Name one doctrine that is not supported by Scripture.

Thatgirloncfforums said:

There wasn't one Reformation. See below.

Scripture is the pure source and sole norm for the Church by which all other teachers are to be judged.

Luther
Luther was an Augustinian monk. As such, he found himself in the midst of and participating in the theological and philosophical debates of the scholastics, Augustinian versus Dominican versus Franciscan etc. Occam vs Thomas vs Scotus. He was a teacher of Biblical studies and a Pastor. As he was hearing confessions, he became enraged, because his congregation was not performing the full satisfactory penances which he had allotted them, because they had purchased indulgences for themselves and for their relatives in the next town over.
His German prince protected him, because his prince before him even, had banned the indulgence seller from entering into his territory.
Luther posted his talking points, and was summoned to appear before the Papal legate. He was asked to recant and a few months later was issued his first condemnation by the Pope.
Luther's Theses:
https://www.luther.de/en/95thesen.html
Luther burned the condemnation and the Pope called for his arrest. Luther's father confessor whom he derived most of his theology from, released him from his vows so as to not be forced to hand Luther over. His prince continued to protect him in his territory and put him under house arrest where Luther translated the New Testament. Other theologians began to become involved.

Calvinism did not originate in Germany. It came out of Switzerland. There was some early contact between the Calvinists and Lutherans, because John Calvin was influenced by Luther. But the Calvinists were eventually condemned as Nestorians. Calvinism eventually went on to influence the Church of England (Anglicanism). Arminianism came out of Calvinism as a response to particular election. The Anabaptist arose as it's own radical response to Rome.

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All quite true. In addition, the Luther was hardly the first reformer within the Catholic Church. Prior to Luther there were such giants as Hus and Waldo.

Thatgirloncfforums said:

Also, it might be worth noting that the monastic schools were always reforming.

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Also very true.

GodsGrace101 said:

Here's the problem with calling Mary the Mother of God.
When we refer to God, we usually mean God Father, or Yahweh.
God, Yahweh, did not have a mother - God always existed and there was no being before Him.

If we mean Jesus, the Word Incarnate, and we know that He is God,,,then it would seem to be correct.
Except we really don't mean Jesus, do we?

Comment?

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We should. God should be used to refer to all three persons of the Holy Trinity. I think using God to refer to only the Father is dangerous as it can lead one towards a semi-Arian spirituality in which the benefits of Trinitarian thought are lost. We should also pray to all three persons by name. It is important that we read and study the Nicene Creed, which is the CF.com Statement of Faith, and the doctrine of the Trinity, and contemplate God as a union of three persons, the Father unoriginate and the Son and the Spirit uncreated, all three coequal and sharing the same divine essence.

Also, the Chalcedonian and Miaphysite theological principle of Communicatio Idiomatum, which was also heavily used by Lutherans in the Reformation in their dispute with certain Protestant groups which disappeared from the mainstream, and is accepted by most Lutheran, Anglican and other Protestant theologians who study Christology in depth, allows us, because in Christ, who is fully God and fully Man, our human nature is in hypostatic union with the divine nature of the Holy Trinity, without change, comingling, confusion, separation or division, according to Ephesus and Chalcedon, to attribute any properties of one of the two natures to the other. Thus, we can say a man was Transfigured, Resurrected, and Ascended to Heaven, and God was born of the Virgin Mary, and God died on the cross and was buried, or vice versa. This is the amazing truth about the Incarnation of God.

Therefore we should celebrate the Incarnation by calling Mary the Mother of God, and remembering that Christ was both God and Man when we consider His passion and death on the Cross, and His resurrection. The risk that someone could misinterpret us as meaning that Mary was the mother of the Holy Trinity should not concern us, because people will misinterpret anything we say anyway, for the wisdom of God is foolishness to the world.

GodsGrace101 said:

Which God was born?
God Father
or
God Son?

I hope you know that there's a difference between the 3 Persons of the Trinity - even though they are all God.

They each have particular personalities and duties.

God the Father is not God the Son.
Even though they are both God.

The following is accepted by all Christian denominations.




