Imputation?

Thatgirloncfforums · Oct 19, 2021

Ok. Well, thank you guys. I have my answer. See ya later.

Mark Quayle · Oct 19, 2021

chevyontheriver said:
We do have to 'co'-operate with God's grace it's true. But it is not a 50-50 sort of thing. God gives us the grace to even be able to begin to cooperate. It's all grace, with us basically saying as Mary said, 'Let it be done to me'. We are cleansed and made holy, but we didn't do a bit of the heavy lifting ourselves. We are no longer a dungheap and definitely not a dungheap covered in snow to look all pretty. We become cleansed and holy. If we soil ourselves we have access to sacramental confession and absolution, by the same power of Christ that first cleansed us.

The descriptions of synergism (as opposed to monergism) seem to vary according to the view of the describer, ranging from "co-operation" to "greater effect than the efforts of either one by themselves.", as though we add what God cannot accomplish on his own.

RileyG · Oct 19, 2021

Thatgirloncfforums said:
Ok. Well, thank you guys. I have my answer. See ya later.

God Bless you abundantly.

Thatgirloncfforums · Oct 19, 2021

RileyG said:
God Bless you abundantly.

You too, my dear!

chevyontheriver · Oct 20, 2021

Mark Quayle said:
The descriptions of synergism (as opposed to monergism) seem to vary according to the view of the describer, ranging from "co-operation" to "greater effect than the efforts of either one by themselves.", as though we add what God cannot accomplish on his own.

God does not accomplish the work without our consent. We can do nothing without God. So it's not about who does more. God does it all if we but consent to it and allow it.

Mark Quayle · Oct 20, 2021

chevyontheriver said:
God does not accomplish the work without our consent. We can do nothing without God. So it's not about who does more. God does it all if we but consent to it and allow it.

Not that you haven't heard this before, but: We (as lost, the flesh, enemies of God) never give consent to what God does in us, until he changes us to want what he wants. Regeneration is the work of God alone. The Gospel is the work of God from first to last.

Thatgirloncfforums · Oct 20, 2021

Catholics believe in prevenient grace. So God frees the will, the will then responds and is justified. There may be room to move in Catholic Soteriology toward a more Reform position. Idk, it's been yrs since I read Aquinas.

Mark Quayle said:
Not that you haven't heard this before, but: We (as lost, the flesh, enemies of God) never give consent to what God does in us, until he changes us to want what he wants. Regeneration is the work of God alone. The Gospel is the work of God from first to last.

Thatgirloncfforums · Oct 20, 2021

@Mark Quayle ,

You may find this helpful:
https://theophilogue.com/2010/05/24...rating-and-prevenient-grace-summa-theologica/

Thatgirloncfforums said:
Catholics believe in prevenient grace. So God frees the will, the will then responds and is justified. There may be room to move in Catholic Soteriology toward a more Reform position. Idk, it's been yrs since I read Aquinas.

boughtwithaprice · Oct 20, 2021

We believe in prevenient grace but remember the parable of the talents . It’s not what you get that merits, but what you do with what you get
As our Lord Jesus Christ has said, not
Everyone that says to me Lord Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven but those that DO the will of my Father

Mark Quayle · Oct 20, 2021

Thatgirloncfforums said:
@Mark Quayle ,

You may find this helpful:
https://theophilogue.com/2010/05/24...rating-and-prevenient-grace-summa-theologica/

Thank you.

chevyontheriver · Oct 20, 2021

Mark Quayle said:
Not that you haven't heard this before, but: We (as lost, the flesh, enemies of God) never give consent to what God does in us, until he changes us to want what he wants. Regeneration is the work of God alone. The Gospel is the work of God from first to last.

Oh, I've heard it before. In fact it's good Catholic doctrine that without God first moving us we couldn't even will to cooperate in our salvation by our consent. We are free to do so only after grace first moves us. Without grace we are enslaved in sin with no ability to do anything about it.

Thatgirloncfforums · Oct 20, 2021

Does initial justification occur prior to our assent or after?

chevyontheriver said:
Oh, I've heard it before. In fact it's good Catholic doctrine that without God first moving us we couldn't even will to cooperate in our salvation by our consent. We are free to do so only after grace first moves us. Without grace we are enslaved in sin with no ability to do anything about it.

chevyontheriver · Oct 20, 2021

Thatgirloncfforums said:
Does initial justification occur prior to our assent or after?

Jimmy Akin refers to initial justification here: Justification in Catholic Teaching | EWTN

He says it occurs at the moment of conversion. Which I think is to say at the moment of consent. It is the moment we receive righteousness through Christ. Which may make some sense following Augustine, who said God would not save us without our willing it.

This moment of consent was prepared for by grace, not an irresistible grace but a preparatory grace without which not even consent would be possible.

Akin also refers to chapters 3 through 9 of the sixth session of the council of Trent as relevant to initial justification.

