A man without a church

Albion · Oct 6, 2021

Veloman said:
The churches I most closely align with (as per a basis of doctrine) absolutely require complete banishment of alcohol. These same churches also have a different view of end-time theology than I. Not completely, just somewhat.
How does someone like me get accepted by fellow Christians in a church when no existing congregations will allow someone with my convictions to join? Twenty years of social isolation is hard.

It is possible that there aren't any churches -- or none anywhere near where you live -- that agree with you on all these points.

If that's the case you might find one that doesn't make an issue of it, doesn't require a signed agreement from you, etc. but which allows some latitude. And if you say that you cannot find one, I can only conclude that you have limited yourself to a fairly narrow list of "possibles."

I do note also that while you were explaining the controversy to us, you didn't really go into the "endtime theology" part of it, and whatever that refers to could make some difference.

Veloman · Oct 6, 2021

Albion said:
It is possible that there aren't any churches -- or none anywhere near where you live -- that agree with you on all these points.

If that's the case you might find one that doesn't make an issue of it, doesn't require a signed agreement from you, etc. but which allows some latitude. And if you say that you cannot find one, I can only conclude that you have limited yourself to a fairly narrow list of "possibles."

I do note also that while you were explaining the controversy to us, you didn't really go into the "endtime theology" part of it, and whatever that refers to could make some difference.

Please refer to post #5 on this thread: I beleive in Christ's second coming, but do not believe in the rapture. I wish you were right about finding a place that doesn't have signed agreements, but no luck yet. I must say that even if I did find one, I still must abide what I feel is sin based on principle. Certain denominations have doctrines I find riddled with error--just saying.

PloverWing · Oct 6, 2021

Veloman said:
This is a good suggestion, and one that I have tried several times. The pastors that I have approached with the simple question you suggest quickly get on the defensive, and imply that I am somehow being divisive, manipulative, or non-conforming...and for the record they have forms you have to sign, too.

Wow. I'm sorry you've had that experience. My denomination (I'm Episcopalian) explicitly allows, and welcomes, questioning and diversity in our beliefs, and I don't think we're unique in that. To me, the freedom to explore questions thoroughly and honestly, and to believe what one genuinely thinks is true, is essential. I've encountered places that require adherence to a detailed statement of faith (in Christian schools more than in churches), and I don't think I could belong to one of those, even if the detailed statement agreed with my beliefs, because I wouldn't be able to agree to the principle of requiring a statement like that.

Albion · Oct 6, 2021

Veloman said:
Please refer to post #5 on this thread: I beleive in Christ's second coming, but do not believe in the rapture.

Many churches believe the same or have taken no position on that matter, which is another reason why I suspect that you haven't cast your net very far.

I wish you were right about finding a place that doesn't have signed agreements, but no luck yet.

and that's another reason.

I must say that even if I did find one, I still must abide what I feel is sin based on principle.

You mean, I take it, that even if they deliberately and openly adopt a hands-off attitude towards some of these controversial issues, for you to become a member means tolerating error because that's what the church in question is doing?

If so, I understand and do not urge you to change your mind about it. But what if it does not have a policy concerning such and such a belief? You have tried non-denominational churches and most of them have very slim statements of belief, leaving all sorts of beliefs undefined. And that's just to mention non-denominational congregations.

chevyontheriver · Oct 6, 2021

Veloman said:
Can't do that now. I've been self employed for too long and enjoy the freedoms that come with it.

Agreed.

Thanks for the encouragement. Lutherans appear to have had a split not too long ago. Most Lutheran congregations around me are accepting of homosexuality as a non-sinful act, and I view homosexuality as sin. I also don't believe that women are to fulfill the role of senior pastor, but rather the roles demonstrated in the Epistles.

There have long been lots of kinds of Lutherans. My mother was part of a tiny Danish Lutheran group that did not tolerate dancing or movies. Actually there are less kinds of Lutherans now than in past generations. Her Lutheran group, by merger after merger is now part of the ELCA, which is crazy liberal. If you want Lutherans of a more traditional bent, look to the Missouri Synod, or even the Wisconsin Synod, or some of the more charismatic Lutherans. Not all Lutherans are the same, and it hasn't been so for a long time. There is a big bifurcation running down the middle of Lutheranism. If you go that way, be aware and pick wisely.

