Heaven is right here, not somewhere else and the nature of God

honey badger · Oct 14, 2021

Animal2692 said:
I've always asked myself, "Who am I underneath all labels and forms?"

I'm saying Jesus knew he was God, he was awake to it. I don't know when he woke up to that realization or if he even had to wake up to it. He was unique for sure because he knew that. That's why I think humanity is just pretending to be something else other than God and it's up to us to wake up and see what Jesus saw as well.

I've always asked myself, "Who am I underneath this form and labels?" I call myself a person, but that's just an idea. Someone had to invent the concept of 'person'. Or any other word for that matter. When I look at a tree, there is just the isness of it, the experience that I am one with it. And then my mind comes in and says, "That is a tree." I think there's a difference between conceptual reality and what is existential.

Jesus explains this "other" we are not in his dialogue with the women at the well ....

BNR32FAN · Oct 14, 2021

Animal2692 said:
I've always asked myself, "Who am I underneath all labels and forms?"

I'm saying Jesus knew he was God, he was awake to it. I don't know when he woke up to that realization or if he even had to wake up to it. He was unique for sure because he knew that. That's why I think humanity is just pretending to be something else other than God and it's up to us to wake up and see what Jesus saw as well.

I've always asked myself, "Who am I underneath this form and labels?" I call myself a person, but that's just an idea. Someone had to invent the concept of 'person'. Or any other word for that matter. When I look at a tree, there is just the isness of it, the experience that I am one with it. And then my mind comes in and says, "That is a tree." I think there's a difference between conceptual reality and what is existential.

We all have different names, bodies, thoughts, opinions. But we all use the word "I". Before we say we are John or a human being, we have to first exist. So it's fair to say that we all share the same 'I'. One awareness, one self. That one self, is God. The isness of all things, the I am of you and me.

I don’t think that lines up very accurately with all scripture for many many reasons my friend. We can see countless examples of differences between man and God in the scriptures. God created man in His image, we didn’t exist in the beginning, we are not perfect, we were at enmity against God, we constantly transgress against God, these are just a few examples right off the top of my head. I’m sure there’s more compelling evidence that man is not God in the scriptures than what I’ve provided here.

BNR32FAN · Oct 14, 2021

honey badger said:
Jesus explains this "other" we are not in his dialogue with the women at the well ....

What verse are you referring to?

honey badger · Oct 14, 2021

BNR32FAN said:
What verse are you referring to?

John 4:7-19

Animal2692 · Oct 14, 2021

BNR32FAN said:
I don’t think that lines up very accurately with all scripture for many many reasons my friend. We can see countless examples of differences between man and God in the scriptures. God created man in His image, we didn’t exist in the beginning, we are not perfect, we were at enmity against God, we constantly transgress against God, these are just a few examples right off the top of my head. I’m sure there’s more compelling evidence than what I’ve provided here.

For God and man, I have an analogy. Take the wave on the ocean. The wave may seem like it is separate from the ocean, but it cannot be separated from the ocean.

BNR32FAN said:
I don’t think that lines up very accurately with all scripture for many many reasons my friend. We can see countless examples of differences between man and God in the scriptures. God created man in His image, we didn’t exist in the beginning, we are not perfect, we were at enmity against God, we constantly transgress against God, these are just a few examples right off the top of my head. I’m sure there’s more compelling evidence that man is not God in the scriptures than what I’ve provided here.

Yes and what I'm getting at is that there is a difference between scriptures and direct experience. Scriptures to me are just pointers to what is real, but the pointers themselves are not real. Scriptures say God is separate from man, and man did not exist from the beginning. My direct experience however shows me that I have always existed. I have never had the experience of not existing. My form is temporary but my 'I amness' is not. My direct experience shows me that there are no boundaries or lines separating me from everything else, that I am one with all. When we look at the world with our finite mind, we see a multiplicity of different objects, people, etc. But when I look at the world with my heart, I see myself everything and as everything. There is a oneness to everything despite all the different concepts and labels.

To me a scripture is like the menu at a restaurant. It points to the different types of foods, yet the menu itself is not the real thing. I don't think that any amount of scripture, book, or words can encapsulate truth because the truth is free.

BNR32FAN · Oct 14, 2021

honey badger said:
John 4:7-19

Yes I already looked there but I don’t understand what your referring to.

BNR32FAN · Oct 14, 2021

Animal2692 said:
For God and man, I have an analogy. Take the wave on the ocean. The wave may seem like it is separate from the ocean, but it cannot be separated from the ocean.

Yes and what I'm getting at is that there is a difference between scriptures and direct experience. Scriptures to me are just pointers to what is real, but the pointers themselves are not real. Scriptures say God is separate from man, and man did not exist from the beginning. My direct experience however shows me that I have always existed. I have never had the experience of not existing. My form is temporary but my 'I amness' is not. My direct experience shows me that there are no boundaries or lines separating me from everything else, that I am one with all. When we look at the world with our finite mind, we see a multiplicity of different objects, people, etc. But when I look at the world with my heart, I see myself everything and as everything. There is a oneness to everything despite all the different concepts and labels.

