The Waters Above the Firmament

Dale said:

Power: “How would we know if it rained salt water in the flood or not?”

Actually, there is a simple answer to that. When farmland is flooded with salt water, it destroys the fertility of the soil for the foreseeable future, until rain washes the salt out again. If God flooded the entire world with salt water, there wouldn’t be any usable farmland for generations. Yet Genesis tells us that Noah emerged from the Ark, planted a vineyard and was able to harvest grapes in a reasonable period of time.

Besides, we understand rain to be virtually pure water, except for picking up a few contaminants on the way down. A rain of salt water would be an extraordinary event, and we would expect that to be mentioned.

On the other hand, if God flooded the entire world with fresh water, all the fish in the ocean would die because they can’t live in fresh water. So it doesn’t work out either way. I believe that Noah’s Flood is a parable, a teaching story, so this isn’t a problem for me. It is obviously a story about the kind of obedience that God wants. Noah does the right thing while the rest of the world is going the wrong way.

Click to expand...

Good answer.

Dale said:

You ask me if the Bible teaches evolution. Did the Bible tell us to use penicillin?

Click to expand...

No it doesn't, but it does teach how the world came to be over 6 days.

Exodus 20:11
For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.

So what do you do with these verses? Spiritualize them away with a wave of your hand?

Dale said:

Modern Christians tend to skip over details like the separation of the Waters Above the Firmament from the Waters Below the Firmament. Or if you prefer, the separation of the Waters Above the Sky from the Waters Below the Sky.

Click to expand...

Since He made the stars in that firmament I am not sure sky is the right word there. Space?

There is no doubt what this meant to the ancient Israelites.

Click to expand...

There is actually some doubt.
I, for example doubt that God wrote Genesis mostly based on what people in the time of ancient Israel may have thought. He wrote what happened.

The Waters Above the Sky were the source of rain. It is also likely that they thought the Waters Above the Sky were the source of the blue color of the sky.

Click to expand...

Except that why would that be likely? Says..who?

To me, the separation of the waters above and below seems to be an incomplete explanation. If there was a huge mass of salt water before God separated the waters, it looks like the Waters Above the Sky would be salt water. In that case, it would rain salt water. Obviously that isn’t so. Perhaps God left all the salt in the Waters Below the Sky? If so, Genesis doesn’t say so.

Click to expand...

Or perhaps the waters below brought the salt and other minerals and stuff up when they came up.

Genesis 1:9-10 says that God “gathered” the waters under the sky. In other words, God marked boundaries for the seas. Genesis doesn’t say anything about the ocean having a bottom, so it is possible that the Waters Below and the Waters Above are both intended to be infinite. The Israelites never worried that the Waters Above the Sky would be exhausted, leading to the end of rain.

Click to expand...

God does know that there is a bottom and even that some beings live under it!

Revelation 5:13
And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

The Israelites did not understand the water cycle, that the sun’s warmth causes water in the seas and elsewhere to evaporate. Water vapor then forms clouds, which produce rain, snow and also sleet and hail when conditions are right. As a child, I can remember being puzzled when the water level in a glass of water went down even though no one drank from it. “Water evaporates,” my mother told me.

While these things are well understood today, there were not known in Biblical times.

Click to expand...

People did have glasses or cups of water then, why would no one notice evaporation? There were probably jars with lids for a reason.

We might expect storm clouds to be mentioned in the story of Noah and the Flood. Genesis doesn’t mention clouds before the Flood, but it does mention clouds in connection with the rainbow after the Flood.

Click to expand...

You thought there were clouds in the weather system before the flood? (or clouds needed in bring the water down?)

All streams flow into the sea, yet the sea is never full. To the
place the streams come from, there they return again.
Ecclesiastes 1:7 NIV

The author of Ecclesiastes is amazed that the sea never overflows, despite all of the worlds rivers and creeks emptying into it. He knew nothing of the water cycle.

Click to expand...

Since that would be the wisest man that ever lived up to that time (Solomon) why would we assume he was dim? He did mention where the streams come from (rain, I would assume) is where they return again. Is that not a cycle?

Further evidence that the ancients did not understand the water cycle is found in Job.

[God says,]
“Have you entered the storehouses of the snow or seen the
storehouses of the hail,
which I reserve for times of trouble, for days of war and battle?
Job 38:22-23 NIV

Click to expand...

Hail was used by God against enemies. In Egypt for example. In Gills commentary it says this about it.

"Hast thou entered into the treasures of the snow? or hast thou seen the treasures of the hail?] The vapours raised, and clouds formed in the atmosphere, which is the storehouse of those meteors; and may be called treasures, because hidden in the clouds, and not seen by man until the fall of them; and because they are in the keeping, and at the command and direction of the Lord the proprietor of them; and because rich and enriching, especially snow, which falling keeps the earth warm, and makes it fruitful; and because of the abundance thereof which sometimes falls. Now we are not to imagine that the Lord has stores of these laid up in heaps, in times past for time to come; but that he can and does as easily and as soon produce them when he pleases, as one that has treasures laid up can bring them forth at once."
So that need not be taken to mean that wise men of God of old had no clue about weather cycles. Additionally there are angels in charge of the air, and sea etc, so we know God is in control.

