O.B.N.C.

Ceallaigh · Oct 15, 2021

FreeGrace2 said:
FreeGrace2 said: ↑
That is NOT freegrace theology. That's stupidity. There may be some stupid people who identify as "free grace" but that's not the belief of the majority.

In fact, most are fully aware of God's painful discipline (Heb 12:11) for rebellious believers. And the Bible has many examples of God's discipline. So NO ONE "gets away" with their sin.

Not sure what is meant by "get it just right" followed by Acts 16:31. Paul's answer to the jailer was "just right".

Don't know of him. However, if he initially believed that more was required for salvation than "just believing", then maybe he is right.

I responded in my previous post to what you see as "problems". But I guess I missed any loophole.

Could you clarify, please?

I already described what I see as a loophole:

MMXX said: ↑
That's what the well known free grace teachers I know of have said as well. That if the person doesn't get it just right, they are not saved even if they "believe in the Lord Jesus" per Acts 16:13. I've heard Dr. Hank Lindstrom go on at length about how he wasn't saved for years, even though he believed in the Lord Jesus, basically because he didn't have the free grace view of salvation.

Also I've heard asking Jesus into your heart will result in no salvation. Perhaps there are others as well.

FreeGrace2 · Oct 15, 2021

MMXX said:
I already described what I see as a loophole:

MMXX said: ↑
That's what the well known free grace teachers I know of have said as well. That if the person doesn't get it just right, they are not saved even if they "believe in the Lord Jesus" per Acts 16:13. I've heard Dr. Hank Lindstrom go on at length about how he wasn't saved for years, even though he believed in the Lord Jesus, basically because he didn't have the free grace view of salvation.

Also I've heard asking Jesus into your heart will result in no salvation. Perhaps there are others as well.

I don't see a "loophole" in either example.

And I did address what you said about some FG teachers. I asked what was meant by "get it just right" and then cite Acts 16:31.

Do you think that Paul got it "just right" with the jailer, or did he leave something out?

Regarding "inviting Jesus into your heart", there are unfortunately many phrases that are totally unbiblical.

The one about "inviting/asking jesus into your heart" comes from misunderstanding Rev 3:20. It's a verse about fellowship, not salvation.

Ceallaigh · Oct 15, 2021

FreeGrace2 said:
I don't see a "loophole" in either example.

And I did address what you said about some FG teachers. I asked what was meant by "get it just right" and then cite Acts 16:31.

Do you think that Paul got it "just right" with the jailer, or did he leave something out?

Regarding "inviting Jesus into your heart", there are unfortunately many phrases that are totally unbiblical.

The one about "inviting/asking jesus into your heart" comes from misunderstanding Rev 3:20. It's a verse about fellowship, not salvation.

If believing in Jesus was all there was to it, then I wouldn't be hearing about people going to hell because they thought salvation was synergistic or they used wrong phrases etc according to free grace theologians. I'm pretty sure if I dig deeper I'll find more. Right now I'm exploring a lecture by a free grace teacher titled "Wrong Repentance No Salvation". I'm not saying this throws free grace theology out the window. Just that it raises questions.

Ceallaigh · Oct 15, 2021

fhansen said:
Its not a co-requirement; it’s the requirement. It’s the righteousness that defines ones justice, the justice in justification, which is why the greatest commandments are what they are. It’s the law which God places in our minds and writes on our hearts. We can’t achieve it of the necessary quality and quantity on our own which is why the law cannot justify us; only God can do that work in us, can cause us to love as we should, as He does, beginning as we turn to Him in faith. Faith, IOW, is not a license that frees us from the obligation to be righteous, rather it’s a license that opens the door to that very righteousness. It opens the door to God when He knocks, who forgives and sets us free from sin and replaces it with the virtues which include hope and love in addition to faith. He justifies us.

