Are Jews still God's Chosen People ?

visionary said:

It is like a wedding ring, it means nothing if the covenant, marriage vows, are not kept.

Click to expand...

Great analogy.

God divorced all His people after the flesh, when they recieved not His Son and had Him crucified instead.

They still have a ring with a name on it, and it means nothing to God. And the sound of it from their mouths is as sounding brass and a tinkling cymbal. (1 Cor 13:1)

By law, there is no more marriage with the death of a spouse. The one that is alive and remaining can marry another.

Jesus is the One alive and remaining by resurrection from the dead, and that old spouse is now dead to God.

The church of Jesus Christ is now the bride and children of Israel espoused to the Lord. (2 Cor 11:2)

It was unbelieving Israel that died to God at the cross, so that the Lord was set free from the law of marriage to marry another.

There are two different last days prophecies in Scripture:

The first is of the last days of the first covenant, where all God's own people are cut off and condemned in unbelief, because they recieved Him not.

The second is of the last days of the new covenant, where a remnant of God's own people are remaining alive in faith, because they recieved not the mark of the beast.

The first of the last days concludes with the cross, burial, and resurrection of the Redeemer, and the end of these last days concludes with the Redeemer coming in the air, and the resurrection of all the dead in Christ and them alive and remaining, to meet Him in the air.

All flesh was cut off at the cross, with none on earth believing God, no, not one, and now all flesh is called to the cross and commanded to repent and believe the gospel of the risen Saviour Jesus as Lord of Lords, and King of Kings.

It is the tabernacle of David now being built again, and the house of Israel and of Judah now being grafted in again, that will be alive and remaining to meet the Lord in the air at the end of this age, which will be the beginning of His reign with them on earth.

Therefore fear thou not, O my servant Jacob, saith the LORD; neither be dismayed, O Israel: for, lo, I will save thee from afar, and thy seed from the land of their captivity; and Jacob shall return, and shall be in rest, and be quiet, and none shall make him afraid.

For I am with thee, saith the LORD, to save thee: though I make a full end of all nations whither I have scattered thee, yet will I not make a full end of thee: but I will correct thee in measure, and will not leave thee altogether unpunished. (Jerem 30)

The promised seed of Abraham and of Jacob is now only them with circumcision of Christ by faith.

This is the last return from the captivity of all flesh after the cross: the captivity of being born in bondage as Ishmael, with none remaining by flesh born of promise as Isaac.

The captivity of all flesh is that after the cross, there is no more natural people that can be justified any longer as chosen children of Israel by outward circumcision of the flesh, because there remains no such circumcision with God, even as no such law of circumcision on the 8th day remains in the New Covenant of Christ.

The full end of all nations happened at the cross, where no natural born nation on earth any longer has any promise, covenant, nor choosing of God, except in repenting and believing the gospel of Jesus Christ: which includes the one calling itself Israel in name only.

The promise, hope, and choosing of God for a natural nation on earth made a full end at the cross, when they had their own God of Israel crucified and buried and left for dead.

The return of Jacob is now for all people on earth, by the salvation of the Lord Jesus, to be grafted into the green olive tree of Israel and of Judah.

There is no more promised seed after the flesh, because there is no more profit in the flesh with God.

U.S. Grant said:

There are two different last days prophecies in Scripture:

The first is of the last days of the first covenant, where all God's own people are cut off and condemned in unbelief, because they recieved Him not.

The second is of the last days of the new covenant, where a remnant of God's own people are remaining alive in faith, because they recieved not the mark of the beast.

The first of the last days concludes with the cross, burial, and resurrection of the Redeemer, and the end of these last days concludes with the Redeemer coming in the air, and the resurrection of all the dead in Christ and them alive and remaining, to meet Him in the air.

All flesh was cut off at the cross, with none on earth believing God, no, not one, and now all flesh is called to the cross and commanded to repent and believe the gospel of the risen Saviour Jesus as Lord of Lords, and King of Kings.

Click to expand...

It is the tabernacle of David now being built again, and the house of Israel and of Judah now being grafted in again, that will be alive and remaining to meet the Lord in the air at the end of this age, which will be the beginning of His reign with them on earth.

Click to expand...

Are you referring to a temporal earthly reign?

Clare73 said:

Are you referring to a temporal earthly reign?

Click to expand...

Yes. I believe in both spiritual and temporal millennialism: current spiritual reign with Christ on earth in our own lives with natural bodies, and future temporal reign with Christ over the earth in our resurrected spiritual bodies.