The following link leads to a scholarly article that backs up these points. The Israelites, like other ancient peoples, saw the sky as a solid barrier.

Click to expand...

Scripture talks of stars and how the sun moves through the sky. The idea of the sky being metal or actually solid was probably not what they thought.

power1 said:

Since He made the stars in that firmament I am not sure sky is the right word there. Space?
There is actually some doubt.
I, for example doubt that God wrote Genesis mostly based on what people in the time of ancient Israel may have thought. He wrote what happened.
Except that why would that be likely? Says..who?
Or perhaps the waters below brought the salt and other minerals and stuff up when they came up.


God does know that there is a bottom and even that some beings live under it!

Revelation 5:13
And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

People did have glasses or cups of water then, why would no one notice evaporation? There were probably jars with lids for a reason.


You thought there were clouds in the weather system before the flood? (or clouds needed in bring the water down?)

Since that would be the wisest man that ever lived up to that time (Solomon) why would we assume he was dim? He did mention where the streams come from (rain, I would assume) is where they return again. Is that not a cycle?

Hail was used by God against enemies. In Egypt for example. In Gills commentary it says this about it.

"Hast thou entered into the treasures of the snow? or hast thou seen the treasures of the hail?] The vapours raised, and clouds formed in the atmosphere, which is the storehouse of those meteors; and may be called treasures, because hidden in the clouds, and not seen by man until the fall of them; and because they are in the keeping, and at the command and direction of the Lord the proprietor of them; and because rich and enriching, especially snow, which falling keeps the earth warm, and makes it fruitful; and because of the abundance thereof which sometimes falls. Now we are not to imagine that the Lord has stores of these laid up in heaps, in times past for time to come; but that he can and does as easily and as soon produce them when he pleases, as one that has treasures laid up can bring them forth at once."
So that need not be taken to mean that wise men of God of old had no clue about weather cycles. Additionally there are angels in charge of the air, and sea etc, so we know God is in control.

Click to expand...

Historically, stars were viewed as objects pinned into and to the dome. So when the dome moved, stars as stationary objects moved with the dome.

The reason that it's likely this was believed, is because it is written as such that suggests it is so, and also it aligns with every other writing of every other tribe of that time which believed the same thing.

power1 said:

Scripture talks of stars and how the sun moves through the sky. The idea of the sky being metal or actually solid was probably not what they thought.

Click to expand...

I don't recall any passage in Genesis that suggests such a thing. What passage are you referring to?

I think that saying "probably not" is a testament to how limited ancient Hebrews were in their familiarity and awareness of Creation. The authors of Genesis knew that earth was a sphere, you would think that they would simply had said so. But instead what is described are pillars holding up the earth, language commonly used with regards to the spreading of metal (firmament, aluminum, dome, expanse), Birds flying across the face of the dome (faces are flat), water passing through windows or gates/floodgates of the dome, the dome separating waters from waters and allowing waters from above to pass through it's windows, as if it were solid and holding water back from the land.

All this aside, The ancient isrealites didn't have satellite technology or the Pythagorean theorem, and displayed no evidence that they were aware that the planet is a sphere. And why would we expect them to if they didn't have the technology nor had they traveled to planet to even understand that it was a sphere. And so it should come as no surprise to us that the language in scripture also suggests that they believed that earth was flat.

But even beyond this, as was known earlier, tribes and societies all around the world at this time believe that earth was flat as well. Native Americans had stories of shooting arrows with a bow and hitting the dome, and climbing ladders and ropes up to the dome. Tribes in Australia and Asia and Europe all had these prehistoric views that they could walk to the end of the earth and stick their hand through the edge of the earth into the heavens. Or that they could climb objects to reach the dome and then could open windows and climb through it into the heavens.

So when we look back at Genesis, it all adds up. And again, why would anyone expect ancient Israelites to know that the planet was a sphere anyway? They didn't have airplanes to fly around, they didn't have boats sailing around the planet in circles. They certainly didn't walk in a circle around the planet to see it. They don't have rocket ships to go up to space to look down at it or satellites. Pythagoras and the Pythagorean theorem wasn't invented for another thousand years.

By all accounts, the ancient Israelites were either flat earthers or even if they weren't, they would not have known that the planet was a sphere none the less. And what is written in scripture supports this conclusion, and what is written in writings of other prehistoric societies also affirms this conclusion.

Isaiah 41:10 said:

Historically, stars were viewed as objects pinned into and to the dome. So when the dome moved, stars as stationary objects moved with the dome.

The reason that it's likely this was believed, is because it is written as such that suggests it is so, and also it aligns with every other writing of every other tribe of that time which believed the same thing.

Click to expand...

Never looked that way to me. I doubt Abraham and others saw it anything like that either.

