" but interceding for His people.

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Being seated at the right hand of God means that Jesus is at the right hand of God or next to God in authority and power *see 1 Peter 3:22; Acts of the Apostles 2:33; 5:31; Romans 8:34; Ephesians 1:20; Hebrews 1:13; Hebrews 8:1 etc.

5. We have a priest from the tribe of Judah, who is also king - something that was forbidden by the Law.

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Agreed According to the scriptures there needed to be a change in the law (not Gods 10 commandments) as it is written concerning Jesus being from the tribe of Judah in Hebrews 7:12, For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law. This was because according to the Mosaic book of the law only those from the tribe of Levi could become priests (e.g. Numbers 1:48-53; Numbers 3:5-10; Numbers 8:19; Deuteronomy 10:8 etc).

6. There is now an eternal Sabbath rest for God's people in the person and work of Jesus Christ.

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There is no such thing as an eternal Sabbath in Hebrews 4 although it is true that God's 4th commandment is an everlasting covenant *Exodus 31:16-17 that will be continued to be kept in the new earth *Isaiah 66:22-23. Hebrews 4:9 says that It remains for the people of God to keep the Sabbath. The sabbath is defined here in the context of Hebrews 4:1-5 as the "seventh day" Sabbath created from the foundation of the world.

7. None of the Old Covenant saints entered into that rest, but all these died in faith, without receiving the promises, but having seen them and having welcomed them from a distance, and having confessed that they were strangers and exiles on the earth. . . . . .so that apart from us they would not be made perfect.

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God's people have already entered into Gods' Sabbath rest through faith in God's Word (see Hebrews 4:1-5) while Hebrews 11 is not talking about the Sabbath it is talking about the true promised land.

Take Care.

bbbbbbb said:

You did ask me what I understand the New Covenant to be and I answered your question, not once, but twice. I highly recommend that you read the letter to the Hebrews for yourself.

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I am still waiting as you have not answered my question. I asked you what is Gods' new covenant promise and what do you think it means? If you do not know the scriptures here it is ok I am happy to provide the scriptures and discuss them with you. Just let me know.

bbbbbbb said:

I understand what you believe and I trust that by now you understand what mainline Christians such as myself believe. I am convinced that neither of us will change our opinions.

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Well for me our opinions do not really matter much. Only Gods' Word is true and we should believe and follow them over the teachings and traditions of men that leads us away from Gods 'Word to break the commandments of God *see Romans 3:4; Acts of the Apostles 5:29; Matthew 15:2-9.

bbbbbbb said:

I have provided the scripture (the letter to the Hebrews) and I trust that you will profit by reading and studying it. Like yourself I am uninterested in opinions and count my own to be virtually worthless. Therefore, it is entirely superfluous for me to proffer my opinions to you or to castigate your opinions.

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Thanks but I was not asking for your general opinion. I was asking for scripture and what you think these scriptures mean in regards to Gods new covenant promises. So we do not talk in circles perhaps it is best if I just tell you the scriptures I am talking about and ask you what you think they mean. I am referring to Hebrews 8:10-12 from Jeremiah 31:31-34 and Ezekiel 36:24-27 which is God's new covenant promise. What do you think these scriptures are talking about?

bbbbbbb said:

You have made it quite clear that you have no regard for human opinions, so why does my opinion matter to you? I certainly share your disinterest in human opinions, preferring scripture by far.

As I said previously, read the book of Hebrews if you want to probe into this issue. Don't waste your time trying to argue with people like myself.

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I think you misunderstood what I have said to you. Did you want to answer the question or not? If you do not want to just say so. You do not have to if you do not want to although I know you will not want to answer the question now that I have shown you the scriptures I was asking about but that is ok it is up to you.

bbbbbbb said:

I see no point at all in continuing any form of interaction with you. Your mind seems to be completely settled on the issue under discussion, as is my own. You have no particular use for my opinion, nor I yours. You have decided not to read Hebrews, although I have read your string of proof texts and know exactly where you want me to go with them. Buddy, I am not going on that ride with you.

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Thanks but I know Hebrews very well and have been posting it to you and will continue doing so here. It is ok if you did not want to answer my question to you as I did not think you would to be honest once I showed you what scriptures I was referring to in relation to God's new covenant promise from Hebrews 8:10-12; Hebrews 10:16-17 from Jeremiah 31:31-34 and Ezekiel 36:24-27. Anyhow no worries. I will post though for those who might be interested even if you are not and pray it might be a blessing to all those who read it.....

GOD'S NEW COVENANT PROMISE....

God's new covenant promise is given and repeated in Hebrews 8:10-12; Hebrews 10:16-17 from Jeremiah 31:31-34 and Ezekiel 36:24-27. The new covenant promise that God made was to his people Israel who in the new covenant scriptures as shown in the OP are now all those who are not born of the flesh but of the Spirit through believing and following what Gods' Word says (the Church both Jew and Gentile) *Romans 9:6-8; Galatians 3:28-29; Romans 2:28-29 etc (see OP). So what is Gods' new covenant promise?

GOD'S NEW COVENANT PROMISE OF SALVATION THROUGH FAITH FROM THE INSIDE OUT.

