How are we saved?

bling said:

How does any of these passages tell you or anyone else how God selects one person and does not select another person since by your description they can be exactly the same and thus God could go either way?

Are you saying God selects the hungry and poor and rejects the proud and rich?

We understand the saints will be cared for by God and the wicked will go to hell, but we all start out wicked, even the saints, so how does God choose who will be a saint?

We know God is the epitome of Love (Love itself), so that means God is the epitome of unselfishness, doing everything for the sake of others and that becomes God’s sake (helping others who are just willing to accept His help) since He would not “force” His Love on anyone (which is not possible and still be Godly type Love).

What do you men by: “Calvinists like all other divided sects of Christianity, are for self seeking people”?

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You state all are wicked. Lets see what is told again..




It is different from the birth, just notice again..



Judges 13:7 But he said unto me, Behold, thou shalt conceive, and bear a son; and now drink no wine nor strong drink, neither eat any unclean thing: for the child shall be a Nazarite to God from the womb to the day of his death.

Jeremiah 1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.
6 Then said I, Ah, Lord God! behold, I cannot speak: for I am a child.
7 But the Lord said unto me, Say not, I am a child: for thou shalt go to all that I shall send thee, and whatsoever I command thee thou shalt speak.
8 Be not afraid of their faces: for I am with thee to deliver thee, saith the Lord.
9 Then the Lord put forth his hand, and touched my mouth. And the Lord said unto me, Behold, I have put my words in thy mouth.
10 See, I have this day set thee over the nations and over the kingdoms, to root out, and to pull down, and to destroy, and to throw down, to build, and to plant.




Luke 1:5 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth.
6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.
7 And they had no child, because that Elisabeth was barren, and they both were now well stricken in years.

Luke 1:13 But the angel said unto him, Fear not, Zacharias: for thy prayer is heard; and thy wife Elisabeth shall bear thee a son, and thou shalt call his name John.
14 And thou shalt have joy and gladness; and many shall rejoice at his birth.
15 For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb.






So we saw that the mother and father of John Baptist were both righteous before God walking in His commandments, and they were chosen to have the child John, who was filled with the Holy Ghost from his mothers womb. ( Jeremiah and all the prophets were also chosen from the womb and sanctified to be prophets.



On top of that and the Judges being chosen by God the same way as we read with Samson, we see God refuses Joseph and chose not Ephraim, but God chose Judah, the mount Zion ( which He loved) and chose David also His servant, and brought David to feed Jacob Gods people.

The Psalm of David speaks how God is the trust from the youth, and by God David was held up from the womb, and the praise then is continually of the Lord..



Psalm 78:67 Moreover he refused the tabernacle of Joseph, and chose not the tribe of Ephraim:
68 But chose the tribe of Judah, the mount Zion which he loved.
69 And he built his sanctuary like high palaces, like the earth which he hath established for ever.
70 He chose David also his servant, and took him from the sheepfolds:
71 From following the ewes great with young he brought him to feed Jacob his people, and Israel his inheritance.
72 So he fed them according to the integrity of his heart; and guided them by the skilfulness of his hands.

Psalm 71:5 For thou art my hope, O Lord God: thou art my trust from my youth.
6 By thee have I been holden up from the womb: thou art he that took me out of my mother's bowels: my praise shall be continually of thee.




At the time of the flood, God declared why He would never flood the world again, because man is only evil in the imaginations of their heart from his youth, also the wicked are estranged from the womb speaking lies..



Genesis 8:21 And the Lord smelled a sweet savour; and the Lord said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done.


Psalm 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.




God does the calling then, even from the womb, or they are estranged from the womb was seen to be the wicked, and from the womb God declares, Jacob He loves, and Esau He hates, as God said to Moses, He will have mercy on whim He will, ( He chooses from the womb we see) and then it is summed up, it is not of anyone that wills, but it is entirely on God who shows that choice of mercy..




Romans 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth
12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

Strong in Him said:

God is love is a Scriptural teaching - I don't get what you are saying.

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1 John 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

prophecy_uk said:

1 John 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

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Sorry, but you're still going to have to explain.

Strong in Him said:

Sorry, but you're still going to have to explain.

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This is a scriptural teaching, about how people do not understand what you are teaching, and how this also is the love of God ( if they do not understand what you are teaching they do not understand the love of God being taught also is confirmed and shown by their questioning)..




Mark 9:37 Whosoever shall receive one of such children in my name, receiveth me: and whosoever shall receive me, receiveth not me, but him that sent me.