I don't recall any passage in Genesis that suggests such a thing. What passage are you referring to?

Click to expand...

I never said Genesis.
Psalms 19:6
His going forth is from the end of the heaven, and his circuit unto the ends of it: and there is nothing hid from the heat thereof.

I think that saying "probably not" is a testament to how limited ancient Hebrews were in their familiarity and awareness of Creation. The authors of Genesis knew that earth was a sphere, you would think that they would simply had said so. But instead what is described are pillars holding up the earth,

Click to expand...

Why would we doubt that the earth had solid supports in the interior, or that God first made a foundation of some sort, then formed the surface after that? When the earth is burned up, some think that the foundation underneath might still be there and then a new surface created. In any case, no one needs to adopt the little interpretation you seem to have thought was meant or believed.

language commonly used with regards to the spreading of metal (firmament, aluminum, dome, expanse), Birds flying across the face of the dome (faces are flat), water passing through windows or gates/floodgates of the dome, the dome separating waters from waters and allowing waters from above to pass through it's windows, as if it were solid and holding water back from the land.

Click to expand...

'words often used' leaves a lot of room for interpretation.

All this aside, The ancient isrealites didn't have satellite technology or the Pythagorean theorem, and displayed no evidence that they were aware that the planet is a sphere.

Click to expand...

Or not! So why read thoughts into their minds as to what they comprehended?

And why would we expect them to if they didn't have the technology nor had they traveled to planet to even understand that it was a sphere.

Click to expand...

Because the creator spoke to Adam and others! They also probably were smarter than modern men.

And so it should come as no surprise to us that the language in scripture also suggests that they believed that earth was flat.

Click to expand...

It suggests no such silly thing.

But even beyond this, as was known earlier, tribes and societies all around the world at this time believe that earth was flat as well. Native Americans had stories of shooting arrows with a bow and hitting the dome, and climbing ladders and ropes up to the dome. Tribes in Australia and Asia and Europe all had these prehistoric views that they could walk to the end of the earth and stick their hand through the edge of the earth into the heavens. Or that they could climb objects to reach the dome and then could open windows and climb through it into the heavens.

Click to expand...

They realized there was some spiritual element to creation. Stories get lost in time and translation as to what they originally meant. Maybe some were stories for kid's bedtime! How would we know?

By all accounts, the ancient Israelites were either flat earthers or even if they weren't, they would not have known that the planet was a sphere none the less.

Click to expand...

Says who? God was with them! You are projection doubting misconceptions onto their minds.

And what is written in scripture supports this conclusion

Click to expand...

No. Not if one believes and understands it.

, and what is written in writings of other prehistoric societies also affirms this conclusion.

Click to expand...

We can take pagan (term used loosely to describe demon worshippers and unbelievers) stories (picking and choosing what ones support our desired conclusions) in many ways.

power1 said:

Never looked that way to me. I doubt Abraham and others saw it anything like that either.

I never said Genesis.
Psalms 19:6
His going forth is from the end of the heaven, and his circuit unto the ends of it: and there is nothing hid from the heat thereof.

Click to expand...

"Its rising is from one end of the heavens and its circuit to the other end of them; and nothing is hidden from its heat."
Psalms 19:6 LEB
Psalms 19:6 Its rising is from one end of the heavens and its circuit to the other end of them; and nothing is hidden from its heat. | Lexham English Bible (LEB) | Download The Bible App Now

I don't see anything here about the sun passing through anything. I agree that it describes the sun rising. That's about it. Of course if the sun was pinned to the firmament, the sun would rise as the firmament moved.

power1 said:

Why would we doubt that the earth had solid supports in the interior, or that God first made a foundation of some sort, then formed the surface after that? .

Click to expand...

Hm? Our continents float on a molten liquid mantle, and the earth has no pillars, it floats in space.

power1 said:

Because the creator spoke to Adam and others! They also probably were smarter than modern men.

Click to expand...

Nothing in Genesis indicates that the author knew the planet was a sphere. But all of the above noted versus all indicate that they believed it to be flat.

Windows, in which water passes through, in the firmament which separates the waters from the waters, means what it says. It means that there were windows in which water passed through. Windows act as openings in solid objects. The firmament holding water back and windows opening to let it through.

When we read Genesis at face value, this is what it is says. Anything else is just bias manipulation of scripture. Scripture says what it says. Unless you think the windows being referred to were actually black holes or 5 dimensional portals????

power1 said:

We can take pagan (term used loosely to describe demon worshippers and unbelievers) stories (picking and choosing what ones support our desired conclusions) in many ways.

Click to expand...

It's not picking and choosing ancient stories because literally every prehistoric story said the same thing, that earth was flat with a dome over it.

What ancient writings have you ever read that said earth is a globe? There are half a dozen stories of ancient societies that lived alongside the isrealites, the very clearly describe a flat earth with a dome over it that you could stick your body through to see the heavens on the other side.

What do you think the windows of the firmament are? Windows sit in solid objects. They block things like water from getting through to the other side of the solid object. Genesis 7:11.

