The Greatness of the Great Commision

bling

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I interpret it that way because it’s what Jesus said.
Jesus did not speak in modern English, so Greek word have to be translated as best they can and many times there is no equally meaning word in the English for the Greek word used. The context is a huge help here because if Christ is referring to actual "large bodies of people" (nations themselves) being made disciples then Christ is also saying you can baptize nations themselves, which cannot be done, but individuals in those nations can be baptized.
 
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Mr. M

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The great commission is how we get to the kingdom filling the whole earth.
The Great Commission extends the invitation to all. When the bridegroom arrives and the door
is closed, the kingdom Law will be enforced.

Revelation 2:
26
And he who overcomes, and keeps My works until the end, to him I will give power over the nations
27 ‘He shall rule them with a rod of iron; They shall be dashed to pieces like the potter’s vessels’—
as I also have received from My Father.

2 Timothy 2:
11
This is a faithful saying:
For if we died with Him,
We shall also live with Him.
12 If we endure,
We shall also reign with Him.
If we deny Him,
He also will deny us.
13 If we are faithless,
He remains faithful;
He cannot deny Himself.

Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection.
Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God
and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.
 
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bling

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Indeed, that sort of cellular Christianity is not reflective of the early church, nor does it reflect accurately the Catacomb Church in the USSR or the secret churches in China, where in mainland china the Chinese Orthodox Church, an autonomous part of the Russian Orthodox Church, was suppressed (there is a beautiful cathedral in Harbin that is just being used as a museum).

Another problem with the model @bling proposes is that such small discipleship groups have a bad record when it comes to pastoral abuse. This has been the case both with individual groups, and also, discipleship groups created under the aegis of some megachurches. I much prefer the model of the Eastern and Oriental Orthodox churches where one has freedom to seek out and follow a gerons or geronda (spiritual elder or elderess) on ones own, if one feels so inclined, with broad discretion on the part of the laity about how and if they desire that. I like those churches which afford the faithful a great amount of freedom, which also includes Anglicanism, Lutheranism and Methodism (the Reformed tradition, and Congregationalism within it, of which I am a part, historically seems to have been hit-or-miss in this respect, with some Reformed and Congregational churches excelling and others being more repressive. For example, in far too many of UCC parishes, with a solid exception in the form of the small grouping of traditionalist Faithful and Welcoming parishes, which I believe number 75, at most, someone who was pro-life or adhered to a Scriptural view of marriage, might receive a cool reception.
You said: “that sort of cellular Christianity is not reflective of the early church”. That is exactly what we find in the first and second century, since there were no buildings and mostly house churches. Paul did not establish large congregations and talks about Christians meeting in homes of people. Are you talking about after Constantine?

I have two wonderful Chinese daughters-in-laws, many Christian friends in Communist China (some I support), I disciple, along with other at my church, 16 Chinese students here in the USA and several through emails to China. I have not been a missionary in China, but friends and relatives have secretly.

What pastoral abuse are you talking about?

For the most part there are only unpaid home church leaders and some elders might watch over several house churches. Three years ago, there were some growing large unregistered churches, but in the last three years under Xi Jinping, these large and even small unregistered Church buildings have been plowed under. One of the former preachers for a large unregistered church says: “The demolishing of his church building has only helped the church to grow faster through house churches.”

Prior to the bamboo curtain going up there was estimated to be between 4 to 6 million Christians in China and the Communist captured and sent all the male religious leadership to places of no return, so 30 years ago we thought there were very few Christians left and they were all attending very restrictive registered churches. Today the estimate for the unregistered house churches alone is 150 million and growing. China will soon have more Christians than any other nation.

What is not working for them and how are they not following the method Jesus established?
 
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Hammster

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Jesus did not speak in modern English, so Greek word have to be translated as best they can and many times there is no equally meaning word in the English for the Greek word used. The context is a huge help here because if Christ is referring to actual "large bodies of people" (nations themselves) being made disciples then Christ is also saying you can baptize nations themselves, which cannot be done, but individuals in those nations can be baptized.
Why can’t you baptize large groups of people? We have baptisms at our church where more than one person gets baptized.
 
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Hammster

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The Great Commission extends the invitation to all. When the bridegroom arrives and the door

No, it doesn’t. It’s a command to make disciples. And baptize them. And teach. Nothing about an invitation.
 
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Mr. M

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Nothing about an invitation.
This is a reference to the parable of the wedding of the King's Son. Again, you seem to want to limit
the discussion and definition of Great Commission to one passage in Matthew 28. If that is the case,
I guess we have exhausted the topic.
The Gospel is an invitation until the Lord returns, then comes the vow!

Isaiah 45:
22 “Look to Me, and be saved,
All you ends of the earth!
For I am God, and there is no other.
23 I have sworn by Myself;
The word has gone out of My mouth in righteousness,
And shall not return,
That to Me every knee shall bow,
Every tongue shall take an oath.

We do not have the authority to force anyone to their knees under the Gospel.
We seemed to have agreed that the GC continues, when would
you say it ends?
Zechariah 12:
9
It shall be in that day that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
10 “And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace
and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as
one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn.
Matthew 24:30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes
of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with
power and great glory.
 
