WHY SALVATION CAN BE LOST

The Liturgist said:

The simplified Noachide law was adopted at the Council of Jerusalem, recorded in Acts 15, and it imposes a very simple tequirement on Christians, “28For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things; 29That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well.” The quote of St. Peter at the start of the Council of Jerusalem, and the introduction to said council in Acts 15:5, is also edifying in this regard; notably, it establishes St. Peter, who did not preside over the Council of Jerusalem (that task fell to St. James the Just) but was clearly considered primus inter pares among the Apostles, to the extent that after the destruction of Jerusalem in 130 AD, the three most important Patriarchates in the early church became those associated with him, namely Antioch, where he presided over the church before traveling to Rome to refute the heresy of Simon Magus, and also Alexandria, the founding bishop of which was St. Mark the Evangelist, who is generally regarded as a disciple of St. Peter. The following pericope also demonstrates that the doctrine of the abolition of the Mosaic Law was not an exclusively Pauline doctrine, but was also Petrine, after St. Paul “withstood St. Peter to his face” and forcefully convinced him, and St. James and the other apostles concurred as well. But here is the pericope in question, the opening of the Council of Jerusalem: 5But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses. 6And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter. 7And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men andbrethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe. 8And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us; 9And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. 10Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? 11But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.

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Once again thanks for posting scripture but once again Acts of the Apostles 15 is not relevant. This is because once again there is no scripture this time in Acts 15 that says anywhere that a believer can depart the faith and return to a life of known unrepentant sin and still receive Gods' salvation.

If your taking the view that Acts of the Apostles 15 teaches that Gods' 10 commandments are abolished then you have Paul in contradiction with Paul when he says sometime latter to the Corinthian gentile believers sometime after the Jerusalem council that "circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing but the keeping of the commandments of God" in 1 Corinthians 7:19.

You may also want to consider the scripture context your disregarding here that shows that Acts of the Apostles 15 was never over the question are Gods' 10 commandments still the standard of Christian living but was over the question "Is circumcision a requirement for the salvation of new gentile believers" This was the question that Paul and Barnabas went to Jerusalem to discuss, not are Gods' 10 commandments still the standard for Christian living. Let's look at the scriptures in detail and add the contexts back in that you have left out here...

Acts of the Apostles 15:1:21
[1], And certain men who came down from Judea taught the brethren, and said, EXCEPT YOU BE CIRCUMCISED AFTER THE MANNER OF MOSES YOU CANNOT BE SAVED.

NOTE: ACTS 15:1 is the question that needs to be answered and the topic of conversation and CONTEXT of the chapter of ACTS 15. Here we have Jewish believers coming to Paul and Barnabas saying if the new GENTILES believers are not circumcised and made proselytes then they cannot be saved. This is the chapter context and issue of contention.

[2], When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and dispute with them, THEY DETERMINED THAT PAUL AND BARNABAS AND CERTAIN OF THEM SHOULD GO UP TO JERUSALEM UNTO THE APOSTLES AND ELDERS ABOUT THIS QUESTION.

NOTE: ACTS 15:2 Which question? Weather your salvation depends on being CIRCUMCISED.

They then traveled to Jerusalem about this question to determine if new gentile believers needed to be CIRCUMCISED in order to be saved. Once they got to Jerusalem, the question was then asked and the discussion continued with the Pharisees stating their case first..

[5], But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees who believed, saying, It is needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.

NOTE: KEEP in mind here the question was never over if gentile believers should obey God's 10 Commandments but to keep the Shadow laws of Moses, in this case CIRCUMCISION as a means of salvation. CIRCUMCISION is from the law of MOSES not God’s 10 Commandments written by God on two tables of stone.

[6], And the apostles and elders came together TO CONSIDER THIS MATTER.

NOTE: Again the topic of discussion and chapter CONTEXT that is being considered is the question stated in ACTS 15:1 which was IS CIRCUMCISION A REQUIREMENT OF SALVATION?

