The Gospel of UR: What's the message?

Saint Steven · Oct 15, 2021

renniks said:
Lol, kinda missed the point. We will know what God's standard is when he judges our doctrine.

Wouldn't that be too late from your perspective?
If you want to earn rewards, how do you do it?

Saint Steven · Oct 15, 2021

renniks said:
Lol, kinda missed the point. We will know what God's standard is when he judges our doctrine.

How do you get the judgment of doctrine out of this passage?
Is that even a thing? (the judgment of doctrine)

1 Corinthians 3:11-15 NIV
For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13 their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work. 14 If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. 15 If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames.

renniks · Oct 15, 2021

Saint Steven said:
Wouldn't that be too late from your perspective?
If you want to earn rewards, how do you do it?

Well let's see:
"Rejoice and be glad, for your reward is great in heaven, for so they persecuted the prophets who were before you."

"For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil."

"But, as it is written, “What no eye has seen, nor ear heard, nor the heart of man imagined, what God has prepared for those who love him”—

"But love your enemies, and do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return, and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, for he is kind to the ungrateful and the evil."

Just from my perspective, I want to say " I'm screwed." ( Am I allowed to say that here?)

But then I think I really do love God, I just don't always do what I should. And maybe he grades on a curve?

I suspect that people will be as surprised at the things that bring rewards as they are about what doesn't.

renniks · Oct 15, 2021

Saint Steven said:
How do you get the judgment of doctrine out of this passage?
Is that even a thing? (the judgment of doctrine)

1 Corinthians 3:11-15 NIV
For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13 their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work. 14 If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. 15 If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames.

Context. As I already showed.

Saint Steven · Oct 15, 2021

renniks said:
Just from my perspective, I want to say " I'm screwed." ( Am I allowed to say that here?)

But then I think I really do love God, I just don't always do what I should. And maybe he grades on a curve?

I suspect that people will be as surprised at the things that bring rewards as they are about what doesn't.

That's a surprising response based on the scriptures you quoted. (pasted below)
This is the tragedy of the doctrine you have come to put your trust in.
It leaves you in despair. It paints a picture of a vindictive God that hates you in reality.
Fortunately, nothing could be further from the truth. God loves us all so much.
And he will fulfill the desire for home and family and love in every heart.
God will not be defeated by his own creation. He will be glorified in it.

"Rejoice and be glad, for your reward is great in heaven, for so they persecuted the prophets who were before you."

"For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil."

"But, as it is written, “What no eye has seen, nor ear heard, nor the heart of man imagined, what God has prepared for those who love him”—

"But love your enemies, and do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return, and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, for he is kind to the ungrateful and the evil."

renniks · Oct 16, 2021

Saint Steven said:
That's a surprising response based on the scriptures you quoted. (pasted below)
This is the tragedy of the doctrine you have come to put your trust in.
It leaves you in despair. It paints a picture of a vindictive God that hates you in reality.
Fortunately, nothing could be further from the truth. God loves us all so much.
And he will fulfill the desire for home and family and love in every heart.
God will not be defeated by his own creation. He will be glorified in it.

"Rejoice and be glad, for your reward is great in heaven, for so they persecuted the prophets who were before you."

"For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil."

"But, as it is written, “What no eye has seen, nor ear heard, nor the heart of man imagined, what God has prepared for those who love him”—

"But love your enemies, and do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return, and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, for he is kind to the ungrateful and the evil."

I don't think it's surprising. What one of us thinks we have done more good than evil? Even if we are generally good in our actions, we need to acknowledge our tendancy to stray.
And I'm not saying I'm not assured of heaven but I have doubts about getting much reward. That's ok. I'd rather be the least in heaven than be separate from God's love forever.

Saint Steven · Oct 16, 2021

renniks said:
I don't think it's surprising. What one of us thinks we have done more good than evil? Even if we are generally good in our actions, we need to acknowledge our tendancy to stray.
And I'm not saying I'm not assured of heaven but I have doubts about getting much reward. That's ok. I'd rather be the least in heaven than be separate from God's love forever.

