Did Jesus save us from God?
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Nestorius was a crypto-antidicomarian, in that he felt that veneration of the Blessed Virgin Mary as was practiced in the Church of Constantinople, and every other church, was wrong, and thus went against the customs established by his illustrious predecessor St. John Chrysostom, who was exiled and later death-marched by Emperor Theodosius II in 404-407 AD after he publicly rebuked the Empress for purchasing a solid gold toilet, when there were desperately poor and starving people in the city and the larger Empire (this was at the same time the Western Empire was in its death throes, and doubtless refugees from territories conquered by invading Gothic, Frankish, Germanic and other tribes as well as people unable to find employment in the collapsing economies of Rome, Neapolis, Carthage, and the surviving provinces that had yet to fall, and of course, those places closest to the Eastern Empire, like Dacia and Thracia, Sicilia and Libya, and the cities of Brundisium, Ravenna and Messina, were migrating into the Empire. St. Chrysostom had been in hot water before for his criticism of Imperial decadence, but apparently, to the warped mind of Theodosius, revealing that Her Imperial Majesty had purchased a commode of solid gold to the congregation at the Cathedral of Hagia Sophia was the last straw. I don’t fully understand why we don’t commemorate St. Chrysostom as a martyr.
His immediate successor was inconsequential, but then came Nestorius, who I personally greatly dislike.
Firstly, without wishing any offense, because its an obscure subject that very people know anything about, and there is also a lot of misinformation, like the website Nestorian.org which is run by a member of the Assyrian Church of the East who is confused by the historic false accusations of Nestorianism on the part of his church into believing it true, and attempting to make a case for Nestorian Christology and a bunch of other things the Assyrian church doesn’t officially believe. Eccentric Assyrian laity are not a new thing - we also have George Lamsa, who against all evidence, insists the Peshitta was written before the Greek New Testament, when in fact it is a fourth century translation. This phenomenon is due to poor catechesis in the decades between the Genocide in 1915 before the tragic assasination of Catholicos Mar Shimun XXI in 1975 and the installation of his successor Mar Dinkha IV, memory eternal, who died a few years ago. For many centuries, the Church of the East, in violation of its own canon law, had a hereditary Patriarchate, and Shimun XXI became Catholicos-Patriarch when he was around 14 years old. He was extremely intelligent, but his policies were divisive; the ancient canon prohibiting the inheritance of benefices and prohibiting a bishop from appointing his successor, was discovered by an Indian bishop in the Church in the 1950s, who was not well received when he told this to Mar Shimun. Then, in the 1960s, a schism occurred, and the Ancient Church of the East was formed, when Mar Shimun unilaterally changed the calendar from the Julian to the Gregorian. Mar Addai II, who is still alive, became Catholicos-Patriarch of the Ancient Church of the East in 1974, and in the 90s, he and Mar Dinkha IV began the process of reunification, which will probably happen within the decade. Mar Dinkha IV was elected by the Holy Synod, which is what the ancient canon law required, and took steps to improve catechesis, training of priests and so on, and so misguided, poorly catechized Assyrians like the fellow who runs Nestorian.org, and George Lamsa will be a thing of the past.
So, that all being said, in a non-critical but purely helpful spirit, I don’t think you have the Assyrian Christology down quite right because you are trying to represent it with Greek words like hypostasis and physis, rather than Syriac words like qnume. Secondly, every Nicene Christian agrees, or should agree, that Christ is one prospon. To say otherwise is beyond Nestorianism, and takes us into semi-Arian or Adoptionist territory. Thirdly, regarding Assyrian Christology, which was developed not by Nestorius but by Mar Babai the Great in the early 6th century, the Congregation of the Doctrine of Faith under the leadership of Ratzinger, the future Pope Benedict XVI, who is a first rate theologian on a par with the Coptic Pope Shenouda, Metropolitan Kallistos Ware, Metropolitan Hilarion Alfeyev, and Archbishop Dr. Rowan Williams, determined that the Christologies of the Assyrian and Ancient factions of the Church of the East, the Oriental Orthodox, and the Chalcedonian churches, were compatible, and Catholics can receive the sacraments in a parish of the Church of the East if they cannot access a Catholic church.
And indeed, while this is also true of the Oriental Orthodox and Eastern Orthodox, in practice, most Orthodox priests, except a few Syriac Orthodox priests according to rumor, will not communicate Roman Catholics, but the Church of the East will.
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- Nov 26, 2019
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By the way, I can PM you my phone number if ever you want to talk about our areas of mutual interests. My plan includes the US and Canada.
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Nice talk, did you forget this talk..
Proverbs 15:23 A man hath joy by the answer of his mouth: and a word spoken in due season, how good is it!
Isaiah 50:4 The Lord God hath given me the tongue of the learned, that I should know how to speak a word in season to him that is weary: he wakeneth morning by morning, he wakeneth mine ear to hear as the learned.
1 Corinthians 2:2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.
1 Corinthians 1:22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.
2 Timothy 4:2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all long suffering and doctrine.
3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
Proverbs 15:23 A man hath joy by the answer of his mouth: and a word spoken in due season, how good is it!