The main problem with 'amillennialism' is that the first resurrection of the dead in Christ, and them that are alive and remain, is written clearly prior to the reign of Christ with His saints on earth.


We know the first resurrection has not occurred, because we are absent from the body to be in the presence of the Lord (2 Cor 5:8), but when He appears like lightning from heaven, we shall be present with Him in resurrected spiritual bodies in the air.

It is true that spiritually and ministerially all who believe the Lord Jesus now sit in heavenly places, and being with Him one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years with Him is as day one: the new and living way of Jesus never fades nor 'gets old'. But that does not mean the physical manifestation of His reign on earth will not occur according to the Scriptures.

The millennial reign of Christ with His resurrected saints is first spiritual in our natural bodies, and then temporal in our resurrected spiritual bodies.

The children of Israel did in fact walk upon dry ground physically through the Red Sea, even as the Scriptures say, and is become a spiritual teaching for us today pertaining to deliverance from sins by the hand of the Lord. Even so, the prophecies of future temporal things are to be current spiritual instruction for us beforehand.

This is why we are to keep those things written in the Revelation book of prophecy, for spiritually and ministerially the time is at hand for all of us, but also the time will come, when they will be fulfilled physically on earth.

We shouldn't take away from the physical facts of past events of Scripture, in order to apply them spiritually and personally in our own lives, as some do with the crossing of the Red Sea. Neither should we take away from the physical facts of future prophecy to apply them today in the Lord, as some do with the reign of Jesus and His resurrected saints one earth.

U.S. Grant said:

Yes. I believe in both spiritual and temporal millennialism: current spiritual reign with Christ on earth in our own lives with natural bodies, and future temporal reign with Christ over the earth in our resurrected spiritual bodies.

Click to expand...

So you mean at the end of time (non-temporal), in eternity, in the new heaven and new earth?

The main problem with 'amillennialism' is that the first resurrection of the dead in Christ, and them that are alive and remain, is written clearly prior to the reign of Christ with His saints on earth.
We know the first resurrection has not occurred, because we are absent from the body to be in the presence of the Lord (2 Cor 5:8), but when He appears like lightning from heaven,

Click to expand...

we shall be present with Him in resurrected spiritual bodies in the air.

Click to expand...

Resurrected spiritual bodies are still physical. The natural (sinful) physical body that goes into the ground is the same physical body ("it") that comes out of the ground a spiritual (sinless, glorified) physical body (1 Corinthians 15:42-44), as Jesus' spiritual resurrection body was physical (Luke 24:38-39).

It is true that spiritually and ministerially all who believe the Lord Jesus now sit in heavenly places, and being with Him one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years with Him is as day one: the new and living way of Jesus never fades nor 'gets old'. But that does not mean the physical manifestation of His reign on earth will not occur according to the Scriptures.

The millennial reign of Christ with His resurrected saints is first spiritual in our natural bodies, and then temporal in our resurrected spiritual bodies.

The children of Israel did in fact walk upon dry ground physically through the Red Sea, even as the Scriptures say, and is become a spiritual teaching for us today pertaining to deliverance from sins by the hand of the Lord. Even so, the prophecies of future temporal things are to be current spiritual instruction for us beforehand.

This is why we are to keep those things written in the Revelation book of prophecy, for spiritually and ministerially the time is at hand for all of us, but also the time will come, when they will be fulfilled physically on earth.

We shouldn't take away from the physical facts of past events of Scripture, in order to apply them spiritually and personally in our own lives, as some do with the crossing of the Red Sea. Neither should we take away from the physical facts of future prophecy to apply them today in the Lord, as some do with the reign of Jesus and His resurrected saints one earth.

Click to expand...

For continuity, it is best to follow God's time line. He outlines the events by the feasts, so just as the spring feasts were fulfilled by Yeshua's first coming, so also will the fall feasts be fulfilled with His second coming.

Clare73 said:

So you mean at the end of time (non-temporal), in eternity, in the new heaven and new earth?
Resurrected spiritual bodies are still physical. The natural (sinful) physical body that goes into the ground is the same physical body ("it") that comes out of the ground a spiritual (sinless, glorified) physical body (1 Corinthians 15:42-44), as Jesus' spiritual resurrection body was physical (Luke 24:38-39).

Click to expand...

I mean a reign of Christ over all the earth with His saints reigning with Him, after the First resurrection and ending before the final great white throne judgment.

Resurrected spiritual bodies are still physical.

True. That is the understanding of resurrected spiritual bodies being physically seen, even as Jesus' was:

For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection.