Catholics officially do not accept homosexual acts and do not accept women as priests. Yet there are agitators for that. To put it in the above Lutheran context, some act like they want to turn the Catholic Church into the ELCA while others want to keep the Church more as the Missouri or Wisconsin Synods, ie a more Biblical traditional faith.

spiritfilledjm · Oct 6, 2021

Veloman said:
Hey, folks. I have a dilemma that needs solved, and hope some mature brothers/sisters in Christ can point me in the right direction. I will start by sharing that I accepted Christ at a very young age and have been serving Him for almost 40 years. In 2001, I moved to GA due to a job promotion--I was in my early 20s at the time. Upon moving here, I looked for a church to attend and began new members classes at a local non-denominational church. At the conclusion of the classes, all the participants had to sign a contract that stated that we would abide by the church constitution. The instructor had no problem giving me a copy of the church constitution to review, and sign the contract the following Sunday. I agreed with about 90 percent of it, but 10 percent I had (and still have) strong convictions that part of what was in it was wrong. This conviction of mine made it's way to the pastor, and I was told that I needed to conform or repent. I didn't stay.
This has been my dilemma with every church I have tried to join for the last twenty years. It ultimately ends with the church leadership telling me to either conform & repent, to leave because "a real Christian wouldn't believe what I do", or that I can continue to attend church services but can not participate in church ministry because my belief contradicts church doctrine. The churches that have allowed me to continue attending result in the congregation shunning me for my convictions.
I have not attended church since 2019, have no friends, no relatives in GA, and am being cast out by the brethren on a continual basis. I'll tell y'all--this is hard. This is very hard. By now you're probably wondering what these convictions of mine are, so here you go....
First, let me preface this with saying that I truly believe that being in a state of drunkeness is a sin. I also believe that one Christian should not do something in the presence of another Christian if it causes them to stumble--this includes alcohol. However, I personally don't find it sinful to enjoy a glass of wine with a meal from time to time, nor to enjoy a cold beer on a hot day after a hard day's work. The churches I most closely align with (as per a basis of doctrine) absolutely require complete banishment of alcohol. These same churches also have a different view of end-time theology than I. Not completely, just somewhat.
How does someone like me get accepted by fellow Christians in a church when no existing congregations will allow someone with my convictions to join? Twenty years of social isolation is hard.

To serve in ministry, they absolutely can have requirements for their leaders such as complete abstinence from alcohol. I understand why they would want that and I'm sure you've heard the same verses pop up (such as staying above reproach). I also know that the Bible doesn't outright forbid alcohol but still, they can have that requirement if they wish just like an employer may have a requirement for how people conduct themselves outside of work that could negatively effect the public perception of the company based on the actions of the employee. However, that should not prevent one from becoming a member...nor should one's view on eschatology. Eschatology shouldn't even prevent one from serving.

I'm sorry you're having such a hard time finding a church home. I would just keep at it though and continue visiting churches in the area. I really have no advice other than that.

2PhiloVoid · Oct 6, 2021

Veloman said:
Hey, folks. I have a dilemma that needs solved, and hope some mature brothers/sisters in Christ can point me in the right direction. I will start by sharing that I accepted Christ at a very young age and have been serving Him for almost 40 years. In 2001, I moved to GA due to a job promotion--I was in my early 20s at the time. Upon moving here, I looked for a church to attend and began new members classes at a local non-denominational church. At the conclusion of the classes, all the participants had to sign a contract that stated that we would abide by the church constitution. The instructor had no problem giving me a copy of the church constitution to review, and sign the contract the following Sunday. I agreed with about 90 percent of it, but 10 percent I had (and still have) strong convictions that part of what was in it was wrong. This conviction of mine made it's way to the pastor, and I was told that I needed to conform or repent. I didn't stay.
This has been my dilemma with every church I have tried to join for the last twenty years. It ultimately ends with the church leadership telling me to either conform & repent, to leave because "a real Christian wouldn't believe what I do", or that I can continue to attend church services but can not participate in church ministry because my belief contradicts church doctrine. The churches that have allowed me to continue attending result in the congregation shunning me for my convictions.
I have not attended church since 2019, have no friends, no relatives in GA, and am being cast out by the brethren on a continual basis. I'll tell y'all--this is hard. This is very hard. By now you're probably wondering what these convictions of mine are, so here you go....
First, let me preface this with saying that I truly believe that being in a state of drunkeness is a sin. I also believe that one Christian should not do something in the presence of another Christian if it causes them to stumble--this includes alcohol. However, I personally don't find it sinful to enjoy a glass of wine with a meal from time to time, nor to enjoy a cold beer on a hot day after a hard day's work. The churches I most closely align with (as per a basis of doctrine) absolutely require complete banishment of alcohol. These same churches also have a different view of end-time theology than I. Not completely, just somewhat.
How does someone like me get accepted by fellow Christians in a church when no existing congregations will allow someone with my convictions to join? Twenty years of social isolation is hard.

