Rv20: Ez 37-38

Douggg · Oct 10, 2021

Just The Facts said:
Ya no it isn't........... it is the first resurrection. You refuse to accept that the House of Israel is now many nations people and tongues. That is your first error. An even bigger error is believing the House of Judah (IE:modern Israel but not in truth or righteousness) is the House of Israel it is not. Here is what God thinks of the Jews who take the name of Israel

The house of Israel is in many nations around the world. Who have not been gathered back into the land.

The modern nation of Israel is the rejoining of the two sticks representing the northern and southern kingdoms. But all of the house of Israel, every single person, has not been gathered back into the land of Israel.

Just The Facts said:
See only two.....All the good at the start and at the end all the evil.

No, not two, but three.

(1) Rapture/resurrection of them in Christ up to that time. Has to be before the 2Thessalonians2:4 act by the Antichrist of claiming to have achieved God-hood. Who will be the saints returning with Jesus.

(2) The first resurrection of the millennium, at its start, after the beast, false prophet, have been cast into the lake of fire, and Satan has been cast into the bottomless pit - of the great tribulation martyrs from all nations, not just Israel.

(3) The second resurrection, which is after the millennium is over, and Satan cast into the lake of fire, of everyone who did not participate in (1) or (2) for the great white throne judgment.

Douggg · Oct 10, 2021

Just The Facts said:
Hi Doug

Lets make sure we are talking about the same thing here. Who is your mind is Israel today?

The nation over there with its capital as Jerusalem, who identify themselves as a Jewish state. Which, geographically, is made up of the territories of the former northern and southern kingdoms. Which declared its nationhood in a single day in May 14, 1948.

House of Israel - is a different matter. It refers to the descendants of the twelve tribe's, many of whom still are in the nations.

Just The Facts · Oct 10, 2021

Hi Doug

Douggg said:
The nation over there with its capital as Jerusalem, who identify themselves as a Jewish state. Which, geographically, is made up of the territories of the former northern and southern kingdoms. Which declared its nationhood in a single day in May 14, 1948.

IE: Only the House of Judah ie: Judah Benjamín and Levi

Douggg said:
House of Israel - is a different matter. It refers to the descendants of the twelve tribe's, many of whom still are in the nations.

That is not correct it is the 8 tribes plus the two half tribes together called the Tribe of Joseph or the separately the Tribe of Manasseh and the Tribe of Ephraim ie:House of Isarel / Jacob and sometimes Ephraim

12:Then Joshua addressed the Reubenites, the Gadites, and the half-tribe of Manasseh.

That is why they are called the lost 10 tribes. Three tribes with Judah and 8 plus the two half tribes making the 10 Tribes of the House of Israel.

So when Ezekiel is defining the two sticks we see him state this very fact.

[16] "Son of man, take a stick and write on it, `For Judah, and the children of Israel associated with him'; then take another stick and write upon it, `For Joseph (the stick of E'phraim) and all the house of Israel associated with him';

[19] say to them, Thus says the Lord GOD: Behold, I am about to take the stick of Joseph (which is in the hand of E'phraim) and the tribes of Israel associated with him; and I will join with it the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, that they may be one in my hand.

Again in Jeremiah

33:24 Considerest thou not what this people have spoken, saying, The two families (two houses) which the LORD hath chosen, he hath even cast them off? thus they have despised my people, that they should be no more a nation before them.

In Isaiah

[14] And he will become a sanctuary, and a stone of offense, and a rock of stumbling to both houses of Israel, a trap and a snare to the inhabitants of Jerusalem.

[31] And the surviving remnant of the house of Judah shall again take root downward, and bear fruit upward;

Scripture is always very careful to distinguish between the two houses we should too,

[1] Hear this, O house of Jacob, who are called by the name of Israel, and who came forth from the loins of Judah;

And Jesus

[24] He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."

We know what he mean because he said this.

[38] Behold, your house is forsaken and desolate.

That is the House of Judah

and he said this

[43] Therefore I tell you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a nation producing the fruits of it."

IE the lost sheep of the House of Israel

My point is Scripture Always defines the two and we must be careful too as well.

Ok So now we are clear on this point.