You started out saying love isn't a co-requirement and then you ended saying hope and love in addition to faith. How does that not make love (and hope) a co-requirement of faith? Jesus talked about having faith the size of a mustard seed being enough. But what about love?

fhansen · Oct 16, 2021

MMXX said:
You started out saying love isn't a co-requirement and then you ended saying hope and love in addition to faith. How does that not make love (and hope) a co-requirement of faith? Jesus talked about having faith the size of a mustard seed being enough. But what about love?

Alright. Yes, the virtues of faith, hope, and love have historically been taught to be the three basic supernatural gifts that our justice or righteousness consist of. Faith and hope, however, are temporary, necessary in this life only and having the primary purpose of bringing us to or orienting us towards love of God. As Augustine put it,
“Without love faith may indeed exist, but avails nothing.”

And Paul in 1 Cor 13,
“…if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.”

Our holiness, justice, righteousness are encompassed by love. Faith has a purpose and is the first right step for man without which we are still in a state of injustice but it does not, by itself, define righteousness for man, as if that’s all God wants from and for us; it simply brings us to the feet of He from whom all goodness and righteousness flow and when we’ve come to the place where we love Him with our whole heart, soul, mind, and strength faith has done its job.

So I said that love is the requirement. It will be the basis of our judgment. But, yes, faith and hope are the means or vehicle to get us there.

prophecy_uk · Oct 16, 2021

Faith as mustard seed is the faith of Christ, as Christ was the least, on a donkey and lowly, who commands the sea and mountains to obey..

Job 9:7 Which commandeth the sun, and it riseth not; and sealeth up the stars.

Mark 4:39 And he arose, and rebuked the wind, and said unto the sea, Peace, be still. And the wind ceased, and there was a great calm.
40 And he said unto them, Why are ye so fearful? how is it that ye have no faith?
41 And they feared exceedingly, and said one to another, What manner of man is this, that even the wind and the sea obey him?

Luke 17:6 And the Lord said, If ye had faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye might say unto this sycamine tree, Be thou plucked up by the root, and be thou planted in the sea; and it should obey you.

You guys do see, it is to have faith, not just described as a grain of mustard seed..

Matthew 21:21 Jesus answered and said unto them, Verily I say unto you, If ye have faith, and doubt not, ye shall not only do this which is done to the fig tree, but also if ye shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; it shall be done.

The little child, the least of all, the grain if faith which is the least, is at the same time the greatest, ( in the Kingdom of Heaven) as it is Christ and THIS IS TO RECEIVE HIM ( to have His faith as a mustard seed)..

Matthew 18:3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.
4 Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.
5 And whoso shall receive one such little child in my name receiveth me.

Luke 9:47 And Jesus, perceiving the thought of their heart, took a child, and set him by him,
48 And said unto them, Whosoever shall receive this child in my name receiveth me: and whosoever shall receive me receiveth him that sent me: for he that is least among you all, the same shall be great.

Matthew 11:29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.

FreeGrace2 · Oct 16, 2021

MMXX said:
If believing in Jesus was all there was to it, then I wouldn't be hearing about people going to hell because they thought salvation was synergistic or they used wrong phrases etc according to free grace theologians. I'm pretty sure if I dig deeper I'll find more.

I still don't see this as a loophole. I see the issue as one of being accurate about what the Bible says about how to be saved. To me, it's just that simple.

If someone hears a gospel about who Jesus is and what He did for mankind on the cross, and also hears that to be saved you have to believe in Him BUT ALSO get circumcised, water baptized, etc/etc/etc, then what EXACTLY is that person really believing in for salvation? What Jesus did PLUS what he must do as well? That's certainly not the gospel.

Right now I'm exploring a lecture by a free grace teacher titled "Wrong Repentance No Salvation". I'm not saying this throws free grace theology out the window. Just that it raises questions.

I'd be interested in what the lecture concludes. It seems the word "repent" has been abused by many, or at least horribly misunderstood.

fhansen · Oct 16, 2021

FreeGrace2 said:
Rom 11:29 says that the gifts of God are irrevocable.

