From the "this is why some people gravitate to the far-right" files...

ThatRobGuy · Oct 20, 2021

Work Sucks, Especially When People Get Your Pronouns Wrong

When these types of attitudes and senses of entitlement are presented as "mainstream progressivism", it's not surprising why some people are driven into the welcoming arms of right-wing populists.

When someone refers to someone who wants to be referred to as they/them as she/her (but they clearly look like a woman) and that's viewed as "straight, cis men, carrying implicit power", or telling sob stories about how "At an office holiday party, people kept referring to me with “she/her” pronouns, and by the end of the game I was nearly in tears at what was supposed to be a relaxing, fun work outing. I told them I wanted to sit out because I was being misgendered"

Or the premise that if a person is gender-fluid, it's the responsibility of everyone else who works with them to check their co-worker's social media pages every morning to see what the "pronoun of the day" is so that they don't feel "invalidated" (otherwise you're just a backwards bigot)

It's no wonder how so many people (who would otherwise be pretty moderate) are driven into the far-right.

Nithavela · Oct 20, 2021

If it takes only reading such a bit of non-news to push someone into the far right, they were well on their way already.

Pavel Mosko · Oct 20, 2021

I don't get all the sturm and drang on Proud boys etc. Whatever problem exists (and I'm actually not convinced there is a problem, lots of hatchet jobs going on at various times), is so much worse with left wing groups like Antifa.

ThatRobGuy · Oct 20, 2021

Nithavela said:
If it takes only reading such a bit of non-news to push someone into the far right, they were well on their way already.

That might be true for some people...

But the attitudes being expressed in the Vice article aren't "non-news". Depending on where a person works or what city they live in, that could be something they're encountering semi-regularly. My cousin who thought "Ohio is too right wing, I need to go somewhere more progressive that reflects my views" ended up moving back to Ohio after 18 months in San Fran (despite making good money out there). He's still not "right wing" by any stretch of the imagination, but working for a "woke company" in San Francisco was certainly an eye opener for him.

I wasn't referring to the article itself in terms of why people may be driven in that direction, but rather the attitudes expressed within it.

I don't personally consider Vice to be all that legitimate of a news source...they make some cool documentaries, but beyond that, their actual articles seem to just be a far-left echo chamber.

Albion · Oct 20, 2021

ThatRobGuy said:
It's no wonder how so many people (who would otherwise be pretty moderate) are driven into the far-right.

Here's a bit of additional information. Not everyone who sees through the insanity of the far Left is, ergo, on the far Right. That is not at all the case. Moderates and ordinary Conservatives are the mainstays of common sense, and this issue is mainly about common sense.

ThatRobGuy · Oct 20, 2021

Albion said:
Here's a bit of additional information. Not everyone who sees through the insanity of the far Left is, ergo, on the far Right. That is not at all the case. Moderates and ordinary Conservatives are the mainstays of common sense, and this issue is mainly about common sense.

Not everyone, but someone who is driven to the far-right likely encountered something that made them want to drift over there.

I'm pretty much a "touch left of center moderate" and I see through the insanity and have no desire to support right-wing populist candidates.

However, not everyone responds calmly to being called a bigot, or getting written up at work for "misgendering", or having someone digging around in social media posts from 8 years ago trying to get them fired. (Just speaking in generalities there, I live/work in Ohio, so it's a pretty moderate bunch of people who live here so thankfully I've never encountered that)

When that happens to some people, their instinct is to join up with whatever group is going to fight the hardest against the people who are taking those approaches.

Albion · Oct 20, 2021

ThatRobGuy said:
Not everyone, but someone who is driven to the far-right likely encountered something that made them want to drift over there.

There must be some such people, yes. I agree. So let's talk about them instead of calling anyone who objects to the ridiculous extremism coming at us these days a new convert to the "far-right."

dzheremi · Oct 20, 2021

Yeah, that sounds exhausting for all involved, but I'm not going to go join Richard Spencer's Spencerettes over it or anything. Probably just avoid the person who thinks the world revolves around them and how they feel about their genitals on any given day, since that is none of my business and nothing I want to know about anyway.

rambot · Oct 20, 2021

Pavel Mosko said:
I don't get all the sturm and drang on Proud boys etc. Whatever problem exists (and I'm actually not convinced there is a problem, lots of hatchet jobs going on at various times), is so much worse with left wing groups like Antifa.

Strange that every single security organization in the US with nationalized data access disagrees with your take.

rambot · Oct 20, 2021

Honestly, I'm progressive and I will do what I can to try to make sure I'm using the right pronouns all the time.

However, and if I come across those situations I'll be pretty direct, my social interactions with another human should not require work on MY part for you to feel validated. Sometimes we just communicate because we need to get ideas across. Life is not a series of validations and hugs. Yes they are great and yes, maybe you even want them, but it's not reasonable to expect them nonstop.

It's interesting to me that the hyperindividualism of US society dovetails so nicely with this attitude; I'd wager there is a connection there somewhere.

Pavel Mosko · Oct 20, 2021

ThatRobGuy said:
It's no wonder how so many people (who would otherwise be pretty moderate) are driven into the far-right.