View attachment 307041

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Yes, we understand that. When I refer to God, the Person I am referring to is indicated to some extent by context, but remember, the Trinity is undivided, so whatever Jesus and the Holy Spirit are engaged in, and wherever Jesus is, the Father is there also. The three Persons abide in one Godhood but are not divisions of God.

GodsGrace101 said:

This is also for @Abaxvahl

You had mentioned Strong's concordance...
Here's the page:

Strong's Greek: 3439. μονογενής (monogenés) -- only begotten

in which it states the meaning for Begotten:

single of its kind, only

monogenés: only begotten
Original Word: μονογενής, ές
Part of Speech: Adjective
Transliteration: monogenés
Phonetic Spelling: (mon-og-en-ace')
Definition: only begotten
Usage: only, only-begotten; unique.
HELPS Word-studies
3439 monogenḗs (from 3411 /misthōtós, "one-and-only" and 1085 /génos, "offspring, stock") – properly, one-and-only; "one of a kind" – literally, "one (monos) of a class, genos" (the only of its kind).


As you can see, monogenes means one and only, one of a kind, the only of its kind, unique.

It can also mean born to someone...but in theology it cannot be accepted that Jesus was ever born....except to Mary as a child, as Jesus - NOT as the 2nd person of the Trinity.

Again, we must use the meaning UNIQUE because the 2nd person of the Trinity was never born...
John makes this clear in the beginning of his gospel and also in 1 John.

In the beginning was the Word...the Word already existed in the beginning. John 1:1
We proclaim to you the One who existed from the beginning.....1 John 1:1

John strives to make us understand that Jesus, as the 2nd Person, always existed...
and He has now come in the flesh.

Click to expand...

You are creating a hard division between the human and divine natures of our Lord which is more extreme than the doctrine of Nestorius, rejected at Chalcedon and Ephesus.

Now, Nestorianism is certainly allowed under the CF.com Statement of Faith, because Nestorius and his followers were Nicene Christians, and we have members who follow Nestorian doctrines, however, if you desire to follow the doctrines of Chalcedon and Ephesus, which most Protestant churches follow, and in the case of Chalcedon, even Nestorius acceded to it, you have to understand that the Second Person is Jesus Christ; he was begotten of the Father before all ages, and then became incarnate by putting on our human nature, through his miraculous conception in the womb of the Virgin Mary, who did give birth to the incarnate Word of God.

GodsGrace101 said:

Aha!
And here lies the problem.

I used to teach our faith to kids aged between 8 and 12.
One asked me a very interesting question:
When Jesus was on earth - where was the 2nd Person of the Trinity?

If they're the same person,,,then 1/3 of the Trinity was missing when Jesus was born....

Click to expand...

No, because in Nicene Christianity, in general, the Trinity is undivided. The Father, Son and Holy Ghost are not each 1/3 of of the Trinity but posess the fullness of the Godhead.

Secondly, the Ephesian and Chalcedonian doctrine of Hypostatic Union states that the uncreated divine nature of our Lord was united with the created human nature He assumed during the Incarnation. This union is without change, confusion, comingling, separation or division. The Second Person of the Trinity has, since the Incarnation, united humanity with God.

Furthermore, this is essential to our salvation, because if Jesus were not united with the Second Person, if Jesus was just a man, His crucifixion would not be effectual for our sins, as it would be mere human sacrifice.

In fact, I believe that the Nicene Creed/CF Statement of Faith does prohibit saying the Second Person and Jesus Christ were separate. I am going to paste in the Statement of Faith, because it provides handy Scriptural citations for every clause, so you can see the Early Church did not just make it up.

Take note of the red sections of the Creed and the following Notes added by CF.com; these are Christological, dealing with the nature of Christ, and the Christological the Creed clearly defines Jesus Christ as the second person of the Trinity referred to in John 1:1-18. The blue section is Theo-Patrological, pertaining to God the Father, and the green section is Pneumatological, defining the Holy Spirit. The remaining eschatological, sacramental and ecclesiological sections of the Nicene Creed I color coded in purple, so as to set them apart from the other parts of the Statement of Faith. I placed whitespace between each section.