Well, He was speaking of His calling to the Jews in 11:29, and apparently not all Jews will be saved BTW. It's the same problem of isolating and focusing woodenly on one or two verses and ignoring anything that might seem to compete, or that might bring the whole story into balanced focus. Prior to 11:29 Paul says to the believing Gentile audience,
"If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, do not consider yourself to be superior to those other branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble. For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either." Rom 11:17-21

FreeGrace2 said:
The issue is what God DOES to a believer that is permanent.

He doesn’t take the will of man away, the abuse of which caused his death to begin with. Salvation is not a sort of magical one-time event permanently sealed by an act of believing. It's a relationship with God that marks and defines man's justice, his telos, and as with any relationship it can be broken instead of continuously maintained.

FreeGrace2 said:
But what you probably haven't thought of yet is that when the believer dies and enters eternity, he does so WITHOUT his old sin nature. So he sure won't rebel in eternity.

What you apparently don't understand is that fallen man never had a “sin nature” to begin with; he simply forfeited and lost subjugation to his Creator and from then on the law written in his heart was dimmed, obscured, compromised, relativized. He had fallen into an unjust, disordered state as he had become his own "god" for all practical purposes-determining good and evil for himself- that's what denying and disobeying the real God means. And this is why reconciliation with God reverses that scenario, placing man back into subjugation as he beings to truly grasp the reality of God and of His goodness and man’s need for Him. This is fully consummated only as we finally come to love Him with our whole heart, soul, mind, and strength. Then obedience, the obedience Adam couldn't muster in Eden, will flow naturally and freely, of its own accord.

FreeGrace2 said:
What would make you think that I believe otherwise???

Well, what change do you think God makes in His new creations-that they can't possibly compromise they're saved justified status with Him? They still have wills, they can still sin. They're not yet fully committed to Him to the extent that they do sin, to the extent that they don’t place Him first above all else IOW. At the end of the day He’s the judge of how well we’ve done with the gifts, the grace, given. He’s patient and kind-we’re the wildcard.

FreeGrace2 said:
What, exactly, are you trying to say here?

That God uses our experiences in this relatively godless world to help turn us away from man's ways and autonomy from Him as we begin to develop a hunger and thirst for truth and righteousness in a world that often fails to value either-a world where sin/evil have free play IOW. So that when He comes knocking, we may well open the door. It's not grace only, but our choosing to respond to it as well.

FreeGrace2 said:
It seems your theology is rather fluid. And hard to follow.

Primarily because you've bought into a novel and rather shallow, stunted one.

FreeGrace2 said:
But I am interested in your explanation of what a "new creature" means and what it looks like.

A new creation is more than a forgiven individual or a "snow-covered dung-heap" but is a child of God, in communion with Him, lifted from the pit, renewed into His image with the seeds of His righteousness, identified as faith, hope, and, most importantly, love, now implanted into them. But they'll still struggle with sin, being tested, challenged, and, hopefully, refined. This is because our wills are necessarily involved. They can choose to exercise and grow in that righteousness as they "invest" their "talents" or they can compromise it-by living unrighteously, returning to the flesh, rejecting the heavenly gift they've tasted-Heb 6:4-5. Justification and sanctification are seamless parts of the same operation-personal righteousness, not merely an imputed one, being God's work in us:
"Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. The one who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous. The one who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil’s work." 1 John 3:7-8

fhansen · Oct 16, 2021

MMXX said:
What I see with this view. And I've seen it before of course. Is it tends to waver on how much is on man to fulfill. It's goes anywhere from sounding like near sinless perfection is required, to not sounding much more demanding than free grace. As far as love goes, that tends to quantified from high to low as well. In my case since I have autism, love for others doesn't come naturally. But there's people I've known their whole lives who are by nature extremely loving. I've also seen the unsaved demonstrate tremendous love. Some devote their entire lives towards caring for others. In some cases there's unsaved who demonstrate more charity than saved. Yet they're going to hell because they're unbelievers. So that would suggest that belief is a stronger component than works.