To me a scripture is like the menu at a restaurant. It points to the different types of foods, yet the menu itself is not the real thing.

But there are boundaries because you have no perception of anything before you were born. Before that there was no “I” for you or anyone else.

BNR32FAN · Oct 14, 2021

Animal2692 said:
For God and man, I have an analogy. Take the wave on the ocean. The wave may seem like it is separate from the ocean, but it cannot be separated from the ocean.

Yes and what I'm getting at is that there is a difference between scriptures and direct experience. Scriptures to me are just pointers to what is real, but the pointers themselves are not real. Scriptures say God is separate from man, and man did not exist from the beginning. My direct experience however shows me that I have always existed. I have never had the experience of not existing. My form is temporary but my 'I amness' is not. My direct experience shows me that there are no boundaries or lines separating me from everything else, that I am one with all. When we look at the world with our finite mind, we see a multiplicity of different objects, people, etc. But when I look at the world with my heart, I see myself everything and as everything. There is a oneness to everything despite all the different concepts and labels.

To me a scripture is like the menu at a restaurant. It points to the different types of foods, yet the menu itself is not the real thing. I don't think that any amount of scripture, book, or words can encapsulate truth because the truth is free.

You deleted the last portion of your post that suggests that the scriptures are not genuine. So this is mostly deriving from your own personal beliefs not what the word of God has told us.

honey badger · Oct 14, 2021

BNR32FAN said:
Yes I already looked there but I don’t understand what your referring to.

you have to view it as a parable to see it ...

Animal2692 · Oct 14, 2021

BNR32FAN said:
But there are boundaries because you have no perception of anything before you were born. Before that there was no “I” for you or anyone else.

And birth is a concept. Same with time. When I don't think about time, my experience is just timeless. The present moment is timeless. It is not a moment in time, all time occurs now. I can't find a beginning or end to 'right now'. Consciousness is always right now, it transcends time and space altogether. It may seem like today began and there will be tomorrow. But when you wake up tomorrow, is it still not right now? 20 years ago, it was still right 'now'. I liken consciousness to God since it has no limits and it's the one 'thing' scientists can never study as an object. Without consciousness or awareness, I could not know anything. Even the word 'brain' is a concept appearing in consciousness, same with the word 'consciousness'.

honey badger · Oct 14, 2021

Animal2692 said:
And birth is a concept. Same with time. When I don't think about time, my experience is just timeless. The present moment is timeless. It is not a moment in time, all time occurs now. I can't find a beginning or end to 'right now'. Consciousness is always right now, it transcends time and space altogether. It may seem like today began and there will be tomorrow. But when you wake up tomorrow, is it still not right now? 20 years ago, it was still right 'now'. I liken consciousness to God since it has no limits and it's the one 'thing' scientists can never study as an object. Without consciousness or awareness, I could not know anything. Even the word 'brain' is a concept appearing in consciousness, same with the word 'consciousness'.

in relation to consciousness, past and future can be seen as two thieves which rob us of the present moment ...

Animal2692 · Oct 14, 2021

honey badger said:
in relation to consciousness, past and future can be seen as two thieves which rob us of the present moment ...

Exactly! I think it's due to our developed mental capacity to conceptualize. Someone once said, "The mind is a beautiful servant, but a terrible master." The mind is finite, it is seen as an object. The seeing itself or consciousness is not finite, it can never be seen because it has no shape or form. God has no shape or form. I always wanted to move beyond belief to realization. Belief could never fulfill me because belief automatically comes with the possibility of doubt.

Who is it that knows that you are thinking?

honey badger · Oct 14, 2021

Animal2692 said:
Exactly! I think it's due to our developed mental capacity to conceptualize. Someone once said, "The mind is a beautiful servant, but a terrible master." The mind is finite, it is seen as an object. The seeing itself or consciousness is not finite, it can never be seen because it has no shape or form. God has no shape or form. I always wanted to move beyond belief to realization. Belief could never fulfill me because belief automatically comes with the possibility of doubt.

Who is it that knows that you are thinking?

the process we be in teaches us who we are by who we are not ... a comparison between two, just like how darkness defines light and visa versa .. the whole book speaks to this ... the two witnesses being referenced in the very first verse ...

BNR32FAN · Oct 14, 2021

Animal2692 said:
And birth is a concept. Same with time. When I don't think about time, my experience is just timeless. The present moment is timeless. It is not a moment in time, all time occurs now. I can't find a beginning or end to 'right now'. Consciousness is always right now, it transcends time and space altogether. It may seem like today began and there will be tomorrow. But when you wake up tomorrow, is it still not right now? 20 years ago, it was still right 'now'. I liken consciousness to God since it has no limits and it's the one 'thing' scientists can never study as an object. Without consciousness or awareness, I could not know anything. Even the word 'brain' is a concept appearing in consciousness, same with the word 'consciousness'.

