Jesus Left the Day of Worship Open

Dale said:

Hebrews tells us that the Covenant given in the OT is flawed, imperfect, it falls short. There is something “wrong” with it. It was never intended to last forever, God always planned to replace it with the New Covenant, brought to us by the Messiah, Jesus Christ. This is something the Seventh Day Adventists don’t understand.

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1. Hebrews 8 does not use the phrase "the Covenant given in the OT" in fact No text of scripture calls any part of scripture "the Old Testament".

2. In the Old Testament we have the NEW COVENANT: Jer 31:31-34

3. In the NEW Covenant we have the LAW of God known to Jeremiah and his readers - written on the heart and mind.

4. In the NEW Testament we are reminded that - that law includes the TEN having "'honor your father and mother' as the first commandment with a promise" Eph 6:2

5. Bible details so obvious that Bible scholars in almost all Christian denominations on BOTH sides of the Sabbath debate -- admit to them.

BobRyan said:

"Do not take God's name in vain" Ex 20:7 - still a sin to break that commandment to this very day.

Even in the NT "sin IS transgression of the LAW" 1 John 3:4

That LAW which includes the TEN having "' honor your father and mother' as the first commandment with a promise" Eph 6:2

Jeremiah points out that the NEW COVENANT writes the LAW of God known to Jeremiah and his readers on heart and mind Jer 31:31-34

Paul says "Do we then nullify the LAW of God by our faith? God forbid! In fact we ESTABLISH the Law" Rom 3:31

"what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God" 1 Cor 7:19

Matt 19 Jesus said "KEEP the Commandments" and is asked "which ones" - at that point Jesus quotes from the LAW of Moses "alone".

From the TEN Commandments in fact.

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You would need to to know Gods name to take His name in vain...


Revelation 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.



Sin is the transgresion not of the lasw that is abolished..


2 Corinthians 3:13 And not as Moses, which put a veil over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:


Hebrews 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.



There is a change of the law ( no change is your nonsense)..



Hebrews 7:12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.



This is the change of the law and what law we are under now and what law is established ONLY..


Galatians 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

Galatians 6:2 Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ.

Romans 3:27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

Romans 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.




All ten commandment are remembered in the new testament, apart from sabbath ( neither is law keeping of clean or unclean kept)

I challenge you again, on this thread, to be direct, and give the ten commandments that includes teaching to observe the sabbath, for the Gentiles whose light Christ came for.

I can provide you the nine, but the sabbath is ommited in the new testament.

Example of the nine that men are shown to break..



Romans 1:29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.



If you have no wisdom or honesty to understand the purpose of the above testimony, I will explain it for you easily.

All the 9 commandments men break, is doing evil against another, but to break the sabbath is to do evil to ourselves, not to others.

Now, we do good to others in bearing the burdens to fulfil the law of Christ, and as seen in Jesus, He did bear our burdens on all days, or try to challenge me if you can.

Dale said:

Soyeong: “ Paul never stopped identifying as a Pharisee (Acts 23:6), and we are told to follow his example (Hebrews 11:1), so most of the NT was written by a Pharisee and we are told to follow the example of a Pharisee.”

This isn’t true at all. If you think Paul was still a Pharisee, you need to read the Book of Galatians. You’re lifting one tidbit from the scripture and going off on a tangent. When Paul was brought before the Sanhedrin, he reminded them that he had been trained as a Pharisee. This was excellent strategy, and it succeeded in dividing the Sanhedrin. It is not a window into who Paul is.

Then Paul, knowing that some of them were Sadducees and the others Pharisees, called out in the Sanhedrin, “My brothers, I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee. I stand on trial because of my hope in the resurrection of the dead.”
When he said this, a dispute broke out between the Pharisees and the Sadducees, and the assembly was divided.

Acts 23:6-7 NIV

The verse from Hebrews you referenced doesn’t tell us to follow anyone’s example, it is a statement about faith.

Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see.
Hebrews 11:1 NIV

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Acts 23:6 Now when Paul perceived that one part were Sadducees and the other Pharisees, he cried out in the council, “Brothers, I am a Pharisee, a son of Pharisees

In this verse, Paul notably did not state that he had trained as a Pharisee, but that he is a Pharisee, so to deny that he identified as a Pharisee is to reject what he said at face value. Yes, he divided the Sanhedrin, but that does not mean that his claim to be a Pharisee was false, deceptive, or not about who he is. In Acts 15:5, it states that there were believers who belonged to the party of Pharisees, so then is nothing contrary with a believer being a Pharisee and there is nothing in Galatians that speaks against Pharisees as a whole. In fact the word "Pharisee" is not even used once in Galatians. Ah, sorry, I meant to say 1 Corinthians 11:1: Be imitators of me, as I am of Christ.

The people had not received the Holy Ghost, Apostle Paul asked what baptism they had been baptized with ? They said to John ( the baptist) and Paul said they should believe on Jesus Christ ( they had not heard of any Holy Ghost)

Then they hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ. The Holy Ghost came upon them.

Then do we not know that we which were baptized, were baptized into the death of Jesus Christ, buried in that baptism to His death with Him, and like Christ was raised up by glory of the Father we should also walk in newness of life.

We were required to be branches in Christ, this is us being planted together in the likeness of His death, to be also in the likeness of His resurrection, our old man is crucified with Him ( before His crucifixion we are the old man) and we in the body of sin that becomes crucified once crucified with Christ in baptism.....





Acts 19:2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

Romans 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.




Law keeping and believing, such as being circumcised then is not any thing, but a new creature is everything.

The Galatians received the Spirit by the hearing of faith, not by what the law had done, but by what Jesus had done, by His faith to die for us and to rise again, this is exampled in Abraham believing God of the promise of faith and this is righteousness..




Galatians 6:15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.

Galatians 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
4 Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain.
5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.




Jesus taught how new wine must be put into new bottles, to preserve both. Jesus led the way in this, by the blood of the new covenant, which was shed for many, and by His body which was broken for us, to make the new body.
Then we are told, that Christ died for all as all were dead, then we know no man any more after the flesh, we know Christ now also without the flesh. Then if anyone is in Christ ( we being the branches in the vine) they are a new creature, all becomes new, all is of God, who reconciled us to Himself by Jesus Christ, giving us this ministry of reconciliation..



Matthew 9:16 No man putteth a piece of new cloth unto an old garment, for that which is put in to fill it up taketh from the garment, and the rent is made worse.
17 Neither do men put new wine into old bottles: else the bottles break, and the wine runneth out, and the bottles perish: but they put new wine into new bottles, and both are preserved.

2 Corinthians 5:14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:
15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.
16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.
17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;




Jesus then in His flesh abolishes the law of commandments, to make this new man.

The old man then is put off, and his deceitful lusts and deeds, to be renewed in the spirit of your mind, to put on the new man, and after God this is created in righteousness and TRUE HOLINESS, ( the Lord sanctified previously a day which had no truth, the sabbath, but now sanctifies all our days truly through Christ) then they put away lying ( they do this by being given the Spirit of Christ by believing in Christs rising from the dead to life) as now we being in the vine are members one of another ( the branches cannot be in the vine until all can be members one of another)

The new man put on is renewed in knowledge ( renewed in the spirit of your mind) after the image of Him that created him, and then Christ is all in all ( then the vine is in all the branches and all the branches are in Him)

Then as the elect of God they put on bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness and long suffering, forgiving one another and putting ion charity as this is the bond of perfectness ( put on Christ the new man)...





Ephesians 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

Ephesians 4:22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
25 Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another.

Colossians 3:9 Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;
10 And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:
11 Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.
12 Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;
13 Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye.
14 And above all these things put on charity, which is the bond of perfectness.




The law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus makes us free from the law of sin and death, which is all that is before the resurrection of Christ.

Boasting then is by the law of faith ( by nothing else it is all nothing)

Bearing one another's burdens is the law of Christ, and to be found in Him ( in the vine and we the branches) it is not by the law, but it is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith, is to know Him and the power of His resurrection, and the fellowship of His sufferings, to be made conformable unto His death...




