For those who believe in female ordination,

Pavel Mosko

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I don't believe in it. The only person I ever saw that made any good points on it is the woman who started the Junia project, talking about the Greco Roman household codes. But overall I think the egalitarian case is extremely weak and based heavily on argumentum ad Misericordia compared to the historical/traditional position which has lots and lots of material supporting it (numerous bible verses, historical examples, Biblical typologies, regulus fidei, and contemporary history showing bad results of those not following it as far as praxis, doctrine etc.)



"The Greek manuscripts used to translate the Bible into English contain neither of these commands.
Ephesians 5:22 is simply an extension of verse 21, which reads, “be subject to one another in the fear of Christ” (NASB).

Subjection, or submission as the word here is translated in many English Bibles, is not meant to go from wives to husbands only. Rather it is meant to go in two directions; it is an attitude of love and humility that we show one another. Similarly, in Ephesians 5:24, Greek manuscripts of the New Testament frame the submission of wives to husbands not as a command, but as a description.

In the New Testament time period, wives were indeed “subject” to their husbands in all things. This notion was supported by household codes found in the writings of Greek philosophers and Jewish teachers alike. These popular codes, however, never dared to suggest that husbands should also submit to wives. The biblical concept of mutual submission was revolutionary."


Is Male Authority “Implied” in the Bible? | The Junia Project
 
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SkyWriting

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What evidence or arguments would you use to show that your position is that of the apostolic (c)atholic church?
Thanks.

Do they use a Bible?

Matthew 7:12
“So whatever you wish that others would do to you, do also to them, for this is the Law and the Prophets.

Luke 6:31
And as you wish that others would do to you, do so to them.

Galatians 5:14
For the whole law is fulfilled in one word: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”

1 Corinthians 13:1-13
If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing. Love is patient and kind; love does not envy or boast; it is not arrogant or rude. It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful; ...

Romans 13:8-10
Owe no one anything, except to love each other, for the one who loves another has fulfilled the law. For the commandments, “You shall not commit adultery, You shall not murder, You shall not steal, You shall not covet,” and any other commandment, are summed up in this word: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.


Matthew 22:39
And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself.
 
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Thatgirloncfforums

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I assume that they do.
Do they use a Bible?

Matthew 7:12
“So whatever you wish that others would do to you, do also to them, for this is the Law and the Prophets.

Luke 6:31
And as you wish that others would do to you, do so to them.

Galatians 5:14
For the whole law is fulfilled in one word: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”

1 Corinthians 13:1-13
If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing. Love is patient and kind; love does not envy or boast; it is not arrogant or rude. It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful; ...

Romans 13:8-10
Owe no one anything, except to love each other, for the one who loves another has fulfilled the law. For the commandments, “You shall not commit adultery, You shall not murder, You shall not steal, You shall not covet,” and any other commandment, are summed up in this word: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.


Matthew 22:39
And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself.
 
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Thatgirloncfforums

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Thank you.
I don't believe in it. The only person I ever saw that made any good points on it is the woman who started the Junia project, talking about the Greco Roman household codes. But overall I think the egalitarian case is extremely weak and based heavily on argumentum ad Misericordia compared to the historical/traditional position which has lots and lots of material supporting it (numerous bible verses, historical examples, Biblical typologies, regulus fidei, and contemporary history showing bad results of those not following it as far as praxis, doctrine etc.)



"The Greek manuscripts used to translate the Bible into English contain neither of these commands.
Ephesians 5:22 is simply an extension of verse 21, which reads, “be subject to one another in the fear of Christ” (NASB).

Subjection, or submission as the word here is translated in many English Bibles, is not meant to go from wives to husbands only. Rather it is meant to go in two directions; it is an attitude of love and humility that we show one another. Similarly, in Ephesians 5:24, Greek manuscripts of the New Testament frame the submission of wives to husbands not as a command, but as a description.

In the New Testament time period, wives were indeed “subject” to their husbands in all things. This notion was supported by household codes found in the writings of Greek philosophers and Jewish teachers alike. These popular codes, however, never dared to suggest that husbands should also submit to wives. The biblical concept of mutual submission was revolutionary."


Is Male Authority “Implied” in the Bible? | The Junia Project
 
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Citizen of the Kingdom

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From Francis Young ~ God’s Presence ~ A contemporary Recapitulation of Early Christianity ~ pg 318-330 ~ Cambridge University Press ~ Lectures at Oxford 2011

The question is posed whether ordination of women as Bishops would simply be a further adaptation of the episcopal office to meet the circumstances of our time and our changed theological understanding of the relationship between men and women in the Church, or whether it would represent a fundamental break with the historic continuity of the episcopate which the Church of England has hitherto sought to maintain.

Understanding why and how women, once leaders in the Jesus movement and in the early church, were marginalized and scapegoated as Christianity became a state religion is crucial if women are to reclaim their rightful, equal place in the church today. Jesus’ message and practise were radically egalitarian in their day and constituted a social revolution that likely provoked His crucifixion. It is high time that the church, which claims to embody His Good News to the world, stop betraying it’s own essential heritage of absolute equality.

In conclusion what we need then is a hermeneutic that eschews the notion that finding precedents, while discovering that living traditions which remain in continuity with the past but ever seeks renewal by following through the logic of it’s trans-cultural instincts. With respect to ordination of women, the heart of the traditional points beyond discriminations, while typology, so far from suggesting that only a male can represent Christ, in fact points to the Christlikeness of every saint, woman or man, as well as offering a specific typological model for women in the priesthood of Mary.
 
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Albion

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The references in Scripture and in history to male clergy are many.

It's much easier, therefore, to assemble such evidence for women in the same positions. There isn't any. The only "evidence" in that direction is logic or what is said to be logical, not Scriptural or historical.
 
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pescador

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Is there some 21st Century reason that women can't be ordained (at least in Western, literate culture)? One has to remember that when Scripture was written society was vastly different. "Women" were considered to be mature as teenagers, suited to do the many chores required for survival: raising children, preparing food, taking care of the household, etc. They were not educated (an unfortunate situation that still exists in some cultures) and, like the great majority, were illiterate.

Skip forward twenty centuries. Many women in Western societies (culturally, not geographically) are fully educated and are prominent in every area of society: medicine, law, business, education, etc. There is no reason for those women to not to be regarded as fully capable in the ministry, just as they are in virtually every other area of society. They should be ordained -- no ifs, ands, or buts.
 
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Paidiske

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First we would need to define what we mean by ordination.

For example, in Scripture we have a woman who is a deacon (Phoebe) and a woman apostle (Junia). Is that evidence of women's ordination (was there a clear understanding of "ordination" in the early church, with some roles recognised as different in quality from others, for example)? Then we would need to argue that ordination as it is practiced today is close enough to early church practice to establish a precedent.

I would argue that there is evidence of women in leadership and teaching and authority positions in the earliest church (as mentioned above, but also prophetesses, itinerant teachers, women presiding over churches which met in their homes, and so on), but less evidence of a clear lay/clerical divide. As that divide become more established, women tended to be excluded from the clerical side of it, although that took longer in some places than in others. I can't possibly rehash all of the sources, textual and archaeological, but the book When Women Were Priests sets out some of the evidence we have, for example, of women serving in various roles we would now consider unambiguously clerical.

So I would argue that we have Scriptural evidence, we have historical evidence, and we have the evidence of the ongoing vocations of women today, all of which point us to ordination not being something from which women must be barred.
 
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