Pacifism

Tellyontellyon · Oct 19, 2021

I may be wrong, but as far as I can tell, the early Christians were pacifists and that seemed to be what Jesus wanted.
He wanted his followers to turn the other cheek, he didn't want his followers to fight with the sword, or for people to be stoned to death...There might have been a bit of whipping with chords and overturning tables... but no killing or extreme violence...

Should Christians stick to this today?
Yes/no/maybe?
What is the biblical message about this?

friend of · Oct 19, 2021

Tellyontellyon said:
Should Christians stick to this today?
Yes/no/maybe?
What is the biblical message about this?

I think so. But Jesus didn't condemn the centurion who had great faith about his job as a soldier. He overlooked that fact. So while I think it's probably wise to not put yourself in the situation where you may have to take the life of another human being, I do not find that the bible condemns joining the military. I mean, just look at all the wars that were fought in the Old Testament, for example.

Pavel Mosko · Oct 19, 2021

Christianity has largely been a pacifist religion, but has also honored those people who carry the sword as ministers of God to secure the peace Romans 13:4. (There were never any calls for Roman soldiers and centurions to give up their profession when they converted unlike prostitutes' and other unsavory professions).

There were some changes sociologically in the Faith when the German tribes were converted in the early middle ages where they wanted warrior priests to follow them into battle in the same way that priests of Odin and Thor use to. But this again reminds me of Buddhism etc with their warrior monks etc.

Mark Quayle · Oct 19, 2021

Tellyontellyon said:
I may be wrong, but as far as I can tell, the early Christians were pacifists and that seemed to be what Jesus wanted.
He wanted his followers to turn the other cheek, he didn't want his followers to fight with the sword, or for people to be stoned to death...There might have been a bit of whipping with chords and overturning tables... but no killing or extreme violence...

Should Christians stick to this today?
Yes/no/maybe?
What is the biblical message about this?

Not that you are unaware of this, but situations are different. Judea was already occupied at the time of Christ, and he purposely rejected revolt and rebellion because that was not what he was there to do. It was a riddle to those who had believed the Messiah would come to set them free from oppression.

In the USA, for example, citizens are the government, according to the notion of "of the people, by the people and for the people". What we call the government should be minimal for that reason. But what departs from the constitution should be resisted and corrected, not swallowed with the rest of the corruption we already put up with.

For what it is worth, the many examples of 'anything-but-pacifism' we see, particularly in the Old Testament, are by the Word of God also. Jesus doesn't teach pacifism. He teaches peace, at the cost of his own life. The point of view is necessarily not ours, concerning what this means.

christian1724 · Oct 19, 2021

Tellyontellyon said:
I may be wrong, but as far as I can tell, the early Christians were pacifists and that seemed to be what Jesus wanted. ...
Should Christians stick to this today?
Yes/no/maybe?
What is the biblical message about this?

The apostle Peter did carry a sword.

John 18:10-11 Then Simon Peter having a sword drew it, and smote the high priest's servant, and cut off his right ear. The servant's name was Malchus. 11 Then said Jesus unto Peter, Put up thy sword into the sheath: the cup which my Father hath given me, shall I not drink it?

Luke 22:35-36 And he said unto them, When I sent you without purse, and scrip, and shoes, lacked ye any thing? And they said, Nothing. 36 Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.

I think self defense and defense of others is not looked down upon, at least not in certain circumstances.

Mclachlan · Oct 19, 2021

Tellyontellyon said:
Should Christians stick to this today?
Yes/no/maybe?
What is the biblical message about this?

I believe it depends on the circumstances. Jesus tells us to 'turn the cheek.' And to 'pray and love those who persecute.'
And the disciples teach us to strive to leave at peace with everyone.

But we are also need to use discernment.

For example, if it is within our ability to stop a murderer from killing our child. Of course, our first instinct would be to de whatever it takes to protect our child. And if that means harming the murderer, it is perhaps the most loving thing a parent can do in that circumstance.

Here are some passages:
Mark 3:4
And he said to them, “Is it lawful on the Sabbath to do good or to do harm, to save life or to kill?” But they were silent.

Proverbs 24:11
Rescue those who are being taken away to death;
hold back those who are stumbling to the slaughter.

