The Greatness of the Great Commision

bling

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What’s the difference between baptizing large groups of people, and baptizing nations (which by definition is a large group of people)?
Baptizing large groups of individual people has each individual person deciding to be baptized, while baptizing a "nation" has the nation deciding to be baptized, which really is not possible since people decide. The issue goes back to making a disciple of a nation and not the individual people within the nation deciding to be or not be a disciple.
 
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Hammster

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Baptizing large groups of individual people has each individual person deciding to be baptized, while baptizing a "nation" has the nation deciding to be baptized, which really is not possible since people decide. The issue goes back to making a disciple of a nation and not the individual people within the nation deciding to be or not be a disciple.
You seem to be missing the point that nations are large groups of people. I don’t know how this is such an issue. Let’s say that over the next 300 years that everyone in America gets saved and baptized. Would you consider that the nation was baptized?
 
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Hammster

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Tribes turn into nations just as Judah did. Nations don't just mean land with borders, they also mean peoples.
So your assertion is that only Israel is in focus here.
 
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timothyu

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At first yes. Matthew15:24 Jesus Himself went to a Samaritan woman. Ten of the twelve tribes/nations of the House of Israel were considered gentiles by the more smug Jews. Even today they only allow their own into Israel even though there are ten other tribes prophesized to return. You may remember the tribes split in a dispute over which tribe the messiah would come from.

The Hebrew people were to be the first to be approached, but when the Jews rejected and refused to trade their own governance for the governance of God, the offer was extended to the Gentiles. A logical move as Jesus had already said the temple would be torn down and the people scattered so the teachings had a better chance of surviving among the gentiles who would obviously make a worldly religion out of it built upon the previous foundations of Roman institutions and the like, which they did. One even took over the role of Caesar in building it's own empire. God knows how to use these for His benefit. Otherwise we would not have those scriptures today (regardless of the fight over whose is the original).
 
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Hammster

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At first yes. Matthew15:24 Jesus Himself went to a Samaritan woman. Ten of the twelve tribes/nations of the House of Israel were considered gentiles by the more smug Jews. Even today they only allow their own into Israel even though there are ten other tribes prophesized to return. You may remember the tribes split in a dispute over which tribe the messiah would come from.

The Hebrew people were to be the first to be approached, but when the Jews rejected and refused to trade their own governance for the governance of God, the offer was extended to the Gentiles. A logical move as Jesus had already said the temple would be torn down and the people scattered so the teachings had a better chance of surviving among the gentiles who would obviously make a worldly religion out of it built upon the previous foundations of Roman institutions and the like, which they did. One even took over the role of Caesar in building it's own empire. God knows how to use these for His benefit. Otherwise we would not have them today.
It’s like y’all just make up stories to avoid the obvious.
 
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John Mullally

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The gospel is a proclamation. And a command.
The Great Commission is a command addressed to His disciples, not to unbelievers.

The preaching of the Gospel as demonstrated in Acts 2:36-41 is not a command, it has elements of being an invitation - with pleading and conditional promises.

Acts 2:36 “Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.” 37 Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Men and brethren, what shall we do?” 38 Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call.” 40 And with many other words he testified and exhorted them, saying, “Be saved from this perverse generation.” 41 Then those who gladly received his word were baptized; and that day about three thousand souls were added to them
 
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Hammster

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The Great Commission is a command addressed to His disciples, not to unbelievers.

The preaching of the Gospel as demonstrated in Acts 2:36-41 is not a command, it has elements of being an invitation - with pleading and conditional promises.

Acts 2:36 “Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.” 37 Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Men and brethren, what shall we do?” 38 Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call.” 40 And with many other words he testified and exhorted them, saying, “Be saved from this perverse generation.” 41 Then those who gladly received his word were baptized; and that day about three thousand souls were added to them
“Repent” is a command.
 
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bling

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You seem to be missing the point that nations are large groups of people. I don’t know how this is such an issue. Let’s say that over the next 300 years that everyone in America gets saved and baptized. Would you consider that the nation was baptized?
I would still say the people in this nation were baptized and not the “nation” was baptized, God baptized the world in the flood, but nations cannot be baptized or made a disciple since in is individuals. Just because a person lives in a nation is not the criteria for baptism or being a disciple, since it is a personal individual choice.

