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3 Resurrections

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No, those "kingdoms" weren't REALLY independent. The Romans simply took their time about re-asserting their authority.

During that almost-80-years period launched by the Maccabean victories, the nation of Israel set up its own kings and high priest leaders, didn't it? If they were minting their own currency, and Rome considered them an ally and made treaties of friendship with Israel's leaders to that effect, that was an independent kingdom for Israel operating during that window of time. There are a number of historians on record as saying that Israel lost that independent status under Pompey.

Once Israel was subjugated under tribute to Rome by Pompey's actions in AD 64-63, that independent kingdom was lost. I believe this is the point of history when the "clay" of Israel was blended with the "iron" of the Roman empire in the legs and feet of Daniel's statue.

And the kingdoms of Rev. 17 are EMPIRES. There never was an Israeli empire. All those empires ruled over Israel & Judah, or Judah alone

There are not multiple "kingdoms" as you suppose in Revelation 17. Only one kingdom, the Scarlet Beast, with ten horns that have no crowns, and 7 heads which are "kings', not kingdoms or empires. The "kings" in this Revelation 17 Scarlet Beast are called "kings of the EARTH" in Revelation 17:18. This is different than regular monarchs or emperors of the world. Scripture describes "kings of the EARTH" (tes ges, which is the land of Israel) as being the high priests of the land of Israel, as in Psalms 2:2 and Matthew 17:25. Scripture defines its own terms in this case. We can't use our own dictionary for the term "kings of the earth" if scripture defines them otherwise
 
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robycop3

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First of all, the literacy rate was less than 3% in Israel.

Tacitus (A.D. 115) - Roman historian

"13. Prodigies had occurred, but their expiation by the offering of victims or solemn vows is held to be unlawful by a nation which is the slave of superstition and the enemy of true beliefs. In the sky appeared a vision of armies in conflict, of glittering armour. A sudden lightning flash from the clouds lit up the Temple. The doors of the holy place abruptly opened, a superhuman voice was heard to declare that the gods were leaving it, and in the same instant came the rushing tumult of their departure. Few people placed a sinister interpretation upon this. The majority were convinced that the ancient scriptures of their priests alluded to the present as the very time when the Orient would triumph and from Judaea would go forth men destined to rule the world." (Histories, Book 5, v. 13).

Tacitus was a Roman senator, historian, and was considered one of the greatest Roman historians of his time and described this event. He despised Christianity and was known in his own days to be careful, skeptical, and factual in his works. One of his duties was to supervise foreign religious cults in Rome. His works are used to validate the crucifixion of Christ to historians.

Eusebius Book 3 an excerpt from chapter 5.
But the people of the church in Jerusalem had been commanded by a revelation, vouchsafed to approved men there before the war, to leave the city and to dwell in a certain town of Perea called Pella. And when those that believed in Christ had come thither from Jerusalem, then, as if the royal city of the Jews and the whole land of Judea were entirely destitute of holy men, the judgment of God at length overtook those who had committed such outrages against Christ and his apostles, and totally destroyed that generation of impious men. But the number of calamities which every where fell upon the nation at that time; the extreme misfortunes to which the inhabitants of Judea were especially subjected, the thousands of men, as well as women and children, that perished by the sword, by famine, and by other forms of death innumerable, all these things, as well as the many great sieges which were carried on against the cities of Judea, and the excessive sufferings endured by those that fled to Jerusalem itself, as to a city of perfect safety, and finally the general course of the whole war, as well as its particular occurrences in detail, and how at last the abomination of desolation, proclaimed by the prophets, stood in the very temple of God, so celebrated of old, the temple which was now awaiting its total and final destruction by fire, all these things any one that wishes may find accurately described in the history written by Josephus.
Chapter 7
The Predictions of Christ


It is fitting to add to these accounts the true prediction of our Saviour in which he foretold these very events. His words are as follows: “Woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the Sabbath day; For there shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.” The historian, reckoning the whole number of the slain, says that eleven hundred thousand persons perished by famine and sword, and that the rest of the rioters and robbers, being betrayed by each other after the taking of the city, were slain. But the tallest of the youths and those that were distinguished for beauty were preserved for the triumph. Of the rest of the multitude, those that were over seventeen years of age were sent as prisoners to labor in the works of Egypt, while still more were scattered through the provinces to meet their death in the theaters by the sword and by beasts. Those under seventeen years of age were carried away to be sold as slaves, and of these alone the number reached ninety thousand.