I think your confusing the general phenomenon of "being red pilled" (like Brandon Straka's Walk Away movement) with "far right". But here is a diagnostic question, is Ben Shapiro part of the far right? I'm sure lots of progressives would say yes, people who I would consider far left, but I don't think he would be by anyone who is just mildly conservative. Even you pointed out in a previous thread, how he disagrees with various Republican or Conservative positions "if his lawyer instincts kick in and he thinks the issue will put him on the loosing side".

dzheremi · Oct 20, 2021

rambot said:
However, and if I come across those situations I'll be pretty direct, my social interactions with another human should not require work on MY part for you to feel validated. Sometimes we just communicate because we need to get ideas across. Life is not a series of validations and hugs. Yes they are great and yes, maybe you even want them, but it's not reasonable to expect them nonstop.

Exactly what I was thinking. I don't want to be rude to anyone (so I wouldn't go out of my way to purposely upset people), but the examples in the story...I'm sorry, but if I come into your ice cream shop or your pet store, then I'm there because I want ice cream or to get my cat a cat tree or something, not to validate your existence or to be snapped at about your pronouns when I don't know you and we will likely never see each other again after this interaction.

Like the pet store person who says "My usual go-to for correcting people is just to raise a hand and say 'they' or 'pronouns.'" If I was actually there and the employee said that to me, I'd probably just be very confused, but any complaints about my supposed screw up (a.k.a. not being able to read the mind of any random person who is there to help facilitate commerce, not fix the world one 'they' at a time) can go straight into the circular file unless the business wants a whole lot of complaints from people who didn't do anything to anyone in the first place, but were nevertheless treated poorly by their employees for not following some weird pronoun rules that their business doesn't actually have. It's a dang pet store!

renniks · Oct 20, 2021

ThatRobGuy said:
Work Sucks, Especially When People Get Your Pronouns Wrong

When these types of attitudes and senses of entitlement are presented as "mainstream progressivism", it's not surprising why some people are driven into the welcoming arms of right-wing populists.

When someone refers to someone who wants to be referred to as they/them as she/her (but they clearly look like a woman) and that's viewed as "straight, cis men, carrying implicit power", or telling sob stories about how "At an office holiday party, people kept referring to me with “she/her” pronouns, and by the end of the game I was nearly in tears at what was supposed to be a relaxing, fun work outing. I told them I wanted to sit out because I was being misgendered"

Or the premise that if a person is gender-fluid, it's the responsibility of everyone else who works with them to check their co-worker's social media pages every morning to see what the "pronoun of the day" is so that they don't feel "invalidated" (otherwise you're just a backwards bigot)

It's no wonder how so many people (who would otherwise be pretty moderate) are driven into the far-right.

Well the left is just going insane lately so anything to escape that.

Sketcher · Oct 20, 2021

ThatRobGuy said:
Not everyone, but someone who is driven to the far-right likely encountered something that made them want to drift over there.

I'm pretty much a "touch left of center moderate" and I see through the insanity and have no desire to support right-wing populist candidates.

However, not everyone responds calmly to being called a bigot, or getting written up at work for "misgendering", or having someone digging around in social media posts from 8 years ago trying to get them fired. (Just speaking in generalities there, I live/work in Ohio, so it's a pretty moderate bunch of people who live here so thankfully I've never encountered that)

When that happens to some people, their instinct is to join up with whatever group is going to fight the hardest against the people who are taking those approaches.

Not sure that "far right" is the best way to describe it though.

If someone has left-wing beliefs and runs into the crazy left and goes the other way, that person has changed his or her mind about one to a few things. The rest of those old beliefs come along for the ride. So I wouldn't say it's the far right that the person ends up at, but instead you get a weird kind of moderate, who is angrier than before.

SkyWriting · Oct 20, 2021

ThatRobGuy said:
It's no wonder how so many people (who would otherwise be pretty moderate) are driven into the far-right.

It is mostly a matter of family and friends. Less office parties.

Estrid · Oct 20, 2021

Nithavela said:
If it takes only reading such a bit of non-news to push someone into the far right, they were well on their way already.

Many of the same are also duped by those creationist lie - factories like
AIG and DI.

Estrid · Oct 20, 2021

dzheremi said:
Exactly what I was thinking. I don't want to be rude to anyone (so I wouldn't go out of my way to purposely upset people), but the examples in the story...I'm sorry, but if I come into your ice cream shop or your pet store, then I'm there because I want ice cream or to get my cat a cat tree or something, not to validate your existence or to be snapped at about your pronouns when I don't know you and we will likely never see each other again after this interaction.

Like the pet store person who says "My usual go-to for correcting people is just to raise a hand and say 'they' or 'pronouns.'" If I was actually there and the employee said that to me, I'd probably just be very confused, but any complaints about my supposed screw up (a.k.a. not being able to read the mind of any random person who is there to help facilitate commerce, not fix the world one 'they' at a time) can go straight into the circular file unless the business wants a whole lot of complaints from people who didn't do anything to anyone in the first place, but were nevertheless treated poorly by their employees for not following some weird pronoun rules that their business doesn't actually have. It's a dang pet store!

Maybe just walk out.

dzheremi · Oct 20, 2021

Estrid said:
Maybe just walk out.

Oh, you're no fun! (But yeah. That's more realistic.)

Estrid · Oct 20, 2021

dzheremi said:
Oh, you're no fun! (But yeah. That's more realistic.)

Its too easy to think up something unworthy.
I quick went back and deleted the suggested pronoun.

Palmfever · Oct 20, 2021

rambot said:
Strange that every single security organization in the US with nationalized data access disagrees with your take.

It's hard to argue with the government, they always tell the truth. Right?

From the "this is why some people gravitate to the far-right" files...

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