In the six hundredth year of the life of Noah, in the second month, on the seventeenth day of the month—on that day all the springs of the great deep were split open, and the windows of heaven were opened.
Genesis 7:11 LEB.

And the rain came upon the earth forty days and forty nights.
Genesis 7:12 LEB

And God said, “Let the waters swarm with swarms of living creatures, and let birds fly over the earth across the face of the vaulted dome of heaven."
Genesis 1:20 LEB

Flat things have faces. Solid things have faces.

The firmament divided the waters from the waters. Solid things divide things. Water has weight, it takes something solid to hold water up so that when it's windows open, water can pass through.

Source:
https://faculty.gordon.edu/hu/bi/te...s/Text/Articles-Books/Seely-Firmament-WTJ.pdf

This is all extremely clear. The author of Genesis could not have been more blatant.

Isaiah 41:10 said:

I don't see anything here about the sun passing through anything. I agree that it describes the sun rising. That's about it. Of course if the sun was pinned to the firmament, the sun would rise as the firmament moved.

Click to expand...

Metal working was here since the garden. One would think people knew the heat of the sun would melt metal.

Hm? Our continents float on a molten liquid mantle, and the earth has no pillars, it floats in space.

Click to expand...

The continents are on the crust or surface. What is below is not really known. Certainly not to the degree that you could claim there is no base or support of some sort down there. I would not try to bend the bible to try to conform with your belief of what is down there.

Nothing in Genesis indicates that the author knew the planet was a sphere. But all of the above noted versus all indicate that they believed it to be flat.

Click to expand...

Not one verse in the bible says the world is flat actually.

Windows, in which water passes through, in the firmament which separates the waters from the waters, means what it says.

Click to expand...

The windows were temporary and opened and closed in the year of the flood. There is no 'windows' in creation week. Nothing means what you claim.

It means that there were windows in which water passed through. Windows act as openings in solid objects. The firmament holding water back and windows opening to let it through.

Click to expand...

The universe does not need to operate according to the conceptions of the minds of man. The openings in the sky at the time of the flood were there to transport water from above. Any solid sky nonsense is an invention.

When we read Genesis at face value, this is what it is says. Anything else is just bias manipulation of scripture. Scripture says what it says. Unless you think the windows being referred to were actually black holes or 5 dimensional portals????

Click to expand...

There were no windows in Genesis 1 and 2 where creation is spoken about actually. Calling it bias or manipulation to acknowledge this simple fact is disingenuous.

It's not picking and choosing ancient stories because literally every prehistoric story said the same thing, that earth was flat with a dome over it.

Click to expand...

Says who? You have a list of 'every prehistoric story'? Lots of stories probably do not even mention some flat earth. In fact they stories you think do mention one are probably talking of something else.

What ancient writings have you ever read that said earth is a globe? There are half a dozen stories of ancient societies that lived alongside the isrealites, the very clearly describe a flat earth with a dome over it that you could stick your body through to see the heavens on the other side.

Click to expand...

Context. Show us the story. Is it talking of a spiritual connection to God or something?

What do you think the windows of the firmament are?

Click to expand...

They are not anything now. They only existed for a year or so. No use speculating how God can make a passage through time and space through which water can be transported.

Windows sit in solid objects. They block things like water from getting through to the other side of the solid object. Genesis 7:11.

Click to expand...

Here are a few verses about an opening to heaven.

Luke 3:21
Now when all the people were baptized, it came to pass, that Jesus also being baptized, and praying, the heaven was opened,
Acts 10:11
And saw heaven opened, and a certain vessel descending upon him, as it had been a great sheet knit at the four corners, and let down to the earth:
Revelation 4:1
After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

The only 'solid' objects here were on THIS side of the opening!

power1 said:

The continents are on the crust or surface. What is below is not really known. .

Click to expand...

The continents are the crust, that's why it's called Continental crust. It's not my fault if you aren't aware of plate tectonics.

power1 said:

Not one verse in the bible says the world is flat actually.

Click to expand...

They certainly dont say that it's round. They likely just didn't know either way. The best they could do was see the flat land in front of them and just go with what they saw.

power1 said:

The windows were temporary and opened and closed in the year of the flood. There is no 'windows' in creation week. Nothing means what you claim.

Click to expand...

Temporary? What were they temporary portals that appeared, let water in from another dimension and then disappeared?

Surely you cannot blame me for taking scripture at face value when this is the alternative.

power1 said:

The openings in the sky at the time of the flood were there to transport water from above. Any solid sky nonsense is an invention.

Click to expand...

Windows don't transport things. They inhibit movement of things. That's why it's also translated as flood gates. Gates prevent motion by holding things back.

What do you think the waters were being held back by? Do you mean water from outer space?

power1 said:

There were no windows in Genesis 1 and 2 where creation is spoken about actually. Calling it bias or manipulation to acknowledge this simple fact is disingenuous.

Click to expand...