1 Corinthians 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.
20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?
21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

1 John 4:4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.
5 They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.
6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.
7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.
8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.

prophecy_uk said:

This is a scriptural teaching, about how people do not understand what you are teaching, and how this also is the love of God ( if they do not understand what you are teaching they do not understand the love of God being taught also is confirmed and shown by their questioning)..

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So are you saying (a question, not an accusation,) that if I don't understand/agree with what you are teaching or the way that you explain things, I don't understand God's love?
Nonsense.

I have been saying that to create all people in your image, know, and teach, that all are sinners and need a Saviour yet decide that only a few should be saved or have access to the Saviour, is not the action of a loving, perfect heavenly Father who IS love. Love is patient, kind, always perseveres, always hopes etc. 1 Corinthians 13:4-7.
This picture of God as a loving, perfect, heavenly Father is Scriptural.

prophecy_uk said:

You state all are wicked. Lets see what is told again..




It is different from the birth, just notice again..

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I am using the word “all” as it is often used in scripture when talking about “all” have fallen short. All sin and so on. I do not believe the unborn, babies and even young children are sinners. The fact they have not sinned means they are in a safe condition and not needing to be saved.

prophecy_uk said:

Judges 13:7 But he said unto me, Behold, thou shalt conceive, and bear a son; and now drink no wine nor strong drink, neither eat any unclean thing: for the child shall be a Nazarite to God from the womb to the day of his death.

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This is the directions given Samson’s mother, but the Lord is not saying: “Samson is destined for heaven”. Samson is not the best example of a God-fearing man, being very carnal at times. Samson did not keep his Nazarite vow all of his life, but did seem to repent at the end of his life.

Everyone of us is born into God provided different situations, but salvation is dependent on our personal choices and not God’s choice prior to our birth.

prophecy_uk said:

Jeremiah 1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.
6 Then said I, Ah, Lord God! behold, I cannot speak: for I am a child.
7 But the Lord said unto me, Say not, I am a child: for thou shalt go to all that I shall send thee, and whatsoever I command thee thou shalt speak.
8 Be not afraid of their faces: for I am with thee to deliver thee, saith the Lord.
9 Then the Lord put forth his hand, and touched my mouth. And the Lord said unto me, Behold, I have put my words in thy mouth.
10 See, I have this day set thee over the nations and over the kingdoms, to root out, and to pull down, and to destroy, and to throw down, to build, and to plant.

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Again, God is not saying “Jeremiah is going to heaven”. Solomon was selected by God while still a small child to do great things, but that does not mean Solomon was automatically heave bound. Solomon did lots of bad stuff also, yet we can hope he repented in the end.

prophecy_uk said:

Luke 1:5 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth.
6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.
7 And they had no child, because that Elisabeth was barren, and they both were now well stricken in years.

Luke 1:13 But the angel said unto him, Fear not, Zacharias: for thy prayer is heard; and thy wife Elisabeth shall bear thee a son, and thou shalt call his name John.
14 And thou shalt have joy and gladness; and many shall rejoice at his birth.
15 For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb.






So we saw that the mother and father of John Baptist were both righteous before God walking in His commandments, and they were chosen to have the child John, who was filled with the Holy Ghost from his mothers womb. ( Jeremiah and all the prophets were also chosen from the womb and sanctified to be prophets.



On top of that and the Judges being chosen by God the same way as we read with Samson, we see God refuses Joseph and chose not Ephraim, but God chose Judah, the mount Zion ( which He loved) and chose David also His servant, and brought David to feed Jacob Gods people.

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Again, God is not saying prior to John the Baptist conception that John is heaven bound, since he can make unrepented mistakes prior to his death.

prophecy_uk said:

The Psalm of David speaks how God is the trust from the youth, and by God David was held up from the womb, and the praise then is continually of the Lord..



Psalm 78:67 Moreover he refused the tabernacle of Joseph, and chose not the tribe of Ephraim:
68 But chose the tribe of Judah, the mount Zion which he loved.
69 And he built his sanctuary like high palaces, like the earth which he hath established for ever.
70 He chose David also his servant, and took him from the sheepfolds:
71 From following the ewes great with young he brought him to feed Jacob his people, and Israel his inheritance.
72 So he fed them according to the integrity of his heart; and guided them by the skilfulness of his hands.

Psalm 71:5 For thou art my hope, O Lord God: thou art my trust from my youth.
6 By thee have I been holden up from the womb: thou art he that took me out of my mother's bowels: my praise shall be continually of thee.




At the time of the flood, God declared why He would never flood the world again, because man is only evil in the imaginations of their heart from his youth, also the wicked are estranged from the womb speaking lies..



Genesis 8:21 And the Lord smelled a sweet savour; and the Lord said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done.