Romans 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

Romans 3:27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

Galatians 6:2 Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ.

Philippians 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;

Dale said:

For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another. Hebrews 8:7 NIV

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King James Version
7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.

8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:


the fault was with the people not the covenant

Put you NIV in the trash as it based on two Darwin followers translations.

post #2 updated as per Dale's apparent request in his post below.

BobRyan said:

Dale said:

Did Jesus tell us to worship on the sabbath day, either as a continuation of Old Testament law, or for any other reason?

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1. He never quoted the command "do not take God's name in vain" but that does not mean we are free to do it without that still being "a sin" just as it always was for anyone who did it , in all of time.

2. The NT writers tell us that it was Jesus speaking at Sinai - speaking His Commandments, the TEN were spoken by Him to mankind.

3. Scripture tells us that for all eternity after the cross "from Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL MANKIND come before Me to worship" Is 66:23

4. Jesus tells us the "Sabbath was made FOR mankind" Mark 2:27

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So far this part of that post appears to be irrefutable..

Dale said:

Summary of the thread, Jesus Left the Day of Worship Open.

In the OP, I quoted 17 verses of scripture from Corinthians, Matthew, Mark and Luke. I quoted Corinthians and the three synoptic Gospels.

Bob Ryan has made twelve posts but made no attempt to answer the points I made. In post #2, he changes the subject to the Ten Commandments, or whether Jesus issued the Ten Commandments.

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1. Hopefully you will find post #2 more enjoyable now.
2. How is affirming the TEN Commandments NOT a statement that includes affirmation of the Sabbath Commandment found IN the Ten ? Particularly when we see it is to be observed by all mankind for all eternity after the cross in the New Earth???

Dale said:

Trying to answer the vague points made in posts #2 & #5, I quoted nine verses from Galatians, in my post #8. In reply, post #12, Bob Ryan again offered no alternative interpretation.

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Because you did not make any statement in post #8 that says Gal 3 deletes the Commandments of God or deletes Isaiah 66:23 regarding the New Earth or deletes the teaching of Christ in Mark 2:27.

Details matter.

Dale said:

He also changes the subject to taking the Lord’s name in vain.

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Gal 3 in your post does not mention even one Commandment - not even the Sabbath commandment. The point remains - having no argument from scripture that deletes God's Commandments you can't then claim that the affirmation of them is not an affirmation of the Sabbath commandment they contain.

Were we simply "not supposed to notice"??

Dale said:

Did Jesus tell us to worship on the sabbath day, either as a continuation of Old Testament law, or for any other reason? He did not. He could have said “When you come together on the sabbath …” but that’s not what He said. What He did say: “Whenever you drink it …” Jesus left the day of communion and the day of worship open.

Evangelical Protestants recognize baptism and communion as the ordinances that Jesus laid down for the church. We know that Jesus had His disciples baptize all who came forward, and they baptized on any day of the week. There is no association of baptism with the sabbath or any other day of the week. Neither is it possible to associate communion, the Lord’s Supper, with any day of the week.

For I received from the Lord what I also passed on to you:
The Lord Jesus, on the night he was betrayed, took bread,
and when he had given thanks, he broke it and said, “This is
my body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of me.”
In the same way, after supper he took the cup, saying, “This
cup is the new covenant in my blood; do this, whenever you
drink it, in remembrance of me.”
I Corinthians 11:23-25 NIV

“Whenever you drink it…” leaves the day open.

While they were eating, Jesus took bread, gave thanks and
broke it, and gave it to his disciples, saying, “Take and eat;
this is my body.”
Then he took the cup, gave thanks and offered it to them,
saying, “Drink from it, all of you.
This is my blood of the [Some manuscripts: the new]
covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of
sins.
I tell you, I will not drink of this fruit of the vine from now on
until that day when I drink it anew with you in my Father’s
kingdom.”
When they had sung a hymn, they went out to the Mount of
Olives.
Matthew 26:26-30 NIV

Jesus and the disciples take communion and sing a hymn. This is much like a worship service. Jesus doesn’t mention any day of the week, so the day is not relevant.