CF Statement of Faith
The Nicene Creed

We believe in (Romans 10:8-10; 1John 4:15)
ONE God, (Deuteronomy 6:4, Ephesians 4:6)
the Father (Matthew 6:9)
Almighty, (Exodus 6:3)
Maker of Heaven and Earth, (Genesis 1:1)
and of all things visible and invisible. (Colossians 1:15-16)

And in ONE Lord Jesus Christ, (Acts 11:17)
the Son of God, (Mathew 14:33; 16:16)
the Only-Begotten, (John 1:18; 3:16)
Begotten of the Father before all ages. (John 1:2)
Light of Light; (Psalm 27:1; John 8:12; Matthew 17:2,5)
True God of True God; (John 17:1-5)
Begotten, not made; (John 1:18)
of one essence with the Father (John 10:30)
by whom all things were made; (Hebrews 1:1-2)
Who for us men and for our salvation (1Timothy 2:4-5)
came down from Heaven, (John 6:33,35)
and was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary, (Luke 1:35)
and became man. (John 1:14)
And was crucified for us (Mark 15:25; 1Cointhians 15:3)
under Pontius Pilate, (John 19:6)
and suffered, (Mark 8:31)
and was buried. (Luke 23:53; 1Corinthians 15:4)
And the third day He rose again, according to the Scriptures. (Luke 24:1 1Corinthians 15:4)
And ascended into Heaven, (Luke 24:51; Acts 1:10)
and sits at the right hand of the Father. (Mark 16:19; Acts 7:55)
And He shall come again with glory (Matthew 24:27)
to judge the living and the dead; (Acts 10:42; 2Timothy 4:1)
whose Kingdom shall have no end. (2 Peter 1:11)

And in the Holy Spirit, (John 14:26)
the Lord, (Acts 5:3-4)
the Giver of Life, (Genesis 1:2)
Who proceeds from the Father; (John 15:26)
Who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified; (Matthew 3:16-17)
Who spoke through the prophets. (1 Samuel 19:20 ; Ezekiel 11:5,13) In one, (Matthew 16: 18)

And in one holy, (1 Peter 2:5,9)
catholic*, (Mark 16:15)
and apostolic Church. (Acts 2:42; Ephesians 2:19-22)

I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins**. (Ephesians 4:5; Acts 2:38)

I look for the resurrection of the dead, (John 11:24; 1Corinthians 15:12-49; Hebrews 6:2; Revelation 20:5)
and the life of the world to come. (Mark 10:29-30)

AMEN. (Psalm 106:48)

* The word "catholic" (literally, "complete," "universal," or "according to the whole") refers to the universal church of the Lord Jesus Christ and not necessarily or exclusively to any particular visible denomination, institution, or doctrine.

** May be interpreted as baptism is a matter of obedience and not a requirement for salvation or as a regenerating ordinance.

Faith groups and individuals that deny the full, eternal deity of Jesus Christ or His incarnation whereby He, as God, took on human flesh (becoming fully God and fully man in one person), are considered non-Christians at CF. Posts that deny the full, eternal deity of Jesus Christ or His incarnation are considered non-Christian theology and are not allowed in "Christians Only" forums. Discussions in all "Christians Only" forums must be in alignment with Trinitarian beliefs.

Challenging Paul's position as an Apostle of Jesus Christ who (although not one of the original twelve) was sent forth by Christ after his conversion [Acts 9:15-16], or arguing against the inclusion of Paul's writings in the New Testament canon, is not allowed in any "Christians Only" forums (including the Controversial Christian Theology forum). You may disagree on the interpretation and application of his writings, but not their place as canon or Paul as an inspired author of Scripture.