Douggg said:
I wrote that the ones taking part in the first resurrection of the millennium are the martyred great tribulation saints, from all nations, not just Israel.

Well I never said they were I just said the two events Ez 37 and the Slain from the graves and Rv: 20 are the same event.

Our difference is I do not see that Rapture as a separate event. To me scripture is very clear Rapture happens when Jesus returns at the Last Trumpet which is the first resurrection.

This separation of the dead in Christ for OT saints makes no Sense. Is not Jesus God did not all who died in God's name by Defaut die in Jesus's name.

I do not believe either of us will change their mind on that point.

So is it your opinion that the Rapture is the event of Rv 20: and at sometime after that the rest of the Good dead are raised? or is it the other way The rapture happens first and the Rv 20: the resurrection of the Good / Just?

Douggg · Oct 10, 2021

Just The Facts said:
[38] Behold, your house is forsaken and desolate.

That is the House of Judah

Jesus was weeping over the near and long future of Jerusalem.

Douggg · Oct 10, 2021

Just The Facts said:
So is it your opinion that the Rapture is the event of Rv 20: and at sometime after that the rest of the Good dead are raised? or is it the other way The rapture happens first and the Rv 20: the resurrection of the Good / Just?

No. The rapture takes place between right this very second and the day that the Antichrist goes into the temple, sits, claims to have achieved God-hood, 2Thessalonians2:4.

I show the rapture/resurrection timing on this chart, shaded in blue. And to the right the resurrection of the martyred tribulation saints. And to the right of that, the resurrection of the rest of the dead.

Douggg · Oct 10, 2021

Just The Facts said:
This separation of the dead in Christ for OT saints makes no Sense. Is not Jesus God did not all who died in God's name by Defaut die in Jesus's name.

When Jesus's body was in the grave for three days, Jesus when into the place of the dead and preached the gospel, and to them who believed it, setting them there free for their souls to go to heaven. It would have included everyone who had died up to that point.

So the OT saints went to heaven from the place of dead. Being in Christ, they will take part in the rapture/resurrection event.

Just The Facts · Oct 10, 2021

Hi Douggg

Douggg said:
The rapture takes place between right this very second and the day that the Antichrist goes into the temple, sits, claims to have achieved God-hood

12:1 "At that time shall arise Michael, the great prince who has charge of your people. And there shall be a time of trouble, such as never has been since there was a nation till that time;

So clearly we have the great tribulation here would you agree?

Mt 24:21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be.

Jesus is referencing Daniel 12: would you agree?

Douggg · Oct 11, 2021

Just The Facts said:
Hi Douggg

12:1 "At that time shall arise Michael, the great prince who has charge of your people. And there shall be a time of trouble, such as never has been since there was a nation till that time;

So clearly we have the great tribulation here would you agree?

Mt 24:21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be.

Jesus is referencing Daniel 12: would you agree?

The unprecented time of trouble for Israel to occur at the time of the end lasts the time/times/half time of Daniel 12:7, and corresponds to Revelation 12:14, the time/times/half time which Satan will have left after being cast down to earth, by Michael and his angels.

Satan will incarnate the AoD statue image of the beast, that the false prophet has made and placed on the temple mount, making it appear to come alive and speak, which everyone will be required to worship or be put to death.

When Jesus returns, that AoD statue image will burst into flames and turned to ashes, exposing Satan in the flesh for all the world to see him, in Ezekiel 28:

13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.

14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.

15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.

17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.

18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.

19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.

Just The Facts · Oct 11, 2021

Hi Douggg

Douggg said:
The unprecented time of trouble for Israel to occur at the time of the end lasts the time/times/half time of Daniel 12:7, and corresponds to Revelation 12:14, the time/times/half time which Satan will have left after being cast down to earth, by Michael and his angels.

Ok so that is when you see it happening but is Dan 12:1 the same as Matt 24:21 regardless of when it happens?

Douggg · Oct 11, 2021

Just The Facts said:
Hi Douggg

Ok so that is when you see it happening but is Dan 12:1 the same as Matt 24:21 regardless of when it happens?

Yes.

Just The Facts · Oct 11, 2021

Hi Douggg

Douggg said:
Yes.

Just bare with me I am trying to get a broader understanding of how you see things connect.