These things took place in this manner in the second year of the reign of Vespasian, in accordance with the prophecies of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, who by divine power saw them beforehand as if they were already present, and wept and mourned according to the statement of the holy evangelists, who give the very words which be uttered, when, as if addressing Jerusalem herself, he said: “If thou hadst known, even thou, in this day, the things which belong unto thy peace! But now they are hid from thine eyes. For the days shall come upon thee, that thine enemies shall cast a rampart about thee, and compass thee round, and keep thee in on every side, and shall lay thee and thy children even with the ground.” And then, as if speaking concerning the people, he says, “For there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people. And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.” And again: “When ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.”

If any one compares the words of our Saviour with the other accounts of the historian concerning the whole war, how can one fail to wonder, and to admit that the foreknowledge and the prophecy of our Saviour were truly divine and marvellously strange. Concerning those calamities, then, that befell the whole Jewish nation after the Saviour’s passion and after the words which the multitude of the Jews uttered, when they begged the release of the robber and murderer, but besought that the Prince of Life should be taken from their midst, it is not necessary to add anything to the account of the historian.
Tacitus didn't write his histories until 105 AD & the parts you cite were largely garnered from Josephus' work of approx. 75 AD. Again, much came from Josephus' imagination.
 
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robycop3

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During that almost-80-years period launched by the Maccabean victories, the nation of Israel set up its own kings and high priest leaders, didn't it? If they were minting their own currency, and Rome considered them an ally and made treaties of friendship with Israel's leaders to that effect, that was an independent kingdom for Israel operating during that window of time. There are a number of historians on record as saying that Israel lost that independent status under Pompey.

Once Israel was subjugated under tribute to Rome by Pompey's actions in AD 64-63, that independent kingdom was lost. I believe this is the point of history when the "clay" of Israel was blended with the "iron" of the Roman empire in the legs and feet of Daniel's statue.



There are not multiple "kingdoms" as you suppose in Revelation 17. Only one kingdom, the Scarlet Beast, with ten horns that have no crowns, and 7 heads which are "kings', not kingdoms or empires. The "kings" in this Revelation 17 Scarlet Beast are called "kings of the EARTH" in Revelation 17:18. This is different than regular monarchs or emperors of the world. Scripture describes "kings of the EARTH" (tes ges, which is the land of Israel) as being the high priests of the land of Israel, as in Psalms 2:2 and Matthew 17:25. Scripture defines its own terms in this case. We can't use our own dictionary for the term "kings of the earth" if scripture defines them otherwise
The "kings" (kingdoms) were Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Persian & Greece. The one that was in place at the time of the Rev was, of course, the Roman empire. The 7th, then future, was the Holy Roman Empire, & the 8th will be made up from nations & peoples that were parts of the 2 Roman empires.
From the time the Babylonians conquered Judah until may, 1948, the Jews were not a sovereign nation. The Syrians & Egyptians nominally ruled Judea after the Maccabees established their rule, but let the Maccabees actually exercise control, until Pompey brought his army & took control. The Maccabees knew better than to fight that large army. Again, they weren't really a sovereign, independent nation at the time, functioning in a way same as one of our own states, pretty well self-governing in everyday life, but subject to a central authority.

And, of course, after their dispersion by Hadrian in 135-136 AD, they were not again close to having their own nation any more until it actually came about in 1948.
That Maccabean time had nothing to do with Rev. 17, as it occurred a while before the Rev was given.
 
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3 Resurrections

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The "kings" (kingdoms) were Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Persian & Greece. The one that was in place at the time of the Rev was, of course, the Roman empire.

You have got a contradiction going on here. The Scarlet Beast was not even in existence at the time John was writing. John said that the Scarlet Beast "IS NOT", yet it was soon "about to rise out of the abyss and go into destruction". None of the Scarlet Beast's ten horns had received their simultaneous power yet as of the time John was writing.