Isaiah 50:4 The Lord God hath given me the tongue of the learned, that I should know how to speak a word in season to him that is weary: he wakeneth morning by morning, he wakeneth mine ear to hear as the learned.
1 Corinthians 2:2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.
1 Corinthians 1:22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.
2 Timothy 4:2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all long suffering and doctrine.
3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
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No one denies this. Nestorius denied that Christ is one prosopon / parsopa (according to Fr. John Behr). The question is about the hypostasis / qnoma is there any significance in Assyrians claiming that Christ had one and the rest of Christianity saying He had 2 qnome / hypostases?
I guess this answers the question above: it is only semantics and choice of words.
Sure.
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In message #436, I briefly commented on Rom 3:25 and referred you to an article containing 2 videos. You have come to the conclusion that we (that is the author of the article, Metropolitan Kallistos Ware in the video, and myself) don't have an answer that you accept. This is, certainly, your privilege.
I read Lev 16:1-22, again, and cannot find any of your claims. No substitution of death penalty, no appeasement of an angry God, none of the dreams that you apply to the sacrificial system. You've heard these dreams from others (I know they are common in Fundamentalist circles) and you're repeating them. But they are neither in the OT nor in the NT. What is there is an offering of blood / life to cleanse the sanctuary, just like Hebrews explains.
"The Passion on the Cross was Christ our God ransoming us from our own self-destructive harm." The Lord said, "And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself” (Joh 12:32). "That is, in Messiah God was reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them; and He has entrusted the message of reconciliation to us" (2Co 5:19). Why did Christ want to draw all people to Himself? Why was God reconciling the world to Himself? Because "God loved the world this much" (Joh 3:16). God loves @Clare73. He is fond of you. Not because you believe in God and Jesus, but because He made you and you are special in His eyes. He made you beautiful. God loves even His enemies. Unfortunately, some people reject God's love and grace and they experience the wrath of God (Joh 3:36, Rom 5:9).
What a horrible picture of God you have been taught. The Apostle Paul wrote, "Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice" (Eph 4:31). God's wrath is not like people's wrath. God's wrath is loving and redemptive. If you have a son or a daughter who is sinning you don't stop loving them. You give them more and more grace. "Where sin multiplied, grace multiplied even more" (Rom 5:20).
Yes, it is the same in my planet also. But I have been taught to be angry at the sin, not at people who sin.
This is getting long and I have to get ready for church. God bless your day. May you see Christ in everyone you meet.
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Ligurian
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Psalms 1:1-6 2 But his pleasure is in the Law of the Lord; and in His law will he meditate day and night.
Matthew 7:24-27 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of Mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon the rock: 25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon the rock.
James 1:23-25 For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass: 24 For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was. 25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth [therein], he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.
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Ligurian
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Deuteronomy 5:1-22 And Moses called all Israel, and said to them, Hear, Israel, the ordinances and judgments, all that I speak in your ears this day, and ye shall learn them, and observe to do them. 2 The Lord your God made a covenant with you in Choreb. 3 The Lord did not make this covenant with your fathers, but with you: ye are all here alive this day. 4 The Lord spoke to you face to face in the mountain out of the midst of the fire. 5 And I stood between the Lord and you at that time to report to you the words of the Lord, (because ye were afraid before the fire, and ye went not up to the mountain) saying,
6 I am the Lord thy God, who brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. 7 Thou shalt have no other gods before my face. 8 Thou shalt not make to thyself an image, nor likeness of any thing, whatever things are in the heaven above, and whatever are in the earth beneath, and whatever are in the waters under the earth. 9 Thou shalt not bow down to them, nor shalt thou serve them; for I am the Lord thy God, a jealous God, visiting the sins of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generation to them that hate me, 10 and doing mercifully to thousands of them that love Me, and that keep My commandments. 11 Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain, for the Lord thy God will certainly not acquit him that takes His name in vain. 12 Keep the sabbath day to sanctify it, as the Lord thy God commanded thee. 13 Six days thou shalt work, and thou shalt do all thy works; 14 but on the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: thou shalt do in it no work, thou, and thy son, and thy daughter, thy man-servant, and thy maid-servant, thine ox, and thine ass, and all thy cattle, and the stranger that sojourns in the midst of thee; that thy man-servant may rest, and thy maid, and thine ox, as well as thou. 15 And thou shalt remember that thou wast a slave in the land of Egypt, and the Lord thy God brought thee out thence with a mighty hand, and a high arm: therefore the Lord appointed thee to keep the sabbath day and to sanctify it. 16 Honour thy father and thy mother, as the Lord thy God commanded thee; that it may be well with thee, and that thou mayest live long upon the land, which the Lord thy God gives thee. 17 Thou shalt not commit murder. 18 Thou shalt not commit adultery. 19 Thou shalt not steal. 20 Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour. 21 Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour’s wife; thou shalt not covet thy neighbour’s house, nor his field, nor his man-servant, nor his maid, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any beast of his, nor any thing that is thy neighbour’s.