Faith is not a stronger component than love-the virtue that produces good works by its nature in any case. But I understand your concern better now-and it’s valid. Should man be obligated to love? Is faith, alone, enough? How “good” do we need to be, or can we be? Is sin now suddenly ok because of Christ-as long as we believe? Is any degree or amount of sin ok, then? Is there no place to draw a line? These weren’t questions in the early church BTW; they knew that there must be positive change in a believer- good fruit-and the only way that can happen is if he now possesses righteousness, a righteousness that is intrinsically connected to his being in communion with God, a union which is to begin here, in this life, but only fully realized or consummated in the next.

But as to how God judges: God is infinitely just, merciful, kind, patient, good: God is love. And He knows every hair on our heads. He knows our capabilities. We’re all different in terms of maturity, intelligence, knowledge, revelation and grace received, backgrounds, experience, etc. And I think the principle in Luke 12:48 applies here, that to whom much is given, much will be required. More is expected of some, less of others. He’ll judge by our hearts, as you have said. Love is still the goal-the prize, so to speak-but I'm sure not all can love the same in this life. It's not easy for anyone. But it's opposite, selfish, cold, pride is what drives the sin that causes so much evil and harm in this world.

And I tend to believe, BTW, that faith is implicit in a person of good will who genuinely loves well. They have to have a larger perspective, of the common good and of something outside of and larger than themselves that gives importance to how we treat each other. I see that as increasingly dying in our world right now, where hedonism and cyncism and lack of hope and love and darkness in general seem to be increasing.

FreeGrace2 · Oct 16, 2021

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
Rom 11:29 says that the gifts of God are irrevocable.

fhansen said:
Well, He was speaking of His calling to the Jews in 11:29

There is NOTHING about the "calling to the Jews" being described as a gift.

The ONLY things described as gifts prior to Rom 11:29 are these:

spiritual gifts: 1:11 and 12:6

salvation: 5:15-17

eternal life: 6:23

He doesn’t take the will of man away

Nor does God take away any of the gifts that He gives to those who believe.

Salvation is not a sort of magical one-time event permanently sealed by an act of believing.

Whoever has described salvation as "a sort of magical" anything??? That would be the height of stupidity.

But I'm glad you bring up "sealed". Thank you. This is what the Bible says about being sealed:

Eph 1:13,14
13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,
14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

Notice, too, that Paul tells his audience (including us today) "WHEN you heard", "WHEN you believed" and "you WERE marked in Him with a seal". Please notice the tense here. It's not the misguided notion of a present tense that requires ongoing action in order for the results (salvation, sealing) to continue. No. Paul describes hearing, believing, and sealing as actions in the past.

It's a relationship with God that marks and defines man's justice, his telos, and as with any relationship it can be broken instead of continuously maintained.

Then please quote the verses about salvation being "continuously maintained" as if man even has such power. Nonsense.

And please quote the verse that shows the believer's relationship can be broken.

The Bible doesn't use the familiar terms "father" and "son" or "child" lightly. Just as the physical relationship between parent and child is PERMANENT through physical DNA, so the believer's relationship with God is just as PERMANENT through the sealing of the Holy Spirit, the "spiritual DNA" that forever binds the believer to God as His child.

What you apparently don't understand is that fallen man never had a “sin nature” to begin with

Fully aware of that. Neither did Lucifer when he rebelled. So what? Do you have a point?

Well, what change do you think God makes in His new creations-that they can't possibly compromise they're saved justified status with Him?

Could you please rephrase this question; I am unable to figure out what you are saying.

They still have wills, they can still sin.

Granted. What is your point?

They're not yet fully committed to Him to the extent that they do sin, to the extent that they don’t place Him first above all else IOW.

What is the point?

At the end of the day He’s the judge of how well we’ve done with the gifts, the grace, given. He’s patient and kind-we’re the wildcard.

So what? How does any of this relate to your notion that salvation can be lost?