According to the scriptures Jesus came to magnify the law from the inside out (thoughts and feelings; the mind or heart) quoting Matthew 5:17-32 in fulfillment of *Isaiah 42:21. This is to show that unless our righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the Scribes and Pharisees we can in no way enter into the kingdom of heaven *Matthew 5:20. Jesus is saying the problem runs deeper then outward observance to the 10 Commandments. Evil begins in the heart *Genesis 6:5 which was the reason mankind was destroyed the first time in the flood *Genesis 6:7-13. Breaking God's 10 commandments from the heart Jesus says is what defile a man *Matthew15:18-19. Jesus is saying we can be outwardly perfect and blameless like the Scribes and Pharisee but inwardly like dead mans bones *Matthew 23:27-28. So who can be saved?

Jesus knows us that naturally we do not have the love of God in us *John 5:42. This is why we need to be born again in the Spirit by faith to love God and keep his commandments *1 John 3:6-9. Jesus magnified the law to the inside out to show us that we are all sinners *Romans 3:9-10 in need of a Savior but many do not know the meaning of these scriptures *Matthew 9:12-13. This is the new covenant promise of God’s salvation in those who believe his Word and why we need to be born again through faith *1 John 5:3-4 to be free from sin (breaking any one of God's 10 commandments) *Hebrews 8:10-12; 1 John 3:3-10; John 8:32-36; James 2:10-11; 1 John 2:3-4. If we are not born again into God’s new covenant promise and continue in it we will not enter the kingdom of Heaven *1 John 2:3-4; 1 John 2:3-4; Matthew 24:13.

Righteousness comes from love because love is the fulfilling of God's law and the very expression of what love is *Romans 13:8-10. He that does not love does not know God for God is love * 1 JOHN 4:8. All those who are born again have a new heart to love and follow God *1 John 4:7. This is the new covenant promise *Hebrews 8:10-12. Those who are born again do not practice sin (breaking God's Commandments) *1 John 3:4-9. This is why John finishes on this subject by saying; For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous *1 John 5:3 and is why Jesus says If you love me keep my commandments *Jofn 14:15. UNLESS we are BORN AGAIN *John 3:3-7 in to walk in the Spirit *Romans 8:4; Galatians 5:16 under Gods new covenant promise *Hebrews 8:10-12 to love we will not enter God’s Kingdom *John 3:3-7. We need to be changed from the inside out which is what Jesus is talking about in Matthew 5.

All those who knowingly break any one of God's 10 commandments stand guilty before God of sin *James 2:10-11; Romans 3:19-20. All those who knowingly continue in unrepentant sin when they have been given a knowledge of the truth of Gods’ Word and reject it according to the scriptures will not enter into God's kingdom because they reject the gift of God’s dear son and count the blood of the covenant an unholy thing doing despite to the Spirit of God’s grace *Acts of the Apostles 17:30-31; Hebrews 10:26-27; Romans 6:23.

God's 4th Commandment is one of the 10 Commandments that give us the knowledge of what sin is (Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4. There is no such thing as the 9 commandments or the 613 in God's WORD. The same as there is no scripture that says God's 4th commandment is Abolished and we are now commanded to keep Sunday as a Holy day.

Love establishes God's law in those who believe and follow God's Word (Romans 8:1-4). Obedience to God's law is not how we are saved it is simply the fruit of love because salvation has already been provided through faith *Ephesians 2:8-9; John 14:15; John 15:10-12; John 14:21; Matthew 22:26-40. If our faith has no fruit it is dead *James 2:18-20; 26 and our tree will be cast down and thrown into the fire *Matthew 3:10; 7:19-20; 13:49-50. You cannot separate faith and works according to the scriptures just the same as you cannot separate love and law as obedience is the fruit of faith in God's Word which is how love to God and man is expressed.

This is the new covenant promise *Hebrews 8:10-12; from Jeremiah 31:31-34; Ezekiel 36:24-27; Romans 13:8-10 and is why Jesus says "If you love me keep my commandments. and on these two great commandments of love to God and man hang all the law and the prophets. Unless we are born again from the inside out we will never enter into God's kingdom

According to the scriptures, we are saved by grace through faith and not of ourselves it is a gift of God and not of works lest any man should boast *Ephesians 2:8-9. Obedience to God's law is not how we are saved because all of us have already broken the law and are under it's penalty of condemnation and death *Romans 3:9-23; 2 Corinthians 3:3-11. So it is by God's grace through faith that we are saved through Gods forgiveness of our sins. According to the scriptures, obedience to Gods' law therefore is the fruit of genuine faith of one that is already been given Gods promise of salvation and the fruit of God's work in us *Philippians 2:13 as we believe and follow his word *John 10:26-27. If our faith has no fruit it is dead *James 2:18-20; 26 and our tree will be cast down and thrown into the fire *Matthew 3:10; 7:19-20; 13:49-50; Hebrews 10:26-27. Therefore we do not abolish God's law through faith like some people teach but God's law is established in the heart by faith that works by love *Romans 3:31; 1 John 5:3-4; Romans 13:8-10. According to the scriptures, sin (breaking God' commandments and not believing and following God's Word) is the difference between the children of God and the children of the devil *1 John 3:6-10; Revelation 12:17; Revelation 14:12; Revelation 22:14. Therefore says Jesus you shall know them (who is from God and who is not) by their fruit. *Matthew 7:16-20; John 15:1-6; 1 John 2:3-4.