And so, I believe the body of Christ in natural flesh are now in the day of the Lord as Peter preached in Acts 2, where Christ reigns over His body on earth in a spiritual millennium of these last days, and there will likewise be a day of the Lord, where Christ will reign physically over the earth with His saints reigning with Him in resurrected spiritual bodies.

If this is true, then the last days of prophecy began with Christ's resurrection, and are ongoing with the remnant of God being grafted into the house of Israel and of Judah, and will end in the first resurrection at the coming of the Lord in the air.

The great tribulation of the last days are therefore also currently ongoing with the beast of Revelation still seducing and deceiving many on earth to receive His name and mark, but only the elect resist the devil and refuse to be deceived with the inhabiters of the earth, which may cost them their physical lives, even as living in Christ costs them their own lives in sin, and there shall remain a remnant alive on earth unto the end.

The Lord could have returned at any time after His ascension in Acts 1, even as the gathered disciples continued looking up for Him to do so.

We are all therefore to wait for His coming, and if we sleep in Christ beforehand, then we will be absent from our bodies for a season at the altar of God in Rev 6, in the presence of the Lord in heaven, while our brethren and sisters in the Lord continue on earth in trial of faith.

Revelation should therefore be read both as spiritual and ministerial instruction to all saints on earth, as well as future prophecy of the end of these last days in resurrection power, to reign with the Lord Jesus on earth.

The day of the Lord began on earth with Jesus' resurrection and will end on earth in Rev 20, with fire coming down from God to destroy both it and the last armies of Satan.

U.S. Grant said:

I mean a reign of Christ over all the earth with His saints reigning with Him, after the First resurrection and ending before the final great white throne judgment.

Click to expand...

The judgment event puts it in time, not eternity. . .with resurrected bodies of the righteous and the unrighteous living in time, not eternity.
However, authoritative NT teaching locates the resurrection with the new earth in eternity:

1) The resurection is located with the final judgment in the last day- --no time afterwards (John 6:39-40, 44, 54; 1 Corinthians 5:5, 1:8; Philippians 1:6, 10, 2:16; 1 Thessalonians 5:2-6), only eternity in the new heaven and new earth, the home of righteousness, which means there is no one outside the bride of Christ, the church, left on the earth.

2) The resurrection of the church is located with the new earth in Romans 8:19-21, where the revealing of the sons of God (resurrection) is located with the liberation of nature from decay (new earth), which is eternity, not time.

Doesn't NT teaching preclude such a reign in time (temporal)?

Resurrected spiritual bodies are still physical.

True. The understanding of resurrected spiritual bodies is that they are physically seen, even as Jesus' was:

For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection.

And so, I believe the body of Christ in natural flesh are now in the day of the Lord as Peter preached in Acts 2, where Christ reigns over His body on earth in a spiritual millennium of these last days, and the there will likewise be a day of the Lord, where Christ will reign physically over the earth with His saints reigning with Him in resurrected spiritual bodies.

Click to expand...

visionary said:

For continuity, it is best to follow God's time line. He outlines the events by the feasts, so just as the spring feasts were fulfilled by Yeshua's first coming, so also will the fall feasts be fulfilled with His second coming.

Click to expand...

Jesus sacrifice is an atonement for sin. All the shadows are accomplished in one sacrifice. How can this be denied?

ralliann said:

Jesus sacrifice is an atonement for sin. All the shadows are accomplished in one sacrifice. How can this be denied?

Click to expand...

It can't be denied, unless someone requires their interpretation of prophecy be fulfilled in a people born of flesh of Abraham in the future.

Ezek 40-48 was a prophecy of hope based upon the people prophesied to in Babylon:

And if they be ashamed of all that they have done, shew them the form of the house, and the fashion thereof, and the goings out thereof...and all the laws thereof: and write it in their sight, that they may keep the whole form thereof, and all the ordinances thereof, and do them. (Ezek 42)

I do not believe Ezek 40-48 will ever be fulfilled, because Jesus came to do so with the Jews, and they rejected Him.

Likewise, the promise of that the Lord would forever dwell with His people on this earth, where the soles of His feet touched:

And he said unto me, Son of man, the place of my throne, and the place of the soles of my feet, where I will dwell in the midst of the children of Israel for ever.

That will no longer be possible based upon later prophecy in Peter and Revelation, where this heaven and earth will be done away with for a new heaven and new earth.

Also, for that prophecy to be fulfilled on earth physically as written, there will be many problems with the new covenant of Christ:

1. There must be blood sacrifices of bulls and goats for sins and trespasses in conjunction with that of the Lamb of God, Who provided Himself a burnt offering for sin:

And in the porch of the gate were two tables on this side, and two tables on that side, to slay thereon the burnt offering and the sin offering and the trespass offering.