Consciousness can appear that way but only from the individual’s point of view. You can see someone else lose conscience, you can see they’re not conscious when they’re sleeping and you can keep track of the time they are out of consciousness. Also you can only perceive consciousness in one place at any given moment, so it doesn’t transcend time or space. What your saying can be compared to the saying that a tree that falls in the forest with no one around doesn’t make a sound or the refrigerator light doesn’t actually turn off when you close the door or the world only exists as far as you can see. Just because you yourself can’t perceive it doesn’t mean it’s not happening.

friend of · Oct 14, 2021

Animal2692 said:
Jesus himself though was not the kind of man he was as a result of choosing Jesus Christ as his personal savior. I see Jesus as someone who woke up to the realization that he is God and it's also up to us to wake up to the same realization. I think Jesus saw things as an eastern mystic does and then people turned it into a religion called Christianity. Jesus, Buddha, Krishna, etc. Were all on the same page but had their own way of describing their realization.

Okay. That's not Christianity then.

Animal2692 · Oct 14, 2021

BNR32FAN said:
Consciousness can appear that way but only from the individual’s point of view. You can see someone else lose conscience, you can see they’re not conscious when they’re sleeping and you can keep track of the time they are out of consciousness. Also you can only perceive consciousness in one place at any given moment, so it doesn’t transcend time or space. What your saying can be compared to the saying that a tree that falls in the forest with no one around doesn’t make a sound or the refrigerator light doesn’t actually turn off when you close the door or the world only exists as far as you can see. Just because you yourself can’t perceive it doesn’t mean it’s not happening.

You are still conscious when you are asleep. Sleep is not the absence of awareness, it is the awareness of absence. How is it that after you wake up you can say whether there was nothing there or that you had a dream? You had to have been aware the whole time. We confuse the waking state for being conscious. There is a difference between consciousness and the focusing of it. Consciousness never moves. The mind comes and goes, perceptions come and go. When you turn a movie off, does the screen disappear?

You said consciousness does not transcend time and space. So in that case, where is 'here & now'? Whether I am in Europe, Australia, or America, I am always here. Here & now is not a location in time and space. It is the eternity of consciousness.

Here's an experiment. If I ask you "Are you aware of your left foot?" You have to direct your attention to it. But what if I simply were to ask you, "Are you aware?" What do you have to do with your attention to answer "Yes, I am aware"?

honey badger · Oct 14, 2021

consciousness seeds itself, its ability is to create something out of nothing ...

Animal2692 · Oct 14, 2021

honey badger said:
consciousness seeds itself, its ability is to create something out of nothing ...

We assume that consciousness shares the limits of the body, that we are located inside our body. But our body is an appearance. If consciousness were able to die, consciousness would have to be present in order to say that. So if consciousness can't die, then it wasn't born either. We know of God because of consciousness, it knows itself.

You've probably heard of "I am that I am." Or 'I am' being the name of God. I think God's being shines in our minds as the knowledge, 'I am'.

honey badger · Oct 14, 2021

Animal2692 said:
We assume that consciousness shares the limits of the body, that we are located inside our body. But our body is an appearance. If consciousness were able to die, consciousness would have to be present in order to say that. So if consciousness can't die, then it wasn't born either.

You've probably heard of "I am that I am." Or I am being the name of God. I think God's being shines in each and every one of us as the knowledge, 'I am'.

the reason God has no name is the same reason He can not be measured, having no beginning or end ... it is the natural mind which measures/names everything ...

and yes we are at one with our Father, its only by perception we perceive ourselves as being separate/divided from Him ... but this not out of order but of process ...

Animal2692 · Oct 14, 2021

honey badger said:
the reason God has no name is the same reason He can not be measured, having no beginning or end ... it is the natural mind which measures/names everything ...

and yes we are at one with our Father, its only by perception we perceive ourselves as being separate/divided from Him ... but this not out of order but of process ...

You couldn't of put it better. In fact what you said, is by the grace of God. Not many people in this world have come that close, and I'm saying that out of compassion for them.

When we say God is separate, I think it's incomplete. It would later need to be collapsed or else we go on looking and searching. God cannot be seen or known because God is the seeing and knowing itself. It's too close. A knife can cut other things but it cannot cut itself.

I think what is really meant by sin is to take ourselves to be a cluster of thoughts, feelings, and perceptions. And then we wonder why we suffer.

Heaven is right here, not somewhere else and the nature of God

i am

He’s a Way of life

He’s a Way of life

i am

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He’s a Way of life

He’s a Way of life

He’s a Way of life

i am

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i am

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i am

He’s a Way of life

A private in Gods army

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