So is Daniel 12:1 and Matt 24:21 the same event as this great Tribulation

[14] I said to him, "Sir, you know." And he said to me, "These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Douggg · Oct 11, 2021

Just The Facts said:
Hi Douggg

Just bare with me I am trying to get a broader understanding of how you see things connect.

So is Daniel 12:1 and Matt 24:21 the same event as this great Tribulation

[14] I said to him, "Sir, you know." And he said to me, "These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Revelation 7:14 are the souls of them who will be martyred during the great tribulation.

I just got through watching a you tube video on Adoph Hitler and how people almost worshiped him. It is hard to believe that such a person could rise from obscurity to become the epitome of evil, and
the cruelty he done to humanity, exterminating millions, with a look that will be like the beast of Revelation.

Just The Facts · Oct 11, 2021

Hi Douggg

Douggg said:
I just got through watching a you tube video on Adoph Hitler and how people almost worshiped him. It is hard to believe that such a person could rise from obscurity to become the epitome of evil, and
the cruelty he done to humanity, exterminating millions, with a look that will be like the beast of Revelation.

I am always surprised by people who say that such things could never happen today. Look at Trump, not saying he is Hitler or anything even close, or even bad for that matter (everyone has their opinion different opinions do not make people evil) but many almost worship Trump, and would believe anything he said, and do anything he told them to do. Now put that power times 1000 with religious Ferber in the hands of an Evil Man and the Great Tribulation is easy to See. Back to the subject at hand.

Jez'ebel The prophetess of Baal, Queen of Israel, Princesses of Tyre who converted The Northern Kingdom of Israel to worship of Baal.

Ok so how about this is this the same Great Tribulation?

[20] But I have this against you, that you tolerate the woman Jez'ebel, who calls herself a prophetess and is teaching and beguiling my servants to practice immorality and to eat food sacrificed to idols. [21] I gave her time to repent, but she refuses to repent of her immorality. [22] Behold, I will throw her on a sickbed, and those who commit adultery with her I will throw into great tribulation, unless they repent of her doings;[23] and I will strike her children dead. And all the churches shall know that I am he who searches mind and heart, and I will give to each of you as your works deserve.

Douggg · Oct 11, 2021

Just The Facts said:
Ok so how about this is this the same Great Tribulation?

No. it is an allegory for the church not to be lead astray by women teaching false doctrines.

Just The Facts · Oct 11, 2021

Hi Douggg

Douggg said:
No. it is an allegory for the church not to be lead astray by women teaching false doctrines.

Ok, I disagree but that is irrelevant. I will get into why I disagree another time. For now lets just keep going so I can link how you see this.

Ok so the Great Multitude Rv 7:14 are killed in Daniel 12:1 and Matt 24:21

Is this them too?

[9] And another angel, a third, followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If any one worships the beast and its image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, [10] he also shall drink the wine of God's wrath, poured unmixed into the cup of his anger, and he shall be tormented with fire and sulphur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. [11] And the smoke of their torment goes up for ever and ever; and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name." [12] Here is a call for the endurance of the saints, those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus. [13] And I heard a voice from heaven saying, "Write this: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord henceforth." "Blessed indeed," says the Spirit, "that they may rest from their labors, for their deeds follow them!"

tranquil · Oct 12, 2021

Just The Facts said:
Hi

Ezekiel 37 & 38 and Revelation 20 are the same events.

Rev 20 is the short form of Ezekiel 37 and 38.

Let’s take a look

Rv 20:4: And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Rv 21:2: And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3: And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

Isaiah describes it like this

Isa 2:2: And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. 3: And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. 4: And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

Rv:21:24: And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.

There is the first resurrection in Rv 20 & 21 and Holy Jerusalem out of Heaven…..Now as we all know this is after Armageddon. WHICH IS NOT the battle of Gog and Magog because Rv:20 is a running time line and it tells us Gog is after the 1,000 years of peace.

Below is the first resurrection in Ezekiel 37:

Ezekiel 37: 12: Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel. 13: And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves, 14: And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken it, and performed it, saith the LORD

I love how God knows the false doctrine that will be introduced. So he says over and over and over and over again OUT OF YOUR GRAVES. You can spiritualize this all you want and say no no no no this is a spiritual grave they are coming out of …………….….God is very, very, very, very clear OUT OF YOUR GRAVES. God is so adamant he says it 4 times in two verses.