The uniqueness about Christianity is that God will bring every deed into judgement. 2 Corinthians 5:10
And a believer has eternal life, death no longer has hold on us. 1 Corinthians 15:55
So whatever happens to us, we need not fear. In fact dying is to our benefit.

Tellyontellyon · Oct 19, 2021

Mark Quayle said:
But what departs from the constitution should be resisted and corrected,

Is the US Constitution considered scripture now? Lol

Tellyontellyon · Oct 19, 2021

christian1724 said:
The apostle Peter did carry a sword.

That Jesus told him not to use?

christian1724 · Oct 19, 2021

“Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a great battle.” - Philo of Alexandria

Pavel Mosko, that is a great quote!

christian1724 · Oct 19, 2021

Tellyontellyon said:
That Jesus told him not to use?

Absolutely
Jesus explained why he was no to use it. He didn't tell Peter that the reason he shouldn't use it was because he should be a pacifist. He told Peter not to use it because it was His Father's will what was about to come to pass.

I'll bet that Peter was carrying that sword with him on many previous occasions with Jesus. I bet Jesus didn't say to Peter years earlier, "Good thing you have that sword, we can fillet fish now."

Mark Quayle · Oct 19, 2021

Tellyontellyon said:
Is the US Constitution considered scripture now? Lol

Hardly! No, my use of it had to do with the question of pacifism, particularly the extreme pacifism of non-involvement in political matters.

Seems strange to me that you would go there. Did something I say lead you to consider I might actually think that?

DamianWarS · Oct 19, 2021

Tellyontellyon said:
I may be wrong, but as far as I can tell, the early Christians were pacifists and that seemed to be what Jesus wanted.
He wanted his followers to turn the other cheek, he didn't want his followers to fight with the sword, or for people to be stoned to death...There might have been a bit of whipping with chords and overturning tables... but no killing or extreme violence...

Should Christians stick to this today?
Yes/no/maybe?
What is the biblical message about this?

Pacifism shouldn't be looked at the goal, which I think has often been confused as one, but rather a product of the goal. In this way our pacifism is measured and balanced by how it gives glory to God but not the other way around. This is similar to salvation which also has a widely misunderstood role. Salvation is not the goal, restored relationship with God is, salvation instead is a welcomed gift along the way and a product of belief in Christ.

Tellyontellyon · Oct 20, 2021

DamianWarS said:
Salvation is not the goal, restored relationship with God is, salvation instead is a welcomed gift along the way and a product of belief in Christ.

This reminds me of something a female Sufi said:
"If I adore You out of fear of Hell, burn me in Hell!
If I adore you out of desire for Paradise,
Lock me out of Paradise.
But if I adore you for Yourself alone,
Do not deny to me Your eternal beauty."
- Rabia al Basri

Tellyontellyon · Oct 20, 2021

Mark Quayle said:
non-involvement in political matters.

Mark 12:17
"And Jesus answering said unto them, Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's. And they marvelled at him."

This was said at a time when the Romans were occupying Israel and were forcing the Jews to pay taxes...
But Jesus didn't ask his followers to rebel against that, he was effectively telling his followers to simply go along with what the political status quo was and focus on the Kingdom of Heaven. It was their spiritual life he wanted them to focus on. The early Christian martyrs didn't defend themselves, they didn't need to...
Matthew 16:26
"For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?"

Mark Quayle · Oct 20, 2021

Tellyontellyon said:
Mark 12:17
"And Jesus answering said unto them, Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's. And they marvelled at him."

This was said at a time when the Romans were occupying Israel and were forcing the Jews to pay taxes...
But Jesus didn't ask his followers to rebel against that, he was effectively telling his followers to simply go along with what the political status quo was and focus on the Kingdom of Heaven. It was their spiritual life he wanted them to focus on. The early Christian martyrs didn't defend themselves, they didn't need to...
Matthew 16:26
"For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?"

I'm not sure if you post that in disagreement or agreement with what I said, or to point out something I failed to take into consideration.

Jesus did not disagree with anything the Old Testament has to say. I.e. pacifism is not the point of the Gospel, and is not even secondary to the spiritual life.

Tellyontellyon · Oct 20, 2021

Mark Quayle said:
Jesus did not disagree with anything the Old Testament has to say.