In the six hundredth year of the life of Noah, in the second month, on the seventeenth day of the month—on that day all the springs of the great deep were split open, and the windows of heaven were opened.
Genesis 7:11 LEB

It's right there in Genesis. Same book, same author.

power1 said:

Says who? You have a list of 'every prehistoric story'? Lots of stories probably do not even mention some flat earth. In fact they stories you think do mention one are probably talking of something else.
Context. Show us the story. Is it talking of a spiritual connection to God or something?

Click to expand...

https://faculty.gordon.edu/hu/bi/te...s/Text/Articles-Books/Seely-Firmament-WTJ.pdf

power1 said:

They are not anything now. They only existed for a year or so. No use speculating how God can make a passage through time and space through which water can be transported.

Click to expand...

Haha what? Hahaha. So there were these mystical portals through space and time that just opened up, let water in then disappeared? Hahaha. The lengths people go to stretch scripture is just beyond me. Windows are openings, they aren't wormholes through space-time into other dimensions.

I mean come on. How obvious can it be that such beliefs are just completely misconstruing what scripture plainly says?

I guess there's just some magical ocean in heaven. Right. You say that there's nothing physical about this window and yet obviously it had physical properties if it held back physical water. So then this multi-dimensional wormhole just opens up and then after a year it just vanishes.

Rather than the much more simple explanation that the sky is blue and therefore it was believed that there was water above, hence the firmament separated the waters from the waters. What do you think it means that the waters were separated from the waters?

And the rest of your quotes come from different authors from books written hundreds or even over a thousand years after Genesis.

Isaiah 41:10 said:

The continents are the crust, that's why it's called Continental crust. It's not my fault if you aren't aware of plate tectonics.

Click to expand...

I am aware. The surface includes the crust.

They certainly dont say that it's round. They likely just didn't know either way. The best they could do was see the flat land in front of them and just go with what they saw.

Click to expand...

You are not the decider of what is likely.

Temporary? What were they temporary portals that appeared, let water in from another dimension and then disappeared?

Click to expand...

You do realize the windows opened a certain day and closed a certain day in the time of the flood?

Windows don't transport things. They inhibit movement of things.

Click to expand...

Not open windows God made.

That's why it's also translated as flood gates. Gates prevent motion by holding things back.

Click to expand...

Well once He opened them that was not true any longer now was it?

What do you think the waters were being held back by? Do you mean water from outer space?

Click to expand...

What does it matter? The windows God opened allowed the waters to come to earth.

In the six hundredth year of the life of Noah, in the second month, on the seventeenth day of the month—on that day all the springs of the great deep were split open, and the windows of heaven were opened.
Genesis 7:11 LEB

It's right there in Genesis. Same book, same author.

Click to expand...

Long after creation. That tells of an event that lasted a little over one year. This was many many centuries after creation.

Haha what? Hahaha. So there were these mystical portals through space and time that just opened up, let water in then disappeared?

Click to expand...

That is what the bible says, they opened and later closed. They had a purpose.

Hahaha. The lengths people go to stretch scripture is just beyond me. Windows are openings, they aren't wormholes through space-time into other dimensions.

Click to expand...

No one inspected the windows of heaven when they were open. You are not speaking from a position of knowledge.

I mean come on. How obvious can it be that such beliefs are just completely misconstruing what scripture plainly says?

Click to expand...

We are given the day the windows opened and the time when they closed again. Nothing to misconstrue. Your insulting flat earth dreams are what is fantasy.

I guess there's just some magical ocean in heaven

Click to expand...

? Is it news to you that God made waters and divided them above and below what we call space? (where stars are) Pretty basic stuff.

. Right. You say that there's nothing physical about this window and yet obviously it had physical properties if it held back physical water. So then this multi-dimensional wormhole just opens up and then after a year it just vanishes.

Click to expand...

The openings in the verses I posted were to heaven. Sorry if you think (wise men used to think) the earth is flat as well as heaven is physical! In the case of the openings in the flood year, they allowed water to pass. So whether partially physical or all physical, or all spiritual, who knows? The water was physical.

Rather than the much more simple explanation that the sky is blue and therefore it was believed that there was water above, hence the firmament separated the waters from the waters. What do you think it means that the waters were separated from the waters?

Click to expand...

You thought the sky was blue before the flood!? Proof?

power1 said:

I am aware. The surface includes the crust.

What does it matter? The windows God opened allowed the waters to come to earth.

That is what the bible says, they opened and later closed. They had a purpose.

? Is it news to you that God made waters and divided them above and below what we call space? (where stars are) Pretty basic stuff.

You thought the sky was blue before the flood!? Proof?

Click to expand...

Yes, and the crust floats on a liquid mantle. That's why lava comes out of volcanoes. The continents float on the liquid mantle. Planet earth floats in space.

Regarding the separation of the waters from the waters, you think the waters of the heavens are beyond space, and that the firmament referred to, is space?

And I don't recall any scripture saying that these windows appeared out of thin air when the flood began, then disappeared once the flood was over.