While they were eating, Jesus took bread, gave thanks and
broke it, and gave it to his disciples, saying, “Take it; this is
my body.”
Then he took the cup, gave thanks and offered it to them, and
they all drank from it.
“This is my blood of the [Some manuscripts: the new]
covenant, which is poured out for many,” he said to them.
“I tell you the truth, I will not drink again of the fruit of the
vine until that day when I drink it anew in the kingdom of
God.”
When they had sung a hymn, they went out to the Mount of
Olives.
Mark 14:22-26 NIV

Again, in Mark, Jesus and the Apostles take communion and sing a hymn. No day of the week is mentioned, so the day doesn’t matter.

After taking the cup, he gave thanks and said, “Take this and
divide it among you.
For I tell you I will not drink again of the fruit of the vine
until the kingdom of God comes.”
And he took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to
them, saying, “This is my body given for you; do this in
remembrance of me.”
In the same way, after the supper he took the cup, saying,
“This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured
out for you.
Luke 22: 17-20 NIV

In Luke, Jesus and the Apostles take communion. Translators agree that Luke associates the cup of wine with the “new covenant.” Jesus is not affirming Old Testament law, He introduces a New Covenant. Again, no day of the week is mentioned.

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Jesus allows Christians to worship, and take communion, on any day of the week. No day is preferred.

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Precisely, though it seems they did so on Sunday (Acts 20:7;
1 Corinthians 16:1-2; Revelation 1:10), which seems appropriate.

Soyeong said:

The command to keep the 7th day holy is not the command to worship God only on the 7th day. The Israelites worshiped God on every day, which included obeying His command to keep the 7th day holy. It is impossible to worship God by disobeying Him. Jesus was born under the law (Galatians 4:4), so he was obligated to obey it, and he was sinless, so he never broke it, which includes never breaking the command to keep the 7th day holy.

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The Lord's Supper was a Passover Seder, so what was said during it should not be removed from that context and applied to every day.

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Who made that rule? . . .And what difference does that make?

If Jesus intended to institute the Lord's Supper as a fulfillment of the angel of death passing over those where the blood of the lamb was applied (Passover), do you suggest he should have done it at some other time? If not, then it should be Passover, and that was only once a year.
Note that Jesus did not limit it to once a year, nor specify when and where.

So what's the NT issue?

Clare73 said:

Precisely, though it seems they did so on Sunday (Acts 20:7;
1 Corinthians 16:1-2; Revelation 1:10), which seems appropriate.

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It appears from Acts 20:7 that there was one sunday (not called the "Lord's day" in this case) where they met to break bread and bid farewell to Paul.

It appears from 1 Cor 16:1-2 that each week-day-1 (not called the "Lord's day" in this case) each person would lay up in store at home by himself - money to be later given to the church.

It appears from Rev 1:10 there is "a Lord's day" but no day of the week is assigned to it in Rev 1. We only have "the Holy Day of the Lord" from Is 58:13 and "Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath" Mark 2:28 for assigning a specific day to the term.

BobRyan said:

1. He never quoted the command "do not take God's name in vain" but that does not mean we are free to do it without that still being "a sin" just as it always was for anyone who did it , in all of time.

2. The NT writers tell us that it was Jesus speaking at Sinai - speaking His Commandments, the TEN were spoken by Him to mankind.

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3. Scripture tells us that for all eternity after the cross "from Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL MANKIND come before Me to worship" Is 66:23

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There is no "all eternity" in that verse.

4. Jesus tells us the "Sabbath was made FOR mankind" Mark 2:27

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And "the rest of the story"? (Paul Harvey)

And NOT mankind FOR the Sabbath.
The OT Sabbath was made for mankind's
rest (Deuteronomy 5:14; Exodus 34:21).

And there remains a NT fulfillment of that Sabbath-rest in Jesus Christ (Hebrews 4:9).