2. Those in service to the Lord on earth will also be inwardly circumcised, which is the circumcision of Christ being born again of the Spirit, and yet need blood sacrifice for sins.

3. At this time, there is no outward circumcision with God (Rom 2:20), so that He will need honor it again in future:

Thus saith the Lord GOD; No stranger, uncircumcised in heart, nor uncircumcised in flesh, shall enter into my sanctuary, of any stranger that is among the children of Israel.

4. The servants in God's sanctuary must be born of blood of Abraham as children of Israel, which is not the case now, since there is no profit in the flesh. I.e. there will have to be profit int he flesh again.

Therefore, there can be no new testament of Christ in place at that time, in order to have another new covenant for that people on earth.

Clare73 said:

The judgment event puts it in time, not eternity. . .with resurrected bodies of the righteous and the unrighteous living in time, not eternity.

However, authoritative NT teaching locates the resurrection with the final judgment in the last day--no time afterwards (John 6:39-40, 44, 54; 1 Corinthians 5:5, 1:8; Philippians 1:6, 10, 2:16; 1 Thessalonians 5:2-6), only eternity in the new heaven and new earth, the home of righteousness, which means there is no one outside the bride of Christ, the church, left on the earth.

The NT also locates the resurrection of the church with the new earth in Romans 8:19-21, where the revealing of the sons of God (resurrection) is located with the liberation of nature from decay (new earth), which is eternity, not time.

Doesn't NT teaching preclude such a reign in time (temporal)?

Click to expand...

The judgment event puts it in time, not eternity. . .with resurrected bodies of the righteous and the unrighteous living in time.

Agreed.

However, authoritative NT teaching locates the resurrection with the final judgment in the last day--no time afterwards.

How then do you reconcile the 'First' Resurrection and a millennial reigning with Christ on earth afterward? This first resurrection coinciding with the judgment seat of Christ, that the saints will be judged in, and not at the great white throne.

This makes for 2 different resurrections and judgment of God: first for the saints, then for the dead.

The NT also locates the resurrection of the church with the new earth in Romans 8:19-21, where the revealing of the sons of God (resurrection) is located with the liberation of nature from decay (new earth), which is eternity, not time.

That is a good reading, but not necessarily the only one:

Scripture prophecies of this earth during the reign of Christ to be 'redeemed' from the curse of the law and of death, where the sun shines brighter, and the lion lays down with the lamb. The creature, earth, would therefore no longer be unwillingly subject to vanity and bondage, which would be lifted with the first resurrection manifestations of the sons of God.

Doesn't NT teaching preclude such a reign in time (temporal)?

If the problem of 2 resurrections and judgments could be reconciled, with not time between them, then that would certainly be the case.

And what is most important to us anyway is the Scriptural basis for a current spiritual and ministerial reign of Christ on earth over His believers, and their resurrection, with glory revealed in their spiritual bodies to be seen by all angels and the dead not written in the Lamb's book of Life.

U.S. Grant said:

The judgment event puts it in time, not eternity. . .with resurrected bodies of the righteous and the unrighteous living in time.

Agreed.

However, authoritative NT teaching locates the resurrection with the final judgment in the last day--no time afterwards.

Click to expand...

How then do you reconcile the 'First' Resurrection and a millennial reigning with Christ on earth afterward? This first resurrection coinciding with the judgment seat of Christ, that the saints will be judged in, and not at the great white throne.

Click to expand...

Well, prophecy is given in riddles (Numbers 12:8) and not clearly, so it is subject to more than one interpretation.
There is only one unchanging rule for interpreting prophetic riddles: all interpretion must be in agreement with authoritative NT teaching or Scripture contradicts itself.

So, I reconcile interpretation of prophetic riddles with NT teaching by changing the interpretation of the prophetic riddle to agree with NT teaching.

This makes for 2 different resurrections and judgment of God: first for the saints, then for the dead.

Click to expand...

Which is why the intepretation of prophecy, not the NT teaching, is in error.

The NT also locates the resurrection of the church with the new earth in Romans 8:19-21, where the revealing of the sons of God (resurrection) is located with the liberation of nature from decay (new earth), which is eternity, not time.

Click to expand...

That is a good reading, but not necessarily the only one:

Scripture prophecies of this earth during the reign of Christ to be 'redeemed' from the curse of the law and of death, where the sun shines brighter, and the lion lays down with the lamb. The creature, earth, would therefore no longer be unwillingly subject to vanity and bondage, which would be lifted with the first resurrection manifestations of the sons of God.