A new creation is more than a forgiven individual or a "snow-covered dung-heap" but is a child of God, in communion with Him, lifted from the pit, renewed into His image with the seeds of His righteousness, identified as faith, hope, and, most importantly, love, now implanted into them. But they'll still struggle with sin, being tested, challenged, and, hopefully, refined. This is because our wills are necessarily involved. They can choose to exercise and grow in that righteousness as they "invest" their "talents" or they can compromise it-by living unrighteously, returning to the flesh, rejecting the heavenly gift they've tasted-Heb 6:4-5. Justification and sanctification are seamless parts of the same operation-personal righteousness, not merely an imputed one, being God's work in us:
"Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. The one who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous. The one who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil’s work." 1 John 3:7-8

What, exactly, is your point here?

So far, you still haven't proven from Scripture with clearly stated verses that salvation can be lost, for any reason.

prophecy_uk · Oct 17, 2021

FreeGrace2 said:
FreeGrace2 said: ↑
Rom 11:29 says that the gifts of God are irrevocable.

But I'm glad you bring up "sealed". Thank you. This is what the Bible says about being sealed:

Eph 1:13,14
13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,
14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

Notice, too, that Paul tells his audience (including us today) "WHEN you heard", "WHEN you believed" and "you WERE marked in Him with a seal". Please notice the tense here. It's not the misguided notion of a present tense that requires ongoing action in order for the results (salvation, sealing) to continue. No. Paul describes hearing, believing, and sealing as actions in the past.

So far, you still haven't proven from Scripture with clearly stated verses that salvation can be lost, for any reason.

They trusted, they heard, they believed, they were guaranteed with that Holy Spirit of PROMISE of our INHERITANCE.

Then all that is told is, to add to what they had, the Spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Him, their eyes then being enlightened.....

Ephesians 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of PROMISE,
14 Which is the earnest of our INHERITANCE until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
15 Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints,
16 Cease not to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers;
17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:
18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,
19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,

For those believers to not be together with unbelievers, to come out and be separate from the unbelievers, for God to be our Father.

Having those precious PROMISES, the believers be not slothful, but to follow with patience to INHERIT the PROMISES.

Abraham, after he had patiently endured, INHERITED ( obtained) THE PROMISES..

2 Corinthians 6:14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?
15 And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?
16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you.
18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.

2 Corinthians 7:1 HAVING THEREFORE THESE PROMISES, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

Hebrews 6:12 That ye BE NOT SLOTHFUL, but followers of them who THROUGH FAITH AND PATIENCE INHERIT THE PROMISES.
13 For when God made promise to Abraham, because he could swear by no greater, he sware by himself,
14 Saying, Surely blessing I will bless thee, and multiplying I will multiply thee.
15 And so, after he had patiently endured, he obtained the promise.

WE ARE GIVEN THESE EXCEEDING GREAT AND PRECIOUS PROMISES, to be partaker of the divine nature.

Giving all diligence, add to faith, virtue, knowledge, temperance, patience, godliness, kindness, charity, to never be unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ ( His promises inherited by the Spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Christ and patience to inherit as seen in Abraham)..

2 Peter 1:3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
4 Whereby are given unto us EXCEEDING GREAT AND PRECIOUS PROMISES: that BY THESE YE MIGHT BE PARTAKERS OF THE DIVINE NATURE, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

FreeGrace2 · Oct 17, 2021

prophecy_uk said:
They trusted, they heard, they believed, they were guaranteed with that Holy Spirit of PROMISE of our INHERITANCE.

Then all that is told is, to add to what they had, the Spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Him, their eyes then being enlightened.....

Ephesians 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of PROMISE,
14 Which is the earnest of our INHERITANCE until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
15 Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints,
16 Cease not to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers;
17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:
18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,
19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,

What is your point here?

Paul's point is clear; those who HAVE heard, HAVE believed, and HAVE BEEN SEALED with the Spirit are guaranteed an inheritance.

For those believers to not be together with unbelievers, to come out and be separate from the unbelievers, for God to be our Father.

This is NOT a requirement for the guarantee.

Having those precious PROMISES, the believers be not slothful, but to follow with patience to INHERIT the PROMISES.

Absolutely. And again, this is not a requirement for the guarantee.