Unorthodox Christian theology may only be discussed in the Controversial Christian Theology forum. These unorthodox topics do not directly oppose the Nicene Creed, but are not considered to be orthodox on CF. These unorthodox topics may not contradict the Nicene Creed. Non-Trinitarianism may only be discussed in the Outreach category forums. Gnosticism may not be discussed in any CF forums. The Controversial Christian Theology forum is open to Christian members only (faith groups list). Unorthodox Christian theological topics include (but are not limited to):

• 
  
  
  • Annihilationism
  • Full Preterism
  • Open Theism
  • Universalism

GodsGrace101 said:

No.
Jesus was on earth.
And the second Person of the Trinity stayed in heaven, or in God, or however you understand that.

I think you said you agree...

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God is omnipresent, and this omnipresence extends to all three persons of the Trinity, including Jesus Christ, our Lord, God and Savior.

Michael Collum said:

I read a doctrine in an orthodox document saying the church is the vine, where the bible says Jesus is.

Replacement doctrines like that are a general problem.

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Actually, that Orthodox document was scriptural, because in 1 Corinthians and elsewhere St. Paul talks about the Church as the Body of Christ. We, the Church Militant, are united with Him in Holy Communion (1 Corinthians 10:1-11:34) , and become partakers of the Divine Nature (2 Peter). Thus the Church is the Vine insofar as it is the Body of Christ, that Jesus Christ our Lord, God and Savior, is the Head of, and by partaking of His Body sacramentally in the Eucharist we are grafted onto His Body, the Vine, which is the Church.

concretecamper said:

Let's see. 2.5 Billion Christian, you named 220 million. Easy math (less than 10%, virtually all Christians.

The scripture you cited say NOTHING about the Filioque. All you posted is scripture that says there is a Holy Spirit.

Fact is, SS people by in large accept Rome's definition, without scriptural backup. ouch!

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Firstly, the Eastern Orthodox Church is the second largest in the world, after the Roman Catholic. Secondly, the number is closer to 350 million, because the Oriental Orthodox and the Church of the East, and most of the Sui Juris Eastern Catholic Christians like the Ukrainian Greek Catholics, the Ruthenian Greek Catholics, the Melkite Catholics, and so on, do not recite the filioque. Especially not the Greek Catholics proper, because the Roman Catholic Church does believe the Filioque if expressed in Greek would be erroneous.

klutedavid said:

The Christ was YHWH, the Creator, the redeemer, born the King of Israel. Lord of the Sabbath. Jesus and the Father are one.

If your looking at Jesus your seeing the Father.

If you hear Jesus your hearing the Father.

If you know Jesus then you know the Father.

No one has ever seen the Father, heard the Father, or even known the Father.

Everything anyone ever knew about God was revealed by the revelation of Jesus.

Jesus is the Lord of heaven and earth.

Everything exists because it was created for Jesus.

John 5:23
So that all will honor the Son even as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.

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This is the doctrine of Nicaea, Ephesus and Chalcedon.

The Liturgist said:

Actually, that Orthodox document was scriptural, because in 1 Corinthians and elsewhere St. Paul talks about the Church as the Body of Christ. We, the Church Militant, are united with Him in Holy Communion (1 Corinthians 10:1-11:34) , and become partakers of the Divine Nature (2 Peter). Thus the Church is the Vine insofar as it is the Body of Christ, that Jesus Christ our Lord, God and Savior, is the Head of, and by partaking of His Body sacramentally in the Eucharist we are grafted onto His Body, the Vine, which is the Church.

Click to expand...

I think the sense where this is correct is also where theosis gets foggy.

RDKirk said:

I think there are distinctions to be made until we run into a wall beyond which we cannot see and can only guess.

The Triune God is Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, three Persons of one Substance.

But Jesus, the Son Incarnate, is both God and yet created human flesh. That created human flesh was certainly born of the woman Mary. But that created human flesh is not all of what the Son had been and now is again, nor is that created human flesh comprehensive of the Father and the Holy Spirit. At least that's not a proposition I can wrap my own head around, nor does scripture seem to support that Jesus, within His created human flesh, is comprehensive of the Father and the Holy Spirit.

Jesus did, after all, pray to the Father, not to Himself. And He did after all speak of the Holy Spirit as One who would come after He had left.

And yet--this is the wall beyond which I cannot see--I will assent that Jesus is fully man and fully God.