The problems is that rather than taking the scripture at face value and just accepting what it says, you're creating a story involving inter dimensional portals that serve as conduits to space oceans.

If you can't see why this is, to be fair, bonkers, then I just can't help you.

And yes, the sky was blue before the flood. What other color would it be? God created light. Shortwaved light is blue wherever there is oxygen for people to breath. Adam is human and surely breathed oxygen, therefore the sky was blue. If Adam didn't breath oxygen but rather breathed some other kind of gas, I suppose the sky may have been another color, but for what reason would I believe such an alternative?

Isaiah 41:10 said:

Yes, and the crust floats on a liquid mantle. That's why lava comes out of volcanoes. The continents float on the liquid mantle. Planet earth floats in space.

Click to expand...

The surface rests on what is under it. Your conception from science as to what that is doesn't matter. Unless you are claiming a hollow earth?

Regarding the separation of the waters from the waters, you think the waters of the heavens are beyond space, and that the firmament referred to, is space?

Click to expand...

I think the operative word there is 'was'. Who can say how much water that was out there came down or went back?

And I don't recall any scripture saying that these windows appeared out of thin air when the flood began, then disappeared once the flood was over.

Click to expand...

I don't see windows there today, do you? I see no mention of them before that either. Why would we call what God does 'out of thin air'? It was in a window of time that is very specific that these opening happened. They opened for the flood and closed at it's end.

The problems is that rather than taking the scripture at face value and just accepting what it says, you're creating a story involving inter dimensional portals that serve as conduits to space oceans.

Click to expand...

I simply pointed out that the windows were not there in creation week, but the year of the flood. Just because God is far above science in ability does not mean we should mock what He did.

And yes, the sky was blue before the flood.

Click to expand...

Prove it. Chapter and verse, or witness?

What other color would it be?

Click to expand...

Hey, I am not the one that hazarded a guess. That would be you.

God created light. Shortwaved light is blue wherever there is oxygen for people to breath.

Click to expand...

Many things can affect the color.
Example:
"Shortwave radiation is the main driver of snow and ice melt in most environments. Incoming solar radiation is absorbed and scattered as it traverses the gauntlet of atmospheric gases and aerosols (suspended particles such as water droplets, ice crystals, and dust). The processes of absorption and scattering depend on the wavelength of the electromagnetic radiation and the size of the obstacle (gas or aerosol)."
link
Do we know that radiation was the same and all gasses etc? Do we even know that the sun was as hot or as distant? Do we know how water all over the planet rising up through the ground would affect the atmosphere or light? Etc.

Adam is human and surely breathed oxygen, therefore the sky was blue.

Click to expand...

Maybe. However the level of oxygen at that time was likely different' (as evidenced by things like air trapped in amber etc) Who is to say what the exact mix was then? We can breath oxygen and yet have a grey day if there are clouds. Who knows about the pre flood days? If there were some sort or partial canopy over the earth back then (not one that was involved in holding flood water, since that probably came from elsewhere) would that affect the color of the sky?!

power1 said:

The surface rests on what is under it. Your conception from science as to what that is doesn't matter. Unless you are claiming a hollow earth?
I think the operative word there is 'was'. Who can say how much water that was out there came down or went back?
I don't see windows there today, do you? I see no mention of them before that either. Why would we call what God does 'out of thin air'? It was in a window of time that is very specific that these opening happened. They opened for the flood and closed at it's end.

I simply pointed out that the windows were not there in creation week, but the year of the flood. Just because God is far above science in ability does not mean we should mock what He did.

P.
Example:
"Shortwave radiation is the main driver of snow and ice melt in most environments. Incoming solar radiation is absorbed and scattered as it traverses the gauntlet of atmospheric gases and aerosols (suspended particles such as water droplets, ice crystals, and dust). The processes of absorption and scattering depend on the wavelength of the electromagnetic radiation and the size of the obstacle (gas or aerosol)."
link
Do we know that radiation was the same and all gasses etc? Do we even know that the sun was as hot or as distant? Do we know how water all over the planet rising up through the ground would affect the atmosphere or light? Etc.

Maybe. However the level of oxygen at that time was likely different' (as evidenced by things like air trapped in amber etc) Who is to say what the exact mix was then? We can breath oxygen and yet have a grey day if there are clouds. Who knows about the pre flood days? If there were some sort or partial canopy over the earth back then (not one that was involved in holding flood water, since that probably came from elsewhere) would that affect the color of the sky?!

Click to expand...

This is just awful.

Water that came through extra dimensional portals from outer space, and potentially just exited, perhaps through the same portals, if not others.

Portals that came and then I suppose just vanished once water had finished passing through them.

And perhaps some suggestions that Adam, a human being, perhaps did not breath oxygen but rather breathed in other gasses or was perhaps just surviving on super high or super low quantities of oxygen that would otherwise kill anything known in today's time.

And the point regarding continents floating is that the land isn't held up by pillars. Unless of course, the much more simple explanation for all of the above were the case, and that the historical writers of Genesis simply weren't aware that earth had a spherical shape (as all other societies of that time also believed).