The NT Sabbath-rest is God's own (Hebrews 3:11, 4:3) full-time (Hebrews 4:4) Sabbath-rest--not a one-day-a-week rest--for the NT people of God, in Christ's salvation where we (spiritually) "also rest from our own work" (Hebrews 4:10).

In the following, the writer addresses Hebrew Christian converts, urging them to enter God's Sabbath-rest.

Hebrews 4:
8: For if Joshua had given them rest (in Canaan) God would not have spoken later about another day, "Today" (Psalms 95:7).
9: There remains then a Sabbath-rest for the people of God;
10: for anyone who enters God's rest also rests from his own work, just as God did from his.
11: Let us therefore make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will fall by following their example of obedience.

So the writer is urging the Hebrew Christian converts to enter God's own Sabbath-rest.

Now why would Hebrews need to be urged to keep the Sabbath?
They wouldn't if you're talking about physical rest.

And what effort does it take to enter rest?
It doesn't, if you're talking about physical rest.

From what do you fall if you fail to enter rest?
Nothing, if you're talking about physical rest.

Hebrews 4:8-11 is not talking about the physical Saturday Sabbath.
It is talking about the fulfillment of the OT physical Saturday Sabbath-rest in the NT spiritual full-time Sabbath-rest, in the salvation of Jesus Christ where we spritually rest full-time from our work to save.

Hebrews presents Jesus as the NT fulfillment of God's own full-time Sabbath-rest for his people.

BobRyan said:

It appears from Acts 20:7 that there was one sunday (not called the "Lord's day" in this case) where they met to break bread and bid farewell to Paul.
It appears from 1 Cor 16:1-2 that each week-day-1 (not called the "Lord's day" in this case) each person would lay up in store at home by himself - money to be later given to the church.

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It appears from Rev 1:10 there is "a Lord's day" but no day of the week is assigned to it in Rev 1. We only have "the Holy Day of the Lord" from Is 58:13 and "Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath" Mark 2:28 for assigning a specific day to the term.

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And it "appears" that they did have the Lord's Supper on a Sunday.

And it "appears" that they donated every Sunday what they had laid up.

And it "appears" that by the time of Revelation, 60 years after Jesus' death, Sunday had become known as the Lord's Day, which was also the common appellation for Sunday in the early church.

And it "appears," if one does not have a vested interested otherwise, that is a most reasonable conclusion.

Clare73 said:

Who made that rule? . . .And what difference does that make?

If Jesus intended to institute the Lord's Supper as a fulfillment of the angel of death passing over those where the blood of the lamb was applied (Passover), do you suggest he should have done it at some other time? If not, then it should be Passover, and that was only once a year.
Note that Jesus did not limit it to once a year, nor specify when and where.

So what's the NT issue?

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Jesus was taking an action as part of a Passover Seder, so that is the context in which what he speaking about should be understood.

Clare73 said:

Precisely, though it seems they did so on Sunday (Acts 20:7;
1 Corinthians 16:1-2; Revelation 1:10), which seems appropriate.

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In Acts 20:7, it is important to keep in mind that for Jews the day started at sundown, so a meeting on the first day of the week would have began on what we would refer to as Saturday at sundown. Jews have a longstanding tradition of meeting on the first day of the week for a Havdalah service on Saturday at sundown to mark the closing of the Sabbath and to welcome in the work week. Jews also traditionally didn't handle money on the Sabbath, so this was also a time when they would collect offerings (1 Corinthians 16:1-2). So Paul spoke from evening until midnight, not from morning until midnight, and then left on Sunday morning to travel. This does not establish that they met on Sunday morning, and even if they had, it wouldn't establish that this was the start of a new tradition, and even if it was, it wouldn't establish that they hypocritically set aside God's command to keep the Sabbath in order to establish their own tradition, and even if they had, it wouldn't establish that we should follow in their example of sin. In regard to Revelation 1:10, the day of the Lord has a specific meaning in Jewish eschatology that refers to the day that John was seeing in his vision, not to the day of the week that he happened to have his vision.