[7], And when there had been much disputing, PETER ROSE UP, AND SAID UNTO THEM, MEN AND BRETHREN, YOU KNOW HOW THAT A GOOD WHILE AGO GOD MADE CHOICE AMONG US, THAT THE GENTILES BY MY MOUTH SHOULD HEAR THE WORD OF THE GOSPEL, AND BELIEVE.
[8], And God, who knows the hearts, bore them witness, GIVING THEM THE HOLY SPIRIT, EVEN AS HE DID UNTO US;

NOTE: After much discussion between the Apostles, Peter then rose up showing that God gave the gentile believers the Holy Spirit being UNCIRCUMCISED.

[9], AND PUT NO DIFFERENCE BETWEEN US AND THEM, PURIFYING THEIR HEARTS BY FAITH.
[10], NOW THEREFORE WHY TEST GOD, TO PUT A YOKE UPON THE NECK OF THE DISCIPLES, WHICH NEITHER OUR FATHERS NOR WE WERE ABLE TO BEAR?
[11], But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.

NOTE: They came to the conclusion then that salvation is not by being circumcised but be what circumcision pointed to. A new heart by faith. This is made plain latter in other scripture written by PAUL here...

ROMANS 2 [25] For circumcision verily profits, if you keep the law: but if you are a breaker of the law, your circumcision is made uncircumcision. [26], Therefore if the uncircumcision keeps the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision? [27], And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfils the law, judge you, who by the letter and circumcision do transgress the law? [28], FOR HE IS NOT A JEW, WHO IS ONE; NEITHER IS THAT CIRCUMCISION, WHICH IS OF THE OUTWARD FLESH: [29], BUT HE IS A JEW WHICH IS ONE INWARDLY; AND CIRCUMCISION IS THAT OF THE HEART, IN THE SPIRIT AND NOT IN THE LETTER; WHOSE PRAISE IS NOT OF MEN BUT OF GOD.

If ACTS 15 was talking about the 10 Commandments then Paul's writings in to the CORINTHIANS do not make any sense and makes Paul a hypocrite which we know he is not.

1 CORINTHIANS 7 [19] CIRCUMCISION IS NOTHING, AND UNCIRCUMCISION IS NOTHING, BUT THE KEEPING OF THE COMMANDMENTS OF GOD.

As shown through the scriptures alone, Acts 15 has nothing to do with God’s commandments. In fact after the Jerusalem decision Paul is saying to the Corinthian believers “Circumcision is nothing (the result of the meeting of Jerusalem) that is the Mosaic shadow law of CIRCUMCISION is not a requirement for salvation. BUT, according to Paul the KEEPING OF THE COMMANDMENTS OF GOD is important. Let's continue...


[12], Then all the multitude kept silence, and listened to Barnabas and Paul declaring what miracles and wonders God had done among the Gentiles by them.
[13], And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men and brethren, hearken unto me:
[14], Simeon has declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.
[15], And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,
[16], After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:
[17], That the rest of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, says the Lord, who does all these things.
[18], Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.
[19], THEREFORE MY JUDGMENT IS THAT WE TROUBLE NOT THEM WHO FROM THE GENTILES ARE TURNED TO GOD:
[20], BUT WRITE UNTO THEM THAT THEY ABSTAIN FROM THE DEFILEMENT OF IDOLS, FORNICATION AND THINGS STRANGLED AND FROM BLOOD.

NOTE: JAMES conclusion is that new Gentile believers should not be troubled with CIRCUMCISION as a requirement of salvation which was the matter being considered and the question being discussion as shown in *ACTS 15:1-2; ACTS 15:6 but asks them to abstain from idols, fornication and from things strangled and from blood.

[21], FOR MOSES OF OLD TIME HAS IN EVERY CITY THEM THAT PREACH HIM, BEING READ IN THE SYNAGOGUES EVERY SABBATH.

NOTE: The reason why JAMES sends this letter to the new Gentile believers is that they would continue learning God's WORD EVERY SABBATH.

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CONCLUSION: So the conclusion of the matter with context added back in is found in v19-20. We are not to trouble the new gentile believers with circumcision which is not a requirement for salvation. They are new converts that will learn more about GOD'S WORD when? EVERY SABBATH. In the meantime you should abstain from anything offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication. Nothing written about Gods' 10 Commandments being abolished in this chapter. Here is what PAUL says of the matter here as posted earlier to the Corinthian gentile believers sometime latter after the decision at Jerusalem... 1 CORINTHIANS 7 [19] CIRCUMCISION IS NOTHING, AND UNCIRCUMCISION IS NOTHING, BUT THE KEEPING OF THE COMMANDMENTS OF GOD.

more to come...