Tell me about it, bro! A lot of Christians think they have to be perfect gate-keepers for their chosen local agendas in their respective churches (all running with programs that are exclusively promoted by the Holy Spirit, OF COURSE!)

I'd say don't worry about it. Find some other Christians similar to yourself; besides, going to a local church is an option, not a mandatory sentence.

BobRyan · Oct 8, 2021

Veloman said:
Hey, folks. I have a dilemma that needs solved, and hope some mature brothers/sisters in Christ can point me in the right direction. I will start by sharing that I accepted Christ at a very young age and have been serving Him for almost 40 years. In 2001, I moved to GA due to a job promotion--I was in my early 20s at the time. Upon moving here, I looked for a church to attend and began new members classes at a local non-denominational church. At the conclusion of the classes, all the participants had to sign a contract that stated that we would abide by the church constitution. The instructor had no problem giving me a copy of the church constitution to review, and sign the contract the following Sunday. I agreed with about 90 percent of it, but 10 percent I had (and still have) strong convictions that part of what was in it was wrong. This conviction of mine made it's way to the pastor, and I was told that I needed to conform or repent. I didn't stay.
This has been my dilemma with every church I have tried to join for the last twenty years. It ultimately ends with the church leadership telling me to either conform & repent, to leave because "a real Christian wouldn't believe what I do", or that I can continue to attend church services but can not participate in church ministry because my belief contradicts church doctrine. The churches that have allowed me to continue attending result in the congregation shunning me for my convictions.
I have not attended church since 2019, have no friends, no relatives in GA, and am being cast out by the brethren on a continual basis. I'll tell y'all--this is hard. This is very hard. By now you're probably wondering what these convictions of mine are, so here you go....
First, let me preface this with saying that I truly believe that being in a state of drunkeness is a sin. I also believe that one Christian should not do something in the presence of another Christian if it causes them to stumble--this includes alcohol. However, I personally don't find it sinful to enjoy a glass of wine with a meal from time to time, nor to enjoy a cold beer on a hot day after a hard day's work. The churches I most closely align with (as per a basis of doctrine) absolutely require complete banishment of alcohol. These same churches also have a different view of end-time theology than I. Not completely, just somewhat.
How does someone like me get accepted by fellow Christians in a church when no existing congregations will allow someone with my convictions to join? Twenty years of social isolation is hard.

I moved to GA a few years after you did - and I agree with you that the sort of church that tells you not to worship with them because you don't agree with every last word of their doctrine is not a very good church.

SkyWriting · Oct 8, 2021

Veloman said:
Hey, folks. I have a dilemma that needs solved, and hope some mature brothers/sisters in Christ can point me in the right direction. I will start by sharing that I accepted Christ at a very young age and have been serving Him for almost 40 years. In 2001, I moved to GA due to a job promotion--I was in my early 20s at the time. Upon moving here, I looked for a church to attend and began new members classes at a local non-denominational church. At the conclusion of the classes, all the participants had to sign a contract that stated that we would abide by the church constitution. The instructor had no problem giving me a copy of the church constitution to review, and sign the contract the following Sunday. I agreed with about 90 percent of it, but 10 percent I had (and still have) strong convictions that part of what was in it was wrong. This conviction of mine made it's way to the pastor, and I was told that I needed to conform or repent. I didn't stay.
This has been my dilemma with every church I have tried to join for the last twenty years. It ultimately ends with the church leadership telling me to either conform & repent, to leave because "a real Christian wouldn't believe what I do", or that I can continue to attend church services but can not participate in church ministry because my belief contradicts church doctrine. The churches that have allowed me to continue attending result in the congregation shunning me for my convictions.
I have not attended church since 2019, have no friends, no relatives in GA, and am being cast out by the brethren on a continual basis. I'll tell y'all--this is hard. This is very hard. By now you're probably wondering what these convictions of mine are, so here you go....
First, let me preface this with saying that I truly believe that being in a state of drunkeness is a sin. I also believe that one Christian should not do something in the presence of another Christian if it causes them to stumble--this includes alcohol. However, I personally don't find it sinful to enjoy a glass of wine with a meal from time to time, nor to enjoy a cold beer on a hot day after a hard day's work. The churches I most closely align with (as per a basis of doctrine) absolutely require complete banishment of alcohol. These same churches also have a different view of end-time theology than I. Not completely, just somewhat.
How does someone like me get accepted by fellow Christians in a church when no existing congregations will allow someone with my convictions to join? Twenty years of social isolation is hard.