The nation of Israel was God’s people in one sense, but individuals within that group (nation) were children of satan.

I would say like others in these words Christ is referring to Christians going to all nations (Gentiles) and making individual disciples in that nation and baptizing individuals.
 
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bling

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Your thesis that a severe persecution of Christians would somehow be an enormous boon for the church is unsupported and unsupportable. And if you ask most of those Chinese Christians whether, given the choice, they would rather move with their families to the free world, the answer would be overwhelmingly positive, based on my experience with expats from countries where Christians are persecuted.

Also, there are legal Protestant and Catholic churches in the PRC which are well attended. The only church that is being completely persecuted in the PRC is the Orthodox church, due to Russophobia on the part of the government dating back to the Sino-Soviet split in the aftermath of Stalin’s death.
I know at lease some registered Protestant churches have cameras installed and no attendance. The communists are also rewriting the Bible to add communism and take out what they do not want, but I do not know if it has gone out yet.

Do you know what these registered churches cannot teach?

As far as persecution:

Matthew 24:9 “Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me.

How do we get around these promises of persecution?

Acts 8:1 On that day a great persecution broke out against the church in Jerusalem, and all except the apostles were scattered throughout Judea and Samaria.

This persecution helped the Christians in Jerusalem to move out and spread the word to other cities.

2 Corinthians 12:10 That is why, for Christ’s sake, I delight in weaknesses, in insults, in hardships, in persecutions, in difficulties. For when I am weak, then I am strong.

Paul delighted in persecution, so are we missing out on this delight?

2 Timothy 3:12 In fact, everyone who wants to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will be persecuted,

Why are we not being persecuted like they were and like the Christians in Communist China are being persecuted?
 
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The Liturgist

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I know at lease some registered Protestant churches have cameras installed and no attendance. The communists are also rewriting the Bible to add communism and take out what they do not want, but I do not know if it has gone out yet.

Do you know what these registered churches cannot teach?

As far as persecution:

Matthew 24:9 “Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me.

How do we get around these promises of persecution?

Acts 8:1 On that day a great persecution broke out against the church in Jerusalem, and all except the apostles were scattered throughout Judea and Samaria.

This persecution helped the Christians in Jerusalem to move out and spread the word to other cities.

2 Corinthians 12:10 That is why, for Christ’s sake, I delight in weaknesses, in insults, in hardships, in persecutions, in difficulties. For when I am weak, then I am strong.

Paul delighted in persecution, so are we missing out on this delight?

2 Timothy 3:12 In fact, everyone who wants to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will be persecuted,

Why are we not being persecuted like they were and like the Christians in Communist China are being persecuted?

We are, in the Middle East, India, Pakistan and Bangladesh, but the churches have refused to go into hiding or to do anything differently.
 
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Hammster

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I would still say the people in this nation were baptized and not the “nation” was baptized, God baptized the world in the flood, but nations cannot be baptized or made a disciple since in is individuals. Just because a person lives in a nation is not the criteria for baptism or being a disciple, since it is a personal individual choice.

The nation of Israel was God’s people in one sense, but individuals within that group (nation) were children of satan.

I would say like others in these words Christ is referring to Christians going to all nations (Gentiles) and making individual disciples in that nation and baptizing individuals.
So it seems that nations can be discipled but not baptized. Jesus really messed that one up.
 
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bling

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We are, in the Middle East, India, Pakistan and Bangladesh, but the churches have refused to go into hiding or to do anything differently.
One of my dead friends was turned in by his extended family in Iran, was jailed, but was able to pay a bribe and excape with fmily to Turckey.
Did the first and second century churches some times go into hiding?
 
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bling

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So it seems that nations can be discipled but not baptized. Jesus really messed that one up.
No, Jesus is not saying a nation can be made a disciple nor can a nation be baptized, but disciples are to be made in every nation and these disciples are to be baptized.
 
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