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THE WORDING FOR GOD'S NEW COVENANT PROMISES....

Ezekiel 36:26-27 [26], A NEW HEART ALSO WILL I GIVE YOU, AND A NEW SPIRIT WILL I PUT WITHIN YOU: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
[27], And I WILL PUT MY SPIRIT WITHIN YOU, AND CAUSE YOU TO WALK IN MY STATUTES, AND YOU SHALL KEEP MY JUDGMENTS, AND DO THEM.

Jeremiah 31:31-34 [31], [31], Behold, the days come, said the LORD, that I WILL MAKE A NEW COVENANT WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL, AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH: [32], Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they broke, although I was an husband to them, said the LORD: [33], But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, said the LORD, I WILL PUT MY LAW IN THEIR INWARD PARTS, AND WRITE IT IN THEIR HEARTS; AND WILL BE THEIR GOD, AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE. [34], And they shall teach no more every man his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, said the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

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Hebrews 8:10-12 [10], BUT THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL; After those days, says the LORD, I WILL PUT MY LAW IN THEIR INWARD PARTS, AND WRITE IT IN THEIR HEARTS; and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: [11], And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest. [12], For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

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Romans 8:4, THAT THE RIGHTEOUSNESS OF THE LAW MIGHT BE FULFILLED IN US, WHO WALK NOT AFTER THE FLESH, BUT AFTER THE SPIRIT.

Romans 13:8, Owe no man anything, but to love one another: FOR HE THAT LOVES HAS FULFILLED THE LAW. [9], FOR THIS, YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, YOU SHALL NOT KILL, YOU SHALL NOT STEAL, YOU SHALL NOT BEAR FALSE WITNESS, YOU SHALL NOT COVET; and if there be any other commandment, IT IS SUMMED UP IN THE SAYING YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF. [10], Love works no ill to his neighbor: THEREFORE LOVE IS THE FULFILLING OF THE LAW.

Romans 8:13, FOR IF YOU LIVE AFTER THE FLESH YOU SHALL DIE: but IF YOU THROUGH THE SPIRIT DO PUT TO DEATH THE DEEDS OF THE BODY, YOU SHALL LIVE. [14], For as many as are LED BY THE SPIRIT of God, they are the sons of God.

Romans 3:31, Do we then make the law of none effect through faith? GOD FORBID: NO, WE ESTABLISH THE LAW.

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If we are not a part of God's Israel through faith in Gods' Word we have no part in Gods' new covenant promise. God never made a covenant with gentiles.

Hope this is helpful.

prophecy_uk said:

Israel would not hear the rest wherewith God causes the weary to rest, they had a covenant, but it was a covenant with death.

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I see so your view is that no one in Israel of the old covenant is saved? Is that biblical? - Nope, because it is written in the new covenant scriptures in Romans 9:6-8 [6], Not as though the word of God has taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: [7], Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall your seed be called. [8], That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed. That is that those who believe and follow what Gods' Word says are counted for the promise. In the new covenant Gods' Israel are now all those who through faith believe and follow what Gods' Word says. Gentiles are now grafted in *Romans 11:13-27 and we are all now one in Christ *Galatians 3:28-29; Romans 2:28-29.

prophecy_uk said:

Now the foundation stone was layed, with judgement to the line, and righteousness and the refuge of lies is swept away. Their covenant of death is disannulled, and that agreement does not stand. There is a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness, that the law made nobody perfect... Isaiah 28:12 To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear. 13 But the word of the Lord was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken. 14 Wherefore hear the word of the Lord, ye scornful men, that rule this people which is in Jerusalem. 15 Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves: 16 Therefore thus saith the Lord God, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste. 17 Judgment also will I lay to the line, and righteousness to the plummet: and the hail shall sweep away the refuge of lies, and the waters shall overflow the hiding place. 18 And your covenant with death shall be disannulled, and your agreement with hell shall not stand; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, then ye shall be trodden down by it.

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You may want to consider the context your disregarding in these scriptures the covenant with death is the drunken lies of false teachings *see Isaiah 28:1-3; 7-8; 14-15; 17-18. The scriptures here are not talking about Israels Mosaic covenant it is talking about a covenant made with the lies of false teachings. It is also a warning to us today not to depart the Word of God to follow man-made teachings and traditions that break the commandments of God *Matthew 15:2-9

prophecy_uk said:

Hebrews 7:18 For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof. 19 For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.

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Once again the context is to the changing the laws of the Priesthood because Jesus was of the tribe of Judah and only Levites could be made Priests *see Hebrews 7:1-17. Your taking scripture out of it's context and trying to read into the scriptures what they do not say and do not teach.

prophecy_uk said:

I have a lot more I can say, if you have any dispute LoveGodsword, come and talk to me.

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Sometimes listening to others can be helpful to our learning and understanding.

Take Care.