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Agreed on all.
Certainly when Jesus was in human form He Himself said that He did not know all things.
He was fully God in substance at this time,,,but not in knowledge.

A problem I'm having with the word Begotten is that it's referring to the 2nd Person of the Trinity, NOT of Jesus -- with which I could agree.

I also agree with you that we could understand the Trinity to a certain point and then we should not force ourselves to go any further.

Thatgirloncfforums said:

(For the anti-Sola Scriptura crowd).

Name one doctrine that was held by the Chalcedon affirming Church that is not supported in Scripture.

I contend that one doesn't exist.

Click to expand...

Interesting thread! Kind of in the eye of the Beholder. What your talking about does fit the view of Apostolic Tradition put forward by saint Vincent Lerins that describers it of having A) Antiquity (a scriptural precident), b) universality, and c) Concensus


But groups like the early Arians, nonTrinitarians Christians would contest traditional teaching on the Trinity as not really being based on Scripture as being more based on things like "the teachings of man", Hellenistic philosophy and such.


There also is a substantial difference in something that can be considered "Scriptural" in principal vs. things that are very literally depicted in scripture.

GodsGrace101 said:

Agreed on all.
Certainly when Jesus was in human form He Himself said that He did not know all things.
He was fully God in substance at this time,,,but not in knowledge.

A problem I'm having with the word Begotten is that it's referring to the 2nd Person of the Trinity, NOT of Jesus -- with which I could agree.

I also agree with you that we could understand the Trinity to a certain point and then we should not force ourselves to go any further.

Click to expand...

As I have said before, John 1:1-18, and the Nicene Creed, which is part of the CF.com Statement of Faith which defines who is a Christian for purposes of posting in Christian areas, which I shared with you previously, as it helpfully provided scriptural references for every part of the Creed, does make it clear that Jesus Christ is the second person of the Trinity, God incarnate. So you really need to come to terms with the Creed; for among other reasons, no Christians or semi-Christian cults in history believed in the Trinity but denied that Jesus Christ was not the second person of the Trinity, and I think it is reasonable to assume that if we are not divinely inspired prophets, but have a doctrinal opinion which is completely unprecedented and which is incompatible with the established doctrine of everyone else, we are probably in error.

The Liturgist said:

No, because in Nicene Christianity, in general, the Trinity is undivided. The Father, Son and Holy Ghost are not each 1/3 of of the Trinity but posess the fullness of the Godhead.

Secondly, the Ephesian and Chalcedonian doctrine of Hypostatic Union states that the uncreated divine nature of our Lord was united with the created human nature He assumed during the Incarnation. This union is without change, confusion, comingling, separation or division. The Second Person of the Trinity has, since the Incarnation, united humanity with God.

Furthermore, this is essential to our salvation, because if Jesus were not united with the Second Person, if Jesus was just a man, His crucifixion would not be effectual for our sins, as it would be mere human sacrifice.

In fact, I believe that the Nicene Creed/CF Statement of Faith does prohibit saying the Second Person and Jesus Christ were separate. I am going to paste in the Statement of Faith, because it provides handy Scriptural citations for every clause, so you can see the Early Church did not just make it up.

Take note of the red sections of the Creed and the following Notes added by CF.com; these are Christological, dealing with the nature of Christ, and the Christological the Creed clearly defines Jesus Christ as the second person of the Trinity referred to in John 1:1-18. The blue section is Theo-Patrological, pertaining to God the Father, and the green section is Pneumatological, defining the Holy Spirit. The remaining eschatological, sacramental and ecclesiological sections of the Nicene Creed I color coded in purple, so as to set them apart from the other parts of the Statement of Faith. I placed whitespace between each section.