From my perspective, anyone that follows the prompts of the Holy Spirit will be rewarded.

Sometimes that requires some guts. At least twice God has asked me in an audible (in my mind) voice to speak to a complete stranger. And when I asked God what I was supposed to say... no response. - lol

I needed to be obedient to the request. And the words I needed came to me.
In fact, this is how the gift of prophecy works.
Open your mouth (when prompted) and the words come out.

Luke 12:11-12 NIV
“When you are brought before synagogues, rulers and authorities, do not worry about how you will defend yourselves or what you will say, 12 for the Holy Spirit will teach you at that time what you should say.”

Shrewd Manager · Oct 17, 2021

Clare73 said:
Not at all. . .God's heaven is still nominated "Pharisee heaven" and still being mocked.

Oh, Clare.

For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven. (Mt 5:20)

And He answered them and said, “O unbelieving generation, how long shall I be with you? How long shall I put up with you? (Mk 9:19)

Clare73 · Oct 17, 2021

Shrewd Manager said:
Oh, Clare.

For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven. (Mt 5:20)

And He answered them and said, “O unbelieving generation, how long shall I be with you? How long shall I put up with you? (Mk 9:19)

And?

Jeff Saunders · Jun 7, 2022

Saint Steven said:
UR = Ultimate Redemption, or Universal Reconciliation, or Universal Restoration, or simply Christian Universalism. (CU in heaven - lol)

A common misconception about UR is that there is no need for the gospel if everyone is "automatically" saved anyway. "Live the way you want, because nothing matters. Everyone goes to heaven, so what's the point in Christianity?" That's a valid question, but it comes from a place of ignorance concerning UR.

Something I have been contemplating for a while.
Does UR change everything, or change nothing, concerning the gospel message?
What stays and what goes away?

The purpose of this thread is not to debate whether UR is true or false, but to flesh some specifics. I suppose those opposed to UR could post your complaints about what goes away. That sort of input might be helpful and bring some clarity to the subject.

Certainly the threat of hell as a motivation to "get saved" goes away.
(spiritual extortion gone - good riddance)

And the focus is away from what we "do" to be saved, and learning that we "are" saved.
And most don't know it yet.

But does that mean we do nothing? (No, that's not what it means.)
How do we respond to the message that all will be saved?
In fact, what is the message?

The gospel of UR: What's the message?

--- EDIT ---

My summary attempt to answer my own question from post #113.

Death came through a man, so life comes through a man. Just like in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. (but each in turn...) That is the gospel of UR in a nutshell. (my first attempt)

1 Corinthians 15:21-23 NIV
For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

For me the message was to love all as Jesus loves all. Before UR it was easy not to love some people, if God is going to torture them for not loving him why should I love them? But now I see all mankind is part of Gods family and when Jesus said that if you did not do these things to least of these you did not do it to Him. My love for Jesus was strong before but now I understand what love is , that all men are part of what Jesus died for and if He loves them so should I. That’s the message for me to become more Christ like .

Jeff Saunders · Jun 7, 2022

renniks said:
Well it seems like they want to see God as all love and no judgement.
I never understood how the Hitler's of the world are supposed to get a pass from God.. I guess the theory is that once they understand everything they will worship God, but I don't see this in scripture.

You do not understand UR we believe in Gods judgement and the punishment from that judgement will be awful but it doesn’t last forever. What makes you think God loves you more than Hitler? Each of us are capable of the same things Hitler did but for us who have accepted Jesus we move out of death to life so we will not be a monster but that is only by Gods grace. Even Hitler once all the dross is stripped away will be won over by Gods love. Isn’t that what happened to every Christian we see Gods love and He wins us over? So no Hitler does not get a pass he will pay dearly for all he did.

renniks · Jun 7, 2022

Jeff Saunders said:
You do not understand UR we believe in Gods judgement and the punishment from that judgement will be awful but it doesn’t last forever. What makes you think God loves you more than Hitler? Each of us are capable of the same things Hitler did but for us who have accepted Jesus we move out of death to life so we will not be a monster but that is only by Gods grace. Even Hitler once all the dross is stripped away will be won over by Gods love. Isn’t that what happened to every Christian we see Gods love and He wins us over? So no Hitler does not get a pass he will pay dearly for all he did.