Click to expand...

NT teaching governs all understanding of the OT.

That prophetic riddle must be interpreted in agreement with NT teaching, not the NT teaching made to agree with interpretation of a prophetic riddle whose meaning is not certain. NT teaching must govern.

Doesn't NT teaching preclude such a reign in time (temporal)?

If the problem of 2 resurrections and judgments could be reconciled, with not time between them, then that would certainly be the case.

Click to expand...

The reconciliation must be achieved by change in interpretation of the prophetic riddle, whose meaning is not certain, by the very nature of it being a riddle, while NT teaching is certain and authoritative.

And what is most important to us anyway is the Scriptural basis for a current spiritual and ministerial reign of Christ on earth over His believers, and their resurrection, with glory revealed in their spiritual bodies to be seen by all angels and the dead not written in the Lamb's book of Life.

Click to expand...

Clare73 said:

The judgment event puts it in time, not eternity. . .with resurrected bodies of the righteous and the unrighteous living in time, not eternity.

However, authoritative NT teaching locates the resurrection with the final judgment in the last day--no time afterwards (John 6:39-40, 44, 54; 1 Corinthians 5:5, 1:8; Philippians 1:6, 10, 2:16; 1 Thessalonians 5:2-6), only eternity in the new heaven and new earth, the home of righteousness, which means there is no one outside the bride of Christ, the church, left on the earth.

The NT also locates the resurrection of the church with the new earth in Romans 8:19-21, where the revealing of the sons of God (resurrection) is located with the liberation of nature from decay (new earth), which is eternity, not time.

Doesn't NT teaching preclude such a reign in time (temporal)?

Click to expand...

However, authoritative NT teaching locates the resurrection with the final judgment in the last day--no time afterwards (John 6:39-40, 44, 54; 1 Corinthians 5:5, 1:8; Philippians 1:6, 10, 2:16; 1 Thessalonians 5:2-6)

There is one major problem with the first resurrection of the saints being at the end of this earth:

We are to meet Him in the air. Of this earth.

1 Thes 4:17 does not give a hint of meeting Him int he air of a new heaven and earth. Also, so shall we ever be with the Lord, does not mean in the air forever, but rather with Him forever, wheresoever He may be, whether in heaven or on earth.

There are also other possibilities for the Scriptures:
John 6: the last day of the last days of tribulation on earth, which end at the first resurrection.

We are currently in those last days, and there will be one last day of them in the future.

I Cor 5:5 this is the day of the Lord Jesus, as confirmed by Peter in Acts 2. Our soul and spirit is saved by the Lord, with us being dead to sin. The day of the Lord Jesus would also be confirmed at His coming in the air, and the first resurrection.

I Cor 1:8, Phillip 1:6,10, 2:16 in the end certainly applies to the end of our time on earth in mortal bodies, which goes to the grave. And then we will indeed have our day with the Lord in His presence. The day of the Lord also may certainly apply to our meeting with Him in the air at His appearing. (Col 3:4)(1 Peter 5:4)(1 John 3:2)

I John 2:28 makes it clear that His appearing will be with His 2nd coming to this earth (Heb 9:28):

And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.

Here is the main Scripture for the first resurrection being at the end of this earth:

But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

But then, how does this reconcile with the first resurrection followed by reigning with Him a thousand years on earth, which will then be consumed at the final battle on earth with fire coming down from God. (Rev 20:7-9)

Also, during that reign on earth, Satan will be bound and shut up in the bottomless pit, which certainly is not the case at this time.

Except of course, for the elect who have repented of their own works and are in the blessed rest of the day of the Lord, who will not be deceived by the dragon.

For them that are truly strong in the Scriptures, as Jesus was, Satan is indeed shut up for us, yet he still tempts the flesh, and so he is not bound in the bottomless pit at this time.

Clare73 said:

Well, prophecy is given in riddles (Numbers 12:8) and not clearly, so it is subject to more than one interpretation.

There is only one unchanging rule for interpreting prophetic riddles: all interpretion must be in agreement with authoritative NT teaching or Scripture contradicts itself.

So, I reconcile interpretation of prophetic riddles with NT teaching by changing the interpretation of the prophetic riddle to agree with NT teaching.

Which is why the intepretation of prophecy, not the NT teaching, is in error.
NT teaching governs all understanding of the OT.

That prophetic riddle must be interpreted in agreement with NT teaching, not the NT teaching made to agree with interpretation of a prophetic riddle whose meaning is not certain. NT teaching must govern.