You can attend any church you wish without joining. Keep your mouth shut and you'll be fine.

Veloman · Oct 18, 2021

Thank you all for your input. If any new congregations spring up, I will inquire then. For now I will have to continue doing things solo.

aiki · Oct 19, 2021

Veloman said:
At the conclusion of the classes, all the participants had to sign a contract that stated that we would abide by the church constitution. The instructor had no problem giving me a copy of the church constitution to review, and sign the contract the following Sunday. I agreed with about 90 percent of it, but 10 percent I had (and still have) strong convictions that part of what was in it was wrong. This conviction of mine made it's way to the pastor, and I was told that I needed to conform or repent. I didn't stay.

This seems to be an American thing. It is...odd to me that a pastor would call you up on the carpet for not agreeing entirely with the church constitution and demand you accept it wholesale. So long as you don't go about the church sowing antagonism toward the constitution, it should be no problem for you to remain in membership in the church. No two thinking people agree entirely on everything.

Veloman said:
This has been my dilemma with every church I have tried to join for the last twenty years. It ultimately ends with the church leadership telling me to either conform & repent,

Well, the common denominator is you, then, isn't it, not the churches you've tried to join.

Veloman said:
The churches that have allowed me to continue attending result in the congregation shunning me for my convictions.

Again, this is very odd. How do they all know what your convictions are? Do you have to publicly announce them to the congregation? Can you not keep your point(s) of disagreement with the church's Statement of Beliefs to yourself?

Veloman said:
First, let me preface this with saying that I truly believe that being in a state of drunkeness is a sin. I also believe that one Christian should not do something in the presence of another Christian if it causes them to stumble--this includes alcohol. However, I personally don't find it sinful to enjoy a glass of wine with a meal from time to time, nor to enjoy a cold beer on a hot day after a hard day's work. The churches I most closely align with (as per a basis of doctrine) absolutely require complete banishment of alcohol. These same churches also have a different view of end-time theology than I. Not completely, just somewhat.

This seems to me to be something you could have very easily kept to yourself. Certainly, this is not an issue over which you should be constantly dividing from the Body of Believers. I am a teetotaler; never had a drink of alcohol in my life; never will. But my wife has the occasional glass of wine, or, now and then, a cup of honey mead. She knows I don't like it that she drinks alcohol but I know that the Bible doesn't outright forbid consumption of alcohol. So, we give each other room to be persuaded by God on this matter in His time. It is absolutely not a matter over which to argue and divide - unless the consumption of alcohol has led to drunkenness.

Personally, I can find little reason in Scripture for drinking alcohol but a great deal of reason in Scripture for not doing so. While drinking alcohol may not be sin, it is, I am convinced, what Hebrews 12:1 describes as a "weight," adding the totally unnecessary risk of sin (drunkenness) to the believer's "running of the race," and creating a potential for offense and stumbling among fellow believers that a mere preference for alcohol just doesn't justify.

In any case, the occasional, well-controlled consumption of alcohol is not grounds for the dis-fellowshipping of any believer. That goes in both directions, though. The church shouldn't be ejecting you from its ranks for drinking the odd glass of wine or bottle of beer, and you should not be so dedicated to this totally unnecessary practice that you are forsaking the Body in order to maintain it.

Love, brother, is the guiding principle here - a love that is self-sacrificing, that seeks the welfare of the other before one's own (1 John 4:7-11). This is Christ's example to us. Are you willing to sacrifice your drinking for the sake of your spiritual family, many members of whom have a great sensitivity to the consumption of alcohol? If not, I would suggest to you that it isn't godly love that is motivating your unwillingness. In love, Christ shed his blood and gave his life for your sake. But you can't bring yourself to yield up the luxury of alcohol for the sake of your brothers and sisters in Christ? Something's wrong, brother, with your priorities, with your understanding of what it means to love the family of God as He has called you to.