The identity of those "kings" as an integral part of the Scarlet Beast's features cannot possibly apply to the Egyptian, Assyrian, Babylonian, Persian, Greek, and Roman empires. You keep trying to make the word "kings" equal to the word "kingdoms" or "empires". Can't be done. They are different words. Shouldn't be done, either, because that adds something to the prophecy that isn't there. These "kings" were a subset within the single Scarlet Beast's identity as a kingdom. And you have not named what that Scarlet Beast kingdom itself is, which had a fluctuating pattern of existence.

Remember, the disciples asked Christ in Acts 1:6, "Wilt thou at this time RESTORE AGAIN THE KINGDOM TO ISRAEL ?" Meaning Israel had once been a sovereign kingdom (under King Saul to begin with), lost it (to the Babylonians), then had that sovereign kingdom restored (under the Maccabees), then lost it again (under Pompey). The disciples were inquiring if Christ would be restoring Israel once again as a sovereign kingdom at that time. This would not happen until the Zealot rebellion restored the Scarlet Beast kingdom in AD 66, so the disciples didn't need to concern themselves with this subject at the time. God had more important things for them to consider - like the outpouring of the Holy Spirit on them at Pentecost.

That Maccabean time had nothing to do with Rev. 17, as it occurred a while before the Rev was given.

There are quite a few things in Revelation that were presented as past events. The birth and ascension of Christ the man-child; the martyrdom of Antipas; the giving of Satan's seat in Pergamos to the Sea Beast; the ancient history of the Sea Beast itself; the past millennium and the loosing of Satan; etc. That is why John was told in Revelation 1:19 to "write the things that thou HAST SEEN" (past events) "and the things which ARE" (presently taking place), "and the things which are ABOUT TO TAKE PLACE AFTER THESE." (soon to occur in John's time period). Not everything in Revelation was prophetic of the future.
 
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Hammster

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Proof, please?
What will you accept as proof? Do you take this literally?


“But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
— Matthew 24:29
 
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Ed Parenteau

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Tacitus didn't write his histories until 105 AD & the parts you cite were largely garnered from Josephus' work of approx. 75 AD. Again, much came from Josephus' imagination.
Josephus himself is incredulous at the story, but he is hearing it from many. And since Josephus was with the Roman army, all the soldiers were probably talking about it as they came in from battle. As to Tacitus, He was a boy when the war took place and could easily have heard what happened and would would have corroborated the story with military personnel who were there when he wrote his Histories. His telling of it differs from Josephus indicating separate witnesses, otherwise why would he even tell about it in the first place if it wasn't told to him by others who were there?
Here's the way Josephus describes the events: "Besides these, a few days after that feast, on the one and twentieth day of the month Artemisius, [Jyar,] a certain prodigious and incredible phenomenon appeared: I suppose the account of it would seem to be a fable, were it not related by those that saw it, and were not the events that followed it of so considerable a nature as to deserve such signals; for, before sun-setting, chariots and troops of soldiers in their armor were seen running about among the clouds, and surrounding of cities."
 
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robycop3

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You have got a contradiction going on here. The Scarlet Beast was not even in existence at the time John was writing. John said that the Scarlet Beast "IS NOT", yet it was soon "about to rise out of the abyss and go into destruction". None of the Scarlet Beast's ten horns had received their simultaneous power yet as of the time John was writing.
The beast will be the antichrist's kingdom. OF COURSE it didn't exist then, nor has it yet existed. But it WILL. And the RCC didn't exist then, either.

The identity of those "kings" as an integral part of the Scarlet Beast's features cannot possibly apply to the Egyptian, Assyrian, Babylonian, Persian, Greek, and Roman empires. You keep trying to make the word "kings" equal to the word "kingdoms" or "empires". Can't be done. They are different words. Shouldn't be done, either, because that adds something to the prophecy that isn't there. These "kings" were a subset within the single Scarlet Beast's identity as a kingdom. And you have not named what that Scarlet Beast kingdom itself is, which had a fluctuating pattern of existence.
I posted several examples of 'kings' meaning 'kingdoms' according to the context. And Rev. 17 is such an example. there's no way that passage can be fitted to the rulers of Rome, as it had far more than 7 or 8 kings(Caesars, emperors, etc.) Rome was the 6th kingdom, ruling the Jews at the time.