Psalm 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.

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God chose King Saul, but it was Saul’s choice to be disobedient and it appears King Saul was lost in the end.

At birth we can be destined for greet things, but that does not mean we will all do great things since we have a choice.

Pulling select verses out of Ro. 9 takes them out of context. It is not only the context of Ro. 9 but at least the context of 9-11 and the context of all of Romans.

prophecy_uk said:

God does the calling then, even from the womb, or they are estranged from the womb was seen to be the wicked, and from the womb God declares, Jacob He loves, and Esau He hates, as God said to Moses, He will have mercy on whim He will, ( He chooses from the womb we see) and then it is summed up, it is not of anyone that wills, but it is entirely on God who shows that choice of mercy..

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Yes, God called Jacob instead of Esau, but that does not mean Esau went to hell in the end, since it appears he was good to his brother in the end.
God could work with Jacob's disposition, but not with Esau, but that does not mean Esau was lost in the end.

prophecy_uk said:

Romans 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth
12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

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Pulling select verses out of Ro. 9 takes them out of context. It is not only the context of Ro. 9 but at least the context of 9-11 and the context of all of Romans.

Romans 9

Paul uses two teaching methods throughout Romans even secular philosophy classes will use Romans as the best example of these methods. Paul does an excellent job of building one premise on the previous premises to develop his final conclusions. Paul uses an ancient form of rhetoric known as diatribe (imaginary debate) asking questions and most of the time giving a strong “By no means” and then goes on to explain “why not”. Paul’s method goes beyond just a general diatribe and follows closely to the diatribes used in the individual laments in the Psalms and throughout the Old Testament, which the Jewish Christians would have known extensively. These “questions or comments” are given by an “imaginary” student making it more a dialog with the readers (students) and not just a “sermon”.

The main topic repeated extensively in Romans is the division in the Christian house churches in Rome between the Jews and Gentile Christians. You can just look up how many times Jews and gentiles are referred to see this as a huge issue.


The main question (a diatribe question) in Romans 9 Paul addresses is God being fair or just Rms. 9: 14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all!


This will take some explaining, since just prior in Romans 9, Paul went over some history of God’s dealings with the Israelites that sounds very “unjust” like “loving Jacob and hating Esau” before they were born, but remember in all of Paul’s diatribes he begins before, just after or before and just after with strong support for the wrong answer (this makes it more of a debate and giving the opposition the first shot as done in all diatribes).

Some “Christians” do not seem to understand How Paul uses diatribes and think since he just showed God being “unjust” and saying God is “not unjust” that God has a special God definition of “just”, making God “just” by His standard and appearing totally unjust by human standards. God is not a hypocrite and does not redefine what He told us to be true.


Who in Rome would be having a “problem” with God choosing to work with Isaac and Jacob instead of Ishmael and Esau? Would the Jewish Christian have a problem with this or would it be the Gentile Christians?


If God treaded you as privileged and special would you have a problem or would you have a problem if you were treated seemingly as common and others were treated with honor for no apparent reason?


This is the issue and Paul will explain over the rest of Romans 9-11.


Paul is specific with the issue Rms. 9: 19 One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?”


The Jews were created in a special honorable position that would bring forth the Messiah and everyone else was common in comparison (the Gentiles).


How do we know Paul is specifically addressing the Jew/Gentile issue? Rms. 9: 30 What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; 31 but the people of Israel, who pursued the law as the way of righteousness, have not attained their goal. 32 Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone.


Paul is showing from the position of being made “common” vessels by God the Gentiles had an advantage over the Israelites (vessels of honor) that had the Law, since the Law became a stumbling stone to them. They both needed faith to rely on God’s Love to forgive them.


Without going into the details of Romans 9-11 we conclude with this diatribe question: Romans 11: 11 Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. 12 But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their full inclusion bring!


The common vessels (gentiles) and the vessels of honor (Jews) are equal individually in what is really significant when it comes to salvation, so God is not being unjust or unfair with either group.


If there is still a question about who is being addressed in this section of Rms. 9-11, Paul tells us: Rms. 11: 13 I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I take pride in my ministry 14 in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them.

Rm 9:22 What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction?

This verse is not saying all the “vessels” created for a “common purpose” were created for destruction (they were not made from the start by the Potter “clay pigeons”). Everything that leaves the potter’s shop is of great quality. Those vessels for destruction can come from either the common group or the honor group, but God is being patient with them that will eventually be destroyed. The vessels God does develop great wrath against, will be readied for destruction, but how did they become worthy of destruction since they left the potter’s shop with his mark on them? Any vessel (honorable or common) that becomes damaged is not worthy of the potters signature and He would want it destroyed.