The reconciliation must be achieved by change in interpretation of the prophetic riddle, whose meaning is not certain, by the very nature of it being a riddle, while NT teaching is certain and authoritative.

Click to expand...

NT teaching governs all understanding of the OT.

Well put. It is frustrating to try and discuss old prophecies with people who do not do so through the lens of NT Scriptures. They are trying to interpret prophesy with the vail of a fleshy promised seed over their eyes. It's like the death, burial, and resurrection of the God of Israel was just a blip on the greater screen of prophetic history.

All prophecy of Scripture is to be interpreted by NT teaching of Scripture from the apostles, who are greater than the prophets of old (Matthew 11:11), and did not know exactly what things they were looking into. (1 Peter 1:10-12)

And so, unless it can be shown that the First resurrection is in fact at the same time as the resurrection of the dead, then NT teaching allows for a literal reign of Christ over all this earth with His resurrected saints.

And in the spirit of only seeking the truth, there is one possibility:

The 'first' resurrection is that of the just, beginning with the dead in Christ, and them remaining alive rise with them into the air to meet with the Lord, followed immediately by the resurrection of the rest of the dead.

The problem of course being the next resurrection does not occur for a thousand years, with nations being gathered together for the final battle on this earth.

And so, that thousand years must become that day of the Lord, that is in fact one day of His saints with the Lord in the air, since a thousand years with Him is as one day.

Satan is bound in the pit immediately preceding the first resurrection, and is then loosed for a little season again. And while the resurrected saints are seen on thrones in the air, or in heaven, reigning with the Lord, Satan gathers in one day all nations together for the final battle, and fire from God consumes all them with the earth.

Then comes the resurrection of the dead at the end of that day, which is the last day of this heaven and earth.

U.S. Grant said:

However, authoritative NT teaching locates the resurrection with the final judgment in the last day--no time afterwards (John 6:39-40, 44, 54; 1 Corinthians 5:5, 1:8; Philippians 1:6, 10, 2:16; 1 Thessalonians 5:2-6)

Click to expand...

There is one major problem with the first resurrection of the saints being at the end of this earth:
1 Thes 4:17 does not give a hint of meeting Him int he air of a new heaven and earth.

Click to expand...

Correct. The new earth is not until after the resurrection/rapture/ coming and final judgment at the end of time, then comes the destruction of the old creation and the advent of the new creation, the home of righteousness.

Also, so shall we ever be with the Lord, does not mean in the air forever, but rather with Him forever, wheresoever He may be, whether in heaven or on earth.

Click to expand...

The one and only bodily resurrection occurs in time, in the last day, when the saints then meet the Lord in the air and return to earth with him (parousia--coming, where the citizens went out to meet an incoming dignitary and accompanied him back into the city) to judge the world in the final judgment, upon which follows eternity.

There are also other possibilities for the Scriptures:
John 6: the last day of the last days of tribulation on earth, which end at the first resurrection.

Click to expand...

"Last day" is nomenclature for the finl judgment.

We are currently in those last days, and where the last day is in the future and is the end of time.

Click to expand...

"Last days" (plural) refers to the whole NT time, "last day" (singular) refers to the final judgment.

I Cor 5:5 this is the day of the Lord Jesus, as confirmed by Peter in Acts 2. Our soul and spirit is saved by the Lord, with us being dead to sin. The day of the Lord Jesus would also be confirmed at His coming in the air, and the first resurrection.

I Cor 1:8, Phillip 1:6,10, 2:16 in the end certainly applies to the end of our time on earth in mortal bodies, which goes to the grave. And then we will indeed have our day with the Lord in His presence. The day of the Lord also may certainly apply to our meeting with Him in the air at His appearing. (Col 3:4)(1 Peter 5:4)(1 John 3:2)

Click to expand...

I John 2:28 makes it clear that His appearing will be with His 2nd coming to this earth (Heb 9:28):

And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.

Click to expand...

Yes, he appears when he is revealed in the second coming at the end of time.

Here is the main Scripture for the first resurrection being at the end of this earth:

But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

Click to expand...

But then, how does this reconcile with the first resurrection followed by reigning with Him a thousand years on earth,

Click to expand...

That scenario is a literal interpretation of the riddle of Revelation 20.
There are other figurative interpretations of Revelation 20 which are not in disagreement with NT teaching.

whch will then be consumed at the final battle on earth with fire coming down from God. (Rev 20:7-9).
Also, during that reign on earth, Satan will be bound and shut up in the bottomless pit, which certainly is not the case at this time.

Click to expand...