Romans 14:15-21
15 For if because of food your brother is hurt, you are no longer walking according to love. Do not destroy with your food him for whom Christ died.
16 Therefore do not let what is for you a good thing be spoken of as evil;
17 for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit.
18 For he who in this way serves Christ is acceptable to God and approved by men.
19 So then we pursue the things which make for peace and the building up of one another.
20 Do not tear down the work of God for the sake of food. All things indeed are clean, but they are evil for the man who eats and gives offense.
21 It is good not to eat meat or to drink wine, or to do anything by which your brother stumbles.

1 Corinthians 8:12-13
12 And so, by sinning against the brethren and wounding their conscience when it is weak, you sin against Christ.
13 Therefore, if food causes my brother to stumble, I will never eat meat again, so that I will not cause my brother to stumble.

1 Corinthians 10:31-32
31 Whether, then, you eat or drink or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God.
32 Give no offense either to Jews or to Greeks or to the church of God;

Veloman · Oct 19, 2021

aiki said:
This seems to be an American thing. It is...odd to me that a pastor would call you up on the carpet for not agreeing entirely with the church constitution and demand you accept it wholesale. So long as you don't go about the church sowing antagonism toward the constitution, it should be no problem for you to remain in membership in the church. No two thinking people agree entirely on everything.

Well, the common denominator is you, then, isn't it, not the churches you've tried to join.

Again, this is very odd. How do they all know what your convictions are? Do you have to publicly announce them to the congregation? Can you not keep your point(s) of disagreement with the church's Statement of Beliefs to yourself?

This seems to me to be something you could have very easily kept to yourself. Certainly, this is not an issue over which you should be constantly dividing from the Body of Believers. I am a teetotaler; never had a drink of alcohol in my life; never will. But my wife has the occasional glass of wine, or, now and then, a cup of honey mead. She knows I don't like it that she drinks alcohol but I know that the Bible doesn't outright forbid consumption of alcohol. So, we give each other room to be persuaded by God on this matter in His time. It is absolutely not a matter over which to argue and divide - unless the consumption of alcohol has led to drunkenness.

Personally, I can find little reason in Scripture for drinking alcohol but a great deal of reason in Scripture for not doing so. While drinking alcohol may not be sin, it is, I am convinced, what Hebrews 12:1 describes as a "weight," adding the totally unnecessary risk of sin (drunkenness) to the believer's "running of the race," and creating a potential for offense and stumbling among fellow believers that a mere preference for alcohol just doesn't justify.

In any case, the occasional, well-controlled consumption of alcohol is not grounds for the dis-fellowshipping of any believer. That goes in both directions, though. The church shouldn't be ejecting you from its ranks for drinking the odd glass of wine or bottle of beer, and you should not be so dedicated to this totally unnecessary practice that you are forsaking the Body in order to maintain it.

Love, brother, is the guiding principle here - a love that is self-sacrificing, that seeks the welfare of the other before one's own (1 John 4:7-11). This is Christ's example to us. Are you willing to sacrifice your drinking for the sake of your spiritual family, many members of whom have a great sensitivity to the consumption of alcohol? If not, I would suggest to you that it isn't godly love that is motivating your unwillingness. In love, Christ shed his blood and gave his life for your sake. But you can't bring yourself to yield up the luxury of alcohol for the sake of your brothers and sisters in Christ? Something's wrong, brother, with your priorities, with your understanding of what it means to love the family of God as He has called you to.

Romans 14:15-21
15 For if because of food your brother is hurt, you are no longer walking according to love. Do not destroy with your food him for whom Christ died.
16 Therefore do not let what is for you a good thing be spoken of as evil;
17 for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit.
18 For he who in this way serves Christ is acceptable to God and approved by men.
19 So then we pursue the things which make for peace and the building up of one another.
20 Do not tear down the work of God for the sake of food. All things indeed are clean, but they are evil for the man who eats and gives offense.
21 It is good not to eat meat or to drink wine, or to do anything by which your brother stumbles.

1 Corinthians 8:12-13
12 And so, by sinning against the brethren and wounding their conscience when it is weak, you sin against Christ.
13 Therefore, if food causes my brother to stumble, I will never eat meat again, so that I will not cause my brother to stumble.