To understand this as Common vessels and special vessels look at the same idea using the same Greek words of Paul in 2 Tim 2: 20. There Paul even points out the common can become the honored vessel.

Just because Paul uses a Potter as being God in his analogy and Jerimiah uses a Potter as being God in his analogy, does not mean the analogies are conveying the exact same analogy. Jerimiah is talking about clay on the potter’s wheel being change while still being malleable clay (which fits the changing of Israel), but Paul is talking about two pots (vessels) so they cannot both be Israel, the clay is the same for both and the clay is not changing the outcome of the pot. The two pots (vessels) are completed and a person is asking “Why did you make me like this”, so it is about “how a person is made (born)” and not a nation.

Since Jerimiah talks only about one pot on the wheel changing and Paul is talking about two kinds of completed pots (vessels), who are the two different pots?


Paul is saying in 2 Tim 2: 21 even after leaving the shop the common vessels can cleanse themselves and thus become instruments for a special purpose. So, who is the common vessel and who is the special vessel in this analogy?

That is a short explanation, since you really need to study all of Romans especially chapters 9, 10 and 11. Also please look at individual laments in the Psalms and diatribes in general, I really cut those short.

Neostarwcc said:

We are saved by faith alone, through Christ alone. by the grace of God alone.

Salvation is NOT by works however a truly regenerate person will always have works. If your life is not fruitful or if you do not have the desire to be fruitful than God does not live within you.

Because of salvation is eternally secure does not excuse our commandment to believe in and follow the Bible. We are not saved by hyper grace and God's grace has always from Adam and Eve to the last people on earth been for God's elect.

We are by nature totally depraved from birth until death. It's only by God granting us a new heart that it's even possible to come to God in the first place. God is in control and God will not lose one of the Elect in the end.

This new nature is not forced upon us but Rather allows God's elect to willingly come to Christ in the first place.

All this being said, we should not be thinking about God being unfair (he's not humans have a warped theory of what is fair or not fair."

Rather our salvation should be spent pursuing holiness. Because of God were completely fair we ALL deserve to be punished for our sins against God. Every past one of us. So while God chose some and not others, it should blow your mind. Those who go to hell deserve to go there, I do, you do. But those who God chooses to save (which is a very large number of people google jt) earn God's eternal favor and thanks to Christ's death on the cross its as if he never sinned.

I know what some of you are thinking,, but I don't believe now so I'm forever condemned if this is true. That is a lie straight from Satsn if a person doesn't believe now, it doesn't mean they never will. There are people God converts on their death bed. There are atheists (wave) that God converts. There is nothing preventing nobody outside of the power of God.

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So you may be among the unchosen and not know it. If so you can never be saved. That's not a problem?

Neostarwcc said:

We are saved by faith alone, through Christ alone. by the grace of God alone.

Salvation is NOT by works however a truly regenerate person will always have works. If your life is not fruitful or if you do not have the desire to be fruitful than God does not live within you.

Because of salvation is eternally secure does not excuse our commandment to believe in and follow the Bible. We are not saved by hyper grace and God's grace has always from Adam and Eve to the last people on earth been for God's elect.

We are by nature totally depraved from birth until death. It's only by God granting us a new heart that it's even possible to come to God in the first place. God is in control and God will not lose one of the Elect in the end.

This new nature is not forced upon us but Rather allows God's elect to willingly come to Christ in the first place.

All this being said, we should not be thinking about God being unfair (he's not humans have a warped theory of what is fair or not fair."

Rather our salvation should be spent pursuing holiness. Because of God were completely fair we ALL deserve to be punished for our sins against God. Every past one of us. So while God chose some and not others, it should blow your mind. Those who go to hell deserve to go there, I do, you do. But those who God chooses to save (which is a very large number of people google jt) earn God's eternal favor and thanks to Christ's death on the cross its as if he never sinned.

I know what some of you are thinking,, but I don't believe now so I'm forever condemned if this is true. That is a lie straight from Satsn if a person doesn't believe now, it doesn't mean they never will. There are people God converts on their death bed. There are atheists (wave) that God converts. There is nothing preventing nobody outside of the power of God.

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^ It should be noted that this is Reformed aka Calvinist theology. I'm not saying that to shoot it down, but to specify its origin.

Not directed at anyone in particular. But sometimes someone basically creates their own theology.

And when people tell them they're not making any sense, or what they're saying is unorthodox, or that you simply don't understand what they're trying to say.

They'll respond by telling you that's because you lack discernment, don't have the Holy Spirit, or that you're quenching the Spirit, aren't right with God, too wrapped up in false teaching and so on.