Remember, the disciples asked Christ in Acts 1:6, "Wilt thou at this time RESTORE AGAIN THE KINGDOM TO ISRAEL ?" Meaning Israel had once been a sovereign kingdom (under King Saul to begin with), lost it (to the Babylonians), then had that sovereign kingdom restored (under the Maccabees), then lost it again (under Pompey).
No, the last israeli sovereign state in ancient times was the kingdom of Judah, which fell to the Babs in 586 BC. It was not restored til May, 1948. While the Jews were semi-autonomous after that, til Hadrian expelled them from Judea, they were NOT a sovereign, completely-independent state before that.

The disciples were inquiring if Christ would be restoring Israel once again as a sovereign kingdom at that time. This would not happen until the Zealot rebellion restored the Scarlet Beast kingdom in AD 66, so the disciples didn't need to concern themselves with this subject at the time. God had more important things for them to consider - like the outpouring of the Holy Spirit on them at Pentecost.
No, in AD 66, it was just a rebel encampment, not at all a kingdom. What the Zealots such as Judas wanted was for Jesus to supernaturally throw off the Roman yoke upon the Jews & make them sovereign again. Judas was disappointed when he realized Jesus wasn't gonna do that, so he betrayed Jesus to His enemies.

There are quite a few things in Revelation that were presented as past events. The birth and ascension of Christ the man-child; the martyrdom of Antipas; the giving of Satan's seat in Pergamos to the Sea Beast; the ancient history of the Sea Beast itself; the past millennium and the loosing of Satan; etc. That is why John was told in Revelation 1:19 to "write the things that thou HAST SEEN" (past events) "and the things which ARE" (presently taking place), "and the things which are ABOUT TO TAKE PLACE AFTER THESE." (soon to occur in John's time period). Not everything in Revelation was prophetic of the future.
No, Jesus meant the things He'd shown John in the set of visions. And most of the events in the Rev have NOT yet occurred, You simply CANNOT show them to us from a legitimate work of history. And when they DO occur, they'll be worldwide. God made the Maori same as He did the Jew.
 
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robycop3

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What will you accept as proof? Do you take this literally?


“But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
— Matthew 24:29
OF COURSE it's literal, & will occur immediately after the trib, as Jesus said.
 
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robycop3

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Josephus himself is incredulous at the story, but he is hearing it from many. And since Josephus was with the Roman army, all the soldiers were probably talking about it as they came in from battle. As to Tacitus, He was a boy when the war took place and could easily have heard what happened and would would have corroborated the story with military personnel who were there when he wrote his Histories. His telling of it differs from Josephus indicating separate witnesses, otherwise why would he even tell about it in the first place if it wasn't told to him by others who were there?
Here's the way Josephus describes the events: "Besides these, a few days after that feast, on the one and twentieth day of the month Artemisius, [Jyar,] a certain prodigious and incredible phenomenon appeared: I suppose the account of it would seem to be a fable, were it not related by those that saw it, and were not the events that followed it of so considerable a nature as to deserve such signals; for, before sun-setting, chariots and troops of soldiers in their armor were seen running about among the clouds, and surrounding of cities."
Yes, Josephus wanted to impress Vespasian or Titus. Even though Vespasian made him a member of the Flavius family, he was still a 'stepchild" & coulda lost his head had he crossed the wrong person. especially his patron who'd captured him as a rebel leader.
Have you ever bothered to study the AUTHENTICITY of the oldest known examples of Josephus' work? Seems there were a number of interpolations in them, especially those about the time after Jesus' deathup to then-current times. The oldest-known copies date from them 900s AD. I suggest you thoroughly study their authenticity before you put much trust of his accounts of the Jewish wars after Jesus' death.
 