That's very optimistic. It's just not spelled out that way in scripture.

Gregory Thompson · Jun 8, 2022

People are still thrown into the lake of fire, (a world where God, the fire, is everywhere) but what is purified is "sin"

Stating that God cannot purify something (eternal torment) kind of declares sin as a God with immortal and eternal qualities - this is pretty wrong.

FineLinen · Jun 30, 2022

"In His love, He chose us as His own in Christ before the creation of the world, that we might be holy and without blemish in His presence. For He pre-destined us to be adopted by Himself as sons through Jesus Christ--such being His gracious will and pleasure--to the praise of the splendour of His grace with which He has enriched us in the beloved One. It is in Him, and through the shedding of His blood, that we have our deliverance--the forgiveness of our offences--so abundant was God's grace, the grace which He, the possessor of all wisdom and understanding, lavished upon us, when He made known to us the secret of His will. And this is in harmony with God's merciful purpose for the government of the world when the times are ripe for it--the purpose which He has cherished in His own mind of restoring the whole creation to find its one Head in Christ; yes, things in Heaven and things on earth, to find their one Head in Him. In Him we have been made heirs, having been chosen beforehand in accordance with the intention of Him whose might carries out in everything the design of His own will..." ~R.F. Weymouth

FineLinen · Jun 30, 2022

https://www.reddit.com/user/From_Him_For_Him/comments/ugqzv0/abbas_perfect_plan/

FineLinen · Jun 30, 2022

What FineLinen Believes =

Every one of us, the good, the bad and the ugly face the FIRE of our Glorious God!

Our Father, Abba, is the final destination for the entire creation (clearly defined as the Source, Guide & Goal of the all/ ta panta).

I believe in "the restoration of ALL things, which God has spoken by the mouths of the prophets since the world began." -Acts 3:21-

I believe that the "good tidings of great joy will be to ALL people." -Luke 2:10

I believe that believers in Christ Jesus are "born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor the will of man, but of God." -John 1:13-

I believe that God appointed Jesus Christ "heir of ALL things, and through whom He made the universe." -Hebr. 1:2-

I believe that "no man can come to Christ unless the Father who sent Him draws him." -John 6:44

I believe "God gave Jesus authority over ALL flesh, that He should give eternal life to as many as God gave Him." -John 17:2-

I believe the Father "has given ALL things into Jesus' hands." -John 13:3-

I believe that Jesus Christ "was the true light which gives light to every man who come into the world." -John 1:9

I believe that "just as the result of one trespass was condemnation to ALL men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification for ALL men." -Romans 5:18

I believe one mans sin "brought condemnation for all mankind." -Romans 5: 19-

I believe one mans righteousness brings "right relationship with God, and new life for everyone." -Romans 5:19-

I believe one mans sin made the whole of mankind sinners. I also believe the righteousness of one Man makes the whole of mankind righteous.

Saint Steven · Jun 30, 2022

@Hillsage look who's back. Starting at Post #714

Saint Steven · Jun 30, 2022

FineLinen said:
https://www.reddit.com/user/From_Him_For_Him/comments/ugqzv0/abbas_perfect_plan/

ABBA's Perfect Plan

The atonement was not to satisfy God's justice, but to reveal His Love.

2. The justice of God is not against the sinner, demanding his condemnation, but for him, insuring his salvation.

3. God is not in contrast with, much less in opposition to Christ in the atonement, but in perfect harmony and accord.

4. The atonement is not the exclusive work of Christ in order to reconcile God unto the world, but it is the work of "God in Christ" to reconcile the world unto himself.