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Hammster

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This is a reference to the parable of the wedding of the King's Son. Again, you seem to want to limit
the discussion and definition of Great Commission to one passage in Matthew 28. If that is the case,
I guess we have exhausted the topic.
The Gospel is an invitation until the Lord returns, then comes the vow!

Isaiah 45:
22 “Look to Me, and be saved,
All you ends of the earth!
For I am God, and there is no other.
23 I have sworn by Myself;
The word has gone out of My mouth in righteousness,
And shall not return,
That to Me every knee shall bow,
Every tongue shall take an oath.

We do not have the authority to force anyone to their knees under the Gospel.
We seemed to have agreed that the GC continues, when would
you say it ends?
Zechariah 12:
9
It shall be in that day that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
10 “And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace
and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as
one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn.
Matthew 24:30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes
of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with
power and great glory.
The gospel is a proclamation. And a command.
 
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Mr. M

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The gospel is a proclamation. And a command.
The people who reject that "command" don't see it that way.
"Come unto me, all you who are weary and heavy laden, and I will give you rest" sounds like
a wonderful invitation for all but the verse immediately preceding states:

Matthew 11:27 All things have been delivered to Me by My Father, and no one knows the Son
except the Father.
Nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and to whom the Son wills to reveal.

We are but servants, sent out to proclaim good news. If there is a command, it comes
to the hearts of those
whom the Lord chooses.
Since we have no foreknowledge of who that may be, we share the message with all.
A command to make a choice?
"Choose this day whom you will serve"

Joshua 24:
21
And the people said to Joshua, “No, but we will serve the Lord!”
22 So Joshua said to the people, “You are witnesses against yourselves that you have chosen the Lord for yourselves, to serve Him.”
And they said, “We are witnesses!”
 
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Hammster

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"Come unto me, all you who are weary and heavy laden, and I will give you rest" sounds like
a wonderful invitation for all but the verse immediately preceding states:

That’s a command.
 
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Mr. M

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That’s a command.
Of course it is, to a disciple.
20 teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo,
I am with you always, even to the end of the age.

The command of the Great Commission is upon those commissioned
"make disciples among
all nations".
I know you reject this as a textual variant.

Mark 16:16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved;
but he who does not believe will be condemned.

And yet, it is truth that the great commission applies to those who believe and are baptized.
You are using semantics to suggest that we are to disciple nations. We disciple those who
believe and are saved. The proclamation of the Gospel is unto salvation. The Great Commission
is a continuance in teaching them to "observe all things" that He has commanded.
Naturally, we are to occupy until He comes, even as we know

"I am with you always, even to the end of the age."
 
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The Liturgist

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You said: “that sort of cellular Christianity is not reflective of the early church”. That is exactly what we find in the first and second century, since there were no buildings and mostly house churches. Paul did not establish large congregations and talks about Christians meeting in homes of people. Are you talking about after Constantine?

No, I am talking before Constantine. There were church buildings, such as te world’s oldest church, in Kerala, India, and the church in Dura Europos, Syria, but the custom of Christians in Rome and certain large cities was to meet in catacombs or cemeteries and celebrate the Eucharist on the graves of martyrs. These meetings, after sunset, at midnight, and before sunrise, give us the ancient offices of Vespers, Matins and the traditional celebration of the Eucharist, which you will find at some monasteries.
 
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Hammster

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Of course it is, to a disciple.
20 teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo,
I am with you always, even to the end of the age.

The command of the Great Commission is upon those commissioned
"make disciples among
all nations".
I know you reject this as a textual variant.

Mark 16:16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved;
but he who does not believe will be condemned.

And yet, it is truth that the great commission applies to those who believe and are baptized.
You are using semantics to suggest that we are to disciple nations. We disciple those who
believe and are saved. The proclamation of the Gospel is unto salvation. The Great Commission
is a continuance in teaching them to "observe all things" that He has commanded.
Naturally, we are to occupy until He comes, even as we know

"I am with you always, even to the end of the age."
It’s not semantics. It’s right in the text.
 
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bling

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Why can’t you baptize large groups of people? We have baptisms at our church where more than one person gets baptized.
You are saying the nation was baptized, since you are saying the nation became a disciple and not just some large group of people.
 
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bling

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No, I am talking before Constantine. There were church buildings, such as te world’s oldest church, in Kerala, India, and the church in Dura Europos, Syria, but the custom of Christians in Rome and certain large cities was to meet in catacombs or cemeteries and celebrate the Eucharist on the graves of martyrs. These meetings, after sunset, at midnight, and before sunrise, give us the ancient offices of Vespers, Matins and the traditional celebration of the Eucharist, which you will find at some monasteries.
Paul talked about Christians meeting in homes and not in the catacombs. Yes, some early Christians met in Catacombs, but visiting those places shows us they were not large groups. When churches like the unregestered churches in China grow rapidly buildings just seem to slow them up.
 