The Liturgist said:

From this I believe it is clear that the question of the perseverance of the saints cannot be settled on the basis of the Scriptural text alone, but is rather a matter of interpretation, however, there does seem to be an extremely compelling Scriptural argument that the Mosaic law is no longer in effect. For some time I mistakenly was annoyed by the Lutheran emphasis on the dichotomy of Law and Gospel, but now, having become more learned in the faith, I have come to appreciate it much more. I further believe an analogy can be drawn between it and the Eastern Christian hamartiology, which is medicinal rather than forensic in nature, regarding sins as the inevitable consequence of a disease we inherit, but can overcome through the grace of the Holy Spirit if not in this life, then surely in the world to come, rather than crimes against Divine law. Indeed, this is further reflected in the Koine Greek word that is translated in English as sin, “hamartia,” which literally means, “to miss the mark.”

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Sorry but I respectfully disagree with these claim. Scripture clearly shows that salvation can be lost if we choose to depart the faith (scriptures support here and scriptures support here) and that God's salvation is conditional on believing and following what Gods' Word says (scripture support here). Faith therefore in Gods' Word is the very foundation of our salvation and the condition of receiving God's Grace (Ephesians 2:8-9) which we receive through faith and this faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God *Romans 10:17 so faith and God's Word cannot be separated. If we have no Word there can be no faith and if there is no faith it is impossible to please God *Hebrews 11:6 because whatsoever is not of faith is sin *Romans 14:23. Which leads us back to where we started. If the scriptures teach that we can choose at any time as believers to depart the faith and return to a life of unbelief and known unrepentant sin and lose our salvation, where is the scriptures that teach we can depart the faith and return to a life of known unrepentant sin and be saved? There is none! If we could choose to depart the faith and live in known unrepentant sin and receive Gods' salvation then there would not be any need for warnings from the scriptures telling us differently. The Greek word for sin does mean "miss the mark" but the context to scripture and application of missing the mark is to the standard of God's 10 commandments and faith as shown in Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4; Romans 3:20 and Romans 14:23 which is taught all through the new testament (scripture support here linked). Once again, therefore there is no scripture that says anywhere that we can depart the faith and return to living a life of known unrepentant sin and still be salved. This teaching is not biblical.

Hope this is helpful.

returntosender said:

I don't know about you but I fell away more than once. I never stopped loving God but I was inactive. I believe God's arms are always open, waiting

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I think the point in this OP is departing the faith and continuing in known unrepentant sin as the scripture says. Of course I believe repentant sin can be forgiven *see 1 John 2:1-4; 1 John 1:9.

God bless

spiritfilledjm said:

I do not believe so. God said to believe, not to believe and observe a legal Sabbath to be saved.

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So you believe you can continue in known unrepentant sin and be saved? Isn't this against the teachings of all the scriptures posted earlier in the OP (scriptures support here and scriptures support here) showing that if we choose to depart the faith and continue in a life on known unrepentant sin we will lose our salvation? Let's for example remove the word "sabbath" and replace it with say the word "adultery" both of course from Gods' 10 commandments that give us the knowledge of what sin is when broken *Exodus 20:8-11; Exodus 20:14; Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4. According to the scriptures if someone chooses to depart the faith and continues in known unrepentant sin committing adultery, are they in a saved state with God or an unsaved state with God according to the scriptures *Hebrews 10:26-31; Hebrews 6:4-8; James 4:17? What it all comes down to then is the bibles definition of what sin is. Sin is defined in the bible as breaking anyone of God's 10 commandments *see Romans 7:7; Romans 3:20; 1 John 3:4 and James 2:10-11 and not believing and following God's Word *see Romans 14:23 and James 2:17-26. We cannot therefore expect to depart the faith and return to a life of unbelief (sin) and breaking anyone of God's 10 commandments (sin) and expect to receive Gods' salvation according to the scriptures because by doing this we have passed from believers to unbelievers.

spiritfilledjm said:

Taking either side in an argument that is ultimately how God, in His infinite knowledge of all that was, is, and shall ever be, sees things VS. How man, in his own completely finite knowledge of things that they have only experienced and seen up to this moment, sees things usually is.