Keeping in mind your timeline is based in figurative prophetic riddles, which can be interpreted in more than one way.
Satan is bound now, but not in the pit. You have no idea what evil would look like if Satan were not bound now. He will be loosed near the end of time when literally all hell breaks loose from its bonds.

Except of course, for the elect who have repented of their own works and are in the blessed rest of the day of the Lord, who will not be deceived by the dragon.

Click to expand...

For them that are truly strong in the Scriptures, as Jesus was, Satan is indeed shut up for us, yet he still tempts the flesh, and so he is not bound in the bottomless pit at this time.

Click to expand...

Right, that is his eternal destiny at the end of time.

U.S. Grant said:

NT teaching governs all understanding of the OT.

Well put. It is frustrating to try and discuss old prophecies with people who do not do so through the lens of NT Scriptures. They are trying to interpret prophesy with the vail of a fleshy promised seed over their eyes. It's like the death, burial, and resurrection of the God of Israel was just a blip on the greater screen of prophetic history.

Click to expand...

All prophecy of Scripture is to be interpreted by NT teaching of Scripture from the apostles, who are greater than the prophets of old (Matthew 11:11), and did not know exactly what things they were looking into. (1 Peter 1:10-12)

Click to expand...

Do you know how rare today is your understanding of this?

And so, unless it can be shown that the First resurrection is in fact at the same time as the resurrection of the dead, then NT teaching allows for a literal reign of Christ over all this earth with His resurrected saints.
And in the spirit of only seeking the truth, there is one possibility:

Click to expand...

What a pleasure and a privilege to engage in this with you.

The 'first' resurrection is that of the just, beginning with the dead in Christ, and them remaining alive rise with them into the air to meet with the Lord, followed immediately by the resurrection of the rest of the dead.
The problem of course being the next resurrection

Click to expand...

does not occur for a thousand years, with nations being gathered together for the final battle on this earth.
And so, that thousand years must become that day of the Lord, that is in fact one day of His saints with the Lord in the air, since a thousand years with Him is as one day.
Satan is bound in the pit immediately preceding the first resurrection, and is then loosed for a little season again. And while the resurrected saints are seen on thrones in the air, or in heaven, reigning with the Lord, Satan gathers in one day all nations together for the final battle, and fire from God consumes all them with the earth.
Then comes the resurrection of the dead at the end of that day, which is the last day of this heaven and earth.

Click to expand...

Unless. . .Revelation is figurative rather than literal, and in Revelation 20
the "millennium" is figurative for the church age, and
the "first resurrection" is figurative for the resurrection of our spirits from eternal death into eternal life in the new birth, and
the millennial "reign of Christ" with his "resurrected saints" is figurative for the
born-again (resurrected into eternal life) church reigning with Christ now in the church age (Ephesians 1:20-23, Ephesians 2:6). . .
all in agreement with NT teaching.

Clare73 said:

Do you know how rare today is your understanding of this?
What a pleasure and a privilege to engage in this with you.

Unless. . .Revelation is figurative rather than literal, and in Revelation 20
the "millennium" is figurative for the church age, and
the "first resurrection" is figurative for the resurrection of our spirits from eternal death into eternal life in the new birth, and
the millennial "reign of Christ" with his "resurrected saints" is figurative for the
born-again (resurrected into eternal life) church reigning with Christ now in the church age (Ephesians 1:20-23, Ephesians 2:6). . .
all in agreement with NT teaching.

Click to expand...

Do you know how rare today is your understanding of this?

Yes I do. Which is why I was so glad to hear it put by you that way. The only problem remaining between us, is that we will inevitably agree on most things. I have found that responding to errors is the best learning curve of Scripture. If you have no errors, then how will I learn??

If you are willing I would like to test you on the preeminence of NT teaching and scriptures of the apostles vs that of the prophets. The prophets spoke of Jesus coming, and the apostles wrote of Jesus' rule after coming (Gal 6:16):

What is the difference between the law of Moses and the law of Christ, and exactly when did that change occur? (Heb 7:12)

U.S. Grant said:

Do you know how rare today is your understanding of this?

Yes I do. Which is why I was so glad to hear it put by you that way. The only problem remaining between us, is that we will inevitably agree on most things. I have found that responding to errors is the best learning curve of Scripture. If you have no errors, then how will I learn??

Click to expand...

If you are willing I would like to test you on the preeminence of NT teaching and scriptures of the apostles vs that of the prophets. The prophets spoke of Jesus coming, and the apostles wrote of Jesus' rule after coming (Gal 6:16):

Click to expand...

What is the difference between the law of Moses and the law of Christ, and exactly when did that change occur? (Heb 7:12)

Click to expand...

