Democrats questioned the elections first

Estrid

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1) The Democrats don’t claim to be the party of personal responsibility. Republicans do. Is it really too much to ask for a political party to hold up the standard it proclaims?

2) Republicans deligitimized the 1960 election by claiming it was stolen from them. Particularly Illinois.

3) Maybe the Republicans have been a part of a German plot to take over America since the 1910s. I can make up insane conspiracies as well.

It may be better to fall short of ideals than not to have any
 
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GreatLakes4Ever

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It may be better to fall short of ideals than not to have any

Not if you want any credibility when you are arguing other people should live up to those ideals. And Republicans don’t “fall short of” as “actively don’t believe it based on their actions.” Case in point, this thread. It’s not Republicans fault for deligitimizing elections. It’s the Democrats fault.
 
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pacomascarot

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Im not the one with fake quote from movie actor as a
excuse for a point to make

Fake quote from a movie actor? It is hardly fake! You can watch him say it hundreds of times.

If you wish to make the point that the story is fake, fine, but by doing that you thereby elminate the use of ANY literary reference that is predicated on fiction. Which is very limiting indeed. One of the true joys in life is to understand the truth of the real world through metaphor. Writers don't write in a vacuum but rather take life and reflect it back to us.
 
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pacomascarot

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It may be better to fall short of ideals than not to have any

The GOP has shown us that one need not actually believe in ANYTHING really to force themselves on people. Take the evangelical conservative voters. Presumably they believe God is real but they support candidates that do so many things God would find reprehensible that it makes one wonder how they plan on answering God on the day of judgement.

If a political party DOESN'T constantly hammer home some belief in God as a predicate for their positions this isn't as important.
 
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Oompa Loompa

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And you don't see an issue there in the 2000 election? Interesting.
Other than Gore lost and failed to push an illegal and unconstitutional Florida recount in the Supreme Court which resulted in the "Bush stole the election" argument that still exists today?...No, I don't see any issue.
 
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Oompa Loompa

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1) The Democrats don’t claim to be the party of personal responsibility. Republicans do. Is it really too much to ask for a political party to hold up the standard it proclaims?

2) Republicans deligitimized the 1960 election by claiming it was stolen from them. Particularly Illinois.

3) Maybe the Republicans have been a part of a German plot to take over America since the 1910s. I can make up insane conspiracies as well.
Republicans, just like the vast majority of other politicians, are incapable of personal responsibility. Politics is all about the blame game. If you are the only person willing to accept responsibility, whether in politics or anywhere else, you will ultimately become the scape goat for everyone's mistakes.
 
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Oompa Loompa

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Per a Supreme Court ruling.

As one does.
Yes, per a supreme court ruling, because the recount was in violation of the Florida State constitution and was therefore unconstitutional. Unlike what we saw in 2020 in which Pennsylvania blatantly violated its own state constitution and the Supreme Court never took the time to even look at the case.
 
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pacomascarot

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Yes, per a supreme court ruling, because the recount was in violation of the Florida State constitution and was therefore unconstitutional. Unlike what we saw in 2020 in which Pennsylvania blatantly violated its own state constitution and the Supreme Court never took the time to even look at the case.

Sorry your guy lost.
 
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Estrid

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Not if you want any credibility when you are arguing other people should live up to those ideals. And Republicans don’t “fall short of” as “actively don’t believe it based on their actions.” Case in point, this thread. It’s not Republicans fault for deligitimizing elections. It’s the Democrats fault.

Nobody can meet ideals.

If people want credibility its well not to stereotype "all" on
the actions of some.

Its like politics is where all the bigots went after racism got unstylish.
 
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Estrid

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The GOP has shown us that one need not actually believe in ANYTHING really to force themselves on people. Take the evangelical conservative voters. Presumably they believe God is real but they support candidates that do so many things God would find reprehensible that it makes one wonder how they plan on answering God on the day of judgement.

If a political party DOESN'T constantly hammer home some belief in God as a predicate for their positions this isn't as important.

See my comment on where the bigots have gone to play.
 
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Arcangl86

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Yes, per a supreme court ruling, because the recount was in violation of the Florida State constitution and was therefore unconstitutional. Unlike what we saw in 2020 in which Pennsylvania blatantly violated its own state constitution and the Supreme Court never took the time to even look at the case.
I don't recall the State Constitution being an issue at all with Bush V. Gore.
 
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GreatLakes4Ever

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I sure hope I’m not the only person seeing the irony in the defensive claim that Republicans are not personally responsible for not living up to their claim of being the party of personal responsibility.
 
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DamianWarS

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By design the votes of those in more populous states are worth less.
California 24,600,000 registered voters, 55 electoral votes: 447,272
Wyoming 280,000 registered voters, 3 electoral votes: 93,333
pure popular votes are unfair as well since often people living in the same areas have common values regardless of the population so broadly speaking most from California may not share the same value set as most from Wyoming so then it turns into the game of the highest population controlling the outcome and perhaps rural populations would not get fair representation. The US should abandon the model where the entire state is one way or the other but have smaller divisions to represent each electoral vote allowing the state to be both blue and red at the same time. This allows for a better representation of the popular vote
 
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Desk trauma

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pure popular votes are unfair as well since often people living in the same areas have common values regardless of the population

Freed from the electoral college those values would be represented in the presidential elections results on par with the number of people who hold them and vote based upon them. Why should some peoples votes be amplified and others reduced in value?

California may not share the same value set as most from Wyoming

Neither California nor Wyoming share any set of values, they are geographic areas. The people of those states hold values as individuals and vote based upon them.

so then it turns into the game of the highest population controlling the outcome and perhaps rural populations would not get fair representation.

Low population state voters would have their votes be equal to those of high population states, that would be fair when everyone in the country is voting for the same office.

The senate would remain to check high vs low population state imbalances at the federal level.

The US should abandon the model where the entire state is one way or the other but have smaller divisions to represent each electoral vote allowing the state to be both blue and red at the same time. This allows for a better representation of the popular vote

That would be an improvement but why keep the relic around at all?
 
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LeafByNiggle

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The US should abandon the model where the entire state is one way or the other but have smaller divisions to represent each electoral vote allowing the state to be both blue and red at the same time. This allows for a better representation of the popular vote
That would be an improvement over the winner-take-all model, which is currently followed by every state except for Maine and Nebraska. And if the smaller divisions you mention all contained approximately the same population, the results of a nation-wide election would be nearly the same as popular vote election. That allocation is approximately true already, since congressional seats are allocated by population. But then if you throw in the extra two votes for the two senators from a state, the math is less equal. Small states would still have more say in elections than large states, sometimes by a factor of 3 to 1. That would be the case, for example, with people living in North Dakota vs people living in California. If electors were allocated only on the basis of numbers of congressional representatives, North Dakota would have 1 instead of 3 electors, while California would have 53 instead of 55 electors. Proportionally, this means that the current allocation would changes the weight of California residents very little when compared to population-only allocation. But it triples the weight of North Dakota residents. So no matter how you divide up the electoral votes within a state, small states will still have an outsized say in elections unless electors were allocated only on the basis of numbers of congressional representatives.
 
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stevil

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Democrats questioned the elections first.

Every time a Republican president is elected,
Democrats go on cable news asking to abolish the electoral college.
That puts doubt in the system and that weakens the system.

The electoral college is good for America.
It gives power to all 50 states.
NZ used to have something similar when we were on the First Past the Post system.
We had electorates and seats in parliament were based on who wins an electorate.
We sometimes got a government who actually got less votes than the losing party.

We ditched that system and now our eventual government represents more than 50% of the vote.
In NZ every vote counts equally. That is true democracy.
 
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