1 Corinthians 10:31-32
31 Whether, then, you eat or drink or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God.
32 Give no offense either to Jews or to Greeks or to the church of God;

Thanks.

coffee4u · Oct 19, 2021

Veloman said:
Hey, folks. I have a dilemma that needs solved, and hope some mature brothers/sisters in Christ can point me in the right direction. I will start by sharing that I accepted Christ at a very young age and have been serving Him for almost 40 years. In 2001, I moved to GA due to a job promotion--I was in my early 20s at the time. Upon moving here, I looked for a church to attend and began new members classes at a local non-denominational church. At the conclusion of the classes, all the participants had to sign a contract that stated that we would abide by the church constitution. The instructor had no problem giving me a copy of the church constitution to review, and sign the contract the following Sunday. I agreed with about 90 percent of it, but 10 percent I had (and still have) strong convictions that part of what was in it was wrong. This conviction of mine made it's way to the pastor, and I was told that I needed to conform or repent. I didn't stay.
This has been my dilemma with every church I have tried to join for the last twenty years. It ultimately ends with the church leadership telling me to either conform & repent, to leave because "a real Christian wouldn't believe what I do", or that I can continue to attend church services but can not participate in church ministry because my belief contradicts church doctrine. The churches that have allowed me to continue attending result in the congregation shunning me for my convictions.
I have not attended church since 2019, have no friends, no relatives in GA, and am being cast out by the brethren on a continual basis. I'll tell y'all--this is hard. This is very hard. By now you're probably wondering what these convictions of mine are, so here you go....
First, let me preface this with saying that I truly believe that being in a state of drunkeness is a sin. I also believe that one Christian should not do something in the presence of another Christian if it causes them to stumble--this includes alcohol. However, I personally don't find it sinful to enjoy a glass of wine with a meal from time to time, nor to enjoy a cold beer on a hot day after a hard day's work. The churches I most closely align with (as per a basis of doctrine) absolutely require complete banishment of alcohol. These same churches also have a different view of end-time theology than I. Not completely, just somewhat.
How does someone like me get accepted by fellow Christians in a church when no existing congregations will allow someone with my convictions to join? Twenty years of social isolation is hard.

Sorry if I missed it, but can you outline that 10% that you disagreed with and what scripture you use to back it up with? Bit hard to help without knowing that.

Veloman · Oct 19, 2021

coffee4u said:
Sorry if I missed it, but can you outline that 10% that you disagreed with and what scripture you use to back it up with? Bit hard to help without knowing that.

Sure. I personally don't believe in Rapture theology, even though I do believe that Christ is coming back again. The concept of the rapture is an error of man, and one invented only a few hundred years ago. No one prior to the year 1500 ever spoke on even the concept of "the rapture". I also believe don't believe that consuming wine is sin (and PLEASE--NO ALCOHOL VS. NON-ALCOHOL DEBATE HERE. THAT IS FOR A DIFFERENT THREAD. THANK YOU) even though I believe that drunkenness is a sin.
Other things I take issue with are church constitutions that say in order to be a member one has to uphold/support ALL decisions made by the pastor. Anyone with half a brain knows just how dangerous that can be. What if people here in America had to uphold ALL decisions made by The President, or they lose their rights as citizens? I don't support giving 100% support to anyone except God alone.

chevyontheriver · Oct 19, 2021

Veloman said:
Sure. I personally don't believe in Rapture theology, even though I do believe that Christ is coming back again. The concept of the rapture is an error of man, and one invented only a few hundred years ago. No one prior to the year 1500 ever spoke on even the concept of "the rapture".

Agreed. It's a new tradition of men. But tell them that at your own risk.

I also believe don't believe that consuming wine is sin (and PLEASE--NO ALCOHOL VS. NON-ALCOHOL DEBATE HERE. THAT IS FOR A DIFFERENT THREAD. THANK YOU) even though I believe that drunkenness is a sin.

Agreed. No getting drunk.

Other things I take issue with are church constitutions that say in order to be a member one has to uphold/support ALL decisions made by the pastor. Anyone with half a brain knows just how dangerous that can be. What if people here in America had to uphold ALL decisions made by The President, or they lose their rights as citizens? I don't support giving 100% support to anyone except God alone.