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The Liturgist

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Paul talked about Christians meeting in homes and not in the catacombs. Yes, some early Christians met in Catacombs, but visiting those places shows us they were not large groups. When churches like the unregestered churches in China grow rapidly buildings just seem to slow them up.

Some Christians did meet in larger houses, but in many places, including Antioch, we have in Eusebius and elsewhere records of physical church buildings, including an extravagant episcopal palace built by the first Unitarian in history, Paul of Samosata, who in the third century was deposed as bishop of Antioch for heresy and embezzling the church treasury. And there were formal and well known catechtical schools established in Antioch and Alexandria.

It is important to understand that starting in the reign of Trajan, and ending when Commodus succeeded Marcus Aurelius, Christians were generally tolerated, although nominally illegal, with Trajan being on record as telling one of his governors not to hunt down or actively prosecute Christians, as “it is against the spirit of our age.” The severe persecutions under Nero and the early Flavian dynasty would not be seen again until Commodus, and reached their maximum extent during the reigns of Decius and Diocletian. So in the second and the middle portion of the third century, known as “the little peace of the Church” (with the period after the Edict of Milan in 314 called “the great peace of the Church”), buildings were built, and some churches today are built on the site of these, or on the site of cemeteries where martyrs were interred, or at the location of martyrdoms, such as St. Paul Outside the Walls in Rome. And the practice of celebrating the Eucharist on the graves of martyrs, on their tombstones as it were, gave rise to the practice of including relics of the martyrs, and of other saints, in every Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox altar.
 
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Hammster

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You are saying the nation was baptized, since you are saying the nation became a disciple and not just some large group of people.
What’s the difference between baptizing large groups of people, and baptizing nations (which by definition is a large group of people)?
 
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bling

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Some Christians did meet in larger houses, but in many places, including Antioch, we have in Eusebius and elsewhere records of physical church buildings, including an extravagant episcopal palace built by the first Unitarian in history, Paul of Samosata, who in the third century was deposed as bishop of Antioch for heresy and embezzling the church treasury. And there were formal and well known catechtical schools established in Antioch and Alexandria.

It is important to understand that starting in the reign of Trajan, and ending when Commodus succeeded Marcus Aurelius, Christians were generally tolerated, although nominally illegal, with Trajan being on record as telling one of his governors not to hunt down or actively prosecute Christians, as “it is against the spirit of our age.” The severe persecutions under Nero and the early Flavian dynasty would not be seen again until Commodus, and reached their maximum extent during the reigns of Decius and Diocletian. So in the second and the middle portion of the third century, known as “the little peace of the Church” (with the period after the Edict of Milan in 314 called “the great peace of the Church”), buildings were built, and some churches today are built on the site of these, or on the site of cemeteries where martyrs were interred, or at the location of martyrdoms, such as St. Paul Outside the Walls in Rome. And the practice of celebrating the Eucharist on the graves of martyrs, on their tombstones as it were, gave rise to the practice of including relics of the martyrs, and of other saints, in every Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox altar.
Building big churches during times of peace only to be torn down in times of persecution seems to be a big waste. Like I mentioned unregistered churches in China were experiencing relaxed persecution and build some large buildings only to be torn down when Xi Jinping took power and he is continuing to persecute Christians. The latest is to have camaras in every registered church to make sure they are following the rules, which has resulted in the registered churches no longer meeting in their buildings.

Did God really want them to spend the time and money building buildings and meeting in large groups?

The Chinese Christians actually seem to grow faster and stronger under severe persecution meeting in house churches, like the earliest churches started out doing.

We have lots of Church buildings in the west with attendance continuing to decrease. Jesus describes the kingdom growing organically like a muster tree, which means each cell is to be producing another cell like itself.

Does the west need severe persecution of Christians?
 
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Building big churches during times of peace only to be torn down in times of persecution seems to be a big waste. Like I mentioned unregistered churches in China were experiencing relaxed persecution and build some large buildings only to be torn down when Xi Jinping took power and he is continuing to persecute Christians. The latest is to have camaras in every registered church to make sure they are following the rules, which has resulted in the registered churches no longer meeting in their buildings.

Did God really want them to spend the time and money building buildings and meeting in large groups?

The Chinese Christians actually seem to grow faster and stronger under severe persecution meeting in house churches, like the earliest churches started out doing.

We have lots of Church buildings in the west with attendance continuing to decrease. Jesus describes the kingdom growing organically like a muster tree, which means each cell is to be producing another cell like itself.

Does the west need severe persecution of Christians?

Your thesis that a severe persecution of Christians would somehow be an enormous boon for the church is unsupported and unsupportable. And if you ask most of those Chinese Christians whether, given the choice, they would rather move with their families to the free world, the answer would be overwhelmingly positive, based on my experience with expats from countries where Christians are persecuted.

Also, there are legal Protestant and Catholic churches in the PRC which are well attended. The only church that is being completely persecuted in the PRC is the Orthodox church, due to Russophobia on the part of the government dating back to the Sino-Soviet split in the aftermath of Stalin’s death.
 
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