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robycop3

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Josephus himself is incredulous at the story, but he is hearing it from many. And since Josephus was with the Roman army, all the soldiers were probably talking about it as they came in from battle. As to Tacitus, He was a boy when the war took place and could easily have heard what happened and would would have corroborated the story with military personnel who were there when he wrote his Histories. His telling of it differs from Josephus indicating separate witnesses, otherwise why would he even tell about it in the first place if it wasn't told to him by others who were there?
Here's the way Josephus describes the events: "Besides these, a few days after that feast, on the one and twentieth day of the month Artemisius, [Jyar,] a certain prodigious and incredible phenomenon appeared: I suppose the account of it would seem to be a fable, were it not related by those that saw it, and were not the events that followed it of so considerable a nature as to deserve such signals; for, before sun-setting, chariots and troops of soldiers in their armor were seen running about among the clouds, and surrounding of cities."
As I pointed out to "3 Resurrections", the oldest-known extant copies of Josephus' works are from the 900s AD. Have you bothered to try to check their AUTHENTICITY, or find the differences in his writings & Scripture? OF COURSE the chariots, etc. were a fable.
 
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jgr

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Have you ever bothered to study the AUTHENTICITY of the oldest known examples of Josephus' work?

What is the AUTHENTICITY of dispensational futurism's completely unverifiable presumptions, conjectures, speculations, and imaginations, about the future?

In a choice between these, and the accounts of Josephus which are in significant part completely verifiable, I'll choose the latter.

Every time.

Historical prophetic fulfillment is anathema to dispensational futurism, for it exposes its illusions and delusions. Thus dispensational godfather John Nelson Darby disdainfully declared,

""I do not admit history to be, in any sense, necessary to the understanding of prophecy."
 
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OF COURSE it's literal, & will occur immediately after the trib, as Jesus said.
Do you take that type of language literally in the OT? For instance

For the stars of heaven and their constellations
Will not flash forth their light;
The sun will be dark when it rises
And the moon will not shed its light.
— Isaiah 13:10
 
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robycop3

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What is the AUTHENTICITY of dispensational futurism's completely unverifiable presumptions, conjectures, speculations, and imaginations, about the future?

In a choice between these, and the accounts of Josephus which are in significant part completely verifiable, I'll choose the latter.

Every time.

Historical prophetic fulfillment is anathema to dispensational futurism, for it exposes its illusions and delusions. Thus dispensational godfather John Nelson Darby disdainfully declared,

""I do not admit history to be, in any sense, necessary to the understanding of prophecy."
The prophesied events have either occurred or they haven't. History shows they have NOT. Thus, prets don't care for history.
 
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robycop3

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Do you take that type of language literally in the OT? For instance

For the stars of heaven and their constellations
Will not flash forth their light;
The sun will be dark when it rises
And the moon will not shed its light.
— Isaiah 13:10
They described the events as best they could, as they didn't know the REAL causes of such events.
 
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jgr

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The prophesied events have either occurred or they haven't. History shows they have NOT. Thus, prets don't care for history.

If they don't care for history, why do they continually cite historians?
 
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robycop3

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Do you think that the celestial visitation reported here was a fable?
No, but it was an entirely-different event. As for miracles, I've seen two myself.

In 2000, my wife was involved in a schoolbus accident. She was the monitor on the bus, which did a 360 rollover, slamming her so hard on the ceiling that the impact bent the metal out some 6 inches, then slammed her chest-first onto the back of a seat so hard the seat was broken from its moorings. She was alive but unconscious when medics arrived & had her helicoptered to the hospital. The trauma team found, among numerous mother injuries, both her lungs were punctured, her liver lacerated, & several other organs damaged. They brought me in to say goodbye, not expecting her to live another hour. However, she not only survived, but recovered to about 3/4 of what she'd been before, & is alive & well as can be right now! She has COPD from the lung damage & can't turn her head completely, but otherwise has no ill effects, except her ribs below her breasts are now one solid sheet of bone as they were pulverized & that's how they grew back.

The other miracle was a co-worker went down Code Blue in the steel mill. Another man caught him before he hit his head on the concrete floor. Someone hollered for me, knowing my history as a corpsman & paramedic. I, & 2 others began CPR some 5 minutes after he went down. When the medics arrived, they jumpstarted him twice, but had no heartbeat before they left for the hospital. However, after a 3rd shock, his heart started! He made a 6-week recovery, & returned to work with NO ILL EFFECTS! Those were both miracles! ! (BTW, that man was, & is, a devout Baptist asst. pastor.)
 
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