Ezekiel 37:26: Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore.27: My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 28: And the heathen shall know that I the LORD do sanctify Israel, when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore.

These verses are clearly the First resurrection and as we mover through these parallel chapters of RV: and Ezekiel you will see there can be no doubt they are the same events.

Rev 20: 6: Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

So what we have is those of the first resurrection living in Jerusalem for 1000 years in Peace after Jesus RESTORES the land from the devastation of Armageddon and the plagues of Rv: chapters 7-16.

Rev 20: 7: And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,8: And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

Now Revelation Tells us that at the end of the 1000 years Gog will gather to come down on the city of the Saints.

So does Ezekiel also this is what happens next

Ezekiel 38: 2: Son of man, set thy face against Gog, the land of Magog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal, and prophesy against him, 3: And say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold I am against thee, O Gog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal:………………………………………….8: After many days thou shalt be visited: in the latter years thou shalt come into the land that is brought back from the sword, and is gathered out of many people, against the mountains of Israel, which have been always waste: but it is brought forth out of the nations, and they shall dwell safely all of them.

Ezekiel above also notes the time spoken of in Revelation where people of all Tribes and Nations are gathered and reign with Jesus in Jerusalem. Directly referring to the area as the land restored from war. Where the people live in Peace…………….that is the 1000 years of peace.

Ezek:38:11: And thou shalt say, I will go up to the land of unwalled villages; I will go to them that are at rest, that dwell safely, all of them dwelling without walls, and having neither bars nor gates,

This is not modern Israel. Once again I love how God knows the false doctrine that will be introduced. So he says over and over again Without walls dwelling safely in Peace. Does anyone really believe that is modern Israel. Modern Israel has more walls then any other nation . Living in Peace ......I guess if having rockets falling on you and having a major war or conflict every 10 years is living safely and dwelling in peace.

Ezekiel goes on to say this

14: Therefore, son of man, prophesy and say unto Gog, Thus saith the Lord GOD; In that day when my people of Israel dwelleth safely, shalt thou not know it? 15: And thou shalt come from thy place out of the north parts, thou, and many people with thee, all of them riding upon horses, a great company, and a mighty army:

Now some would try and say that no this is just about Israel because it says my people Israel. But Paul is very clear in more than one place ……we become sons of Abraham and Heirs to the promise we become part of Israel as we are grafted into Israel.

Now Revelation 20 States the following

7: And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, 8: And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. 9: And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

Rev 20 Says that fire will come down from Heaven and devour Gog and his armies.

So does Ezekiel also say this same thing…………Of course it does they are the same events.

Ezekiel 38:2: And I will plead against him with pestilence and with blood; and I will rain upon him, and upon his bands, and upon the many people that are with him, an overflowing rain, and great hailstones, fire, and brimstone.

There is a false teaching that the formation of modern Israel is Ezekiel 37 fulfilled. IT IS NOT………….Ezekiel 37 is the First resurrection. What this false belief does that is sooooo dangerous is it makes one expect the wrong prophetic event to happen next.

If a person believes that Ezekiel 37 is being fulfilled in the current gathering of the Jews in modern Israel …………..then by default that person MUST also believe that if nations come against Modern Israel God will destroy them with fire from heaven. This is a give in because the two events are linked in Ezekiel 37 and 38…………..

This is the exact event that the AC will use to deceive the world that he is God. Look at Rev

13: 13: And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men, 14: And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast;

As we can plainly see it is this Great Wonder of Fire from Heaven that deceives mankind into believing he The Beast is God / Jesus

Paul also tells us this Great Wonder will Happen AT HIS ARRIVAL ……………..not after many years of him as a Political leader but at his Arrival.