Abraham, after he had patiently endured, INHERITED ( obtained) THE PROMISES..

Why are you comparing apples to oranges here?

2 Corinthians 6:14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?
15 And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?
16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you.
18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.

2 Corinthians 7:1 HAVING THEREFORE THESE PROMISES, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

Hebrews 6:12 That ye BE NOT SLOTHFUL, but followers of them who THROUGH FAITH AND PATIENCE INHERIT THE PROMISES.
13 For when God made promise to Abraham, because he could swear by no greater, he sware by himself,
14 Saying, Surely blessing I will bless thee, and multiplying I will multiply thee.
15 And so, after he had patiently endured, he obtained the promise.

Are you trying to claim that there is more than Eph 1:13,14 that is required for the guarantee mentioned in v.14? Forget it.

WE ARE GIVEN THESE EXCEEDING GREAT AND PRECIOUS PROMISES, to be partaker of the divine nature.

No. Eph 1:13,14 tells us very clearly that those who HAVE heard and HAVE believed HAVE BEEN sealed with the Holy Spirit.

That's HOW we "partake of the "divine nature". He lives within us. On the basis of HAVING heard, HAVING believed.

Giving all diligence, add to faith, virtue, knowledge, temperance, patience, godliness, kindness, charity, to never be unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ ( His promises inherited by the Spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Christ and patience to inherit as seen in Abraham)..

2 Peter 1:3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
4 Whereby are given unto us EXCEEDING GREAT AND PRECIOUS PROMISES: that BY THESE YE MIGHT BE PARTAKERS OF THE DIVINE NATURE, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

All this is about spiritual growth, not receiving salvation. I think you are confused.

fhansen · Oct 17, 2021

FreeGrace2 said:
In the post that you commented on.

If you're able you should find it because as far as I can find, I've insinuated no such thing anywhere. I'll expect your findings in any case.

FreeGrace2 said:
No. Paul's point, and the Bible's point is simple and clear: God saves those who believe.

Man must trust what God says. That is the key to salvation. Not what man does in effort to please.

Even faith is a choice, a step that man isn't compelled to take. It’s been said that ‘Integrity is to do the right thing even when no one’s looking’. That’s where God wants us, clean on the inside so the outside will be clean. That’s the key to salvation, the purpose of faith.

FreeGrace2 said:
There is no such thing. That's just your imagination or confusion.

The ONLY righteousness that counts is the righteousness that God IMPUTES to those who believe in His Son. Gen 15:6

Why you think I don't understand the 'purpose of believing' is weird. This makes me think that you don't understand the purpose.

When the basis of judgment for what makes man right in the eyes of God is reduced solely to a self-assessed level or quantity or quality of faith, rather than on actual righteousness now possessed evidenced by fruit, then we've bought into a "gospel" that means- and changes- nothing-which is exactly how the flesh wants to stay anyway. “I’m forgiven of sin-hallelujah! And I don’t even need to be righteous-because I…I…believe! And because I’m just a worthless sinful wretch anyway no matter what. Aren’t you proud of how humble I am, Lord, for constantly acknowledging my deprived and helpless state? Thank you for not enjoining me, not obliging me to actually be righteous, heaven forbid…to love-yuck!! That would be an awful expectation!!! Too heavy a burden-and I don’t really like any burden, no matter how light, or how easy the yoke. That would be impossible anyway, even with You, since I’m such a POD, that You made BTW. But, I believe anyway! Isn’t that cool?

fhansen · Oct 17, 2021

FreeGrace2 said:
Fully aware of that. Neither did Lucifer when he rebelled. So what? Do you have a point?

The point was that fallen man does not possess a “sin nature”, as if something new was added to him at the fall.

fhansen · Oct 17, 2021

FreeGrace2 said:
The Greek word for "were made" is 'katestathēsan'. It means: ' to set in order, appoint'.

Then, "will be made" is 'katastathēsontai' and means the same as the first Greek word.

NOTHING about being "made". To "set in order" or to "appoint" is a declaration.