22 These words the Lord spoke to all the assembly of you in the mountain out of the midst of the fire—there was darkness, blackness, storm, a loud voice—and He added no more, and he wrote them on two tables of stone, and He gave them to me.LXX
The Ten Commandments are a Covenant.
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Jesus is my Superhero
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I agree that the Ten Commandments are a covenant, but, they also reveal that God is Love. The Ten Commandments define how to relate to God and neighbor.
Matt. 5:17-20.
17Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets. I have not come to abolish them, but to fulfill them. 18For I tell you truly, until heaven and earth pass away, not a single jot, not a stroke of a pen, will disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.19So then, whoever breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do likewise will be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever practices and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20For I tell you that unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
And Rev. 14:12
12Here is a call for the perseverance of the saints who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.
God isn't going to define Himself as love without also defining what love is.
Matt. 5:17-20.
17Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets. I have not come to abolish them, but to fulfill them. 18For I tell you truly, until heaven and earth pass away, not a single jot, not a stroke of a pen, will disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.19So then, whoever breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do likewise will be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever practices and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20For I tell you that unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
And Rev. 14:12
12Here is a call for the perseverance of the saints who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.
God isn't going to define Himself as love without also defining what love is.
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Clare73
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That makes no sense. . .
The whole Trinity is involved in the sin offering (sacrifice) of Christ:
"The blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God." (Hebrews 9:14)
God is the one who presented him as a sacrifice to himself.
Christ's sacrifice was both penal substitutionary and redemptive/restorative.
Why did the animal, and then Jesus, have to die as a blood sacrifice?
Why do you not answer the question?
Because it would refute your assertion?
Substitution is clearly seen in the Day of Atonement ceremonies for the sins of the people, where it takes two animals to pattern the meaning of blood sacrifice (Leviticus 16:7-8).
The first animal is sacrificed (Leviticus 16:9) showing what is necessary to remove the sin of the people--their death, for which the animal's death is substituted,
and the second animal is then presented live (Leviticus 16:10), where the sins of the people are transferred to it, and substituting as their sin bearer, the animal is released into the wilderness to die in their place (Levitius 16:20-22), clearly demonstrating the animal bears their sin and dies in their stead; i.e, as a substitution
A better acquaintance with the OT sacrificial system and what it patterned regarding the meaning of the NT sacrifice would be most "helpful" here.
Red herring. . .
What do you mean unable to pardon sin? He did pardon sin, didn't he?
And so we're to back to the question you won't answer:
why did the animal, and then Jesus, have to die as a blood sacrifice?
The NT answer is Romans 3:25, which you reject:
Jesus, "whom God set forth to be a propitiation (Gr: hilasterion) through faith in his blood."
Propitiation = what propitiates, appeases and renders favorable; SYN: pacify.
And these unanswered questions are also still on the table:
1) For what, and to whom was the ransom owed which Jesus paid?
2) Why did Jesus have to die as a blood sacrifice? (Romans 3:25)
3) Why did God present him as a sacrifice to himself? (Hebrews 9:14)
4) What is God's penalty for sin?
5) Having agreed that wrath means anger, what is the meaning of the following:
John 3:36 - "Whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for Gods wrath remains on him."
Romans 5:9 - "Since we have not been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God's wrath through him?"
1 Thessalonians 1:10 - ". . .whom he raised from the dead--Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath."
Ephesians 5:6 - "Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things God's wrath comes on those who are disobedient."
Colossians 3:6 - "Because of these, the wrath of God is coming (on those who are disobedient)."
Please address them head on. . .no dodging or equivocation.
Thanks.
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By the way, Assyrians claim he has two qnume, which is not strictly speaking semantically equivalent to a hypostasis (interestingly, hypostasis if translated in a literal way means “understanding” or “substanding” but this is not what the Greeks meant), whereas Chalcedonians and Oriental Orthodox believe He has one hypostasis, in which the human and divine natures are unified (the difference being Chalcedonians say He subsists in two natures, and Oriental Orthodox say He subsists from two natures.
Personally, I don’t think that was worth having a schism over; I am relieved at the reconciliation and limited intercommunion between the Syriac Orthodox and Antiochian Orthodox churches, and also the reconciliation between the churches of, and the close personal cooperation between. the Greek Orthodox Pope of Alexandria, Theodore II, and the Coptic Orthodox Pope of Alexandria, Tawadros II (which amusingly means Theodore II). Of course the two Egyptian Orthodox churches tried to merge in the 19th century, but the khedive, fearing the power of a unified Christian population, vetoed the plan.
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Clare73
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Except, in the Greek, the word wrath (orge, thumos) means anger.
Originally, it was used of any natural impulse, or desire, or disposition, but it came to signify anger, as the strongest of all the passions.
Jesus saves us from God's desire?
What does that mean?
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RobertE-
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But what about:
Rom 2:8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath
which I think could easily say passion. How can you obey anger / wrath? Who can obey / follow passions
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