CF Statement of Faith
The Nicene Creed

We believe in (Romans 10:8-10; 1John 4:15)
ONE God, (Deuteronomy 6:4, Ephesians 4:6)
the Father (Matthew 6:9)
Almighty, (Exodus 6:3)
Maker of Heaven and Earth, (Genesis 1:1)
and of all things visible and invisible. (Colossians 1:15-16)

And in ONE Lord Jesus Christ, (Acts 11:17)
the Son of God, (Mathew 14:33; 16:16)
the Only-Begotten, (John 1:18; 3:16)
Begotten of the Father before all ages. (John 1:2)
Light of Light; (Psalm 27:1; John 8:12; Matthew 17:2,5)
True God of True God; (John 17:1-5)
Begotten, not made; (John 1:18)
of one essence with the Father (John 10:30)
by whom all things were made; (Hebrews 1:1-2)
Who for us men and for our salvation (1Timothy 2:4-5)
came down from Heaven, (John 6:33,35)
and was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary, (Luke 1:35)
and became man. (John 1:14)
And was crucified for us (Mark 15:25; 1Cointhians 15:3)
under Pontius Pilate, (John 19:6)
and suffered, (Mark 8:31)
and was buried. (Luke 23:53; 1Corinthians 15:4)
And the third day He rose again, according to the Scriptures. (Luke 24:1 1Corinthians 15:4)
And ascended into Heaven, (Luke 24:51; Acts 1:10)
and sits at the right hand of the Father. (Mark 16:19; Acts 7:55)
And He shall come again with glory (Matthew 24:27)
to judge the living and the dead; (Acts 10:42; 2Timothy 4:1)
whose Kingdom shall have no end. (2 Peter 1:11)

And in the Holy Spirit, (John 14:26)
the Lord, (Acts 5:3-4)
the Giver of Life, (Genesis 1:2)
Who proceeds from the Father; (John 15:26)
Who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified; (Matthew 3:16-17)
Who spoke through the prophets. (1 Samuel 19:20 ; Ezekiel 11:5,13) In one, (Matthew 16: 18)

And in one holy, (1 Peter 2:5,9)
catholic*, (Mark 16:15)
and apostolic Church. (Acts 2:42; Ephesians 2:19-22)

I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins**. (Ephesians 4:5; Acts 2:38)

I look for the resurrection of the dead, (John 11:24; 1Corinthians 15:12-49; Hebrews 6:2; Revelation 20:5)
and the life of the world to come. (Mark 10:29-30)

AMEN. (Psalm 106:48)

* The word "catholic" (literally, "complete," "universal," or "according to the whole") refers to the universal church of the Lord Jesus Christ and not necessarily or exclusively to any particular visible denomination, institution, or doctrine.

** May be interpreted as baptism is a matter of obedience and not a requirement for salvation or as a regenerating ordinance.

Faith groups and individuals that deny the full, eternal deity of Jesus Christ or His incarnation whereby He, as God, took on human flesh (becoming fully God and fully man in one person), are considered non-Christians at CF. Posts that deny the full, eternal deity of Jesus Christ or His incarnation are considered non-Christian theology and are not allowed in "Christians Only" forums. Discussions in all "Christians Only" forums must be in alignment with Trinitarian beliefs.

Challenging Paul's position as an Apostle of Jesus Christ who (although not one of the original twelve) was sent forth by Christ after his conversion [Acts 9:15-16], or arguing against the inclusion of Paul's writings in the New Testament canon, is not allowed in any "Christians Only" forums (including the Controversial Christian Theology forum). You may disagree on the interpretation and application of his writings, but not their place as canon or Paul as an inspired author of Scripture.

Unorthodox Christian theology may only be discussed in the Controversial Christian Theology forum. These unorthodox topics do not directly oppose the Nicene Creed, but are not considered to be orthodox on CF. These unorthodox topics may not contradict the Nicene Creed. Non-Trinitarianism may only be discussed in the Outreach category forums. Gnosticism may not be discussed in any CF forums. The Controversial Christian Theology forum is open to Christian members only (faith groups list). Unorthodox Christian theological topics include (but are not limited to):

• 
  
  
  • Annihilationism
  • Full Preterism
  • Open Theism
  • Universalism

Click to expand...

GodsGrace101 said:

A problem I'm having with the word Begotten is that it's referring to the 2nd Person of the Trinity, NOT of Jesus -- with which I could agree.

Click to expand...

I have quoted my earlier post containing the CF.com Statement of Faith, for your convenience.