Right, nothing about being "made". And yet you'll be hard pressed to find a single bible version that doesn't translate the words into "made just", the common reading of those two words. But so much for bible-scholarship I guess.

But I'll ask a question. Should a born-again believer be expected to behave better, with a better "lifestyle", than before conversion? And, if so, why?

FreeGrace2 · Oct 17, 2021

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
No. Paul's point, and the Bible's point is simple and clear: God saves those who believe.

Man must trust what God says. That is the key to salvation. Not what man does in effort to please.

fhansen said:
Even faith is a choice, a step that man isn't compelled to take. It’s been said that ‘Integrity is to do the right thing even when no one’s looking’. That’s where God wants us, clean on the inside so the outside will be clean. That’s the key to salvation, the purpose of faith.

The key to salvation is trusting what God says.

When the basis of judgment for what makes man right in the eyes of God is reduced solely to a self-assessed level or quantity or quality of faith

What do you mean by "a self-assessed level/quantity/quality of faith", and where in the world did you get that from??

No one is talking about the made up things you bring up. Just more red herrings.

Everyone is able to understand what faith is. It's TRUST. Trusting in what God says.

rather than on actual righteousness now possessed evidenced by fruit, then we've bought into a "gospel" that means

It seems you really don't get it. The ONLY righteousness that pleased God is His own righteousness. Not man's. In fact, man's righteousness is highly OFFENSIVE to Him.

Isa 64:6 - All of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags; we all shrivel up like a leaf, and like the wind our sins sweep us away.

Apparently you either didn't know this verse, or you conveniently ignore it.

“I’m forgiven of sin-hallelujah! And I don’t even need to be righteous-because I…I…believe! And because I’m just a worthless sinful wretch anyway no matter what.

If you want to believe that's what people who believe the Bible think, go ahead. But you couldn't be more wrong.

I am saved and forgiven because God saved and forgave me. I NEED to have God's righteousness in order to please Him. My own righteousness's are filthy rags.

FreeGrace2 · Oct 17, 2021

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
Fully aware of that. Neither did Lucifer when he rebelled. So what? Do you have a point?

fhansen said:
The point was that fallen man does not possess a “sin nature”, as if something new was added to him at the fall.

I am really astounded at your lack of biblical understanding.

Adam's sin didn't GIVE him something new. His sin corrupted his own flesh. That's not an addition.

FreeGrace2 · Oct 17, 2021

fhansen said:
Right, nothing about being "made". And yet you'll be hard pressed to find a single bible version that doesn't translate the words into "made just", the common reading of those two words. But so much for bible-scholarship I guess.

Have you EVER gone to biblehub.com?? It seems you are totally unaware of it.

But I'll ask a question. Should a born-again believer be expected to behave better, with a better "lifestyle", than before conversion? And, if so, why?

Yes, of course. For 3 biblical reasons.

1. to be rewarded in eternity. Rev 22:12
2. to avoid God's painful discipline. Heb 12:11
3. love for God is demonstrated by one's works.

fhansen · Oct 17, 2021

FreeGrace2 said:
What do you mean by "a self-assessed level/quantity/quality of faith", and where in the world did you get that from??

People do it all the time under influence of the doctrine of Sola Fide, determining what, exactly, one must believe, and that they, themselves, believe correctly, and that their faith is sufficient in itself to make them just in the eyes of God

fhansen · Oct 17, 2021

FreeGrace2 said:
Have you EVER gone to biblehub.com?? It seems you are totally unaware of it.

Have you? Or Bible gateway? Your assignment: start looking up Rom 5:18 and 19 in each version

O.B.N.C.

May God be with you and bless you.

Senior Veteran

May God be with you and bless you.

May God be with you and bless you.

Oldbie

Well-Known Member

Senior Veteran

Oldbie

Oldbie

Senior Veteran

Well-Known Member

Senior Veteran

Oldbie

Oldbie

Oldbie

Senior Veteran

Senior Veteran

Senior Veteran

Oldbie

Oldbie

Similar threads