Agreed. Every Christian, INCLUDING THE LEADERS, needs to be accountable. Not just the little guys. That is a big problem because we are ALL defective in some way or another. Including the big shots.

The way around your issue in my church is that while we are all supposed to believe the same creeds we are not required to believe every word of leaders. Happily I don't have to do THAT. And while we are not supposed to be flaming heretics either the definition of heresy saves us a lot of grief. To be a heretic you have to be a teacher of falsehood. So if you don't actually teach something you aren't a heretic. You shouldn't be treated like one. We should be tuned in to the truths of the faith but there is room for doubts and questions too.

I think you need to look a bit farther afield. There are groups that teach the faith that aren't making it up as they go, that aren't rulebound, and that don't demand cult-like obedience to their every whim. Have you ever considered Orthodoxy or Catholicism? Both are highly conservative of the old teachings and are mature enough to give you a bit of space.

coffee4u · Oct 19, 2021

Veloman said:
Sure. I personally don't believe in Rapture theology, even though I do believe that Christ is coming back again. The concept of the rapture is an error of man, and one invented only a few hundred years ago. No one prior to the year 1500 ever spoke on even the concept of "the rapture". I also believe don't believe that consuming wine is sin (and PLEASE--NO ALCOHOL VS. NON-ALCOHOL DEBATE HERE. THAT IS FOR A DIFFERENT THREAD. THANK YOU) even though I believe that drunkenness is a sin.
Other things I take issue with are church constitutions that say in order to be a member one has to uphold/support ALL decisions made by the pastor. Anyone with half a brain knows just how dangerous that can be. What if people here in America had to uphold ALL decisions made by The President, or they lose their rights as citizens? I don't support giving 100% support to anyone except God alone.

I've never heard of such a thing.

Generally church constitutions are over things like the deity of Christ and baptism -large important things, something like the apostles creed.

Every church you attended asks you for your view on the rapture, alcohol consumption and to support all decisions by the pastor?

Maybe next question should be what churches are you trying? And maybe you are trying the wrong ones, because that is not normal.

I'm not American but I don't get the feeling that is normal even over there.

Yeah not here to debate alcohol with you, I hold the same view anyway I think most people do. Although I do believe you should be base your beliefs on scripture not just 'this is what I believe'

1 Peter 3:15
15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts, and always be ready to give a defense to everyone who asks you a reason for the hope that is in you, with meekness and fear;
Because if these churches are as bad as you say you should be taking the word with you.

False churches-false anything are more widely accepted when they are 90% truth and 10% lie because it allows the lie to become acceptable to the unaware.
"Did God really say" (Genesis 3)
“We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden, 3 but God did say, ‘You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.’”Nothing has changed. It only takes a small lie to become poison.

You are right not to accept those terms, but don't give up the search. Not that you will find people that you agree 100% with 100% of the time, for we are all fallen humanity; but if you join a church what you disagree with should be small enough to say we shall agree to disagree and not be part of the church's statement of faith.

valerina · Oct 19, 2021

I know that Catholics are ok with drinking ( I grew up in a Catholic area), and I feel that it is possible to find a church for you soon, I am sorry it is taking long for you. I feel it is hard for men these days to find people who are similar to them, being lonely has been hard for me too, but I try to find people and find new communities. I arrived here not so long ago and find Americans are more warm and welcoming if you are from another place, I hope you can find a new place for you and get to forget your loneliness soon.

Veloman · Oct 20, 2021

chevyontheriver said:
Have you ever considered Orthodoxy or Catholicism? Both are highly conservative of the old teachings and are mature enough to give you a bit of space.

Yes, Orthodoxy for sure. Thing is (and I stated this earlier) the two Orthodox parishes closest to where I live are a 90-minute drive one-way. I'm in the suburbs of Atlanta....worst traffic congestion in the nation.

coffee4u said:
Every church you attended asks you for your view on the rapture, alcohol consumption and to support all decisions by the pastor?