The Liturgist said:

As I have said before, John 1:1-18, and the Nicene Creed, which is part of the CF.com Statement of Faith which defines who is a Christian for purposes of posting in Christian areas, which I shared with you previously, as it helpfully provided scriptural references for every part of the Creed, does make it clear that Jesus Christ is the second person of the Trinity, God incarnate. So you really need to come to terms with the Creed; for among other reasons, no Christians or semi-Christian cults in history believed in the Trinity but denied that Jesus Christ was not the second person of the Trinity, and I think it is reasonable to assume that if we are not divinely inspired prophets, but have a doctrinal opinion which is completely unprecedented and which is incompatible with the established doctrine of everyone else, we are probably in error.

Click to expand...

I've read all your posts to me and am sorry for the delay in responding.
I acknowledge that you're very familiar with the bible and with creeds - I'm sure you're familiar with all of them.

Two questions:

1. Why do you keep bringing up the SoF of this forum? (CFnet).

2. You stated in one post that it's prohibited to say that Jesus Christ and the 2nd Person of the Trinity are two separate persons. Apparently, you understand the Trinity to the inth degree. So explain this:
When Jesus was on Earth, where was the 2nd Person of the Trinity?

Also, you have no deep knowledge of my beliefs and no authority over me as to how I understand the Trinity....It is my belief that I have stated NOTHING that does not agree with any Creed. I'm sorry you may believe so, but this does not concern me.

The Liturgist said:

No, because in Nicene Christianity, in general, the Trinity is undivided. The Father, Son and Holy Ghost are not each 1/3 of of the Trinity but posess the fullness of the Godhead.

Secondly, the Ephesian and Chalcedonian doctrine of Hypostatic Union states that the uncreated divine nature of our Lord was united with the created human nature He assumed during the Incarnation. This union is without change, confusion, comingling, separation or division. The Second Person of the Trinity has, since the Incarnation, united humanity with God.

Furthermore, this is essential to our salvation, because if Jesus were not united with the Second Person, if Jesus was just a man, His crucifixion would not be effectual for our sins, as it would be mere human sacrifice.

In fact, I believe that the Nicene Creed/CF Statement of Faith does prohibit saying the Second Person and Jesus Christ were separate. I am going to paste in the Statement of Faith, because it provides handy Scriptural citations for every clause, so you can see the Early Church did not just make it up.

Take note of the red sections of the Creed and the following Notes added by CF.com; these are Christological, dealing with the nature of Christ, and the Christological the Creed clearly defines Jesus Christ as the second person of the Trinity referred to in John 1:1-18. The blue section is Theo-Patrological, pertaining to God the Father, and the green section is Pneumatological, defining the Holy Spirit. The remaining eschatological, sacramental and ecclesiological sections of the Nicene Creed I color coded in purple, so as to set them apart from the other parts of the Statement of Faith. I placed whitespace between each section.


CF Statement of Faith
The Nicene Creed

We believe in (Romans 10:8-10; 1John 4:15)
ONE God, (Deuteronomy 6:4, Ephesians 4:6)
the Father (Matthew 6:9)
Almighty, (Exodus 6:3)
Maker of Heaven and Earth, (Genesis 1:1)
and of all things visible and invisible. (Colossians 1:15-16)

And in ONE Lord Jesus Christ, (Acts 11:17)
the Son of God, (Mathew 14:33; 16:16)
the Only-Begotten, (John 1:18; 3:16)
Begotten of the Father before all ages. (John 1:2)
Light of Light; (Psalm 27:1; John 8:12; Matthew 17:2,5)
True God of True God; (John 17:1-5)
Begotten, not made; (John 1:18)
of one essence with the Father (John 10:30)
by whom all things were made; (Hebrews 1:1-2)
Who for us men and for our salvation (1Timothy 2:4-5)
came down from Heaven, (John 6:33,35)
and was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary, (Luke 1:35)
and became man. (John 1:14)
And was crucified for us (Mark 15:25; 1Cointhians 15:3)
under Pontius Pilate, (John 19:6)
and suffered, (Mark 8:31)
and was buried. (Luke 23:53; 1Corinthians 15:4)
And the third day He rose again, according to the Scriptures. (Luke 24:1 1Corinthians 15:4)
And ascended into Heaven, (Luke 24:51; Acts 1:10)
and sits at the right hand of the Father. (Mark 16:19; Acts 7:55)
And He shall come again with glory (Matthew 24:27)
to judge the living and the dead; (Acts 10:42; 2Timothy 4:1)
whose Kingdom shall have no end. (2 Peter 1:11)