5. Christ does not have to plead with God in order to make him willing to pardon the sinner, but God, by his ministers, "beseeches" (II Cor. 5:20), the sinner to make them willing to be pardoned.

6. Hence the atonement is not to propitiate God, but man; not to make God favorably disposed toward man, but to make his already existing favor known to man.

7. Christ did not die as our substitute, but as our companion and associate; not instead of man, but with him and for him.

8. Christ did not die to save us from the penalty of sin, but from sin itself.

9. Christ did not die that we might not die, but to deliver us out of a death in which we were already involved.

10. The sinner is not redeemed because he repents, but he is called upon to repent because he has been redeemed.

11. The atonement is not the cause of God's love to man, giving rise to that love, but the effect, flowing out of that love.

12. The final outcome of the atoning scheme is not a partial success, but a perfect, absolute, and universal triumph!

ABBA's plan He cherishes!

wendykvw · Jun 30, 2022

Saint Steven said:
UR = Ultimate Redemption, or Universal Reconciliation, or Universal Restoration, or simply Christian Universalism. (CU in heaven - lol)

A common misconception about UR is that there is no need for the gospel if everyone is "automatically" saved anyway. "Live the way you want, because nothing matters. Everyone goes to heaven, so what's the point in Christianity?" That's a valid question, but it comes from a place of ignorance concerning UR.

Something I have been contemplating for a while.
Does UR change everything, or change nothing, concerning the gospel message?
What stays and what goes away?

The purpose of this thread is not to debate whether UR is true or false, but to flesh some specifics. I suppose those opposed to UR could post your complaints about what goes away. That sort of input might be helpful and bring some clarity to the subject.

Certainly the threat of hell as a motivation to "get saved" goes away.
(spiritual extortion gone - good riddance)

And the focus is away from what we "do" to be saved, and learning that we "are" saved.
And most don't know it yet.

But does that mean we do nothing? (No, that's not what it means.)
How do we respond to the message that all will be saved?
In fact, what is the message?

The gospel of UR: What's the message?

--- EDIT ---

My summary attempt to answer my own question from post #113.

Death came through a man, so life comes through a man. Just like in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. (but each in turn...) That is the gospel of UR in a nutshell. (my first attempt)

1 Corinthians 15:21-23 NIV
For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

Prepare for the Kingdom of Heaven is near.

Jeff Saunders · Jun 30, 2022

Saint Steven said:
ABBA's Perfect Plan

The atonement was not to satisfy God's justice, but to reveal His Love.

2. The justice of God is not against the sinner, demanding his condemnation, but for him, insuring his salvation.

3. God is not in contrast with, much less in opposition to Christ in the atonement, but in perfect harmony and accord.

4. The atonement is not the exclusive work of Christ in order to reconcile God unto the world, but it is the work of "God in Christ" to reconcile the world unto himself.

5. Christ does not have to plead with God in order to make him willing to pardon the sinner, but God, by his ministers, "beseeches" (II Cor. 5:20), the sinner to make them willing to be pardoned.

6. Hence the atonement is not to propitiate God, but man; not to make God favorably disposed toward man, but to make his already existing favor known to man.

7. Christ did not die as our substitute, but as our companion and associate; not instead of man, but with him and for him.

8. Christ did not die to save us from the penalty of sin, but from sin itself.

9. Christ did not die that we might not die, but to deliver us out of a death in which we were already involved.

10. The sinner is not redeemed because he repents, but he is called upon to repent because he has been redeemed.

11. The atonement is not the cause of God's love to man, giving rise to that love, but the effect, flowing out of that love.

12. The final outcome of the atoning scheme is not a partial success, but a perfect, absolute, and universal triumph!

ABBA's plan He cherishes!

It is so nice to see people who understand the heart of the Father. I think too many people have made an idol out of the Bible and don’t even see who it is pointing to.

The Gospel of UR: What's the message?

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