Although I do believe you should be base your beliefs on scripture not just 'this is what I believe'

The individuals teaching New Members' classes have a pattern of going around the room and getting people's opinions on every topic taught--a "pick your brain" session, if you will. They don't put people on the spot and flat out ask them. They use passive actions instead. An example would be one of the instructors telling the whole class, "Okay, raise your hand if you believe in the rapture". If I am going to be honest (and avoid the sin of lying), I am going to keep my hand down.
Also, there have been times when I have backed up my beliefs with scripture and verse, but am almost always told in one way or another that my interpretation of said verses is completely wrong. I then take the high road, let them think they "won" their argument, and leave. There is no reasoning with the leadership of these churches. They are mostly non-denominational, some form of baptist, and methodist with a scant few of church of christ, church of god, and presbyterian. They are very rigid in their theologies and all believe that their interpretation of the bible is the "right" one. What a load of huey.
I'm going off on a tangent here, but the most influential turnoff of the Christian faith to unbelievers is hypocrisy along the lines of what I have experienced. I have had numerous customers of mine--all athiests--ask me about why I treat them well (fair prices, honesty, and moral ethics) when everyone else is "just a cheat". Praise God that they can see Christ shining through me to ask me that, but back to the point--I tell them that it's my faith in Jesus Christ and His Holy Spirit living in me. Most don't know what to say at first. They just smile, say, "that's nice", and that's the end....but only till the next time I see them. More than half start sharing experiences that drove them away from Christianity--namely Christians who had an aire of arrogance and demonstrated hypocrisy. Living a life like this ruins our testimony. Let me be clear: We ARE the church. Not the facilities. Not denominations. If Christians worldwide started living like what was expected of them in the days of Paul writing his letters, I am confident the church body would be in a much stronger position.

valerina said:
I know that Catholics are ok with drinking ( I grew up in a Catholic area), and I feel that it is possible to find a church for you soon, I am sorry it is taking long for you. I feel it is hard for men these days to find people who are similar to them, being lonely has been hard for me too, but I try to find people and find new communities. I arrived here not so long ago and find Americans are more warm and welcoming if you are from another place, I hope you can find a new place for you and get to forget your loneliness soon.

Thank you for the kind words.

coffee4u · Oct 21, 2021

Veloman said:
The individuals teaching New Members' classes have a pattern of going around the room and getting people's opinions on every topic taught--a "pick your brain" session, if you will. They don't put people on the spot and flat out ask them. They use passive actions instead. An example would be one of the instructors telling the whole class, "Okay, raise your hand if you believe in the rapture". If I am going to be honest (and avoid the sin of lying), I am going to keep my hand down.

>>"Okay, raise your hand if you believe in the rapture".
That is not what I would call passive. I would call that peer pressure tactics used to gain the response they want. I would be out in a flash.
No church that I have ever attended would add rapture "tick box yes or no" to become a member. Many people, myself included don't even hold a yes/no point of view on that. I am of the belief what happens will happen, but this is not an area I feel called to defend.
Those tactics are definitely not right, no matter a persons doctrine.

Also, there have been times when I have backed up my beliefs with scripture and verse, but am almost always told in one way or another that my interpretation of said verses is completely wrong. I then take the high road, let them think they "won" their argument, and leave. There is no reasoning with the leadership of these churches. They are mostly non-denominational, some form of baptist, and methodist with a scant few of church of christ, church of god, and presbyterian. They are very rigid in their theologies and all believe that their interpretation of the bible is the "right" one. What a load of huey.

It's always possible that some doctrine you hold is indeed wrong just as it is possible that some of their doctrine is wrong. Always good to think and check rather than just react. Until I joined CF I had no idea that a single piece of scripture could have so many views on it.

I'm going off on a tangent here, but the most influential turnoff of the Christian faith to unbelievers is hypocrisy along the lines of what I have experienced. I have had numerous customers of mine--all athiests--ask me about why I treat them well (fair prices, honesty, and moral ethics) when everyone else is "just a cheat". Praise God that they can see Christ shining through me to ask me that, but back to the point--I tell them that it's my faith in Jesus Christ and His Holy Spirit living in me. Most don't know what to say at first. They just smile, say, "that's nice", and that's the end....but only till the next time I see them. More than half start sharing experiences that drove them away from Christianity--namely Christians who had an aire of arrogance and demonstrated hypocrisy. Living a life like this ruins our testimony. Let me be clear: We ARE the church. Not the facilities. Not denominations. If Christians worldwide started living like what was expected of them in the days of Paul writing his letters, I am confident the church body would be in a much stronger position.

Hopefully you left them something to think on. It's a shame, but make no mistake things will get worse not better.
Matthew 24
2 Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13 but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

I hope you find a church you can call home soon.

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