And in the Holy Spirit, (John 14:26)
the Lord, (Acts 5:3-4)
the Giver of Life, (Genesis 1:2)
Who proceeds from the Father; (John 15:26)
Who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified; (Matthew 3:16-17)
Who spoke through the prophets. (1 Samuel 19:20 ; Ezekiel 11:5,13) In one, (Matthew 16: 18)

And in one holy, (1 Peter 2:5,9)
catholic*, (Mark 16:15)
and apostolic Church. (Acts 2:42; Ephesians 2:19-22)

I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins**. (Ephesians 4:5; Acts 2:38)

I look for the resurrection of the dead, (John 11:24; 1Corinthians 15:12-49; Hebrews 6:2; Revelation 20:5)
and the life of the world to come. (Mark 10:29-30)

AMEN. (Psalm 106:48)

* The word "catholic" (literally, "complete," "universal," or "according to the whole") refers to the universal church of the Lord Jesus Christ and not necessarily or exclusively to any particular visible denomination, institution, or doctrine.

** May be interpreted as baptism is a matter of obedience and not a requirement for salvation or as a regenerating ordinance.

Faith groups and individuals that deny the full, eternal deity of Jesus Christ or His incarnation whereby He, as God, took on human flesh (becoming fully God and fully man in one person), are considered non-Christians at CF. Posts that deny the full, eternal deity of Jesus Christ or His incarnation are considered non-Christian theology and are not allowed in "Christians Only" forums. Discussions in all "Christians Only" forums must be in alignment with Trinitarian beliefs.

Challenging Paul's position as an Apostle of Jesus Christ who (although not one of the original twelve) was sent forth by Christ after his conversion [Acts 9:15-16], or arguing against the inclusion of Paul's writings in the New Testament canon, is not allowed in any "Christians Only" forums (including the Controversial Christian Theology forum). You may disagree on the interpretation and application of his writings, but not their place as canon or Paul as an inspired author of Scripture.

Unorthodox Christian theology may only be discussed in the Controversial Christian Theology forum. These unorthodox topics do not directly oppose the Nicene Creed, but are not considered to be orthodox on CF. These unorthodox topics may not contradict the Nicene Creed. Non-Trinitarianism may only be discussed in the Outreach category forums. Gnosticism may not be discussed in any CF forums. The Controversial Christian Theology forum is open to Christian members only (faith groups list). Unorthodox Christian theological topics include (but are not limited to):

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  • Annihilationism
  • Full Preterism
  • Open Theism
  • Universalism

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You really should read my posts more carefully.

The Liturgist said:

You are creating a hard division between the human and divine natures of our Lord which is more extreme than the doctrine of Nestorius, rejected at Chalcedon and Ephesus.

Now, Nestorianism is certainly allowed under the CF.com Statement of Faith, because Nestorius and his followers were Nicene Christians, and we have members who follow Nestorian doctrines, however, if you desire to follow the doctrines of Chalcedon and Ephesus, which most Protestant churches follow, and in the case of Chalcedon, even Nestorius acceded to it, you have to understand that the Second Person is Jesus Christ; he was begotten of the Father before all ages, and then became incarnate by putting on our human nature, through his miraculous conception in the womb of the Virgin Mary, who did give birth to the incarnate Word of God.

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So what does BEGOTTEN mean??

I'm sure you're aware that some theologians reject that it means BORN because it would imply that the 2nd Person, the Son, did not always exist. These theologians agree that it means UNIQUE...and I posted from Strong's to show this meaning in the Greek word.