[9] The coming of the lawless one by the activity of Satan will be with all power and with pretended signs and wonders,

Can you see Satan’s Deception in action………can you see his devious plan to deceive mankind in the works………………….Do not be fooled Ezekiel 37 is the First Resurrection not the gathering of the Jews into modern Israel. Such false Doctrine has been introduced by Satan to lead mankind to destruction and ruin. Do not be fooled

Well, that is the real question: when does the 2 sticks prophecy happen in relation to the Gog war. We don't know because there isn't enough information. It's implied at various points but it is too open ended.

aspects of the Gog war:

gathered then Gog war (is this the 2 sticks gathering then Gog war? If so, then the Gog war happens after Armageddon, the 6th Bowl war) (or is this just a gathering of DNA 12 tribes 'Israel' in the literal land of Israel)

are the slain are killed by Gog? Then they are 'resurrected' and the 2 sticks are joined when Gog is judged at the 6th Trumpet, with the False Prophet killing Gog (the False Prophet being the individual that is joining the 2 horns/ 2 sticks).

What war is Israel recovering from? The 6 day war, the 6th Trumpet war? We don't know.

I am content in believing that all the various permutations of meaning are expressed in Revelation.

This is how I understand these permutations.

Abomination of desolation causes God’s wrath and starts the great tribulation. (In the middle of the 70th to 77th year of Jerusalem’s desolations Daniel 9:2 & Daniel 9:27.)

Gog attacks & Israel is scattered (means the ‘woman goes into the wilderness’). (Gog is the ‘ruler of Persia’ & 21 days later the ‘ruler of Greece’ (the Daniel 8 Little Horn, aka the king of Tyre, attacks) (Daniel 10:13-21). This army is the ‘people of the prince to come’ & are the ‘locusts’ of Joel 1-3 and the 5th Trumpet of Revelation that are ‘devouring Israel’ and ‘selling them into spiritual & physical slavery’.

5 months after the abomination, Gog is defeated via ‘fire from heaven’ from the False Prophet (the king of Assyria) at the 6th Trumpet. (5 months + 7 months to clean up bodies = the ‘Day of the Lord’, 1 year). This is the start of the beast from the sea & earth. After ‘Israel’ is ‘scattered’ (Jezreel means ‘God sows/ scatters seed’), then Israel and Judah are gathered by the 2 sticks king (the 2 horned False Prophet).

When Gog is defeated, the nations will worship ‘God’. They receive a ‘covenant of peace’ and the sanctuary will be placed in Israel (Ezekiel 37:24-27). These items correspond to the angel with the rainbow (symbol of God’s covenant) after the ‘flood’ of war lasting 5 months in Revelation 10:1 and the outer court being given over to the Gentiles in Revelation 11:2.

The beast is killed after a ‘season & a time’ (the hour, day, month, year prepared to kill a third of mankind in the 6th Trumpet), leaving roughly 2 ½ years for ‘Israel’ to live in peace and ‘recover from war’ (although they are unrepentant – Revelation 9:20-21).

Mystery Babylon breaks the covenant of peace in the middle of 7 years at the 7th Trumpet, triggering the 6th bowl war Armageddon. Gog attacks ‘a land recovered from war’ (ie the 6th Trumpet war). The nations see God’s glory displayed and worship God, starting the ‘kingdom of heaven’.

After being gathered under Jesus, at the 7th Trumpet, Israel is attacked after the 1000 years of peace by Gog.

jamiec · Oct 14, 2021

keras said:
Ezekiel 37:1-14 is an allegory of how the people from the House of Israel, who are now the Christian peoples from every tribe, race, nation and language and are the ones that Jesus came to save, Matthew 15:24
WE were the dry bones, scattered among the nations and the Gospel was preached to us and we accepted it. Isaiah 45:4-6....we did not know the Lord...

The Lord has put His Spirit into us; we have come to life in the Spirit and soon we will go to live in all of the holy Land; our inheritance. Isaiah 35, Isaiah 62:1-5, Romans 9:24-26

Ezekiel 38 and 39, describe an attack on the new Christian nation of Beulah, which the Lord will wipe out as He fulfils His Promise to protect us. Joel 2:20

ISTM that Ezekiel 37 is behind the famous passage in St Matthew 27.51-53.

The “breath” of v.9 = the Holy Spirit
the “opening of the graves” of v.13 = happened at the Death of Christ, when He gave up His “breath/Spirit” to the Father.
the “two sticks” of vv.15-21 = the Cross of Christ
“My servant David” as shepherd in v.24 = Christ

Rv20: Ez 37-38

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