Compound that with the fact that God seemingly expects us to operate in our own limited way of understanding by commanding us to choose when He already knows the choice we will make but still expecting us to make that choice, and we have quite the conundrum about which side is actually right or wrong. This is why I believe that, when it comes to these situations that, at its root level, is God's way of thinking VS. Man's way, it's a bit of both, and even then, only because of what God expects of us.

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For me this argument does not take into account that God gives His Spirit to guide us and lead us into the truth of His Word through His promises if we turn away from the teachings and traditions of men and seek him for a knowledge of the truth of His Word. (see John 16:13; John 8:31-36; John 14:26; John 7:17; 1 John 2:27). This of course is also a part of God's new covenant promise from Hebrews 8:10-12 from Jeremiah 31:31-34 and Ezekiel 36:24-27. We can only find the truth of God's Word as we seek it as a gift through the Spirit of the one who knows it. We will not find it in the word of website but in the Word of God as we prayerfully claim God's promises. (PS see comments below to @tampasteve)

tampasteve said:

So, if my life followed the pattern below, what would be my status in salvation:
1. I believed myself to be saved, to be a follower of Christ, Baptized and went to church every Sabbath.
2. But then fell away, stopped worshiping on either Saturday or Sunday.
3. Stopped believing Jesus was the Christ.
4. Started conversion to Judaism and observed a Saturday Sabbath.
5. Turned back to believing in Jesus through study and perseverance and observed a Saturday Sabbath..
6. Repented my sins from the previous period.
7. Did not believe the "Sabbath" is restricted to Friday-Saturday observance, but did believe a Sabbath Rest is commanded.
8. Attended a Sunday observance Church faithfully and joined as a functioning member while also observing a Sabbath Rest on Sunday.
Would I be living in "unrepented sin" as a formerly Saturday Sabbath observing Christian but now with a different understanding of the Scripture commanded to Gentiles in light of the Church?

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The point here that I wish to make in what you have posted above is that not believing in Christ is still known unrepentant sin and fits into the category and scriptures in Hebrews 10:26-31 or Hebrews 6:4-8 being discussed in this OP because the scriptures teach that whatsoever is not of faith is sin in Romans 14:23. So if we choose to reject Gods' Word and faith in Christ as our only means of salvation then it is just as much sin as breaking anyone of God's 10 commandments as shown in James 2:10-11. According to the scriptures sin is defined as breaking anyone of God's 10 commandments as shown in James 2:10-11; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4 and Romans 3:20 and not believing and following God's Word in Romans 14:23 and James 2:17-26 (unbelief or rejecting God's Word). So it is not an argument about one or the other it is about both faith and works (believing and following God's Word) because James says anything else is of the devil.

Just so there is no misunderstanding let me explain a little further from the scriptures. According to the scriptures, we are saved by grace through faith and not of ourselves it is a gift of God and not of works lest any man should boast *Ephesians 2:8-9. Obedience to God's law is not how we are saved because all of us have already broken the law and are under it's penalty of condemnation and death *Romans 3:9-23; 2 Corinthians 3:3-11. So it is by God's grace through faith that we are saved through Gods forgiveness of our sins. According to the scriptures, obedience to Gods' law therefore is the fruit of genuine faith of one that is already been given Gods promise of salvation and the fruit of God's work in us *Philippians 2:13 as we believe and follow his word *John 10:26-27.

According to James as posted earlier if our faith has no fruit it is dead *James 2:18-20; 26 and our tree will be cast down and thrown into the fire *Matthew 3:10; 7:19-20; 13:49-50; Hebrews 10:26-27. Therefore we do not abolish God's law through faith like some people teach but God's law is established in the heart by faith that works by love *Romans 3:31; 1 John 5:3-4; Romans 13:8-10. According to the scriptures, sin (breaking God' commandments and not believing and following God's Word) is the difference between the children of God and the children of the devil *1 John 3:6-10; Revelation 12:17; Revelation 14:12; Revelation 22:14. Therefore says Jesus you shall know them (who is from God and who is not) by their fruit. *Matthew 7:16-20; John 15:1-6; 1 John 2:3-4.

Hope this is helpful