Imputation?

Thatgirloncfforums · Oct 19, 2021

Hi Everyone,

I have been hopping back and forth between the Orthodox and Lutheran forums in an effort to discern the differences between the two. One of my struggles is that both Churches and Rome seem to use the same language, but each claim to mean something different by it.

Rn, I am trying to understand imputation. I know that Sts. Bernard and Aquinas used the term. I also know thanks to Fr. LaGrange, that ideas of predestination, election, ect. are as Catholic as they are Lutheran.

As Catholics, what is your understanding of imputation (specifically as it refers to the righteousness of Christ)?

Thanks all!

Chesster · Oct 19, 2021

What is meant by the phrase, 'the righteousness of Christ'?

Michie · Oct 19, 2021

Roman Catholic view-
"The Catholic idea maintains that the formal cause of justification does not consist in an exterior imputation of the justice of Christ, but in a real, interior sanctification effected by grace, which abounds in the soul and makes it permanently holy before God.

Righteous, or ‘Reckoned’?

What Justifies a Christian?

chevyontheriver · Oct 19, 2021

Michie said:
Roman Catholic view-
"The Catholic idea maintains that the formal cause of justification does not consist in an exterior imputation of the justice of Christ, but in a real, interior sanctification effected by grace, which abounds in the soul and makes it permanently holy before God.

Righteous, or ‘Reckoned’?

What Justifies a Christian?

Imputation was the central point wherein I concluded that I should remain Catholic. My central insight was that something should only be said to be what it actually is. If we are imputed to be righteous by the righteousness of Christ then we are actually made righteous by the righteousness of Christ. No pretending.

Thatgirloncfforums · Oct 19, 2021

https://www.ccel.org/ccel/bernard/letters.lxiii.ii.vi.html

Chesster said:
What is meant by the phrase, 'the righteousness of Christ'?

Thatgirloncfforums · Oct 19, 2021

Are the merits of the saints interior as well?

Michie said:
Roman Catholic view-
"The Catholic idea maintains that the formal cause of justification does not consist in an exterior imputation of the justice of Christ, but in a real, interior sanctification effected by grace, which abounds in the soul and makes it permanently holy before God.

Righteous, or ‘Reckoned’?

What Justifies a Christian?

Thatgirloncfforums · Oct 19, 2021

What if the declaration is creative making us righteous, in the same way that God's word brought forth Creation?

chevyontheriver said:
Imputation was the central point wherein I concluded that I should remain Catholic. My central insight was that something should only be said to be what it actually is. If we are imputed to be righteous by the righteousness of Christ then we are actually made righteous by the righteousness of Christ. No pretending.

boughtwithaprice · Oct 19, 2021

Thatgirloncfforums said:
What if the declaration is creative making us righteous, in the same way that God's word brought forth Creation?

Ezekiel 36 explains the Catholic position well

I will sprinkle clean water over you to make you clean; from all your impurities and from all your idols I will cleanse you. I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.
31Then you will remember your evil behavior and your deeds that were not good; you will loathe yourselves for your sins and your abominations

The three theological virtues of Faith, Hope and Charity come from God alone. They cannot be arrived at by human reason alone, as the Bible says no one comes to me unless the Father draw him.
The four cardinal virtues are developed by human effort. These are justice, prudence, temperance and fortitude. They can be developed apart from God, but if not done for God they have no merit. When done in cooperation with God and for His glory, they merit a reward

as it says in revelation 3:20. I stand at the door and knock, whoever opens the door I will come in and dine with him and he with me

it is by faith that we participate in the sacraments. We eat the body and blood of Jesus to nourish our spirits and strengthen us against sin and decrease our concupiscence.
The sacrament of Penance allows us to receive grace to cleanse us from sin after Baptism.

As Catholics we do not consider it a one time
Imputation, but rather a continuous infusion of
grace, and that takes cooperation, a striving for the prize.

The Christian walk is a spiritual battle, as Paul says fight the good fight. The path is hard as Jesus says narrow is the way, straight is the gate that leads to life.