I include a link to an older systematic theologian Joseph Pohle, I have trusted. The meaning seems equivalent to Jimmy Akin's without use of the term 'initial': Justification

Thatgirloncfforums · Oct 20, 2021

Thank you. The language of the catechism, while beautiful is a bit confusing to me on this point. So I appreciate the clarification.

chevyontheriver said:
Jimmy Akin refers to initial justification here: Justification in Catholic Teaching | EWTN

He says it occurs at the moment of conversion. Which I think is to say at the moment of consent. It is the moment we receive righteousness through Christ. Which may make some sense following Augustine, who said God would not save us without our willing it.

This moment of consent was prepared for by grace, not an irresistible grace but a preparatory grace without which not even consent would be possible.

Akin also refers to chapters 3 through 9 of the sixth session of the council of Trent as relevant to initial justification.

I include a link to an older systematic theologian Joseph Pohle, I have trusted. The meaning seems equivalent to Jimmy Akin's without use of the term 'initial': Justification

Mclachlan · Oct 20, 2021

The bible teaches that Justification is a one time process. Justification through faith alone, in Christ alone. The sinner believes, and Christ's righteousness is imputed to them forever, incorruptible, unchanging.

Whereas Roman Catholic doctrine teaches that Justification is the beginning of a pursuit of holiness, and that this grace of justification can be lost through 'mortal sin.'

So it appears that in Roman Catholicism justification depends on a person's sanctification; whereas in Biblical Christianity, it depends on Christ's finished work on the cross.

Titus 3:4-7
4 But when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior appeared,

5 he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit,

6 whom he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior,

7 so that being justified by his grace we might become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Hope this helps.
I'm not a Roman Catholic. If this is not allowed here, please inform me and I'll take it off.

John 19:30

Thatgirloncfforums · Oct 20, 2021

Mclachlan said:
The bible teaches that Justification is a one time process. Justification through faith alone, in Christ alone. The sinner believes, and Christ's righteousness is imputed to them forever, incorruptible, unchanging.

Whereas Roman Catholic doctrine teaches that Justification is the beginning of a pursuit of holiness, and that this grace of justification can be lost through 'mortal sin.'

So it appears that in Roman Catholicism justification depends on a person's sanctification; whereas in Biblical Christianity, it depends on Christ's finished work on the cross.

Titus 3:4-7
4 But when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior appeared,

5 he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit,

6 whom he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior,

7 so that being justified by his grace we might become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Hope this helps.
I'm not a Roman Catholic. If this is not allowed here, please inform me and I'll take it off.

John 19:30

If you do take it down, post it somewhere else. I'd like to discuss this from a RC pov. Tag me. Thanks

Thatgirloncfforums · Oct 20, 2021

but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit

Regeneration....renewal.

Mclachlan said:
The bible teaches that Justification is a one time process. Justification through faith alone, in Christ alone. The sinner believes, and Christ's righteousness is imputed to them forever, incorruptible, unchanging.

Whereas Roman Catholic doctrine teaches that Justification is the beginning of a pursuit of holiness, and that this grace of justification can be lost through 'mortal sin.'

So it appears that in Roman Catholicism justification depends on a person's sanctification; whereas in Biblical Christianity, it depends on Christ's finished work on the cross.

Titus 3:4-7
4 But when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior appeared,

5 he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit,

6 whom he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior,

7 so that being justified by his grace we might become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Hope this helps.
I'm not a Roman Catholic. If this is not allowed here, please inform me and I'll take it off.

John 19:30

RileyG · Oct 20, 2021

Mclachlan- This is a Catholic forum, you are more than welcome to post here but cannot debate. God bless

Mclachlan · Oct 21, 2021

RileyG said:
Mclachlan- This is a Catholic forum, you are more than welcome to post here but cannot debate. God bless

Bless you too

boughtwithaprice · Oct 21, 2021

Mclachlan said:
The bible teaches that Justification is a one time process. Justification through faith alone, in Christ alone. The sinner believes, and Christ's righteousness is imputed to them forever, incorruptible, unchanging.

Whereas Roman Catholic doctrine teaches that Justification is the beginning of a pursuit of holiness, and that this grace of justification can be lost through 'mortal sin.'

So it appears that in Roman Catholicism justification depends on a person's sanctification; whereas in Biblical Christianity, it depends on Christ's finished work on the cross.

Titus 3:4-7
4 But when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior appeared,

5 he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit,

6 whom he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior,

7 so that being justified by his grace we might become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Hope this helps.
I'm not a Roman Catholic. If this is not allowed here, please inform me and I'll take it off.

John 19:30

Yes that is the position of Protestants. We do not need to debate, but a discussion of the positions and their logical conclusions.

while true that we did not merit our justification, (while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us), the question remains what do we
do once we are justified and can you discard Christ once we believe?

Are you taking the position of once saved always saved? Is that what you wish to propose here? If so we can talk about that

Imputation?

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