You would rather stretch your imagination to this vast extent, than simply accept that the ancient writers of Genesis didn't know the planet was a sphere and believed what everyone else believed, that there was a dome over a flat earth.

Even if the dome wasn't made of metal, it aligns perfectly with every passage of Genesis.

1 Samuel 2:8 + job 9:6
Genesis 1:6
Genesis 7:11
Genesis 1:20

The birds fly across the face of the dome, because it's flat. Simple.

The windows open, releasing water, again because the dome is flat, holding water back.

No need to invoke bizarre ideas about strange cases in the atmosphere and Adam breathing and surviving on sulfuric acid. No. The sky was simply blue.

The dome separates the waters from the waters. No need for water to come from extra dimensions. It's right there above you in the blue sky.

Simple.

And it all aligns with what all other cultures believed that that same time in history.

Isaiah 41:10 said:

This is just awful.

Water that came through extra dimensional portals from outer space, and potentially just exited, perhaps through the same portals, if not others.

Click to expand...

I know of no others, do you? The bible doesn't either. Do you have something against God doing stuff in ways higher than man?

Portals that came and then I suppose just vanished once water had finished passing through them.

Click to expand...

Since no one has seen them since one assumes that after God closed them they were not here or visible any more.

And perhaps some suggestions that Adam, a human being, perhaps did not breath oxygen but rather breathed in other gasses or was perhaps just surviving on super high or super low quantities of oxygen that would otherwise kill anything known in today's time.

Click to expand...

What was actually suggested is that we do not know that the amount of oxygen in the atmosphere was identical to today. But for someone trying to pretend God wrote about a flat earth there is no surprise there.

And the point regarding continents floating is that the land isn't held up by pillars.

Click to expand...

Not concrete pillars or marble if that was what was in your mind. They are apparently held up by something though, because here we are.

Unless of course, the much more simple explanation for all of the above were the case, and that the historical writers of Genesis simply weren't aware that earth had a spherical shape (as all other societies of that time also believed).

Click to expand...

That is the moral of your story you are trying to sell, yes. However, I do not assume God is inept or a liar, sorry.

power1 said:

I know of no others, do you? The bible doesn't either. Do you have something against God doing stuff in ways higher than man?
.

Click to expand...

I have something against people imagining extra dimensional portals in the sky when scripture says no such thing.

You've just made up this entirely imaginary story that has no basis in scripture.

Isaiah 41:10 said:

I have something against people imagining extra dimensional portals in the sky when scripture says no such thing.

You've just made up this entirely imaginary story that has no basis in scripture.

Click to expand...

Except that is not true in the least. The windows of heaven are Scripture 101. They opened and closed. They brought water. God said so. Your refusal to believe what is plainly stated is the only issue.

power1 said:

Except that is not true in the least. The windows of heaven are Scripture 101. They opened and closed. They brought water. God said so. Your refusal to believe what is plainly stated is the only issue.

Click to expand...

You're assuming that by windows, scripture is referring to what are essentially extra dimensional wormholes. That's just not what scripture says. It doesn't say anything about water coming from who knows where beyond the galaxy, and yet, that's what you're describing.

You're saying that you didn't just make this whole story up in your imagination, but you have. I agree that the windows, or floodgates opened, but everything beyond that, this idea of divine wormholes transporting water from another unseen dimension or somewhere beyond the stars, it's all just purely made up.

Isaiah 41:10 said:

You're assuming that by windows, scripture is referring to what are essentially extra dimensional wormholes.

Click to expand...

I am assuming God made the stars in the firmament. Above this was water. Below this was water. The opening that existed and were opened by God in the flood brought the water from above. So if you think God used a big plastic straw to pipe in the water, fine. Don't accuse others of doing what you do, make stuff up.

That's just not what scripture says. It doesn't say anything about water coming from who knows where beyond the galaxy, and yet, that's what you're describing.

Click to expand...

It was above. So you could make up someplace the waters came from, or admit we don't know. There is another place some chapters back where it talks about waters above. It is reasonable to assume those waters came down in the flood. But assume whatever you like. There is no other options available as far as the bible goes. You either admit not knowing, or assume that probably the waters God created above were brought down. Do feel free to plead ignorance. Do not feel free to mock His word or make stuff up.

You're saying that you didn't just make this whole story up in your imagination, but you have. I agree that the windows, or floodgates opened, but everything beyond that, this idea of divine wormholes transporting water from another unseen dimension or somewhere beyond the stars, it's all just purely made up.

Click to expand...

There is nothing beyond that. God opened windows up there to bring water from somewhere. Are you suggesting the water was right there in space or the sky above where the windows opened up? Or are you just in disbelief, period?

power1 said:

I am assuming God made the stars in the firmament. Above this was water. Below this was water. The opening that existed and were opened by God in the flood brought the water from above. So if you think God used a big plastic straw to pipe in the water, fine. Don't accuse others of doing what you do, make stuff up.