We know we are on the right path by four signs. Distrust of self (we cannot do it on our own, and if we try we will go the wrong way)
Confidence in God (God promises us that He will cleanse us, if we ask Him to do it. Ask and you shall receive, knock and it shall be opened to you. )
Right use of the faculties of mind and body (study the faith and discipline our bodies. Take up your cross and follow Jesus)
The duty of prayer ( if we don’t pray, we don’t talk to God. If we don’t talk to God, we receive nothing because we don’t ask)

Thatgirloncfforums · Oct 19, 2021

Thank you

boughtwithaprice said:
Ezekiel 36 explains the Catholic position well

I will sprinkle clean water over you to make you clean; from all your impurities and from all your idols I will cleanse you. I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.
31Then you will remember your evil behavior and your deeds that were not good; you will loathe yourselves for your sins and your abominations

The three theological virtues of Faith, Hope and Charity come from God alone. They cannot be arrived at by human reason alone, as the Bible says no one comes to me unless the Father draw him.
The four cardinal virtues are developed by human effort. These are justice, prudence, temperance and fortitude. They can be developed apart from God, but if not done for God they have no merit. When done in cooperation with God and for His glory, they merit a reward

as it says in revelation 3:20. I stand at the door and knock, whoever opens the door I will come in and dine with him and he with me

it is by faith that we participate in the sacraments. We eat the body and blood of Jesus to nourish our spirits and strengthen us against sin and decrease our concupiscence.
The sacrament of Penance allows us to receive grace to cleanse us from sin after Baptism.

As Catholics we do not consider it a one time
Imputation, but rather a continuous infusion of
grace, and that takes cooperation, a striving for the prize.

The Christian walk is a spiritual battle, as Paul says fight the good fight. The path is hard as Jesus says narrow is the way, straight is the gate that leads to life.

We know we are on the right path by four signs. Distrust of self (we cannot do it on our own, and if we try we will go the wrong way)

Confidence in God (God promises us that He will cleanse us, if we ask Him to do it. Ask and you shall receive, knock and it shall be opened to you. )

Right use of the faculties of mind and body (study the faith and discipline our bodies. Take up your cross and follow Jesus)

The duty of prayer ( if we don’t pray, we don’t talk to God. If we don’t talk to God, we receive nothing because we don’t ask)

narnia59 · Oct 19, 2021

Matthew 23:25-27 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for you cleanse the outside of the cup and of the plate, but inside they are full of extortion and rapacity. You blind Pharisee! first cleanse the inside of the cup and of the plate, that the outside also may be clean."

Imputed righteousness that does not result in sanctification is not impressive to Christ.

Thatgirloncfforums · Oct 19, 2021

This is true. But since this is the RC board, I just wanted to see if they believed in imputation. We all believe in infused.

narnia59 said:
Matthew 23:25-27 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for you cleanse the outside of the cup and of the plate, but inside they are full of extortion and rapacity. You blind Pharisee! first cleanse the inside of the cup and of the plate, that the outside also may be clean."

Imputed righteousness that does not result in sanctification is not impressive to Christ.

chevyontheriver · Oct 19, 2021

Thatgirloncfforums said:
What if the declaration is creative making us righteous, in the same way that God's word brought forth Creation?

That would not be the Lutheran view as I understand it. But that's the point. The imputation has to be related to the actuality. That's why the OT condemned so often unjust scales in commerce, which declared a false weight. When you weigh something you must use true scales which declare the actual weight. Otherwise false witness.

Thatgirloncfforums · Oct 19, 2021

That is the Lutheran view. I know, everyone thinks we believe in a legal fiction. This analogy is a favorite of my Pastor. 'Creative' is his word.

'Thy strong word bespeaks us righteous, bright with thine only holiness. Glorious now, we press toward glory, with our lives our hope confess' -Lutheran hymn.

chevyontheriver said:
That would not be the Lutheran view as I understand it. But that's the point. The imputation has to be related to the actuality. That's why the OT condemned so often unjust scales in commerce, which declared a false weight. When you weigh something you must use true scales which declare the actual weight. Otherwise false witness.

chevyontheriver · Oct 19, 2021

Thatgirloncfforums said:
That is the Lutheran view.