Should I know something about you first?

Not sure what your reference points are on this, but I suspect I can learn something from you regarding this.

I'll start with what they have in common.
Neither was given to make righteous; i.e, give right standing before God.
The law of Moses was given only to reveal sin.
The law of Christ was given for the Christian life, to which obedience in the Holy Spirit leads to the holiness of sanctification, without which no one will see the Lord (Hebrews 12:14).

But righteousness (right standing before God) has always been by faith only, apart from its works (Genesis 15:6).
The Decalogue is fulfilled in the law of Christ (Matthew 22:37-41), which leads to holiness.

I'll stop there. . .

Clare73 said:

Do you know how rare today is your understanding of this?
What a pleasure and a privilege to engage in this with you.

Unless. . .Revelation is figurative rather than literal, and in Revelation 20
the "millennium" is figurative for the church age, and
the "first resurrection" is figurative for the resurrection of our spirits from eternal death into eternal life in the new birth, and
the millennial "reign of Christ" with his "resurrected saints" is figurative for the
born-again (resurrected into eternal life) church reigning with Christ now in the church age (Ephesians 1:20-23, Ephesians 2:6). . .
all in agreement with NT teaching.

Click to expand...

Unless. . .Revelation is figurative rather than literal, and in Revelation 20 the "millennium" is figurative for the church age.

You've stolen my thunder. In context of 'amillennialism' I was already considering the first resurrection being the 'resurrection' of our souls from being dead in sin. The thrones of Rev 20, being the seats where we sit in heavenly places. The souls of them absent from the body being under or before the altar of God (Rev 6:9), which is in the temple of God, which is in heaven waiting to be opened for all to see. (Rev 11:19)

There is the temple of God and body of Christ on earth in natural bodies, and there is the temple and body of Christ in heaven waiting for the resurrection of the body, to be in the likeness of Christ's resurrection.

Also, them beheaded for the witness of Jesus, being all in the first resurrection, cannot be all physical, because not all the dead in Christ were beheaded as Paul.

Beheaded is only used in Rev 20, to speak of the manner of death of the saint in Christ: it is from the double-headed axe used of old for sacrifice to God. Beheading the old man of sin by the Word of God:

For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.

The chain (alusis) binding Satan is that which destroys (lusis) the works of the devil: the Word of God and manifestation of the Son of God (1 John 3:8). The two-edged sword of the Spirit either looses the believer from sin, or chains the unrepentant to their sins. It is by the same Word of Scripture that we pull down Satan from being the prince and power of the air around us on earth, to defeat his temptation and shut him up, even as Jesus did in the wilderness, which is where His church is in the world that lies in wickedness. (Rev 12)

The beast that makes war with the saints by the power and authority of the dragon (Rev 13) is ministerial warfare, because the weapons of our warfare are not carnal (2 Cor 10:4) (Eph 6:12). Such beasts as Paul fought in Ephesus (1 Cor 15:32), when they had him stoned for preaching the gospel of Jesus. They are false christs and antichrists that minister in the name of Jesus, but after the manner of men (Mark 10:41-44) and not for the glory of God and good of the saints (2 Cor 2:17)(1 Thess 2:13), many of which have already gone out from the apostles' doctrine (Acts 15:24)(1 John 2:19), purposely mishandling the Word (2 Cor 4:2)(1 John 1:1), to deceive even the elect if possible. (Matthew 24:24)

In Revelation the spiritual manifestation of all ministry of Scripture is revealed: it is the crown of Christ, where all Scriptures are the jewels necessary for interpretation of all prophesy of Scripture.

Whether it be to openly show the spiritual wickedness in high places from the depths of Satan, or to prophesy the spiritual glory of the everlasting gospel as preached from the midst of heaven.

This is what is overlooked by them that do not read prophecy, as you say, through the lens of NT teaching of Scripture. From chapter 5 through 19, it's all just 'end times' debates about Jews vs other nations of the earth, with beasts rising up in carnal warfare.

However, I believe there are two distinct places in Revelation that must be taken literally: the two dead witnesses in chapter 11, and the armies gathered at Armageddon to make war with the Lamb at His 2nd coming in the air. (Heb 9:28)(Rev 17:14, 19:16)

The resurrection of the saints is wedded to the Lord's appearing and coming as lightning, which Scripture assures us will be seen by them on this earth, even as Enoch prophesied. (Matthew 24:27-30)(Acts 1:11)(Jude 1:14)(Rev 1:7)

That must happen, else there is no literal truth of Scripture; therefore, it has to literally happen in that manner.