It was above. So you could make up someplace the waters came from, or admit we don't know. There is another place some chapters back where it talks about waters above. It is reasonable to assume those waters came down in the flood. But assume whatever you like. There is no other options available as far as the bible goes. You either admit not knowing, or assume that probably the waters God created above were brought down. Do feel free to plead ignorance. Do not feel free to mock His word or make stuff up.
There is nothing beyond that. God opened windows up there to bring water from somewhere. Are you suggesting the water was right there in space or the sky above where the windows opened up? Or are you just in disbelief, period?

Click to expand...

The simple answer is that by "in the firmament", the isrealites meant that stars were "in" the dome, much like a thumb tack is "in" a cork board. They were not aware of what stars actually were, and more importantly, they did not understand how far away they were. (again, we can't blame them, they had not yet invented telescopes or trigonometry to gauge distances via the Pythagorean theorem.)

To the naked eye, they are equidistant lights. Moving in synchronization with the rotating planet, they would appear "pinned" in the firmament. As the firmament or expanse that was stretched out, as it rotated, so too did all the stars "in" it. Though now in modern times we know that stars aren't actually "in" anything. But you have to put yourself into their shoes and think about what they saw and how they experienced things before modern technology.

Would this not be a common sense approach as opposed to your radical idea of wormholes of water traveling billions of light years through space?

You really think that water traveling from other dimensions is more likely than the far more simple and straight forward explanation that perhaps the isrealites who had yet to master space travel, might not actually know what stars are?

Turn off all the extra-biblical wormhole miracle thoughts for just a moment and just imagine what it was like 3,000+ years ago in the eyes of the ancient Hebrews. And once you do this, all of Genesis then becomes 100% perfectly clear and fully 100% biblical.


1. How did the firmament separate waters from waters? Because it had limited thickness and stood over the land, but underneath the blue sky which had an appearance of water.

2. How did birds fly across the [flat] face of the firmament? Because the firmament was viewed much like a flat expanded sheet of metal in that it had flat sides (though curved in a bowl shape). This word used for expanse is the same word used for metal that was spread in ancient times. There's a reason isreals anti missile system is called the iron "dome". It's a play on words referring to the Torahs description of the firmament.

3. How could there be windows in the firmament? Windows or gates can be in any flat object.

4. Where did the water above the firmament come from? Not from intergalactic space, but from the blue sky which resembles water which the flat firmament held up and separated.

5. How is it possible for stars to be in the firmament where there are also windows? Does this mean that water was traveling through space worm holes?

NO! Of course not. And scripture doesn't say that. The stars all appeared equidistant and because they all moved together, it looked like they were stuck "in" something. "In" the flat, expanded, stretched thin, firmament.

Its biblical, it's literal, it aligns with everything we know about beliefs of all societies of that time, it doesn't involve any alternative extra-biblical wild miracles like wormholes. It's also simple and rational.

The ancient Hebrews weren't ubergalactic super-brains who knew advanced futuristic wormhole astrophysics. No.

there's no evidence that they were. Not in scripture, not in historical writings. And to say otherwise is just unbiblical and imaginary.

Isaiah 41:10 said:

The simple answer is that by "in the firmament", the isrealites were not aware of what stars actually were.

Click to expand...

Claiming God was a dummy that could not get it right and that people in ancient times were as thick as a brick is not a believing way to look at things actually.

And more importantly, they did not understand how far away they were. (again, we can't blame them, they had not yet invented telescopes or trigonometry to gauge distances via the Pythagorean theorem.)

Click to expand...

What you think you understand and what you think they understood is in your head.

To the naked eye, they are equidistant lights. Moving in synchronization with the rotating planet, they would appear "pinned" in the firmament. As the firmament or expanse that was stretched out, as it rotated, so too did all the stars "in" it. Though now in modern times we know that stars aren't actually "in" anything. But you have to put yourself into their shoes and think about what they saw and how they experienced things before modern technology.

Click to expand...

The stars will all go out one day. All the ideas science has about the created universe are myopic dreams. (as clever as they think they may be)

Would this not be a common sense approach as opposed to your radical idea of wormholes of water traveling billions of light years through space?

Click to expand...

Doubting God knows what He is doing is not a common sense approach, it is a dark alternative based on nothing.

You really think that water traveling from other dimensions is more likely than the far more simple and straight forward explanation that perhaps the isrealites who had yet to master space travel, might not actually know what stars are?

Click to expand...

I think that doubting Scripture for no reason and refusing to admit ignorance of things and times you could not possibly know anything about is an exercise in willing ignorance dressed up as knowledge.

Turn off all the extra-biblical wormhole miracle thoughts for just a moment and just imagine what it was like 3,000+ years ago in the eyes of the ancient Hebrews. And once you do this, all of Genesis then becomes 100% perfectly clear and fully 100% biblical.

Click to expand...

Try to imagine God is real. Try to imagine He talked to us in the days of the fathers. Try to imagine that doubt is from Satan.