Not convinced.

But then the Catholic view keeps popping up among Protestants who read the Bible but don't know their confessional theological positions very well. I see that a lot with Bible readers who aren't very well trained in their denominational teachings. They end up sounding almost like chapter six of the council of Trent.

Thatgirloncfforums · Oct 19, 2021

chevyontheriver said:
Not convinced.

But then the Catholic view keeps popping up among Protestants who read the Bible but don't know their confessional theological positions very well. I see that a lot with Bible readers who aren't very well trained in their denominational teachings. They end up sounding almost like chapter six of the council of Trent.

Interesting

RileyG · Oct 19, 2021

Michie said:
Roman Catholic view-
"The Catholic idea maintains that the formal cause of justification does not consist in an exterior imputation of the justice of Christ, but in a real, interior sanctification effected by grace, which abounds in the soul and makes it permanently holy before God.

Righteous, or ‘Reckoned’?

What Justifies a Christian?

This. We must cooperate with the grace of God.

AFAIK Luther basically believed the human person was a dungheap. Christ's righteousness "covered" up a person's sin and they "snuck" into heaven (I am not referring to specifically Lutheran theology today). Where as Catholics believe, when we cooperate with the grace of God, we actually become cleansed and holy. Someone can correct me if I'm wrong

Thatgirloncfforums · Oct 19, 2021

Catholics are (officially), just as monergistic as Lutherans. No one can merit the beginning of justification.

RileyG said:
This. We must cooperate with the grace of God.

AFAIK Luther basically believed the human person was a dungheap. Christ's righteousness "covered" up a person's sin and they "snuck" into heaven (I am not referring to specifically Lutheran theology today). Where as Catholics believe, when we cooperate with the grace of God, we actually become cleansed and holy. Someone can correct me if I'm wrong

Thatgirloncfforums · Oct 19, 2021

Catechism of the Catholic Church - PART 3 SECTION 1 CHAPTER 3 ARTICLE 2

Thatgirloncfforums said:
Catholics are (officially), just as monergistic as Lutherans. No one can merit the beginning of justification.

chevyontheriver · Oct 19, 2021

RileyG said:
This. We must cooperate with the grace of God.

AFAIK Luther basically believed the human person was a dungheap. Christ's righteousness "covered" up a person's sin and they "snuck" into heaven (I am not referring to specifically Lutheran theology today). Where as Catholics believe, when we cooperate with the grace of God, we actually become cleansed and holy. Someone can correct me if I'm wrong

We do have to 'co'-operate with God's grace it's true. But it is not a 50-50 sort of thing. God gives us the grace to even be able to begin to cooperate. It's all grace, with us basically saying as Mary said, 'Let it be done to me'. We are cleansed and made holy, but we didn't do a bit of the heavy lifting ourselves. We are no longer a dungheap and definitely not a dungheap covered in snow to look all pretty. We become cleansed and holy. If we soil ourselves we have access to sacramental confession and absolution, by the same power of Christ that first cleansed us.

RileyG · Oct 19, 2021

chevyontheriver said:
We do have to 'co'-operate with God's grace it's true. But it is not a 50-50 sort of thing. God gives us the grace to even be able to begin to cooperate. It's all grace, with us basically saying as Mary said, 'Let it be done to me'. We are cleansed and made holy, but we didn't do a bit of the heavy lifting ourselves. We are no longer a dungheap and definitely not a dungheap covered in snow to look all pretty. We become cleansed and holy. If we soil ourselves we have access to sacramental confession and absolution, by the same power of Christ that first cleansed us.

Yes. Absolutely. 100%

BTW, The "dungheap" analogy was not referring to Catholic theology, just Luther's personal beliefs (although his writings may be confusing at times). I probably sounded confusing.

Imputation?

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