But according to Christians, and I think Jesus, the relationship to the old law had changed... that's the way I read it.
Jesus and the apostles seem to be saying that it is less about works and more about repentance, faith, love and forgiveness... He didn't come to overthrow the violence of the Romans, but to overthrow our hardened hearts. That's the impression I get anyway... But I'm not that well read, so, I'm open to being shown the NT scriptures that are relevant to all of this.

DamianWarS · Oct 20, 2021

Tellyontellyon said:
"And Jesus answering said unto them, Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's. And they marvelled at him."

This was said at a time when the Romans were occupying Israel and were forcing the Jews to pay taxes...
But Jesus didn't ask his followers to rebel against that, he was effectively telling his followers to simply go along with what the political status quo was and focus on the Kingdom of Heaven. It was their spiritual life he wanted them to focus on. The early Christian martyrs didn't defend themselves, they didn't need to...

the Jewish leaders were trying to corner Jesus into an answer that would implicate him. The Jews believed all was God's so the only answer that would satisfy them would be rejecting any roman claim so if Jesus didn't side with them he would be rejected but if he spoke down to the Roman system Roman authority would come down on him. The answer he gives however satisfies both at the same time. To the Roman, they hear a message that agrees with the Roman system, and to the Jew they hear a message that agrees with their system because if all is God's then what we give to Caesar is nothing. This answer would allow all Jews who heard this to joyfully affirm it as what they were affirming was an anti-roman sentiment hidden in plain sight (even those trying to trap him would probably have a slight smirk hearing this). I'm sure the Roman authorities would be smart to see this as an anti-message but would have no power to convict him since the words were so carefully chosen.

Does this mean Jesus is anti-establishment or government? no, it means he's smarter than our tricks and doesn't have time for our silliness of trying to make it one way or the other.

ViaCrucis · Oct 20, 2021

Tellyontellyon said:
I may be wrong, but as far as I can tell, the early Christians were pacifists and that seemed to be what Jesus wanted.
He wanted his followers to turn the other cheek, he didn't want his followers to fight with the sword, or for people to be stoned to death...There might have been a bit of whipping with chords and overturning tables... but no killing or extreme violence...

Should Christians stick to this today?
Yes/no/maybe?
What is the biblical message about this?

It was my reading of the early fathers of the Church, and taking what the New Testament says--quite seriously--that led me to conclude that non-violence is supposed to be part of what it means to be a Christian disciple.

Tertullian of Carthage wrote that when Jesus disarmed Peter, Jesus disarmed every soldier.

St. Justin Martyr says that Christians are those who, as the Prophets had declared long ago, convert their swords into plowshares and spears into pruning hooks.

Clement of Alexandria wrote that Christians are instructed in the way of peace.

Origen says that the Christian who prays for the emperor performs a far greater service to the emperor than the soldier who kills in the name of the emperor.

St. Hippolytus wrote that a catechumen (a person in the process of converting to Christianity, undergoing instruction, and to receive Baptism) who refused to reject his military oath was to face discipline by being denied Baptism.

St. Marcellus of Tangiers threw away his military belt in the presence of the emperor, because he had become a Christian, and for this act of treason earned himself a martyr's death.

St. Martin of Tours, even after the Roman Empire was "officially" Christian, said that as a Christian He was Christ's soldier, and thus it was not permitted of him to fight.

And that's barely scratching the surface.

-CryptoLutheran

Mark Quayle · Oct 20, 2021

Tellyontellyon said:
But according to Christians, and I think Jesus, the relationship to the old law had changed... that's the way I read it.
Jesus and the apostles seem to be saying that it is less about works and more about repentance, faith, love and forgiveness... He didn't come to overthrow the violence of the Romans, but to overthrow our hardened hearts. That's the impression I get anyway... But I'm not that well read, so, I'm open to being shown the NT scriptures that are relevant to all of this.

Yes that is true enough. I'm just trying to figure out why you said what you did (your last post to me). That does not disagree with what I said, nor even displace it.

Lukaris · Oct 20, 2021

St. Basil ( the great) provided counsels for the military. It seems that as an extreme last resort that force was a regrettable necessity. Perhaps this is what the Lord means in Luke 22:36-38.

Incommunion » St. Basil’s Guidance on War and Repentance

Pacifism

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